Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 2010)

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sumishi
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by sumishi »

vic wrote:I am basically a layman=moron but tell me what is the economic plan of western world? They handed over the manufactering to China, service industry to India and harass tourists/students. Now they want India/China to increase "internal" consumption, what would be left in these economies?
Here is my understanding of the global situation. To comprehend the picture, one has to mentally rise above the concept of national boundaries. There is a set of extremely powerful global "elites," part of the global banking-industrial-military complex, who have no national affiliations but are affiliated only to greed for resource accumulation. They manipulate and play nations against each other economically and militarily, raising some nations and demolishing others over periods of time, all the while sucking out money (productive capacity of a country in monetary terms).

As a rough parallel, think of an avaricious landlord/moneylender [==banking-industrial-military complex] lording over a village [==world], who with the aid of his money-lending tactics [==banking/economic policies] and his henchmen [==military policies], will try to appropriate all the lands [==nations & their wealth] of the hapless farmers[==world's junta] over a period.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vic »

Present world economic order was formed in last 2 centuries when Industrialization left China and India behind. As China is catching up, the only way the western world can compete is by devaluing their currency and lowering their living standards, lot of pain ahead for them. Historically India and China should control 80% of Global economy.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by paramu »

vic wrote:Present world economic order was formed in last 2 centuries when Industrialization left China and India behind.
Nope, you miss the point. It took place during colonization.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Chinmayanand »

I have a simple query. Say, FED is abolished overnight and US treasury starts printing dollars. How will it be different ? Won't the US govt become more irresponsible with its finances ?

In a nutshell , what is the difference between FED printing press and US Treasury printing press ?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

Chinmayanand wrote:I have a simple query. Say, FED is abolished overnight and US treasury starts printing dollars. How will it be different ? Won't the US govt become more irresponsible with its finances ?

In a nutshell , what is the difference between FED printing press and US Treasury printing press ?
Huge...Central Banks are supposed to be "independent" of the govt with a specific set of mandates...Those mandates have inherent conflicts with fiscal policies of the govt...Ergo, if the govt started defining both monetary and fiscal policies, the results would be quite interesting to say the least! :wink:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^ That apart, another difference (implied sorta, but anyway, here goes) between the Fed and the US Treasury printing monies is that the Fed prints to lend only - creates money as debt basically whereas the US treasury (the COTUS, to be more precise) is theoretically endowed with the magical power to create money without an explicit repayment obligation.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

Hari Seldon wrote:between the Fed and the US Treasury printing monies is that the Fed prints to lend only - creates money as debt basically whereas the US treasury (the COTUS, to be more precise) is theoretically endowed with the magical power to create money without an explicit repayment obligation
Creation of "money" has the same impact, whether done by Fed or if it were to be done by Govt...The only difference being that the Fed prints money to buy G-secs issued by the govt, which in turn are used to pay the latter's bills...If the govt did the needful, they would simply print the money to settle its bills.....
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by VikramS »

Regarding the US, there is a shortage of workers with the right skills. Whether it is IT or mining/oil related work the shortage is present. After the end of the cold-war a huge amount of the work force was involved in the construction industry. These are relatively low skill jobs. Once that boom faded these workers are basically useless for anything which demands a certain level of skill and training.

In the very big picture, the US has a lot of mineral wealth, including oil. It still has the best and the most advanced military in the world. And it has a lot of land. It does not suffer from the demographic issues of Europe and will and continue to attract people. There are also the resources of Canada up North which are a part of the American economic sphere when it comes to their impact on the US economy.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SwamyG »

The lot of land is useful only when transportation of goods, people and energy/resources remain cheap. Else they will become vast emptiness. America has enough, if not more natural resources, that is without question. In the absence of cheap reliable transportation; people would have to move closer to the source of resources or each other to take advantage of the resources/each other. It makes more sense more someone to grow their own food in the East than to transport it across from the Mid-west or West. However what this would mean is people will not be able to eat produce from other parts through the year. Oranges from California and Florida will be expensive, for example. Because of the price, lifestyle will change.

This is the perspective dhaaga....so some perspective only:
1) http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110411/j ... 812499.jsp
Global warming makes matters much worse, because it hits food production very hard. The rule of thumb is that the world loses about ten per cent of its food production for every rise of one degree Celsius in average global temperature.

