Bangladesh News and Discussion

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 11 Jul 2011 09:36

Mollycoddling Islamist nations, declaring land swap to be AOK by such genuine arguments as "by all accounts" (whatever that means) and pontificating about US-Canada like relationships with BD (a country which has nearly wiped out its Hindu population) - is the kind of rancid ideological thinking about Indian security interests, which leads our neighbors to think its AOK to murder Indians ceaselessly.

Such naivete or is it malfeasance is precious.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 11 Jul 2011 09:50

From http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 53636.html

100 injured in B''desh clash over Allah

From Anisur Rahman Dhaka, July 10 (PTI) At least 100 people were injured in violent clashes in Bangladesh, as activists backed by radical Jamaat-i-Islami enforced a 30-hour general strike from today demanding restoration of the word "Allah" in the recently amended Constitution.Right wing activists equipped with bamboo sticks and stones erected blockades on the major Dhaka-Chittagong Highway near suburban river port town of Narayanganj, prompting interventions of policemen, sparking the violent clash.They were demanding that Absolute Faith and Trust in "Allah" instead of "creator" be restored in the recently amended constitution.

Of course "by all accounts" these guys above and their brethren, will begin to act like Canadians do with the US, as soon as we give up our land to them.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 11 Jul 2011 15:18

Rajesh,

A land swap is not a bad idea. That way no land is lost. However, the idea has to be sold to the Bdeshi Govt. effectively.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Jul 2011 15:47

somnath wrote:The land swap deal, by all accounts, beneficial to both parties - it formalises the border fully, removes ambiguities and should be a net "reducer" of illegal immigration...There is a political consensus on the issue, at Centre, in WB - so it can be a part of the entire package of BD policy initative..

If GoI can get a land swap deal with zero net land loss for India, then it is a good deal. No 10,000 acres should be gifted to Bangladesh. Bangladesh is free to offer 10,000 acres of land somewhere else to compensate for the extra 10,000 acres of land India turns over as conclaves.

If GoI cannot manage that, than GoI is a lousy negotiator, and is selling Indian land down the drain.

Secondly we don't want simply a solution to a reduced illegal immigration, we want a solution to the deportation of Bangladeshis who already live in India, and have done a demographic and political engineering on India. Illegal Immigration is against Indian Law.

So why is GoI still allowing it? Does GoI have solutions for that?

Once GoI starts delivering on that, then one can certainly talk of baseless fears of Islamists!

The problem is the Indian Establishment of pseudo-seculars and Islamism-apologists have simply failed to deliver solutions.

It is not about ideology. It is about the inability of a government to uphold the rule of law and in fact conspiring to subvert India's national interests by accepting all those illegal immigrants.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jul 2011 17:28

RajeshA wrote:Secondly we don't want simply a solution to a reduced illegal immigration, we want a solution to the deportation of Bangladeshis who already live in India, and have done a demographic and political engineering on India. Illegal Immigration is against Indian Law.

The issue of illegal immigration isnt one of "lets kick their butts out"....Even countries protected by the sea cannot prevent illegal immigrants from coming in, and dont manage to deport a fraction of those who have...For countries with populated land borders, the problem is more complex - if US were to deport even 5% of the Mexicans illegally living there, well...

Immigration is largely an economic phenomenon..Therefore tools to manage it are also economic...There are multiple alternatives - work permit is one...In the US, they tried out the Macquiladoras..But a legal work permit system increases the stakes for everyone, especially the "source country" to preserve the legal status quo, and reduces incentives for the illegal route...Plus, it prevents anomalies like ration cards and voter IDs being given to the immigrants...Once a work permit with clear civic/economic rights and duties are issued, the immigrant isnt going to pay money to get a voter ID...The incremental problem is solved substantially...The legacy is solved by the demonstration effect...People living illegally are incentivised to formalse their economic status by getting the worlk permits......

There are no perfect answers, but you get the drift...

At a larger level, restricting the narrative to illegal immigration and islamism takes us nowhere w.r.t increasing strategic space for ourselves in BD...No one's saying that border security should be relaxed, or the fence brought down...By all means lets have 20 more battalions of BSF, and electrify the fence too! None of that needs any "engagement" with BD..But what next? How do we increase our influence with BD?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 11 Jul 2011 17:31

^^^
Rajesh A garu,
I don't know where this 10,000 acres land transfer came from. It is equivalant to 3.5 times the entire Cooch-behar district which is only 2,500 acres. So is WB ready to move the populations from several districts to somewhere to do the land deal? This is something never heard off. I do not know if this can even fly. We need real details of this stupid deal being discussed.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jul 2011 17:44

Muppalla wrote:^^^
Rajesh A garu,
I don't know where this 10,000 acres land transfer came from. It is equivalant to 3.5 times the entire Cooch-behar district which is only 2,500 acres. So is WB ready to move the populations from several districts to somewhere to do the land deal? This is something never heard off. I do not know if this can even fly. We need real details of this stupid deal being discussed.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding with the "land transfer" matter...The scenario is like this - India has a bunch of enclaves (106) within BD territory, and BD has 92 in Indian territory...The peculiar scenario was apparetntly the result of a card game between the Raja of Cooch Behar and Nawab of Rangpur...The Indian enclaves inside BD have no connectivity to mainland India (and vice versa), and as a redult, limited access to services, amenities etc...The idea is to absorb these on an "as is where is" basis...So the 106 BD enclaves in India will become Indian territory and vice versa for BD...The loss is the difference in the size of the respective enclaves, in aggregate terms...

Net net, there is very little physical "land transfer" that is going to happen, if at all...A piece of land already inside BD is going to be merged with BD and ditto for India...

In fact these BD enclaves within India are a big source of illegal immigration into India - they have easier access into India than to BD!

The other issue is about people residing in thoese enclaves - but that is something that can be managed...

So all this propaganda about land being "ceded" etc is a bit of a red herring....

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jul 2011 18:25

It is hilarious to see two contradictory arguments being pushed at the same time through the same voice - desperate to pleas the Islamophiles at Centre and WB:

(1) "illegal immigration" can after all be tackled by economic measures onlee, and no amount of physical "barriers/measures" can solve the problem.

(2) it is soooo important to allow the "physical" measure of the land-swap to consolidate Indian holdings to reduce "illegal immigration". The "enclaves" are soooo dangerous because they facilitate "illegal immigration".

"Population swaps" are fantasies/unrealistic. Naturally! For those onlee interested in financial profits, naturally, people are just commodities - their onlee value lies if the financial whizkid can make a profit out of selling them in more ways than one.

