The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jul 2011 15:46

komal wrote:The initial curtailment of Glass Steagall happend under Ronald Wilson Reagan (who dedicated a space shuttle to the ISI sponsored 'freedom fighters'). The final repeal was called the Graham Leach Biley Act (all Rebublicans).

To blame it all on Bill Clinton is not only a lie but plays into the the hands of those who were generous with our tax dollars to the ISI

The whole question of "blame" itself is an ex post facto exercise...It would be OT here, but the whole repealing of Glass Seagall was done, when it was, with solid rationale...The explanation would be long and waaay OT here, but it was arguably one big reason for the massive reduction in the cost of capital in the US for 2 decades thereafter..Which in turn spawned the hi-tech era and a generation of prosperity...

Today, in the aftermath of the crisis, regulators and law makers are not reversing the clock, but finetuning it...In the new world, pure-play investment banks have voluntarily become "commercial banks" (instead of commercial banks being forced to hive off their investment banks), but are simultaeneously having to hive off their more risky trading activities out of their banking core...

The lessons from this is symptomatic of most paradigms - they need to be constantly modified to keep pace with the times..

In the Indian context, a lesson that can be derived is almost tautological - 20th century, in some cases 19th century laws cannot take care of 21st century issues....the Land Acquisition law, the Police Act are all examples of that....Similarly, Lokpal arguably would not be required if the CBI Act gave sufficient powers to CBI and built safeguards around its independence...

Having said that, it is illustrative to go through the relevant legislations in other countries - of anti-corruption Ombudsmen...Mostly in Europe - I had given some linkes some time back...By all accounts, the Lokpal Bill as it is today is pretty much in line with the European legislations...

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 09 Jul 2011 17:22

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?727202

Willing to Face Bullets for Agitation: Hazare

Lashing out at the government for criticizing civil society activists, Gandhian Anna Hazare today vowed to continue with the proposed August 16 agitation despite "threats" to "crush" it, saying he was willing "to face bullets and not just lathis".

Pointing that laws like Right to Information were enacted because of the pressure of civil society, Hazare said, "If this (pressure on Government over Lokpal) amounts to blackmail, I am willing to resort to blackmail through out my life."

The activist said he was unperturbed by the veiled threat that his proposed agitation at Jantar Mantar in Delhi will be disrupted.

"They say the agitation will be crushed like Baba Ramdev's. Is this the Congress of Mahatma Gandhi and Kamraj? This is not democracy, but dictatorship. I am willing to face bullets and not just lathis."

Hazare justified the civil society pressure on Government to enact a strong Lokpal Bill, saying it is only with the people's pressure that those in power will bow down.

"When the Government does not work as per expectations, people's pressure is bound to mount. The Lokpal bill had been brought in Parliament eight times, but nothing has come out of it.

"When corrupt Ministers and bureaucrats go to jail, corruption will stop as it will send a stern message to the society at large," he said.

The veteran anti-corruption activist maintained that he has never said he did not believe in Parliamentary democracy. "The need of the hour was to change the perception that politics is for power and money. Lokpal will help effect that change."

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 09 Jul 2011 21:46

M/S Hazare & co have been made jokers by INC, the number of people taking them or their fast seriously is dwindling by the day aided majorly by the good policeman acts(arresting one peripheral politican after other) of the Congis . Hazare & co were good at Shock and Awe but the Congis quickly covered ground and engaged in endless chai-biscoot sessions tiring the hell out of the civil society, they might even make them uncivil in the days to come. Good going Congis hope you apply the Chai-biscoot sessions more liberally and ruthlessly with the Porkis

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 09 Jul 2011 21:58

What the majority wants always eventually takes place.Everything gets watered down to its sea level. Hazare came as a surprise, and has been outsmarted temporarily.The focus should now be on making an example of how a corrupt minister should be punished - I am referring to Raja and Kalmadi.It is time that the congress weed out its tall congress grass growing all over its camp.Kick out the old guard, usher in the new young politicians. I guess Rahul is rearing to kick some butt within his own party.He has to just look around,Raja,Kalmadi,PC,Sibal,Pranab and Digvijay.They all need infusion of youth energy on their six (most fliers would understand six but for others it means butt).

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Jul 2011 21:59

Why are they quoting BR now? Why didn't they pull out of talks when Ramlila incident happen. So they turn dharmic only when they are threatened.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Jul 2011 22:00

Sanjeevpunj

Who is Rahul? What can he do? What authority he have?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 09 Jul 2011 22:01

RamaY wrote:Sanjeevpunj

Who is Rahul? What can he do? What authority he have?