So the amount of food that is for sale on the international market drops drastically, because some of the big food-exporting countries are not producing enough food to export it any more. As the food gets scarce, the price goes up. Countries that cannot feed themselves either pay huge amounts to buy the limited amount of food that is still available on the international market, or else go hungry. Which brings us back to India and China.

Almost half the total land area of India is good arable land, whereas only 15 per cent of China is. So although China looks bigger on the map, India has a significantly lower Real Population Density: 753 people per sq km of farmland compared to 943 for China. Add in the fact that China is currently losing about 1 per cent of its arable land per year to buildings, roads and parking lots, and the numbers for China start looking seriously bad.

At the other end of the spectrum, look at the big industrialized states in Europe. Italy and Germany are in the 700s, but Spain, France, Sweden and Poland are all in the 300s. The lucky ones still have room to grow; the others don’t.

And the uncontested winners in this new lottery? The United States of America has only 179 people per sq km of good agricultural land. Russia has 117. Canada is 78, and Australia is 43. Australia, in other words, has more than half a hectare of good land per person. This is deeply unfair, given which countries are actually responsible for the global warming. To them that hath, shall it be given. But then, you already knew that the universe isn’t fair.
So India will do better than China, but America will still do better than India. So will the other countries mentioned in the list. I have always put few countries that will survive in the newer crazier world. I had two tiers; the first one had America, China and India. The second one had Australia, Brazil, Russia and some others {can not remember :-)}

2. These guys claim Arable lands can be increased in America, Russia and China. No surprise this report is from Chinese, so please take it a with a few drops of soy sause: http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/6/1 ... 014014.pdf

However lots of resources by themselves do not mean anything unless there are consumers. America can have all the minerals, lumber and water it wants - they become useful only if somebody can buy them economically. Else, they will not be mined. So America will be self-sufficient and can take care of its people. However, because of the population size its economy will start to slow down compared to India and China - that have large lands and population who will be involved in trade.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

somnath wrote:Creation of "money" has the same impact, whether done by Fed or if it were to be done by Govt...The only difference being that the Fed prints money to buy G-secs issued by the govt, which in turn are used to pay the latter's bills...If the govt did the needful, they would simply print the money to settle its bills.....
The reason the Federal Reserve exist is to perpetuate the monopoly of the commercial banks it represents. I've coined the phrase ``useless middleman industry`` - its one which sits in the middle of a transaction extracting fees and offering no or negative value. From what I`ve seen, that terminology aptly describes much of what is called the banking & financing `ìndustry` today along with a load of academia cooking up BS theories in support of their con game.

Its an industry with limited utilitarian value relative to the HUGE sums of money money it extracts from the real productive economy.

While govt printing money would not necessarily promote any more responsibility than the Federal Reserve crooks, it would eliminate or greatly limit the involvement of a load of useless middlemen from transactions.

Cutting out the useless middleman can`t be a bad thing.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Chinmayanand »

If US treasury starts its own printing press , what will happen to the Treasuries market , the T-notes , where will the third world countries park their fx reserves ? Am i missing something ?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

Long term (or more like short term since a collapse is fast coming), what`s needed is a transition to a privately issued monetary system.

Private entities issue their own money and you get to choose what type of money you want to hold your earnings in. None of it is FDIC backed so you don`t get to pass on your bad investment decision which goes up in smokes onto someone else.

One benefit is that it will force people to more closely scrutinize who they are getting their money from and what backs the value of that money. Right now nobody has a clue what the bank they have their money in is invested in. All they care about is the govt promise to rip off someone else with money printing to pay them through FDIC should the bank fail - which is wrong.

If people trust none of these private money issuers, they can just buy physical gold and keep that as savings. It would be a shield against currency chaos but would offer little growth in value.

The technology already exist to change one currency to another digitally so there could be hundreds of private money issuers. Just like if you are in the US and want to buy a Canadian product priced in CAD on ebay, you can use paypal and it automatically converts your USD to CAD (for a small fee). There would be many private electronic money changers as well competing to offer the lowest fees.

The benefit of this is that it would remove the few scamming commercial banks currently running a monopoly of the monetary system and promoting this too-big-to-fail racket by offloading gambling losses onto the backs of taxpayers.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ranjbe »

SwamyG wrote:
And the uncontested winners in this new lottery? The United States of America has only 179 people per sq km of good agricultural land. Russia has 117. Canada is 78, and Australia is 43. Australia, in other words, has more than half a hectare of good land per person. This is deeply unfair, given which countries are actually responsible for the global warming. To them that hath, shall it be given. But then, you already knew that the universe isn’t fair.