If the land-swap goes through, and that is desirable because it "consolidates" Indian holdings, and reduces the "financial costs" of maintaining "enclaves" [because that is the sole concern of the mercantile mentality financial-flows onlee whizkids] - what happens to the people on those enclaves?

Do you give them the option of choosing between citizenships? To migrate to the country of their citizenship? Or you make them automatically citizens of the consolidated territory that is now homogenized with the surrounding nation?

What is the "realistic" scenario? Almost all "Indian" citizens in Indian enclaves in BD will want to remain "Indian". Almost all BD citizens in BD enclaves within India will also want to remain Indian. There will be a host of other practical problems too - of land ownership, valuation, and emotional and other ties.

Net-net - another round of non-Muslim refugees from BD into India, and absorption of more BD Muslims through the BD enclaves into India permanently as citizens of India. But the refugees from BD will not be given land here, not anywhere they can settle normally anyway! Do the financial whizkids also keep in mind the electoral equations by which their favourite Islamophile parties stay in power?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 11 Jul 2011 18:51

Somnath,

I will disagree with you on the nature of migration. The Muslim migration is economic but the Hindu/Buddhist migration is largely because of communal persecution.

Anindya,

I have not disputed Benkin's report on persecution. It is a reality that minorities live with in Bd.

Rajesh,

The NDA Govt. ammended the Citizenship Act. So Bd and Pakis are denied citizenship. Needs to be seen how it is implemented on the ground e.g. how will they discriminate between legal citizens and illegals when they give Adhaar numbers.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jul 2011 19:00

Supratik wrote:I will disagree with you on the nature of migration. The Muslim migration is economic but the Hindu/Buddhist migration is largely because of communal persecution.

You might be right - no issues...But the migration that really gets people's goats is the muslim migration, isnt it? And thats economic in nature...That is also an overwhelming majority of immigrants - the solution therefore has to concentrate on the motives there...

If anything, cooperative structures like work permit will increase our leverage with BD on a range of issues..So our "quota" of work permits can be modified, year on year, on the basis of our perception of how hindus are being treated in BD - as an example...The basic idea is to create "leverage" within the BD system to get our way...That cannot be done by bluster and rhetoric...

Its also a bit ironic to see people shedding tears about the plight of the residents in enclaves, post a settlement..Shows their rank unfamiliarity with the problem....These enclaves currently get no services from either India or BD - lack of access and lack of intent, both are responsible...At the margin, the Indian citizens would be worse off, as quality of Indian civic services would be arguably better...A settlement will mean that each country will extend normal services to the enclaves as per its own standards....

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 11 Jul 2011 19:01

"So no one wants them, or are willing to face up to BD Islamists on behalf of them, and because they are Hindus - they will not also get any support in the global perspective which will support such causes onlee if they come from an Abrahamic background, preferably Muslim "victims" like in Croatia/Serbia, [or BD '71], or Christian ones like in East Timor or Bougainville, or south Sudan. Hindus can never be allowed to be seen as victims, they must always be painted as "casteist oppressors", especially where Islamist reputation is at stake."

Part of the problem is that Hindu victims of terror don't speak up or identify themselves. The Indian, let alone the international, media is not going to chase after these people to show what sufferings they have gone through. Let them see Hindus who have suffered lost limbs, lost hearing or sight etc from Islamist bombings. Today is the 5th anniversary of the horrible Mumbai train attacks( July 11th/2006), and there should be some people remembering that day, and telling us how they have coped.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jul 2011 19:07

The whole p-secular p-nationalist section of "Hindus" would have even a louder din saying how communal that show of lost-limbs is - that violence was "secular" in nature onlee - nothing connected to Islam. In fact, for Mumbai, onlee Muslim victims may be put up for show in the media, to burn the image of the "secular" "nature" of the violence into viewers minds, and to ensure that the "Hindu" suffering gets displaced from coverage [it will strengthen the "saffron" and weaken Islamophile legitimacy of Congress-Left - hence cannot be allowed].

The "Hindu" elite bootlickers will do their masters bidding and the hindu victims know very well that any protest/attempt at raising the real picture is going to be horribly penalized by all forces.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Jul 2011 19:14

Supratik wrote:The Muslim migration is economic but the Hindu/Buddhist migration is largely because of communal persecution.

That is from the PoV of the migrant, but from the PoV of land of immigration it is different. For India, the Muslim migration is a demographic invasion, while the Hindu/Buddhist migration is a responsibility of conscience.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jul 2011 19:19

Ah now the anti population-exchangers have neatly avoided the citizenship problems, and started shedding crocodile tears for "conditions in enclaves"! But the main problem still remains that if the Indian enclave in BD population is absorbed into BD, they would be subject to continued islamist atrocities - and BD gains a bit more of Hindu populations to use as ransom to extract "investments/concessions" all the while selectively bleeding them [abduct the women as generations continue, for example - like allowing the tree to stand to pluck the fruits every year]. In time, those Hindu populations left at BD mercy will be evicted from their land, the more attractive women retained in mullah hands, and the remainder forced to seek illegal refuge back in India.

Of course the Congress-Left-Islamophile-bootlicking voices here would not support such behaviour. It hurts muslim sentiments on Indian side, exposes the real Islamophile nature of Delhi-based Congress-Leftist coteries, and shows Islamism in bad light.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Jul 2011 19:54

somnath wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Secondly we don't want simply a solution to a reduced illegal immigration, we want a solution to the deportation of Bangladeshis who already live in India, and have done a demographic and political engineering on India. Illegal Immigration is against Indian Law.
The issue of illegal immigration isnt one of "lets kick their butts out"....Even countries protected by the sea cannot prevent illegal immigrants from coming in, and dont manage to deport a fraction of those who have...For countries with populated land borders, the problem is more complex - if US were to deport even 5% of the Mexicans illegally living there, well...

somnath ji,

Western countries have a much higher degree of "human rights" and "respect of legal process". In India, in practice, we are nowhere there. That is a weakness. But that is a weakness we can use as a strength. Things that are not possible in Western countries, can be possible in India.

If we are too weak, to uphold the law to keep illegal immigrants out, then we might as well be too "weak" to give them a fair process! So we should go for controversial ways of kicking their butts out.

Round off the illegals, and start industrial-level transport of them through big ships transporting them to just off the Bangladeshi coast, where one can dump them into boats, and they are transported to land.

The processes of determination of their illegal status can also be undertaken by dedicated authorities.

Now I don't really care, why they don't do it in USA, but that has no bearing on whether we do it or not.

All this, "we can't do it" is defeatist talk, and this "others can't do it" are sorry excuses. I haven't heard from you one reason, why we cannot in practice kick some butt and throw them out.