Rahul is the only hope for the dynasty that Congress represents. Let him also do his best (or worst).

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Jul 2011 22:15

sanjeevpunj wrote:
RamaY wrote:Sanjeevpunj

Who is Rahul? What can he do? What authority he have?
Rahul is the only hope for the dynasty that Congress represents. Let him also do his best (or worst).

He will give UP to Maya ji again like he did it for Nitish in Bihar. CON Party has no hopes.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Jul 2011 22:16

suryag wrote:M/S Hazare & co have been made jokers by INC, the number of people taking them or their fast seriously is dwindling by the day aided majorly by the good policeman acts(arresting one peripheral politican after other) of the Congis . Hazare & co were good at Shock and Awe but the Congis quickly covered ground and engaged in endless chai-biscoot sessions tiring the hell out of the civil society, they might even make them uncivil in the days to come. Good going Congis hope you apply the Chai-biscoot sessions more liberally and ruthlessly with the Porkis

+1

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 09 Jul 2011 22:34

chaanakya wrote: He will give UP to Maya ji again like he did it for Nitish in Bihar. CON Party has no hopes.

It looks like a game plan, I wonder if it will work out this time.We can only wait and see.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 10 Jul 2011 08:35

chaanakya wrote: He will give UP to Maya ji again like he did it for Nitish in Bihar. CON Party has no hopes.

That is fine too. Congress party has a fine multi-layered coalitions

Layer-1 DMK, NCP, TMC, Others (NE and miniscules)
Layer-2 SP or Maya as needed, Laloo, Paswan
Layer-3 ADMK, Nitish, Naveen, TRS, Jagan and also Left

The realistic opposition of congress party from across the nation are only three parties- BJP, TDP and Shiv Sena. The strategy is while losing the elections due to scams etc, it is important for them that their loss should be a win in Layer-2 and Layer-3 parties. The more they can transfer from BJP,TDP and SHS to these Layer-2, Layer-3 they are further better off. The problem comes only if they go less than 130 LS seats. They had successfully entrapped NCP, SP, Maya, DMK, TRS, Laloo & Paswan via scams and loot.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 10 Jul 2011 09:01

Hazare appeals for blackout on Aug 16 - http://www.hindustantimes.com/Hazare-ap ... 19428.aspx

With just over a month to go for his proposed indefinite strike in support for a stronger Lokpal Bill, activist Anna Hazare on Saturday announced a countrywide blackout on August 16, the day his fast begins. Appealing to citizens across the country to support what he called "the second war for independence", Hazare said everyone should switch off lights between 8pm and 9pm on that day and come out on the streets in support of the Jan Lokpal bill, the civil society version of the contentious draft legislation.

devaraj_d · Post by **devaraj_d** » 10 Jul 2011 14:29

Muppalla wrote:
chaanakya wrote: He will give UP to Maya ji again like he did it for Nitish in Bihar. CON Party has no hopes.
That is fine too. Congress party has a fine multi-layered coalitions

Layer-1 DMK, NCP, TMC, Others (NE and miniscules)
Layer-2 SP or Maya as needed, Laloo, Paswan
Layer-3 ADMK, Nitish, Naveen, TRS, Jagan and also Left

The realistic opposition of congress party from across the nation are only three parties- BJP, TDP and Shiv Sena. The strategy is while losing the elections due to scams etc, it is important for them that their loss should be a win in Layer-2 and Layer-3 parties. The more they can transfer from BJP,TDP and SHS to these Layer-2, Layer-3 they are further better off. The problem comes only if they go less than 130 LS seats. They had successfully entrapped NCP, SP, Maya, DMK, TRS, Laloo & Paswan via scams and loot.

Mupalla ji,

Very nice summary. In Thamil Nadu in the recent assembly elections there was a controversy regarding the seat sharing between Congress and DMK. The latter bent over backwards to accede to all the demands from the Congress ensuring that the coalition continued. The 2G scam allowed Congress to dictate terms to DMK even though Congress does not have any prospects in TN.

In addition to those parties you mentioned there are other smaller regional parties (at least in TN) that can be used in time of need.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 10 Jul 2011 14:58

Muppalla wrote:
chaanakya wrote: He will give UP to Maya ji again like he did it for Nitish in Bihar. CON Party has no hopes.
That is fine too. Congress party has a fine multi-layered coalitions

Layer-1 DMK, NCP, TMC, Others (NE and miniscules)
Layer-2 SP or Maya as needed, Laloo, Paswan
Layer-3 ADMK, Nitish, Naveen, TRS, Jagan and also Left

The realistic opposition of congress party from across the nation are only three parties- BJP, TDP and Shiv Sena. The strategy is while losing the elections due to scams etc, it is important for them that their loss should be a win in Layer-2 and Layer-3 parties. The more they can transfer from BJP,TDP and SHS to these Layer-2, Layer-3 they are further better off. The problem comes only if they go less than 130 LS seats. They had successfully entrapped NCP, SP, Maya, DMK, TRS, Laloo & Paswan via scams and loot.