There is one more significant factor which is missing in this analysis, namely number of crop cycles per year. In tropical parts of India you can have three to four cycles per year. In frigid USA, Russia etc. you have at most two: (summer and winter - and winter crops cost much more to produce). There is a good reason mankind preferred to settle in warm, moist (near river basins) climates, because one can survive with a minimum of clothing and shelter in these climes, while you need expensive infrastructure (insulated homes, heating, snow-removal, etc. etc.) in the frigid areas. Furthermore, growing food crops is inexpensive and easy.
That explains the high population densities.
Nature has been very kind to India in that sense. And with good, realistic agriculture policies India has the potential to excel in this regard, even in spite of the many more mouths to feed.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SwamyG »

^^^
Good points. My biggest worry has always been clean water for irrigation and everyday use. If the glaciers in Himalayas are truly melting, then it is a cause for worry.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ranjbe »

SwamyG wrote:^^^
Good points. My biggest worry has always been clean water for irrigation and everyday use. If the glaciers in Himalayas are truly melting, then it is a cause for worry.
I would certainly agree with you regarding the 'known unknown' effects of global warming. India may or may not be adversely affected. However, I am much more sanguine about the so-called 'water shortage' hype. Water on and around the earth (as water vapor) is a closed system. That means that the same amount of water existed in these forms a million years ago as it does now. The only difference is that there are many,many more people who need fresh water for survivial, than in the past. There is more than adequate water supply to do this - in fact it is estimated that only 2% of all water described above is used for human needs. The only problem is that the 98% of "unusable" (ocean water, water vapor, drain water, glaciers, river water, etc.) needs to be converted to human-usable format. Science already has many techniques to provide this conversion (desalination, water purification, gizmos which convert water vapor to water, etc.) These solutions have a price, and the rural folks may have to pay a little in order to get the fresh water, unlike getting it free from wells, rivers and ponds in the past.
Unlike food which many scientists claim has a finite upper limit to future production, water does not have this problem.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vic »

paramu wrote:
vic wrote:Present world economic order was formed in last 2 centuries when Industrialization left China and India behind.
Nope, you miss the point. It took place during colonization.

Conquest of territories in India and China was going on for centuries, It was industrialization which left them behind
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vic »

SwamyG wrote:.

Almost half the total land area of India is good arable land, whereas only 15 per cent of China is. So although China looks bigger on the map, India has a significantly lower Real Population Density: 753 people per sq km of farmland compared to 943 for China. Add in the fact that China is currently losing about 1 per cent of its arable land per year to buildings, roads and parking lots, and the numbers for China start looking seriously bad.
also in cold climates 1 crop per year is norm while in India 2-3 crops can be knocked out :-)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^Despite all that, fact remains that our yields are wayyy below global norms. IOW, there's headroom left to grow in.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

looks like the french have got just a litttttttle bit richer.
---

Image

Gold hoard found in French cellar
8 July 2011 Last updated at 11:01 ET

A French couple have found a hoard of gold coins worth at least 100,000 euros (£89,000; $140,000) in the cellar of their home in the town of Millau.

They were working on their drains when they dug up the 34 coins in a little clay pot, French media said.

The coins date from 1595 to the French Revolution, which began in 1789, said a local coin expert who evaluated them.

The most valuable is a double louis from 1640, during the reign of Louis XIII, worth 6,500 euros.

The coin expert, Marc Aigouy, told AFP news agency that he offered either to buy the coins from the couple or to organise an auction on their behalf.

He said if American and Japanese buyers participated, the coins could fetch at least 100,000 euros.

Mr Aigouy said the couple wish to remain anonymous but they live on rue Droite, an old Roman road which is the oldest street in Millau, in southern France.

Under French law, the couple are allowed to keep the treasure because it was found on their own property, Mr Aigouy said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14080228
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

Chinmayanand wrote:If US treasury starts its own printing press , what will happen to the Treasuries market , the T-notes , where will the third world countries park their fx reserves ? Am i missing something ?
It wont have too much of an impact, barring changing the "instrument"...what are bonds floated for? Basically, the US govt has a bunch of "payables" (lets call them IOUs) that it cannot pay for, hence it raises "debt"...If instead of raising debt, it simply took over the task of printing money, foreign investors would buy up thoese IOUs, thats all...Just tht debt is more efficient in terms of a number of ways...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by UBanerjee »

vic wrote:Present world economic order was formed in last 2 centuries when Industrialization left China and India behind. As China is catching up, the only way the western world can compete is by devaluing their currency and lowering their living standards, lot of pain ahead for them. Historically India and China should control 80% of Global economy.
About 50% actually. But let's not put too much stock in that being inevitable. Lots of things can happen.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

SUCKERS are needed once more to pay for more banking crook bailouts. Please sign up folks, we're fast running out of suckers.