What I would like to know is what are the problems in the above process, so that one can think of ways how to redress those chinks.

somnath wrote:Immigration is largely an economic phenomenon..Therefore tools to manage it are also economic...There are multiple alternatives - work permit is one...In the US, they tried out the Macquiladoras..But a legal work permit system increases the stakes for everyone, especially the "source country" to preserve the legal status quo, and reduces incentives for the illegal route...Plus, it prevents anomalies like ration cards and voter IDs being given to the immigrants...Once a work permit with clear civic/economic rights and duties are issued, the immigrant isnt going to pay money to get a voter ID...The incremental problem is solved substantially...The legacy is solved by the demonstration effect...People living illegally are incentivised to formalse their economic status by getting the worlk permits......

This is bringing in only more Bangladeshi immigrants into India. It is not solving the problem of illegal Bangladeshi immigrants already in India. The legacy is not solved, because there is no incentive for work permit if one thinks one already has the citizenship and one is secure on this side of the border.

The work permit is a horrible idea, which does nothing to solve the problem of legacy, but only increases the problem.

somnath wrote:There are no perfect answers, but you get the drift...

The only drift I get is, that you are either unable to think of answers, or you won't think of answers!

somnath wrote:At a larger level, restricting the narrative to illegal immigration and islamism takes us nowhere w.r.t increasing strategic space for ourselves in BD...No one's saying that border security should be relaxed, or the fence brought down...By all means lets have 20 more battalions of BSF, and electrify the fence too! None of that needs any "engagement" with BD..But what next? How do we increase our influence with BD?

At the larger level, the powers that be, who have developed a vested interest in giving voter IDs to illegal immigrants, too need to be kicked in the butt. Why is that narrative suppressed? Can it be, that today the narrative would not be dominated by "illegal immigration" and "Islamism", if India had taken the narrative of "illegal vote banks" seriously. Can it be that the same parties, who suppressed the "illegal vote banks" narrative are now trying to suppress the "illegal immigration" and "islamism" narrative.

The narratives are there, because they are serious issues. Solve those issues, and the narrative can move forward.

Dumping illegal immigrants off the coast of Bangladesh, also does not require any "engagement" with Bangladesh. It too can be undertaken unilaterally, as Bangladesh does not really want to cooperate with us on the issue of "illegal immigrants".

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 11 Jul 2011 20:50

People posting in this thread must bear in mind that rollback of BD infiltration i.e. deportation is not possible. How do you identify an infiltrator? People have bonafide documentation to prove themselves. Among them are state govt. employees, municipal councilors, political figures. They are well entrenched.

On top of that oil drops have expanded in all districts to get past 30% mark and they decide poll outcomes. So, any political party will indulge in appeasement.

With respect to the majority community, Bengal is total FUBAR case, being p-sec is a way of life. People here (can't even call them Hindus) would never get their acts together either due to p-secness or ignorance. Maybe due to both the reasons.

Mind you these animals would burden other states when Bengal is lost.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Jul 2011 21:30

SRoy wrote:People posting in this thread must bear in mind that rollback of BD infiltration i.e. deportation is not possible. How do you identify an infiltrator? People have bonafide documentation to prove themselves. Among them are state govt. employees, municipal councilors, political figures. They are well entrenched.

All Bengali Muslims need to prove anew that their parents or grandparents were living in India in the late 1950s, when the Partition-related migration came to an end. That is the only way. The burden of proof is on the Bengali Muslim.

We need to be building software, which allows a better cross-referencing.

While they prove, their biometrics need to be taken down - their fingerprints, their retinal-scans, their biometric photos, any photos they can provide of their childhood, which shows that they were in India beforehand. Data on their whole network of marital and blood relations needs to be taken down.

Historical Evidence and Data on their families w.r.t.

blood relations
marital relations
place of residence
study
employment
birth certificates
membership of various organizations
voter identification, ration cards

Mind you, this is all data on their family and not just on them.

This needs to be cross-referenced with all historical data one can find:

birth registrations in hospitals
marriage registrations
school records
residence evidence - electricity connections, ration card registrations, building records, house ownership records
company and government employment records - income evidence, work position evidence, etc.

Anywhere somebody lies, he would be designated illegal Bangladeshi immigrant.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 11 Jul 2011 21:50

RajeshA wrote:
SRoy wrote:People posting in this thread must bear in mind that rollback of BD infiltration i.e. deportation is not possible. How do you identify an infiltrator? People have bonafide documentation to prove themselves. Among them are state govt. employees, municipal councilors, political figures. They are well entrenched.
All Bengali Muslims need to prove anew that their parents or grandparents were living in India in the late 1950s, when the Partition-related migration came to an end. That is the only way. The burden of proof is on the Bengali Muslim.

There are two problems here.
One, by prescribing the procedure only for Bengali Muslims, you make the option officially a no-go from the very outset. This is a very slippery slop. It would be XYZ Muslims next at any other trouble spot.

Second, people have been going back and forth for a long time. You must be aware that the borders were open till 1965 and people had family and property spread across the border. Hence, "living" is a illusory term. How about people spending 6 months on either side every year?

Why do we always try to escape the real issues? Is infiltration per se is a problem or is that the fact that a certain community due to sustained infiltration have changed the demographic profile in-conducive to our security interests?

It would appear to me that by selectively overlooking certain patterns of infiltration would have strengthened our border districts (of course at economic cost)?

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 11 Jul 2011 21:58

RajeshA wrote:
SRoy wrote:People posting in this thread must bear in mind that rollback of BD infiltration i.e. deportation is not possible. How do you identify an infiltrator? People have bonafide documentation to prove themselves. Among them are state govt. employees, municipal councilors, political figures. They are well entrenched.
All Bengali Muslims need to prove anew that their parents or grandparents were living in India in the late 1950s, when the Partition-related migration came to an end. That is the only way. The burden of proof is on the Bengali Muslim.

We need to be building software, which allows a better cross-referencing.

While they prove, their biometrics need to be taken down - their fingerprints, their retinal-scans, their biometric photos, any photos they can provide of their childhood, which shows that they were in India beforehand. Data on their whole network of marital and blood relations needs to be taken down.

Historical Evidence and Data on their families w.r.t.

blood relations

marital relations

place of residence

study

employment

birth certificates

membership of various organizations

voter identification, ration cards
Mind you, this is all data on their family and not just on them.

This needs to be cross-referenced with all historical data one can find:

birth registrations in hospitals

marriage registrations

school records

residence evidence - electricity connections, ration card registrations, building records, house ownership records

company and government employment records - income evidence, work position evidence, etc.
Anywhere somebody lies, he would be designated illegal Bangladeshi immigrant.