I agree with thee.

Its like Onion that too rotten.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 10 Jul 2011 18:48

Pranav wrote:Hazare appeals for blackout on Aug 16 - http://www.hindustantimes.com/Hazare-ap ... 19428.aspx

With just over a month to go for his proposed indefinite strike in support for a stronger Lokpal Bill, activist Anna Hazare on Saturday announced a countrywide blackout on August 16, the day his fast begins. Appealing to citizens across the country to support what he called "the second war for independence", Hazare said everyone should switch off lights between 8pm and 9pm on that day and come out on the streets in support of the Jan Lokpal bill, the civil society version of the contentious draft legislation.

That is a very very stupid suggestion, because anti-social elements will use it to indulge in rape,eve-teasing,theft and what not, and effectively screw up the good efforts.Shutting off lights at night? No way. Our first War of Independence (if it is to be called a war at all, I'd call it a struggle for independence, opressed populations cannot go to war,they struggle for independence) developed or evolved over many years and out of severe oppression, first under the moghuls and then under the british.A second War of Indepenence is neither going to work out, nor is it needed, as we are independent.With all sincere wishes for the success of the Lok Pal Bill, I must say that mere bravado will not help, we cannot fight our own country's elected government,by disruption of normal acceptable and peaceful conduct. I think really that the methods being adopted must constantly change and be updated, if fasting did not work, it should not be repeated.Persistence does have an impact though, but anything that could spark violence will go against the effort.Shutting off lights could spark untold troubles, Congress is familiar with this game and would send paid goondas to do stuff that would shed poor light on the effort.Anna ji must come up with something better than that.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 10 Jul 2011 18:59

^^^+1..I think AH (as well his "team") is losing the plot a little bit..They fought a good fight, forced the govt to act after decades of comatose, and engendered a truly national debate....The draft that came out of the govt itself was a massive improvement over any verssion before...Add to it, they extracetd a promise on when the Bill will be presented in Parliament...

So far so good..Now its upto the Parliament...Lets see what they do..Whats the point in further dharnas, and fasts? Its only going to make AH lose public support, and earn ridicule, in a manner not dissimilar to Baba Ramdev..The latter was at least tryign his hand in politics, AH isnt even doing that and getting killed for a similar sin!

I would rather like "team AH" to take up other items on the agenda - Land Acquisitions for example...Maybe GST?!

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 10 Jul 2011 19:08

Yes indeed they should take up some serious causes, indeed.Maybe they can try to do more serious stuff than Rahul is doing, and make some impact amongst the youth, instead of headbanging old guard politicians.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 10 Jul 2011 23:15

sanjeevpunj wrote:
Pranav wrote:Hazare appeals for blackout on Aug 16 - http://www.hindustantimes.com/Hazare-ap ... 19428.aspx

With just over a month to go for his proposed indefinite strike in support for a stronger Lokpal Bill, activist Anna Hazare on Saturday announced a countrywide blackout on August 16, the day his fast begins. Appealing to citizens across the country to support what he called "the second war for independence", Hazare said everyone should switch off lights between 8pm and 9pm on that day and come out on the streets in support of the Jan Lokpal bill, the civil society version of the contentious draft legislation.
That is a very very stupid suggestion, because anti-social elements will use it to indulge in rape,eve-teasing,theft and what not, and effectively screw up the good efforts.Shutting off lights at night? No way.

This is only a matter of people switching off lights inside their own homes.

Our first War of Independence (if it is to be called a war at all, I'd call it a struggle for independence, opressed populations cannot go to war,they struggle for independence) developed or evolved over many years and out of severe oppression, first under the moghuls and then under the british. A second War of Indepenence is neither going to work out, nor is it needed, as we are independent.

Lakhs of crores are being looted by 2G family and cronies while poor farmers are committing suicide. We are oppressed even now.

With all sincere wishes for the success of the Lok Pal Bill, I must say that mere bravado will not help, we cannot fight our own country's elected government,by disruption of normal acceptable and peaceful conduct.