The snowball is beginning to roll on Italy. All aboard!

----
Yep, Italy is suddenly a crisis country.

EU President Herman van Rompuy has called an emergency meeting for Monday to discuss the Italian contagion, according to Reuters.

A combination of economic and political factors has seen a sharp selloff in stocks, and a surge in yields.

The country is also getting caught up in a continent-wide game of chicken, that started, really, when French banks broached the idea of haircuts for Greek debt holders.

It will be interesting to see who blinks first? The governments, the private sector, the rating agencies or the ECB?
http://www.businessinsider.com/meanwhil ... -on-2011-7

and this in Reuters...
Exclusive: EU calls emergency meeting as crisis stalks Italy

(Reuters) - European Council President Herman Van Rompuy has called an emergency meeting of top officials dealing with the euro zone debt crisis for Monday morning, reflecting concern that the crisis could spread to Italy, the region's third largest economy.

European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet will attend the meeting along with Jean-Claude Juncker, chairman of the region's finance ministers, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and Olli Rehn, the economic and monetary affairs commissioner, three official sources told Reuters.

Van Rompuy's spokesman Dirk De Backer said: "It's a coordination, not a crisis meeting." He added that Italy would not be on the agenda and declined to say what would be discussed.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/ ... HM20110710
Last edited by Neshant on 11 Jul 2011 10:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

paging all suckers.. paging all suckers. please report with your wallet to the front desk. the banking "industry" needs another bailout.
-----
As was reported last week, Europe has suddenly found itself shocked, shocked, that the bond vigilantes decided to not pass go and go directly to the purgatory of the European core, in the form of the country that, at €1.5 trillion euros, has more debt than even Germany, but far more importantly, has a debt/GDP ratio of over 100%, and has the biggest amount of net notional CDS outstanding (not to mention that it has dominated Sigma X trading for the past several weeks).

Italy. On Friday we explained why things are about to get really ugly for the boot as a flurry of bond auctions is now imminent. Which is why it was not surprising to read that tomorrow morning the European Council has called an emergency meeting "of top officials dealing with the euro zone debt crisis for Monday morning, reelecting [sic; we assume Reuters means reflecting] concern that the crisis could spread to Italy, the region's third largest economy."

Newsflash: the crisis has spread to Italy. And it will only get worse at this point as Spain is largely ignored for now.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/europe ... fficial-sa
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

The earlier news that Italy's regulator may forbid naked short selling in a desperate attempt to preempt the bond vigilantes from taking down the country's financial system (how shorting stocks prevent evil speculators from selling bonds is somewhat confusing) has been confirmed. But that's just the beginning. The latest twist is that the Consob has also requiring shorts to immediately disclose their short positions "in an effort to increase market transparency." Odd how shorts are never required to be exposed when the markets are surging (or how silver margins have yet to be reduced despite the near 40% price drop in the metal from recent peaks). It gets worse.

From Bloomberg: "The European Securities and Markets Authority, which co- ordinates the work of national regulators in the 27-nation EU, should be given emergency powers to temporarily ban short selling or trades in CDS on sovereign debt in the EU, the Parliament said. The Italian regulator said short sellers must disclose their net positions when they reach 0.2 percent or more of a company’s capital and then make additional filings for each additional 0.1 percent."
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/regula ... -positions

Italy is the big one. Much bigger than Greece if their bubble is pricked. Hold onto your lungis folks. A storm is rolling in...

