Indian Military Aviation

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Jul 2011 08:17

don't quite agree with Col shukla on the numbers. here's my projection of IAF sqn numbers by 2025 from BR wiki.
http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/Ind ... ernization

even by a hopeful estimate AMCA would just start entering service in 2025.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 12 Jul 2011 11:01

Rahul M wrote:don't quite agree with Col shukla on the numbers. here's my projection of IAF sqn numbers by 2025 from BR wiki.

Rahul, Can you send me the source Excel for this graph... you have my email correct? I want to do some what-If analysis to simulate some scenarios for the forum!!!

wig · Post by **wig** » 13 Jul 2011 07:50

Air Marshal Athawale AOC-in C Maintenance Command talks about the project to upgrade MiG-29 which will commence next month and the An 32 while on a visit to the base repair depot in chandigarh

After initial delay, the IAF expects to commence its programme to upgrade the MiG-29 frontline fighter aircraft in India next month. The aircraft will be upgraded at 11 Base Repair Depot near Nasik and the project to upgrade the entire MiG-29 fleet is scheduled to take five years.

“There have been some delays. The project should have started last year but will now commence within the next month or two,” Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Maintenance Command, Air Marshal P.V. Athawale said.

Under the project, six MiG-29s were to be upgraded by the aircraft’s Russian manufacturer, RAC-MiG Corporation at its plant in Zhukovsky, with the remaining aircraft being upgraded by the IAF locally.

“The Russian part of the project is now complete. The upgradation involves modifications of the engines, several structural changes to the airframe as well as incorporating advanced avionics and integrating newer weapon systems and electronic warfare suites to gives the aircraft more range and combat capability,” Air Marshal Athawale said. “The aircraft’s lifespan is also being increased from the present 25 years to 40 years,” he added.

The IAF operates about 70 MiG-29s, equipping three squadrons-No. 28, 47 and 223. These twin-engined aircraft were inducted in the mid-1980s. A deal was signed with Russia to upgrade these aircraft in 2008 and the first of the six upgraded aircraft was flight-tested early this year. The entire project was initially envisioned to be complete by 2013.

Primarily intended for intercepting aerial targets and ensuring air superiority, the upgraded aircraft will have the ability to strike ground (sea-surface) mobile and stationary targets with high-precision weapons under all-weather conditions. Complete updating of the on board data and sighting systems will include fitment of state-of-the-art multi-functional Zhuk-ME radar, an advanced on board computing complex, a new weapon control system, an optronic station based on space technologies and coloured multi-functional displays in the cockpit.

Some features and sub-systems of the IAF’s upgraded MiG-29 would be common with the MiG-29K, the carrier-borne variant being produced for the Indian Navy. Air Marshal Athawale, however, ruled out that the recent crash of the MiG-29K in Russia and the subsequent grounding of the fleet would have any impact of the IAF project.

He was, however, silent on the proposed Mirage 2000 upgrade programme, saying that some planning in this regard was underway at the top level. The IAF is considering a deal with France to modernise its 59-odd Mirage 2000 fighters to meet future operational requirements.

On the ongoing AN-32 modernisation programme, he said that the IAF has started upgrading then at 1 BRD at Kanpur after initial aircraft were modified in Ukraine. This year, three aircraft would be upgraded in India and the number would be increased from next year onwards.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110713/nation.htm#6

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 13 Jul 2011 08:02

^^^^^^^^^^^

Russian part of MIG 29 upgrade program is now complete? Does that mean 6 modernized MIG-29s are hiding away from photographers?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jul 2011 08:09

Are we saying by 2025, we would have 45 squadrons of AMCA? or is it 1 squadron color band?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Jul 2011 08:36

We’ve no problem with MiG 29s: Air Marshal

Russia may have grounded its entire fleet of MiG 29 aircraft following a crash in which two were killed, but Indian Air Force feels its aircraft are safe and pose no problems.

“We have no problem with our MiG 29 aircrafts,” said Air Marshal PV Athawale, AOC-in-C, Maintenance Command. “We are upgrading the MiG 29s. Once upgraded, they will become more potent,” he added.

Speaking to the media during a visit to 3 Base Repair Depot (BRD), Chandigarh, Athawale said that the Central government had in 2008, signed a contract with a Russian firm to upgrade 63 MiG 29 aircraft at a cost of about US $ 964 million.

The upgrade is planned in two phases — Design and Development (D&D) in Russia and series upgrade in India. Upgradation of six aircraft in D&D phase commenced in August 2008. “Russia has already upgraded the aircraft. The series upgrade for the remaining MIG29s is expected to be carried out in India in two-three months,” the Air Marshal said.

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 13 Jul 2011 08:54

Austin wrote:We’ve no problem with MiG 29s: Air Marshal

Russia may have grounded its entire fleet of MiG 29 aircraft following a crash in which two were killed, but Indian Air Force feels its aircraft are safe and pose no problems.

“We have no problem with our MiG 29 aircrafts,” said Air Marshal PV Athawale, AOC-in-C, Maintenance Command. “We are upgrading the MiG 29s. Once upgraded, they will become more potent,” he added.

Speaking to the media during a visit to 3 Base Repair Depot (BRD), Chandigarh, Athawale said that the Central government had in 2008, signed a contract with a Russian firm to upgrade 63 MiG 29 aircraft at a cost of about US $ 964 million.