You know what? The way the commies ran the state, some portion of the Hindu population would perhaps be lining up for deportation. You do realize these list of documents never be produced by villagers, even if the present ones does their parents that lived in 50s cannot do to prove their citizenship.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 11 Jul 2011 22:05

somnath wrote:
Muppalla wrote:^^^
Rajesh A garu,
I don't know where this 10,000 acres land transfer came from. It is equivalant to 3.5 times the entire Cooch-behar district which is only 2,500 acres. So is WB ready to move the populations from several districts to somewhere to do the land deal? This is something never heard off. I do not know if this can even fly. We need real details of this stupid deal being discussed.
I think there is a lot of misunderstanding with the "land transfer" matter...The scenario is like this - India has a bunch of enclaves (106) within BD territory, and BD has 92 in Indian territory...The peculiar scenario was apparetntly the result of a card game between the Raja of Cooch Behar and Nawab of Rangpur...The Indian enclaves inside BD have no connectivity to mainland India (and vice versa), and as a redult, limited access to services, amenities etc...The idea is to absorb these on an "as is where is" basis...So the 106 BD enclaves in India will become Indian territory and vice versa for BD...The loss is the difference in the size of the respective enclaves, in aggregate terms...

Net net, there is very little physical "land transfer" that is going to happen, if at all...A piece of land already inside BD is going to be merged with BD and ditto for India...

In fact these BD enclaves within India are a big source of illegal immigration into India - they have easier access into India than to BD!

The other issue is about people residing in thoese enclaves - but that is something that can be managed...

So all this propaganda about land being "ceded" etc is a bit of a red herring....

Does anyone have details of the 106 enclaves and 92 enclaves and size of each of them? A map or a list with locations etc? Thanks

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Jul 2011 00:27

SRoy wrote:
SRoy wrote:People posting in this thread must bear in mind that rollback of BD infiltration i.e. deportation is not possible. How do you identify an infiltrator? People have bonafide documentation to prove themselves. Among them are state govt. employees, municipal councilors, political figures. They are well entrenched.
RajeshA wrote:All Bengali Muslims need to prove anew that their parents or grandparents were living in India in the late 1950s, when the Partition-related migration came to an end. That is the only way. The burden of proof is on the Bengali Muslim.
There are two problems here.
One, by prescribing the procedure only for Bengali Muslims, you make the option officially a no-go from the very outset. This is a very slippery slop. It would be XYZ Muslims next at any other trouble spot.

SRoy ji,

Partition is a fact. The reasons for Partition were also a fact. The country was divided on the basis of demands for a separate Muslim state. Bengali Muslims were at the forefront of Partition as well. Both Punjab and Bengal were divided. Punjabi Muslims ended up in West Pakistan. A majority of Bengali Muslims ended up in East Pakistan.

Today, even in the Citizenship Act

Citizenship by birth
Any person born in India, on or after 26 January 1950 but prior to the commencement of the 1986 Act on 1 July 1987 is a citizen of India by birth. A person born in India on or after 1 July 1987 is a citizen of India if either parent was a citizen of India at the time of the birth. Those born in India on or after 3 December 2004 are considered citizens of India only if both of their parents are citizens of India or if one parent is a citizen of India and the other is not an illegal migrant at the time of their birth the citizen can be an Indian or a foreigner

Overseas Citizen of India

The Central Indian Government, on application, may register any person as an Overseas Citizen of India if that Person is of Indian Origin and is from a country which allows dual citizenship in some form or the other. Broadly speaking, a "Person of Indian Origin" is a citizen of another country who:

was a citizen of India on 26 January 1950 or at any time thereafter; or

belonged to a territory that became part of India after the 15 August 1947; or

is the child or grandchild of a person described above; and

has never been a citizen of Pakistan or Bangladesh.

Citizens of Pakistan and Bangladesh are treated differently. So too are the off-springs of illegal migrants to India.

India can require some Indian Muslim to prove that he is not a Pakistani or a Bangladeshi, by just providing some proof that he is the necessary papers. Indian Government can on an individual basis express suspicions about the citizenship of an individual residing in India. Otherwise any Pakistani or Bangladeshi can claim he is an Indian, and the authorities cannot do anything about it. So suspecting somebody to be a Pakistani or Bangladeshi is normal. Such suspicions would fall on those who are Muslims, simply because the majority in Pakistan and Bangladesh is Muslim, and it is more probable that a Pakistani or Bangladeshi Muslim would be in India, rather than one from a minority. So one searches among the Muslims for illegals.

Now casting some suspicion on an individual's nationality by the Indian authorities can be considered normal, if they have some grounds to suspect.

This behavior by the GoI can however not be translated into suspecting a whole religiously-identified community to be Pakistani or Bangladeshi. This is true, unless somebody is ethnically Bengali or Punjabi. Why? Because these were the two states which were partitioned. This creates the exception. This exception allows India to treat Bengali Muslims differently than say U.P. Muslims.

Considering that there is a serious problem with illegal migration from Bangladesh, Indian authorities can request Bengali Muslims who are genuinely citizens of India to cooperate with the authorities, as a form of national duty.

If some Bengali Muslim can prove that he is a genuine citizens of India, they would of course be allowed to stay and thanked for their cooperation.

SRoy wrote:Second, people have been going back and forth for a long time. You must be aware that the borders were open till 1965 and people had family and property spread across the border. Hence, "living" is a illusory term. How about people spending 6 months on either side every year?

Well if Bengali Muslims can prove that they retained ownership of land on this side of the border, that would be something that would count in their favor, especially if their progeny too can prove that they resided in India, and in fact decided in favor of India.

Just because there will be some cases like this, does not mean one should throw up one's hands and say nothing can be done. Such cases may not amount to even 1% of all those who would have to be reexamined.

SRoy wrote:Why do we always try to escape the real issues? Is infiltration per se is a problem or is that the fact that a certain community due to sustained infiltration have changed the demographic profile in-conducive to our security interests?

It would appear to me that by selectively overlooking certain patterns of infiltration would have strengthened our border districts (of course at economic cost)?

The real issue is of course that the infiltration has changed the demographic profile not conducive to our security interests or for that matter for social harmony or for that matter the mission of dharmic renaissance in India. Now the last concern may not be a secular concern, but a community as citizens has a right to demand that their representation in the constituency's reflection of concerns not be diluted through illegal means, e.g. through illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is an unjust form of distortion of the mandate of the people of a constituency or a state or a country.

There cannot be an issue more real than that.

SRoy wrote:You know what? The way the commies ran the state, some portion of the Hindu population would perhaps be lining up for deportation. You do realize these list of documents never be produced by villagers, even if the present ones does their parents that lived in 50s cannot do to prove their citizenship.