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Dollar apocalypse
Jul 11, 2011

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Indranil Banerjie
A group of US financial analysts have been predicting a dollar apocalypse that will devastate economies and lives all over the globe. The problem, according to them, is the wayward dollar. The world’s reserve currency that has oiled international trade since the demise of the Gold Standard has been rapidly losing value as a profligate United States prints more and more dollars to cover its growing spending gap.
Since 1971 when the then US President Richard Nixon declared that the US dollar would no longer be backed by gold, the global financial community has relied on the prudence of America’s central bank, the Federal Reserve Bureau (better known as the Fed), to maintain the dollar’s credibility. For most of the years since then, the Fed could print more dollar notes than the US economy needed without increasing its reserves of gold or stoking domestic inflation. The system worked because in the decades since 1971, world trade burgeoned like never before and the demand for dollars to finance that trade remained high.
While every country had to sell something to get dollars, for the US government dollars were free, they could just be printed and used to buy things. There was, of course, a limit to the amount of dollars that the Fed would print. For, as every economist knows no responsible government can allow money supply to grow beyond some level considered prudent.
Financial experts, central bankers around the world and even governments closely watched the US Fed’s figure for money-supply growth, what economists call the M3 — the total of cash, bank deposits and so on. Then suddenly in 2006, the Fed stopped publishing M3 figures and left it to the financial community to guess just how much dollar liquidity was growing. At about the same time, it was clear that US trade deficit with China and other countries had gone through the roof and the Fed was having to raise more and more debt to finance that and a growing budget deficit. American spending had breached its earning envelope and was in free rise. The US federal budget deficit continues to surge and will hit $1.4 trillion this year.
US national debt is capped at the level of $14.3 trillion and US President Barack Obama needs to legislate if the government is to borrow beyond this limit. But if this is not done by August 2, then the US Treasury could actually default on loan repayment, an event that is certain to trigger a tsunami in global financial markets.
One way to avoid that would be to print even more dollars — literally print one’s way out of debt. Some financial analysts claim that the monetisation of the US debt has been going on for the past two years through the expansion of deposit currency. This could lead to dollar-hyper inflation and eventually, perhaps, the end of the dollar as the world’s reserve currency.
Already, the value of the dollar has been falling. Every strong currency has gained against the dollar; some exceptions include the South Asian countries, sanctions-hit Iran and troubled economies like Syria and Laos. In Europe, every single country has gained over the dollar except Turkey, Ukraine and Belarus. In Australia, for the first time in history, the local dollar is worth more than a US dollar! Even the battered Euro has risen 11 per cent against the dollar.
The impact of the inflationary dollar on world trade has been devastating, especially for countries with high levels of inelastic import demand. Since most globally traded goods are priced in dollars, as the value of the dollar falls, their dollar price tends to rise. This is one reason for the sharp increases in global commodity prices, including that of oil. In many parts of the world, investors, including central bankers, are gradually but surely divesting their dollar assets and buying gold and silver. The dollar is rapidly losing credibility. India is groaning under the weight of rising commodity prices, especially oil. India’s high dependence on energy imports has led to skyrocketing energy import bills, huge trade deficits and a consequent pressure on the rupee.
As energy imports get more expensive, India will find itself increasingly in trouble with the Indian rupee unable to compensate for the falling value of the US dollar. Unlike other strong currencies, the real value of the rupee will continue to plummet. At one level, India’s dilemma reflects a global issue: the lack of a credible alternative to the dollar. Despite periodic statements by world leaders that the global financial system needs reworking, nobody has been able to come up with a working solution that would do away with the dollar as the world’s reserve currency. Everybody is hoping that the US government will mend its ways, get its finances in shape and avert the inevitable crisis.
Problem is that all countries are resistant to change, especially when it threatens to affect their way of life. In Washington, too, there is no consensus on how to reduce expenditures: Democrats are looking at the whole problem as a social-spending issue; Republicans are resisting proposals to increase taxes on the rich; and President Obama, who clearly recognises the need to bring some budgetary order, is hamstrung by concerns about his re-election next year. To many American lawmakers, the global currency crisis might look chimerical, an unreal threat dreamed up by crazy financial experts. Problem is if it does break, it will not just bring down large parts of the global financial system but the power of the United States as well.
The author is an independent security and political risk consultant

http://www.asianage.com/columnists/doll ... alypse-315
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »


US going down next after Greece'

This time Max Keiser and co-host, Stacy Herbert, report on IMF dowgrades, zombie consumers and a financial circus. In the second half of the show, Max talks to Professor Steve Keen about the Greek debt crisis and Minsky's moment.