That the government is legitimately elected is a matter of blind faith.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 11 Jul 2011 06:15

The Kamrup Mahanagar Samity of the Patanjali Yog Peeth and Bharat Swabhiman Nyash has appealed to the people of Assam to join the peaceful and democratic movement launch-ed by Baba Ramdev to eradicate corruption in the Indian society and to get back the enormous amount of Indian money stashed in Swiss banks by corrupt and anti-national elements of the country....freedom fighter Kamakhya Prasad Das said that Satyagraha which was used by the Father of the Nation as the most potent weapon against the British imperialists was still relevant in the nation’s new struggle against corruption, hatred and violence.

The meeting resolved that the passage of the Lokpal Bill in whatever form and content must ensure that corrupt elements in the country irrespective of their position would not be able to escape the hand of law.

Assam Tribune

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jul 2011 07:10

Interesting perspective on the impact of corruption and stablity on economic growth - Sanjaya Baru..
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... on/442225/

As a general proposition it can be said that political corruption is not as much a threat to economic growth as political and social instability. This is neither a nice thing to say or read nor a particularly elevating sentiment, but there it is.

Economists are also aware of the economic consequences of corruption, which can be both negative and positive. Corruption distorts the distribution of gains from economic activity, which contributes to inequity. At the same time, it oils the wheels of economic activity and policy making. Hence, economists cannot take a uni-dimensional view of corruption, while they would take a singular view of the negative economic consequences of political instability.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 11 Jul 2011 08:35

^ This is a classic Paki-style threat from the Congress...effectively putting a gun to its own head.

The Congress has been unable to push through any reform in 7 years, and now they want to show that reforms will be stalled because of the 'political instability' created by the corruption-related charges over the last one year. My left foot ! Any more of such lame excuses from the INC, and it will be explicit indication that it is time to replace them with a party that can actually walk the talk on reform.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 11 Jul 2011 09:28

Arjun wrote: ^ This is a classic Paki-style threat from the Congress...effectively putting a gun to its own head.

I am just waiting for someone to spew a whole lot of irreverent gibberish and bla bla which offcourse will make it sound like they are the "expert" and then throw some complicated phraseology around such as "nuanced position on corruption" thereby making themselves sound like the most credible and intelligent anti-corruption "expert" when the real purpose behind the show is to defend the corruption loot.

Off course, the completely intended pun here is that whoever does not have a "nuanced" position on corruption is an illiterate idiot.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 11 Jul 2011 12:28

This is a classic Paki-style threat from the Congress...effectively putting a gun to its own head.

Arjun Ji, from a purely economic POV there is more truth to that statement probably than most would acknowledge. 'Corruption' itself is a term that is a little subjective in itself. I mentioned earlier that if it implies loss to the exchequer, then delay of reforms by 7 years cost us a loss of 4 Trillion USD in GDP this year itself. That delay in implementing reform earlier has allowed probably a hundred million Indians or more to stay in poverty.

The truth on political stability comes from the different voices that gather steam and momentum from the movement against corruption. Voices that clamor upsetting the constitutional framework, that hark back to licensing Raj, that call for lowering growth rates, that demand abolition of private property, demand Chinese or Pakistani style authoritarian structures, and many that equate reform with 'corruption' etc. All these are obviously not good by any stretch to the economy as a whole and will perpetuate economic misery on people longer than is necessary. Even on this forum thread it is evident that the voices that stressed on the reform whether Electoral, land acquisition, retail, financial, GST comprehensive exit policy for Babu's etc were shouted down to just 2 camps: Pro Maino and against. Whereas the issue obviously is much larger than that. The factions that were led by people who believe in nationalization, barring MNC's etc were cheered the loudest.

That i am sorry is not going to get India out of the mire. So where do we hear of the clamor to bring about reform amongst the various voices against corruption? Those that are trying to bring that to the fore are being shouted down and victimized in a way. Will Social and Political stability come out of the many different voices and opinions when they are not clear of what exactly they want and how to go about achieving that.

The irony of the whole thing is without the necessary policy reforms we may create a whole bureaucracy in the Lok pal which may not do away with corruption in the sense the public wants, but on the other hand by good policy reform without creating a Lok Pal we may get the desired results.

Where i differ from Baru is that political stability is not alone a criteria for growth. Friendly policies with political stability are primary. TN, Gujarat, Bihar are AP till a few years back were typical examples of that. Political stability + Friendly policies with a top down thrust. WB with the left front had all the desired political stability, so did Kerala. But neither lured growth or major investment. Political stability and Good policy work in tandom, neither in the absence of the other works at all.