Well one would have to than interview Hindus who are still alive and lived in various villages, to describe the make-up of their villages, and communities and about their Muslim neighbors if they can remember any. The cross-referencing of data gathered through interviews with many people, about their family trees, etc. would help to gain a better understanding of who was living where and when.

Hindu population need not be deported, as I mentioned earlier, for India should give the Hindus from Bangladesh the right to claim asylum in India due to their ill-treatment in Bangladesh. If there is grounds to believe, that a certain Hindu family is from Bangladesh, they can be asked to prove that they are in fact Hindus over a given period of time, say through certificates from some recognized Hindu religious authority, etc..

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 12 Jul 2011 01:57

There is something seriously wrong with this dhaaga, gives me a serious headache. Lest it be misconstrued, let me put together issues that are important in India-Bangladesh relations. I would argue that there is a big difference between an issue (in terms of foreign, economic and strategic policy) with respect to an irritant.

Issues:
1) Water issues with Bangladesh -- Teesta and Feni rivers along with the festering lack of confidence due to a perceived Indian unilateral action at the Farakkha Barrage. There have been many incidents in the past such as with Tipaimukh where Bangladesh has openly helped planks in India (Manipur, specifically) to ensure the safety of its river flows. As China will continue to dam more of the Brahmaputra, Bangladesh will suffer the most. Plus, the high cyanide content in the surface water will ensure a huge burden on whatever limited potable water that is available. Global warming and the consequent rise in sea levels and pushing of Bangladeshis to upstream locations will ensure an even higher stress. Morally speaking, unbeknownst to much of India, there is a brewing water crisis evolving in not-so-slow-motion in Bangladesh that could become a potential water war in the not-so-near-future. A regional water-sharing agreement along the lines of Indus Water Treaty with India, China, Bangladesh, Burma and Thailand is the need of the hour, but the upper riparian in this matter will pursue a cold water war strategy unless forced to see reason.
2) Harboring of terrorists -- Various groups such as ULFA, NDFB, NSCN(IM), KLO, NLFT, ATTF etc. have been harbored in Bangladesh in the past and continue to be as we speak. The opposite case of Shanti Bahini is a moot point because as per the agreement with the Sh. Hasina government and the previous regimes, these have now been disbanded. It is Bangladesh's interest to catch and hand over these terrorists as have happened in the recent past. This is just their duty, not an action that has to be seen in compassionate terms as they have been willingly harbored as pawns in a chess game.
3) Illegal immigration -- Bangladesh is one of the few countries (perhaps along with some regions of India) where population growth has not stabilized. With an area or an economy that is not expanding at a commensurate rate, this puts a massive stress on the available resources. In short, this problem cannot be handled by Bangladesh and often gets diverted to India, which borders it on three sides. In India, this problem is seen in terms of the illegal immigration issue. It is not a wishful or a fantastical conspiracy theory, but Demographic change in the border districts of West Bengal and Assam is a reality. It is more of a status quo in terms of politicians of different hues in West Bengal and Assam. There is really not much that can be done to fix this mess in the short-term, especially those who are already in. The fences are being built, but the progress is slow at best especially given the changing riverine border profile and natural calamities that lay to waste 2-3 years of hard work (e.g., Cyclone Aila). Just as with the border with Pakistan, maintaining the border fences is a continual task and not a once-in-a-life time event. Further, a BSF estimate shows that most of the illegal immigration is happening in the riverine territory than in fenced areas. Riverine structure make ~1/3 of the demarcated borders, so there is really not much that can be done except a huge vigil and raising multiple battalions of BSF. India needs to do more by seeking the judicial route in this matter vis-a-vis the implementation of the various stipulations under the IMDT Act that have been suspended. The case of D-Voters can be a test case in this matter. All this requires political will, unfortunate as it does not exist in India in a broad measure. Similarly, labor shortage cannot be wished away by grandiose claims to making Indians work harder.
4) Trans-shipment issues -- If Bangladesh wants to economically tie itself to the Indian growth engine, it has to see reason and enable trans-shipment of goods from India to Indian territories in the Northeast. A regional hub that helps Bhutan, East Nepal, parts of Burma and parts of Yunnan will only ensure the economic benefits for Bangladesh. Acting unilaterally and contrary to normative discourse as happened with the Asian Highway is only a fruitless path to hell. India (and especially parts of Tripura and Meghalaya) stand to gain a lot by having a shorter route to the Bay of Bengal and it should not be surprising that these states are at the forefront of the trans-shipment issue. But then, the concerns within the Indian establishment of its periphery better connected to foreign nations than to the mainland is not to be dismissed as flightful fancies of fear.
5) Sea boundary demarcation -- India and Bangladesh have reasonably wisened up to the possibility of joint exploration of contentious water blocks for oil exploration purposes. The same cannot be said about Burma and Bangladesh. There is an imminent possibility of a war between the trigger-happy (despite a numerically minority armed forces strength) Burmans and the Bangladeshis and India will be forced to pick sides rather than advise from a cautionary role.
6) Enclaves, advervse possessions and beyond -- Enclaves are pieces of territory contiguous and inside India (and Bangladesh) that are rightfully owned by the other Government. Adverse possessions are pieces of char (riverine) territory that are illegally occupied by the other Government. In terms of enclaves, we have the complicated of issue of even an enclave within an enclave within an enclave. Unfortunate as it is, this issue is best resolved by the future generations. Emotionally traumatic as is the case with people in these territories, there is really not much of a solution that is not zero-sum.