1)Greece

2)USA

3)SPAIN

4)PORTUGAL

5)IRELAND

6)ITALY
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

xxxx-post
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/230836.php
Emerging Nations BRICS Group Vow To Cheapen Meds And The Dollar
Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, or the BRICS group of emerging countries, have promised this week to improve access to low cost and high quality medicine for their citizens and called on developed nations to shoulder responsibility in helping the poor. The groundbreaking announcement came at a first time event gathering in the Chinese capital that acted as the first health minister level meeting for the BRICS group of nations. It was also attended by UNAIDS and the World Health Organization. The five emerging countries together alone account for more than 40% of the world's population. The BRICS called on WHO members, especially developed countries, to boost funding for the organisation, while Brazilian health minister Alexandre Padilha told reporters that wealthier countries should "shoulder" responsibility.The BRICS group is also concerned about the dollar and have plans for a revamped global monetary system that relies less on the dollar and for a louder voice in international financial institutions, in addition to stronger regulation of commodity derivatives to dampen excessive volatility in food and energy prices, which they said posed new risks for the recovery of the world economy. The BRICS are worried that America's large trade and budget deficits will eventually debase the dollar. They also begrudge the financial and political privileges that come with being the leading reserve currency.
Chinese President Hu Jintao said in April: "The world economy is undergoing profound and complex changes. The era demands that the BRICS countries strengthen dialogue and cooperation."
Burdened by heavy debt, the United States, the Euro zone and Japan are struggling to shake off the lingering effects of the 2008 global financial crisis. Rich countries will grow 2.4% this year and 2.6% in 2012, accourding to the International Monetary fund forecast.
A group statement said regarding public health concerns:
"We are committed to continue to collaborate in order to advance access to public health services and... support other countries in their efforts to promote health for all."
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

The Euro is toast and is burning up. I fully expect the common market to be history by this time next year, in all likelihood. Italy looks set to be the next domino and yes, Italy is too big to fail and thereby, too big to save.

French banks have huge exposure to Italian debt and they're all sinking. Already the ECB is going back on its year-old pledge to not use taxpayer money to bail out any more banks ever. Well, France is twisting the rules saying that banks that haven't been able to raise capital in 6 months may qualify for EU assistance....

The global economy is in for major storms in the coming year. Yeah, I know, too many such doomy predictions have been made already and we're still around, so this one is just another in that series. For all our sakes, let us hope this one too blows over...
Last edited by Hari Seldon on 13 Jul 2011 03:32, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

Hari, Based on the falling country stocks markets can you identify who is exposed where or is it general mayhem?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by devaraj_d »

Neshant wrote:one wonders what really gives these european economies their high value.

maybe there are a few high tech companies here and there. but all the rest just looks like run of the mill companies doing stuff at a higher price than what would be done in the east.

A good deal of the economy must be over-priced valuations with debt masquerading as wealth. Kind of like Greece where in 2007 their state companies might have been valued at X and now its valued at X/4 where the wealth evaporates like mist in the spring.
Neshant ji:

Unlike the US Europe is not well advertised. This is my personal observation about Europe.

Germany, an industrial and economic giant. Until one year ago it was the largest exporter in the world. German mechanical industries are envy of the world. I worked in the US for 3 years for an automotive company. Many critical components (at least 4 out of 5Cs) of the engine were made by German companies. It seems that there is an area in Germany called the rust belt because it is crowded with mechanical companies. German people are well known for their work ethic. I remember reading that one of the reasons some European economies are in trouble is because they were not competitive w.r.to Germany when the Euro was rolled out. With the arrival of Euro the other countries were able to get good easily (because of cheaper debt) from Germany which weakened them during and after the crisis. I visited a small but very impressive company in Germany. It is doing stuff what both India and China cannot do.

Switzerland---Do you know it is the most industrialized country in the world on industries on a geographical area basis? (I am just including Switzerland for information although it is not part of Euro).

Austria---One of the countries that was relatively stable during the crisis. A lot of high tech companies are in Austria as well.

I am not very familiar with France and Nordic countries but these are also heavily industrialized countries.

But you are right. There are debt issues that are bothering the Euro right now. But do not equate Greece / second Tier European country with Germany / France / Austria... There is a lot of difference even between neighboring countries that speak the same language.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

devraj_d, One way of seeing the Euro meltdown is the forced equality of Germany with the rest is also melting away. This is a war just like the earlier ones.

One solution after WWII was to bound Germany into economic relationships and keep de-warriorize them. So ECM was launched. Then came EU. And then Euro for common currency.

In Europe the two competing streams are Latinization and Germanism.

Even the Russian are Latinised thru the Orthodox Church and are torn between the two streams.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by devaraj_d »

ramana wrote:devraj_d, One way of seeing the Euro meltdown is the forced equality of Germany with the rest is also melting away. This is a war just like the earlier ones.