I am in complete agreement in voting out the Congress for the spate of scams it has churned out, but the biggest disservice being done against corruption is turning the debate on how to tackle it, into Maino vs non Maino camp. That completely sidelines the core issues involved in tackling it.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jul 2011 12:54

Corruption, at its purest can be defined as use of public office for private gains...

But reall, the linkage between corruption and growth is rather tenuous - empirics are quite ambialent, in fact they go on to suggest that corruption actually cuts through inefficiencies, esp in developing countries...

X-posting a well-know Chicago study from the other thread..
http://www.mironov.fm/research/corruption.pdf

What did reforms do? It cut out the space for public corruption on investments, by imply enabling the pvt sector to make those investments...And given that the public sector was bad at investing, it had a salutary effect on growth...But it still retained discretionary powers with the state..Over time, agents of the state learned to use them "well"...So pvt sector made money, generated growth, but also paid off the public agents...

This isnt to say that corruption isnt relevant..It hugely is..But the antidote to corruption are substantive, better policies..A "with me or with the identified villain" narrative, leading to cantenkerous political battles degenrates into nothing more than ego fights...Bofors was symptomatic of that - VP Singh took out a piece of paper and proclaimed he will prosecute the accused within 15 days of coming to power - he did nothing..Nor did any non-INC govt since then..

People coming out to support AH are not looking to roll any of the reform clocks back - the support is an aspirational selfish motive of ensuring that their well-being goes up even faster than what has been till now....they see the opportunity - they need a bigger share of the pie for themselves, instead of some sleazy politician...The only way that can be delivered is through more reforms...

Instead of knuckling down to demand those policy initatives from the govt, the only thing that makes the headlines (and badges of "patriotism") are name-calling..Which is th worst of all worlds..We vut off economic momentum by engendering political instability, and do jackshit about the problem either...

it will be explicit indication that it is time to replace them with a party that can actually walk the talk on reform

And that would be BJP?

niran · Post by **niran** » 11 Jul 2011 13:13

somnath wrote: VP Singh took out a piece of paper and proclaimed he will prosecute the accused within 15 days of coming to power - he did nothing..Nor did any non-INC govt since then..

And that would be BJP?

this is a blatant lie and that make you a liar(please pardon me to call you a Liar)
VP singh promised action on Bofors and he did that formed proper investigation team
and unleashed them, this is India, we do not live in some banana guava republic,
over here first you get proofs then you prosecute and then you punish, not "i will
punish Bofors wrong doers in 15 days and on day fifteen your political enemy
detained their supporter lathi charged and then some tears "it has been an unfortunate
incident"

may i if i may suggest, water beating sport, it will give you good physical and good upper body muskil.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jul 2011 13:24

niran wrote:this is a blatant lie and that make you a liar(please pardon me to call you a Liar)

What is the "lie"? That VP Singh made that promise?

I guess then Inder Malhotra's also "lying"..
http://www.tribuneindia.com/1999/99may12/edit.htm

Mr Singh’s declaration that within 15 days of assuming power he would expose and punish the guilty men of Bofors

Seems I was charitable to VP Singh in paraphrasing - he promised "punishment", not just "prosecution"!

I dont know which sport you play wth water, surely not one that exercises your brains too much

So yes, on that ground you surely can be "pardoned" for your language - goes with the "between the ears" territory in some cases...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Jul 2011 13:33

OT a general thought on liars and lying ---

There are many liars, just because one person deliberately lied does not mean that some one deliberately spreading that lie is not a bigger liar.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 11 Jul 2011 13:38

harbans wrote:Arjun Ji, from a purely economic POV there is more truth to that statement probably than most would acknowledge. 'Corruption' itself is a term that is a little subjective in itself. I mentioned earlier that if it implies loss to the exchequer, then delay of reforms by 7 years cost us a loss of 4 Trillion USD in GDP this year itself. That delay in implementing reform earlier has allowed probably a hundred million Indians or more to stay in poverty.

Harbansji, I would not have found the INC media boy's explanation as ridiculous if the INC indeed had a pro-reforms image prior to the whole 'corruption shindig' and reforms had legitimately slowed down as a direct result of corruption-related protests - neither of which are the truth.

My disenchantment with the UPA government's track record on economic reforms predates all of this corruption related drama. In fact I can pull out a series of posts on the economy thread from the beginning of the year, where I have been consistently arguing that this whole Indian tendency to take for granted a 'god-given' 8 - 9% growth rate is a load of bull, and that we urgently need second generation economic reforms to ensure that the growth rate stayed at the 10% level for the next decade. Btw, I was the lone voice at that time - all other regulars of the economic thread seemed to believe that the Indian economy was on some kind of 'auto-pilot' mode.