Irritants:
1) BSF is trigger-happy -- Whatever be the accusations against BSF, these deaths of smugglers of phenisidyl, cows, people, and merchandise under the illegal economy are dwarfed significantly by encounter deaths by the RAB. Not to compare apples with oranges, the BSF is doing a thankless job in a hostile atmosphere and no amount of vilification is going to change course.
2) Power sector unification -- Not happening not only in the medium-term, but also in the long term. Bangladesh is a power deficient economy with a big anti-India bandwagon. Anyone who denies the presence of this contingent has to only note the fact that even after 40 years of independence, people such as Golam Azam and the various Razakars are walking free in Bangladesh even today.
3) They will continue to hate us -- It is a fancy that Bangladesh can be unified into India as it stands today. It is another fancy that we should try. Even within India, there are multiple states where hatred to the government in Delhi is harbored in different forms and all it takes for this expression to come to the forefront is an incident of opportunism. Our neighbors will continue to hate us, because they hate the idea of India and the idea of India poses an existential question to them. Success of India results in further questions and as India succeeds more and more, questions become a comparison, then a crisis, and later a calamity. The twine will not meet and it is best accepted that they will not.
4) Treatment of minorities -- Unfortunate as it is, our policy (from Panchsheel to our secular polity to our non-interference as stated by our No-First Use) means that India really does not have much say in the internal affairs of other countries. Broadly speaking, while Hindus in India can and should have an empathy to the fellow Hindus of other countries, Constitutionally speaking, unless India amends its Constitution to become a Hindu nation with all the attendant baggage (reactions from other countries, etc.), we do not stand much in raising the issues of others on a priority basis. There is going to be no sea change in terms of priorities of the babus even if political tidings change on a democratic whim. All the above is true even if Bangladesh or even Pakistan can and often do raise issues on how India treats its minorities. The best retort to this matter is "India does not encourage meddling by other countries in its internal affairs nor does it meddle in the internal affairs of other countries."
5) Various cases in Bangladesh that are important to India in terms of their evolution -- the 10 truck arms-haul case, murder of SAMS Kibria, bomb thrown at Sh. Hasina, Pilkhana carnage trials, the 71 Razakar case. In India, it is normative to wait for decades to see a judicial light and to fruition the path of retribution for the victims, and it would be unfair to criticize Bangladesh in this matter. Nevertheless, important verdicts have been delivered in India on a priority basis despite the numerous stallings and stillbirths, and it would be expected that a question as basic as whether someone acted against Bangladeshi interests or not in the War of Independence would be settled early.
6) Easing of trade barriers -- Again these are matters that can be resolved under the stipulations of WTO, but it is not illegal under these stipulations to put para-tariff barriers because of quality and safety constraints. These are not institutional biases, but these are legalistic and every country pursues them. Even friends and allies pursue these measures, so there cannot be any special provisions for Bangladesh.
7) Internal politics in Bangladesh and West Bengal -- It is the policy instrument and historical baggage of Jamaat-e-Islami to hate kafir India. There is really not much to be done. Advising caution in expressing ground realities (especially if it comes from the PMO) does not solve problems or bring new solutions to the table. Further, India is a democrazy and everyone has a right to express ground realities as they perceive. Bangladesh has to seek its inner wisdom in expressing surprise at a noisy, chaotic and openly expressive India. Similarly, West Bengal and its politics are often tied to cater to its internal dynamics. The historical baggage of the region cannot be ignored at framing policy instruments or reacting to responses that have been arrived at after considerable thought by people who run the ship there.
8 ) Trade imbalances -- As India continues to get better at consuming its own raw materials and goods instead of exporting them (as is the case with cotton, cement raw materials, food grains etc.), there will be less that can be sourced from India. The reliability of India as a source of import for Bangladesh is contingent on ground realities of a growing and prosperous India. Bangladesh suffers a much higher imbalance vis-a-vis China than with India. Demonizing India while at the same time pandering to China does not augur well for the behavior of a rational nation. Surely, the negative list between India and Bangladesh have to go down, but then there are internal dynamics in India where different communities tend to lose their livelihoods if India silently accedes to Bangladeshi requests. Thus, it would be advisable for Bangladesh to understand these various dynamics instead of demonizing India for the lack of a strong reason.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 12 Jul 2011 04:41

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Enclaves, advervse possessions and beyond -- Enclaves are pieces of territory contiguous and inside India (and Bangladesh) that are rightfully owned by the other Government. Adverse possessions are pieces of char (riverine) territory that are illegally occupied by the other Government. In terms of enclaves, we have the complicated of issue of even an enclave within an enclave within an enclave. Unfortunate as it is, this issue is best resolved by the future generations. Emotionally traumatic as is the case with people in these territories, there is really not much of a solution that is not zero-sum.

I may be repeating myself but assuming you have a lot of knowledge, do you have more information on that.

This article here
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110620/j ... 135641.jsp
talks about 100,000 acres. I thought it may be 10,000 acres. However, even 10,000 acres is a lot of displacement. It is equvalant to an average of three districts. The article talks about moving the populations for those swaps. What is so crazy about these enclaves to swap and at the least why can't it be just keep what you have.

Do you have any details like maps and lists with acres level details? I think this whole swap stuff in modern era ( even if one is non-indic) is crazy.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 12 Jul 2011 04:45

I dont have complete details, but I do have some details from diverse sources. I will post when I gather all of them and do a low-pass filtering to cut out redundancies. I had been wanting to do that for a while, thanks for asking.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 12 Jul 2011 04:57

Here is one Map I found. Let us see if it makes even a sense of these swaps.

My first take is giving anything in the areas of Cooch Behar is ridiculous. Land grab is what I will appreciate. Let me see the response and arguments here to convince myself otherwise.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 12 Jul 2011 05:03

Fences will never work. The only way BD can be dragged into Indic influence is by trade and more opportunities for people on both sides. It is not sufficient that govt-govt relations are good, the relations between people have to be good on both sides. This will not happen overnight. It calls for some innovative ideas from India. And fences is not one of them. The border has to be made porous for both people. It has become like US-Canada.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 12 Jul 2011 05:07

To be fair, GoI has been extremely non-voluntary in giving its perspective. And GoBD has been quite voluntary. This is the perspective of an assie gora investigating the issue in his dissertation (again, I have no idea why an assie is so keen on these matters, but that is another issue).

In India, even if truth is on our side, it is a defeatist cause to extract information from GoI. Information is closely guarded whether it is 1962 war, Netaji's death, handover of Indian territories, or Shastri's death. Most things are covered up under the OSA, so in case the GoI gives away Indian land, we really have nowhere to file a case. In fact, again there exist precedent from the Katcchathheevu case: http://southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers4 ... r4590.html
GoI truly follows the maxim of Information is power, so it was a surprise they even came up with the RTI act.

PS: I have an open challenge, like Hilbert's 108th Problem. If you can extract useful info from GoI on the enclaves issue by filing a RTI Act, I will give you all my paycheck for 1 year

.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 12 Jul 2011 06:01

Muppalla wrote:Does anyone have details of the 106 enclaves and 92 enclaves and size of each of them? A map or a list with locations etc? Thanks

The map you posted - latest seen in the Economist current edition is a good pictorial description..For more details, I Googled for Brendan Whyte's thesis (he is quoted quite often in discussions on the issue) - here it is..

http://dtl.unimelb.edu.au/R/XHSJHK8K5EY ... ndle=GUEST

(fixed the URL)

Pretty exhaustive piece of work - has as much details as you want!

But really, there is no land being "given up", what is on our side will be absorbed by us, what is on BD side will be absorbed by them....Today, our land on "their" side isnt even accessible to us, without crossing our own fence!

It kills multiple birds - plugs a source of illegal migration, formalises the border and at a humanitarian level brings citizens of either country liing in these enclaves closer to one "civilisation" or the other...