One solution after WWII was to bound Germany into economic relationships and keep de-warriorize them. So ECM was launched. Then came EU. And then Euro for common currency.

In Europe the two competing streams are Latinization and Germanism.

Even the Russian are Latinised thru the Orthodox Church and are torn between the two streams.
ramana ji, thanks for these information, which I do not know.

IMHO unless some one has the work ethic of the Germans it is impossible to compete with them.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:
One solution after WWII was to bound Germany into economic relationships and keep de-warriorize them. So ECM was launched. Then came EU. And then Euro for common currency.

In Europe the two competing streams are Latinization and Germanism.

Even the Russian are Latinised thru the Orthodox Church and are torn between the two streams.
German now wants Russification of the Europe so that dependence on the AS world is reduced.

I recently learnt that even northern Italy is being supplied with gas from Russia. Some family members who are from that area said that this has changed the economy and Russia is seen as a reliable economic partner.

The gas comes from Ukraine to Hungary and via Austria is supplied to Italy. This means med countries dont have to depend on the oil from levent or the middle east.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

ramana wrote:Hari, Based on the falling country stocks markets can you identify who is exposed where or is it general mayhem?
Well, Ramana garu, a few charts and associated commentary from the good folks over at TAE says it all...link
Image
Obviously, this graph shines a light on other things as well. For one, European banks' holdings of Italian debt is 7-8 times bigger than that of Greece. Where it's taken European leaders forever to accept, as they did today, that there will have to be haircuts for private investors. When time comes to address Italy's debt, "haircut" won't be an appropriate metaphor. It’ll be more like putting their heads through a lawnmower, and without anaesthetics.

If we broaden our scope to look beyond banks, and include other institutional investors in PIIGS debt, this is the picture we get:
Image
Clearly, it's not just the banks that will get hammered (or lawnmowered) . Pension funds, insurance companies etc. are right up there with them. Total "cross-border" exposure then looks as follows:
Image
That's a neat $3.23 trillion right there. In sovereign debt. The EU bail-out fund is presently about $700 billion, and Germany has stated that enlarging it is out of the question.
Meanwhile, talking of French exposure to Italian toxic waste....
Image
As you see, French banks have a completely outsized exposure to Italy. Which means that if the markets come after Rome, they’ll hit Société Générale, BNP Paribas and Crédit Agricole too. There's no way they won't. Here's the overall PIIGS exposure for banks per country:
Image

Oh, read it all only...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Loads of tamasha in the khanate regarding debt-ceiling and what not. Ignorable only. The ceiling will be raised, as it should. The situ is too fragile for shock-and-awe experiments at this time.

Meanwhile, the NYT suddenly wakes up to what was obvious for months now...that benefits, even extended ones, keeping afloat such a large % of the aam population, are limited duration only and are all set to expire soon.

link
An extraordinary amount of personal income is coming directly from the government.

Close to $2 of every $10 that went into Americans’ wallets last year were payments like jobless benefits, food stamps, Social Security and disability, according to an analysis by Moody’s Analytics. In states hit hard by the downturn, like Arizona, Florida, Michigan and Ohio, residents derived even more of their income from the government.

By the end of this year, however, many of those dollars are going to disappear, with the expiration of extended benefits intended to help people cope with the lingering effects of the recession. Moody’s Analytics estimates $37 billion will be drained from the nation’s pocketbooks this year.
I know. $37 bn is chump change for unkil-land and all that but not for the ones it's currently helping. Entire households are currently keeping head above water entirely baed on gubmint largesse with zero hopes of getting employed and earning anywhere in a hurry. Makes 1 ask how come khans are spending so much on Iraq, Afgn, Pak etc when that same money could do so much for amrikis home??

Meanwhile, the compassionate democrap president is at least, still, thankfully, "whew", on the side of the common people....
Mr. Obama, meeting with leaders from both parties at the White House, bluntly challenged Republicans a day after Speaker John A. Boehner pulled back from a far-reaching agreement aimed at saving as much as $4 trillion over 10 years, officials briefed on the negotiations said. The meeting ended after an hour and 15 minutes with little progress, but the two sides agreed to resume talking Monday, and every day after that, until a deal is done.

White House officials said Mr. Obama was still determined to pursue the boldest package possible — one that would require new tax revenue as well as cuts in Medicare and other entitlement programs — but he faces steadfast opposition from Republicans and growing qualms among Democrats.