My point is simply that it is completely ridiculous for a government that has a track record of non-performance on reforms - to suddenly turn around and raise the excuse of 'political instability not allowing reforms' as the reason for not dealing with the issue of corruption.

niran · Post by **niran** » 11 Jul 2011 13:51

somnath wrote: What is the "lie"? That VP Singh made that promise?

I guess then Inder Malhotra's also "lying"..
http://www.tribuneindia.com/1999/99may12/edit.htm

I dont know which sport you play wth water, surely not one that exercises your brains too much So yes, on that ground you surely can be "pardoned" for your language - goes with the "between the ears" territory in some cases...

so we begin to play word twisting! good,
"The Lie" is in your most exalted very own words

his exalted Somnath few post above wrote:VP Singh took out a piece of paper and proclaimed he will prosecute the accused within 15 days of coming to power - he did nothing..Nor did any non-INC govt since then

to make it clearer your accusation and whathishisname article writer you quoted
was that VP Sing did nothing, as a matter of fact it was him who formed the proper investigative team, so that in my "territory of going between the ears" is a lie, and you
your exalted saar you posted that hence you lied.

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 11 Jul 2011 13:58

Muppalla wrote:
That is fine too. Congress party has a fine multi-layered coalitions

Layer-1 DMK, NCP, TMC, Others (NE and miniscules)
Layer-2 SP or Maya as needed, Laloo, Paswan
Layer-3 ADMK, Nitish, Naveen, TRS, Jagan and also Left

The realistic opposition of congress party from across the nation are only three parties- BJP, TDP and Shiv Sena. The strategy is while losing the elections due to scams etc, it is important for them that their loss should be a win in Layer-2 and Layer-3 parties. The more they can transfer from BJP,TDP and SHS to these Layer-2, Layer-3 they are further better off. The problem comes only if they go less than 130 LS seats. They had successfully entrapped NCP, SP, Maya, DMK, TRS, Laloo & Paswan via scams and loot.

100 % agree. Why doesn't Congress coterie plays these games with Pawar and family, because it is a symbiotic relationship based on fear? If the coterie can send Karunanidhi's extended family to jail, why not Supriya Sule, who was supposed to be a Permanent Resident of Singapore at the time of LS 2009 elections, thereby preventing her from contesting the same? Moreover, just like Kanimozhi she is rumoured to have received loans from various friends- Lavasa, IPL etc. Now who will dent the layers by hastening the proceedings in the Bombay HC that will send Sule to her good friend Kani's abode in Tihar ?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jul 2011 14:01

niran wrote:was that VP Sing did nothing, as a matter of fact it was him who formed the proper investigative team

Ahh, for the difference between "doing nothing" and "forming" a "proper investigative team" whic achieves, well, nothing! "Proper" as defined by name anonymous postors in a blog...Well, stretching the same logic, some other nasty people, not necessarily name anonymous, would also define RG's JPC as a "proper" team, after all it was "formed" by him to investigate the case...And if someone says that they did "nothing", they will be indulging in terminological inexactitude!

I guess there is too much water between the ears!

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 11 Jul 2011 14:13

harbans wrote:The truth on political stability comes from the different voices that gather steam and momentum from the movement against corruption. Voices that clamor upsetting the constitutional framework, that hark back to licensing Raj, that call for lowering growth rates, that demand abolition of private property, demand Chinese or Pakistani style authoritarian structures, and many that equate reform with 'corruption' etc. All these are obviously not good by any stretch to the economy as a whole and will perpetuate economic misery on people longer than is necessary. Even on this forum thread it is evident that the voices that stressed on the reform whether Electoral, land acquisition, retail, financial, GST comprehensive exit policy for Babu's etc were shouted down to just 2 camps: Pro Maino and against. Whereas the issue obviously is much larger than that. The factions that were led by people who believe in nationalization, barring MNC's etc were cheered the loudest.

Harbansji, you are right that there are various extreme-left voices that are jumping on to the clamor on corruption. Its funny, considering the current government itself is left-liberal - but yes, the more extreme leftist elements (ARoy, P Bhushan types) are attempting to grab at this opening. But as long as these remain part of the mysteriously defined 'civil society' and not part of any arm of the government (ie either executive, legislature, judiciary or Lokpal) I am not so sure they are a factor of concern. It is only when these types infiltrate and become members of one of these 4 arms that I would be really concerned.