RajeshA wrote:All Bengali Muslims need to prove anew that their parents or grandparents were living in India in the late 1950s, when the Partition-related migration came to an end. That is the only way. The burden of proof is on the Bengali Muslim.

Congratulations, you have just asked 25 million Indian citizens to prove their nationality afresh! (Wow, the last time someone spoke of something similar (though at a much, much smaller scale) was a bunch of loony thugs called the Shiv Sena - many years back, but quickly realised the fallacy of their rhetoric when in power...)..

If this is a way of creating greater "strategic space" for ourselves, well....

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 12 Jul 2011 06:24

If USA with enough money and muscle power could not control its Mexican border, what chance does India have unless it goes on wild hunting spree? There is no other place for the BDs to go, except India. The best way is to "social engineer" the people. Make them friendly to India and "Indian way of life". Anything else is futile and expensive exercise. Same strategy with Nepal, Srilanka ityadi countries. If Indians expect them to come crawling to and lick India's feet, it is not only adharmic but impractical and nonsensical.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 12 Jul 2011 06:49

SwamyG wrote:If USA with enough money and muscle power could not control its Mexican border, what chance does India have unless it goes on wild hunting spree? There is no other place for the BDs to go, except India. The best way is to "social engineer" the people. Make them friendly to India and "Indian way of life". Anything else is futile and expensive exercise. Same strategy with Nepal, Srilanka ityadi countries. If Indians expect them to come crawling to and lick India's feet, it is not only adharmic but impractical and nonsensical.

Your whole idea hinges on the bolded part, only that might be beneficial to India.

Any concrete ideas regarding that bolded part or is it the "obligatory crumbs" after giving everything away to others and mouthing platitudes for Indians ala Nehru??

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 12 Jul 2011 07:07

^^^US with its Mexican border, Italy with immigrants from North Africa, entire continental Europe with Turkish immigrants, even places like Malaysia with its poorer neighbour in Indonesia - immigration has not been tackled by a hunting expedition...

The other condition to be cognisant of is the sheer regional economics of it...Labour from the East migrate to the West and North in search of better wages - Bihari agri labour in Punjab, bengali construction labour all over..That trend has only gotten intensified as India "West of Kanpur" has grown so fast...Add to that the rollout of programmes like NREGA, which has pegged labour costs at a "minimum" level...Suddenly, you have surplus labour from BD willing to work @ a lower price being attrractive to employers in WB/NE...I call it the "funnel" movement - from WB to Delhi, from BD to WB - labour following the widening arc of prosperity...

This is an economic issue, solutions therefore will need to be primarily economic...Vigilance on the border can help, and is required, but isnt the substantive solution...

On the larger question of building "stakes" with other countries, it is almost elementary that it cant be done by bluster and threats...The carrots need to be made bigger, while the sticks used subtly, and occasionally...

there is this rubbish notion about trade concessions to BD being "crumbs" given by us..On the contrary, an FTA-type structure will accrue most additionalities to India, in trade and in macro...Individual cases of certain areas or industries notwithstanding...

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Jul 2011 07:21

Ah the great pontifcator and identifier of "loonies" among us again! Let us look at what some "loonies" suggested and acted on about this "population" "trapped" on the wrong side of the borders thingie:

Loony No. 1 - in his intense hatred for the Bengali "Hindu" -to Dr. B.C.Roy

Letter dated 16 August, 1948: I have your letter of August 4 about the refugees from East Bengal. I realize your difficulties and naturally we should do what we can to help you. But as I told you long ago there is no reasonable solution of the problem, if there is a large influx from East Bengal. That is why I have been terribly anxious throughout to prevent this, whatever might happen. I still think that every effort should be made to prevent it. I think it was a very wrong thing for some of the Hindu leaders of East Bengal to come to West Bengal.

Letter dated 22 August, 1948: I have been quite certain from the beginning that everything should be done to prevent Hindus in East Bengal from migrating to West Bengal. If that happened on a mass scale it would be a disaster of the first magnitude. Running away is never a solution to a problem. I think the Hindu leaders of East Bengal who have come away have done no service to their people. If, as you suggest, things have gone too far already, [IFFF..I DONT BELIEVE IT BUT HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING EVEN THOUGH I CONTROL THE CENTRAL GOV AND ALL INTELLEIGENCE GATHERING POWERS I WILL PRETEND THAT NOTHING WRONG IS HAPPENING TO HINDUS AT THE HANDS OF MY BELOVED MUSLIMS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORDER] naturally we shall all do what we can, but I shudder at the prospect and at the magnitude of the human misery that will come in its train[WHOSE MISERY ?- THE MISERY OF THE ISLAMISTS ON THE OTHER SIDE WHO WILL BE DEPRIVED OF THE PLEASURES OF ABDUCTIONS, LOOTINGS AND RAPINGS AND EVICTIONS]. To the last, even if there is war, I shall try to check migration.

Selected Speeches, Publications Division, Ministry of Information & Broadcasting, Volume 11, 1954:

I would like to draw your attention to another aspect of the East Bengal situation. We talk about forty lakhs of people having come away from East Bengal since the Partition. Half of them came before this year, long before this Agreement was concluded. Quite a number of them came almost immediately after the Partition, because they wanted to come away and that process, though slow, still continues. Mostly, it is the middle class elements that are leaving East Bengal on account of the pressure of circumstances. They have, in a sense, been squeezed out of East Bengal; they could not carry on their professions successfully, whether it was practice at the bar or the medical or any other profession. Many, however, stayed on. After all, you must remember that nearly a crore of Hindus are still in East Pakistan. It is a very large number. A very large number of middle class people have come away, especially people like teachers, after the February-March disturbances. As a result, schools were closed, educational institutions ceased to function; in short, the normal life of the minority community was completely upset. I do not know what the future holds. It may be that some new equilibrium will be established. Some people say that not a single Hindu can remain in East Bengal. I am not a prophet; I cannot say. Something my happen tomorrow to worsen the relations between India and Pakistan. That would widen the gap and make it more difficult for us. On the other hand, something may happen to bridge the gap. There are so many uncertain quantities that I cannot say what will happen. [Here speaks the great visionary who is so uncertain about things but who however is strongly against allowing some protection to the Hindus because he knows about their future onlee]Normally speaking, I see no reason why a very large number of Hindus should not remain in East Bengal and a very large number of Muslims in West Bengal. Since the Agreement on April 8, there has been a continuous flow back of the minorities, both Hindu and Muslim, who had migrated previously. [Push back - Loony style after the fraud of Loony-Liaquat pact which faithfully pushed Hindus back to be slaughtered]

Loony voice :

An exchange of population is something which we have opposed all along. It is something which I consider not only undesirable but also not feasible. It is a question of arithmetic, apart from anything else. If we wanted an exchange of population between East and West Bengal and if we did it with the complete cooperation of both the governments on expert level and with every facility given,. it is calculated that it would take five and a half years and that, If no untoward event happened. Of course, many untoward events will happen in the meantime and, of course, there will be no such magnificent cooperation between the two governments either! All kinds of upheavals will take place during that period, so that one cannot think of this solution in terms of reality.