Wow. So obama's gonna cut social and life support for millions of lay people at a time like this! What are these guys thinking, one has to wonder sometimes...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

devaraj_d wrote:I visited a small but very impressive company in Germany. It is doing stuff what both India and China cannot do.
Exactly what is that 'stuff' would you care to elaborate. These days nothing is un-doable.
Switzerland---Do you know it is the most industrialized country in the world on industries on a geographical area basis? (I am just including Switzerland for information although it is not part of Euro).
Switzerland is the land of corruption money which is the primary source of income - tax evasion, bribery, looted wealth, mafia money all stashed in their (till recently) secret bank accounts..etc. They have some good global brands like Nestle. Plus they promote their swiss frank as a global currency & their financial industry for wealth management for the safety trade.

Although how anyone can consider a country where the primary source of revenue is corrution money as being safe i have yet to understand.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

US has had a monopoly on rating other countries debts while rating its own over-indebtedness with a perfect score of AAA. However US rating agencies reputation fell off a cliff during the real estate blowup. Rating companies setup by China are challenging US rating agencies (Moody's, Fitch, S&P) on the perfect score they have given the US.

Now US & China's rating agencies are duking it out downgrading each others creditworthyness. :lol: US does not even want to recognize China's rating agency and refused its application to operate in the US.

------

Rating Agency Wars 2: The New Evil Empire Strikes Back - Dagong Says Likely To Downgrade US Even If Debt Limit Raised

When on July 4 we reported the patriotic decision by Moody's to suddenly discover that up to 10% of China's GDP is concentrated in previously undisclosed bad debt, we suggest that "Dagong downgrades the US to junk status in 5, 4, 3..." Well, it's one and a half. China Daily has just reported that according to the notorious abovementioned Dagong rating agency, "The US' sovereign credit rating is likely to be downgraded regardless of whether the US Congress reaches an agreement on raising its statutory debt limit. "If the debt limit is raised and the public debt continues to grow, it will further damage the US' debt-paying ability, which is a key factor in Dagong's evaluation, and we will consider lowering its ratings accordingly," said Guan Jianzhong, chairman and CEO of Dagong. "If the raised limit fails to pass and the US faces default, the rating will be immediately and substantially downgraded," he said. According to Guan, the downgrading is really just "a matter of time and extent". And if Europe is suffering now, after Moody's has discovered religion and is slapping ratings downgrades at each and every PIIG, just wait until the global Nash equilibrium collapse in the rating agency Ponzi preservation prerogative goes trans-Pacific. Because following the imminent Dagong downgrade, Moody's and S&P will retaliate yet again, this time likely throwing Japan into the fray yet again, until such time as virtually the entire overleveraged world declares any and all rating agency employees persona non-grata.

The SEC, which has taken the time to log out from whichever p.o.r.n server is the choice du jour, had something to say: :rotfl:
The US Securities and Exchange Commission denied Dagong's application for Nationally Recognized Statistical Rating Organization (NRSRO) status because it is not able to implement cross-border supervision to the agency.


http://www.zerohedge.com/article/rating ... -if-debt-l
Last edited by Neshant on 13 Jul 2011 13:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by pradeepe »

devaraj_d wrote: I visited a small but very impressive company in Germany. It is doing stuff what both India and China cannot do.
Sir, why bring in India. You probably didnt mean it in that sense. But I am tired of folks telling us what we can and cannot do. What do they do, cr*p golden bricks every morning.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by devaraj_d »

Neshant wrote:
devaraj_d wrote:I visited a small but very impressive company in Germany. It is doing stuff what both India and China cannot do.
Exactly what is that 'stuff' would you care to elaborate. These days nothing is un-doable.

It is related to an automotive component. I am afraid I do not want to elaborate more than this in a public forum due to confidentiality issues.
Switzerland---Do you know it is the most industrialized country in the world on industries on a geographical area basis? (I am just including Switzerland for information although it is not part of Euro).
Switzerland is the land of corruption money which is the primary source of income - tax evasion, bribery, looted wealth, mafia money all stashed in their (till recently) secret bank accounts..etc. They have some good global brands like Nestle. Plus they promote their swiss frank as a global currency & their financial industry for wealth management for the safety trade.

Although how anyone can consider a country where the primary source of revenue is corrution money as being safe i have yet to understand.
I agree fully with you. I just mentioned Switzerland for their industrialization.
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