The way I see it, there are 4 parallel solutions to addressing the issue of corruption -

1. Political retribution on any party that is seen to be systematically 'corrupt'
2. Convictions of those who perpetrate acts of corruption
3. A system (such as Lokpal) for identification and objective followup of any future case of corruption
4. Systemic reforms in governance that decreases the likelihood of corruption

As long as thought AND action is being expended on all the 4 fronts above I would not be too concerned...Some folks out here are more interested in (1), some in (2), some in (4)....but I would not necessarily make a case that any one of the above is necessarily the ONLY one required - I believe all of these paths are equally important and together contribute to a rounded-solution for addressing corruption. I may be personally interested in (4) and (1) , but that does not mean that I would necessarily shut out any person who is interested in the others - each person contributes as per their interest.

If your argument is that we are seeing too little of (4), that is a valid argument. We need to have a lot more ideas around (4) - but NOT by shutting out those who are pursuing (1), (2), or (3) - all of those paths also need to happen in parallel, and voices need to be heard.

By the way, I am somewhat conflicted around the Lokpal idea. Lokpal should be an institution and the type of individual who occupies that chair should ideally have very little effect on the type of corruption cases and positions that are acted against. There should be effective mechanisms for fire-walling the Lokpal institution from agenda-driven individuals. On the other hand, maybe that is too idealistic a position....I will need to understand the nuances some more.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 11 Jul 2011 14:35

somnath wrote: it will be explicit indication that it is time to replace them with a party that can actually walk the talk on reform
And that would be BJP?

What is required is new leadership that is strongly pro-business and growth and has a track record on that front. Also somebody that has an extreme clean and 'incorruptible' public image.....and has no baggage of dynastic politics.

There, I have specified exactly what India needs as PM cum party-leader. Now, since you know Indian politics well - can you name some folks who satisfy these conditions? I am OK to any party, even INC as long as it is non-dynasty.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jul 2011 14:54

Arjun wrote:What is required is new leadership that is strongly pro-business and growth and has a track record on that front. Also somebody that has an extreme clean and 'incorruptible' public image.....and has no baggage of dynastic politics.

Political authority matters more than a "paragon" of all virtues...More so in a democracy, where there are checks and balances to cut out the more eggregious excesses...In the UPA dispensation, SG would have been the "best" choice as PM - she is the one wielding political authority - at least the accountability would have been firmly fixed...

In the current scenario, there are quite a few PM material candidates around from that perspective - Narendra Modi, Nitish Kumar, Sheila Dixit, MAyawati, Jayalalitha would be the top 5 in my list, though Puratchi Thalaivi is an outlier...The most probable? Nitish Kumar....

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 11 Jul 2011 15:02

My point is simply that it is completely ridiculous for a government that has a track record of non-performance on reforms - to suddenly turn around and raise the excuse of 'political instability not allowing reforms' as the reason for not dealing with the issue of corruption.

Perfectly valid. I am in favor of removing the Govt and substituting it with a Govt that will fast track the policy reform part, curb corruption, better governance and keep or increase growth rates further.

Harbansji, you are right that there are various extreme-left voices that are jumping on to the clamor on corruption.

I recall clearly from the late 80's the whole debate was on corruption and specifically the Bofors Saga and no focus on much needed reform. That agenda in the past also has been hijacked by left forces, so there is a precedent for caution. Ironically VP Singh was a complete 3G family sycophant. A complete pro-emergency camp Pro Sanjay Gandhi camp follower. Later in an interview he said Rajiv didn't take a bribe in the Bofors scam. He claimed so whats wrong with Quattrochi being close to Sonia. A complete left socialist to boot, i'm not surprised that some people speaking loudly against 'corruption' are defending his dubious record.

Niran and Sanku Ji a request: I think this thread will get completely contaminated by the combative tone of argument and accusation you are setting. Somnath Ji did'nt say anything personal to you both that you attack him and call him a liar. I think both of you should hold your horses and if there is some thing wrong in his statement, disprove it by other means.

Niran: VP Singh didn't prove anything much in Bofors. Except that there were middle men deals that happened. VP SIngh was the finance minister and among the first people that negotiated the Bofors deal. He IIRC was also the Defense Minister. So he was part of the Govt set up during the deal making progress.

For more info refer to this interview:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/07inter.htm

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 11 Jul 2011 15:06

somnath wrote:In the current scenario, there are quite a few PM material candidates around from that perspective - Narendra Modi, Nitish Kumar, Sheila Dixit, MAyawati, Jayalalitha would be the top 5 in my list, though Puratchi Thalaivi is an outlier...The most probable? Nitish Kumar....

From what little I have heard of Mayawati - not so sure her image is entirely 'clean' nor business-friendly....