Hypothetically speaking - such total misreading of intentions on Islamist part, and insisting and implementing a policy that would ensure Islamist designs and pleasures - would indeed appear "loony" in a statesman. But repaeting and carrying it on in the face of repeated pointers and evidence to the contrary - knowing full well what was happening and will happen further to the remnant Hindu population and refusing to allow exchange of population - would be a wilfull participation in a genocide - and people who participate in genocides are "thugs"! So there we have precedence - which the Shiv Sena could hardly ever hope to match up to!

So we should be able to guess where this voice comes up repeatedly shouting "loony loony loony" to anything that shows any sympathy towards the "Hindu" civilization [which needs of course an == onlee in declaring the other side to be a "civilization" too after that civilization uses jihad as civilization to rape, massacre and loot] - and is so strongly against "exchange of populations". The voice is simply carrying out his-master's-voice's instructions.

Pampering BD is perhaps part of a bigger policy - and likely to be also part of a coordinated "outside" pressure to mollycoddle Islamists of the subcontinent until USA winds up safely. The dynasty has taken a keen interest - by sending its scions, and now "direct" action over summer by the matriarch with jo-juzurein amatya in tow - which means a wider "alliance" pressure. Mosahib voices are out to create image of consensus in fora!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Jul 2011 07:26

Is not supporting and repeating Loony agenda that crystallized in the Loony-Liaquat pact -ad nauseum- also a sign of loony-ness?!!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 12 Jul 2011 07:27

ravi_ku wrote: Any concrete ideas regarding that bolded part or is it the "obligatory crumbs" after giving everything away to others and mouthing platitudes for Indians ala Nehru??

Do you always jump with both legs, shooting from hips as your knee jerks and your mouth froths?

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 12 Jul 2011 07:31

The dead moose on the table is that Islamist ideologies that are seemingly prevalent in BD society cannot be overlooked. Overwhelmingly Islamic societies like Pakistan and Bangladesh do hate us and will continue to hate us by definition and religious ideology.

Try social engineering a population that is 90% Islamic - does not happen. The demands simply keep increasing. Reminds me of the popular chant amongst KMs at one time, asking Hindu men to vacate the valley but leave their women behind.

Mollycoddling overwhelmingly Islamic societies in the sub-continent has not led to any good. Risking our demographics in an ever shrinking space for Indics is hardly the right approach. Demographics is destiny - why kill our destiny at the altar of political correctness.

Regurgitating inane theories based on economics based on what has worked on nations that border the US, and applying them to a nation that has no qualms in the slow and steady ethnic cleansing in most of its minority population, and 98% of rape cases seem to be committed against Hindu women, is simply not practical in the Indian context.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Jul 2011 07:36

Social engineering == Hindi serials+Rabindrasangeet+Kolkata-Sarees == continuously decreasing Hindus == continuously going on rapes/abductions/land-aleination == more talk of investments from India == more strategic concessions == back to Islamism after one round of concessions == increased leverage for the next round == will tempoorrarily pretend to stop normal Islamist activity if you start giving the next round of concessions = social engineering == Hindi serials+.....

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Jul 2011 07:45

Still no clarity from quick-gun-loony-stun side on
(1) what choices about citizenship for people of "absorbed" into surrounding big-boss territory
(2) what guarantees protection of "Hindus" in Indian-enclaves inside BD once they are "absorbed" given the normal kind treatement meted out to Hindus in BD
I guess the instruction from Loony-Liaquat-Pact side is to ignore and pontificate on the necessity of "Hindus" staying back!

Some may resent my use of "Loony-Liaquat" - but since I find no ceasing of gratuitous ascription of "loony" to onlee those traditionally hated by the Congress-Left and especially those dubbed "saffron" [there was a term in Bangadesh in early 70's - Kongshal, so may be we should start calling them together as ConLeft] but never ever to Islamists/EJ's/ConLeft personalities or orgs, I think it is fair to distribute the honour evenly.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 12 Jul 2011 07:47

SwamyG wrote:
ravi_ku wrote: Any concrete ideas regarding that bolded part or is it the "obligatory crumbs" after giving everything away to others and mouthing platitudes for Indians ala Nehru??
Do you always jump with both legs, shooting from hips as your knee jerks and your mouth froths?

Good, so as expected it was the platitudes.

touched a raw nerve?? seems like I marred your party. Go on.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 12 Jul 2011 08:45

Anindya wrote: Mollycoddling overwhelmingly Islamic societies in the sub-continent has not led to any good. Risking our demographics in an ever shrinking space for Indics is hardly the right approach. Demographics is destiny - why kill our destiny at the altar of political correctness.

Regurgitating inane theories based on economics based on what has worked on nations that border the US, and applying them to a nation that has no qualms in the slow and steady ethnic cleansing in most of its minority population, and 98% of rape cases seem to be committed against Hindu women, is simply not practical in the Indian context.

Maybe you can explain how a broader economic cooperation frameork is "mollycoddling" BD, given that bulk of the externality is going to accrue to India? Maybe you can explain how "inane" theories based on economics are being actively pursued by Europe w.r.t to another "majority muslim" country, Turkey...you might want to explain why/how much greater cooperative structures (than what is under consideration between India and BD) have been entered into with succes close to our home, in East Asia, with Islamic countries like Indon and Malaysia?

You might want to explain how transit rights for India through BD into NE is only "political correctness"?

You might also want to explain how settling of a border based on current holdings, that reduces an avenue of immigration, is "shrinking" the space for the "indics"...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 12 Jul 2011 09:02

We see some more fulmination on the fate of "hindu" residents in BD enclaves if settlement happens...For one, majority of residents in these enclaves (on both sides) are muslim...Two, residents in these enclaves could have a right to relocate to their country of "citizenship", and a compensation package worked out for reloation (there are many different models) - it was part of the terms o reference of the Joint Working Group set up by, horrors (!), the ABV govt with Shaeikh Hasina govt...

Of course, resident "fulminators" here could never be accused of rationality...Or facts for that matter - "kolkata sarees" in a shared Indo-BD heritage

Boudis would be dying in "cultural agony" to hear that, given the preponderance of Dhakai sarees! Its a bit laughable when these principals impute "bengal familiarity" in their narrative - kolkata sarees indeed...(Just like having to find references to "Sarani" in village outbacks

)