That leaves the other 4. Jayalalitha has had questions raised on her personal front as well. Modi leads a far more economically sophisticated state as compared to either Nitish or Sheila, which would go in his favor. Just some random thoughts....

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Jul 2011 15:08

somnath wrote:
Arjun wrote:What is required is new leadership that is strongly pro-business and growth and has a track record on that front. Also somebody that has an extreme clean and 'incorruptible' public image.....and has no baggage of dynastic politics.
Political authority matters more than a "paragon" of all virtues...More so in a democracy, where there are checks and balances to cut out the more eggregious excesses...In the UPA dispensation, SG would have been the "best" choice as PM - she is the one wielding political authority - at least the accountability would have been firmly fixed...

In the current scenario, there are quite a few PM material candidates around from that perspective - Narendra Modi, Nitish Kumar, Sheila Dixit, MAyawati, Jayalalitha would be the top 5 in my list, though Puratchi Thalaivi is an outlier...The most probable? Nitish Kumar....

Don't under estimate Amma.

She will put up a very strong showing from the south during the next elections and will definitely have a large say at the center.

She might make it a la deve gowda, but there all comparisons end.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jul 2011 15:18

Arjun wrote:From what little I have heard of Mayawati - not so sure her image is entirely 'clean' nor business-friendly....

Ask Jaiprakash Gaur

...As I said, political authority is more important than a paragon of virtue (and no politician is, or can be, a paragon of all possible virtues)...

I know there is a certain fascination for Narendra Modi - but he is unlikely...He cant deliver 272 seats to BJP on his own, and has virtually no support outside (a large part of) BJP...

Nitish Kumar, on the other hand, can deliver one large state, influence a couple of more (hindi speaking ones), and above all, can command support across the political spectrum...Additionally, he has a fair track reord of managing (and ostensibly turning around) one of the toughest states in India...Mayawati falls in the same category, but political support for her across the spectrum is somewhat muted compared to Nitish...But I guess OT here...

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 11 Jul 2011 15:24

But as long as these remain part of the mysteriously defined 'civil society' and not part of any arm of the government (ie either executive, legislature, judiciary or Lokpal) I am not so sure they are a factor of concern.

Arjun Ji, a very concerted attempt was made to install a parallel and unaccounted entity via the JLPB Version 1 that would make all 3 wings of the Govt accountable to an unaccountable entity via the JLPB. After the Emergency i feel this was the strongest attempt at subversion of the constitutional setup. This was discussed here a few pages back. Chillingly there was a large amount of people behind that who naively assumed everything would happen in their own interest and a strong JLPB version 1 must become a reality to do away with corruption. So all people who argued against a strong JLPB V1 were not pro-Maino or Pro-INC. I caution thus here too that the battle against corruption is weakened most by those that equate criticism of the JLPB to == Mainovadi camp. That argument is baseless and dangerous.

If your argument is that we are seeing too little of (4), that is a valid argument. We need to have a lot more ideas around (4) - but NOT by shutting out those who are pursuing (1), (2), or (3) - all of those paths also need to happen in parallel, and voices need to be heard.

Arjun Ji, i have argued for all 4. But i agree with Baru in the sense that great 1 or 2 don't help like Mao's China. Corruption did increase in Deng's China but so did growth and people were lifted out of poverty consequently by the hundreds of millions. So if one wants to do anything meaningful really step 4 is of utmost importance and priority. Eliminating corruption != high growth.
Eliminating corruption after policy reform==higher than high growth.
High growth as we see comes solely from 4. Not 1.
North Korea is the least corrupt country in the world. UN doesn't even take it into account it's peoples own perception in measuring corruption. Is that an ideal? That ideal comes about with solely focus on 1 and 2.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jul 2011 15:25

harbans wrote:I recall clearly from the late 80's the whole debate was on corruption and specifically the Bofors Saga and no focus on much needed reform.

The Bofors saga was a perfect case of how not to address a corruption problem..All that it engendered was

1. Cut off middlemen from defence contracts - as foolish a measure commercially as it gets...Later rescinded, many years later...
2. Froze procurement for years, espcially arty - which remains frozen to this date..
3. Put the entire defence reform agenda on the backburner - the fantastic Arun Singh committee report went straight to the dustshelves..
4. Paralysed the Rajiv administration for 4 years..
5. Did NOT catch anyone, not in 15 days, not in 15 years...

Barring ego clashes and personal ambitions, it achieved nothing....Because the principals or their cheerleaders were not interested in the substantive stuff - they were only interested in the slogans..Much easier on the brains, you see!