The upgrade is planned in two phases — Design and Development (D&D) in Russia and series upgrade in India. Upgradation of six aircraft in D&D phase commenced in August 2008. “Russia has already upgraded the aircraft. The series upgrade for the remaining MIG29s is expected to be carried out in India in two-three months,” the Air Marshal said.

Second confirmation of 6 upgraded MIG-29s. Have these arrived in India? Any update?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jul 2011 09:08

none have arrived I think and one crashed.

nash · Post by **nash** » 13 Jul 2011 09:38

so it means by 2025:

Mig-29 : 3 sqd
M2K : 2 sqd
Jag : 2 sqd
MKI : 14 sqd
LCA -1 : 2 sqd
LCA -2 : 8 sqd
MMRCA : 6 sqd
PAK-FA : 5 sqd
AMCA : 1 sqd

Very much possible and realistic but i wish there should be more number of PAK-FA and MMRCA to make it to 50+ sqd. And for that serious effort and will required.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Jul 2011 10:05

Air Marshal Pramod Vasant Athawale, AOC-in-C maintenance command inspects 3 BRD

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Jul 2011 10:51

K_Rohit wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^

Russian part of MIG 29 upgrade program is now complete? Does that mean 6 modernized MIG-29s are hiding away from photographers?

There were plenty of upgraded mig-29 photos, google for these, they are in yellow primer with a hump conformal tank.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Jul 2011 10:52

Singha wrote:none have arrived I think and one crashed.

Singha, the crash involved a navy mig-29K and not an IAF bird.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Jul 2011 10:54

If we have 70 mig-29s, shouldn't there be four SQ rather than three?!?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Jul 2011 10:58

nash wrote:so it means by 2025:

Mig-29 : 3 sqd
M2K : 2 sqd
Jag : 2 sqd
MKI : 14 sqd
LCA -1 : 2 sqd
LCA -2 : 8 sqd
MMRCA : 6 sqd
PAK-FA : 5 sqd
AMCA : 1 sqd

Very much possible and realistic but i wish there should be more number of PAK-FA and MMRCA to make it to 50+ sqd. And for that serious effort and will required.

We are going to end up ver top heavy with MKIs, PAKFA, AMCA forming a big bulk of our AF, a nice impetus to induct more sq of LCA as we retire our mig29 s and m2ks.
I think we will have more than 2sq of jags as we have been adding jags to our fleet regularly and will continue this ex: maritime jag and the IB versions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jul 2011 11:15

there is a film named Mausam about a IAF pilot coming up Sept16, shahid kapoor plays the lead and footage was shot in F16 & tornado from uae and uk, with some IAF m2k footage also. the photography in general looks good enough, no idea about the story but does not look to be war movie...

http://www.bollywoodhungama.com/broadba ... ausam.html

so Vijeta (and Angad singh) remains unconquered in search of a worthy successor this century...

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 13 Jul 2011 11:22

Shrinivasan wrote:
K_Rohit wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^

Russian part of MIG 29 upgrade program is now complete? Does that mean 6 modernized MIG-29s are hiding away from photographers?
There were plenty of upgraded mig-29 photos, google for these, they are in yellow primer with a hump conformal tank.

Just one airframe has been photographed. Wondering about the other 5.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Jul 2011 11:42

K_Rohit wrote:There were plenty of upgraded mig-29 photos, google for these, they are in yellow primer with a hump conformal tank.
Just one airframe has been photographed. Wondering about the other 5.

I myself have pictures of 3-4 frames, live fist had couple of pics, deaf & dumb pics forum! Mil photos, India defense all had multiple pics of different birds, see their tail fin numbers.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Jul 2011 11:49

I just did a quick search from my iPad, I can see KBU3301, 3123 and 3306 ( twin seater) pics, I have couple more in my Bhandaar

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 13 Jul 2011 12:07

Shrinivasan wrote:I just did a quick search from my iPad, I can see KBU3301, 3123 and 3306 ( twin seater) pics, I have couple more in my Bhandaar

Post again...? Pretty please? no time to google them...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Jul 2011 12:13

K_Rohit wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:I just did a quick search from my iPad, I can see KBU3301, 3123 and 3306 ( twin seater) pics, I have couple more in my Bhandaar
Post again...? Pretty please? no time to google them...

I will post links tomorrow, do you have to check link or should I post pics too?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 13 Jul 2011 17:23

Shrinivasan wrote:If we have 70 mig-29s, shouldn't there be four SQ rather than three?!?

Each squadron of 20 planes plus war and attrition reserves.

Singha wrote: so Vijeta (and Angad singh) remains unconquered in search of a worthy successor this century...

Doesn't LOC Kargil come under the same category???

BhairavP · Post by **BhairavP** » 13 Jul 2011 17:28

^Reports on rediff stating that the Cabinet has cleared the M2K update deal.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 13 Jul 2011 17:35

BhairavP wrote:^Reports on rediff stating that the Cabinet has cleared the M2K update deal.

Yippee.. Time for full on lungi dance... At long last the deal has been cleared..

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 13 Jul 2011 17:44

see livefist. confirmed about m2k

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Jul 2011 17:46

Indian cabinet approves $2.4 billion Mirage 2000 Upgrade deal

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Jul 2011 18:47

Government okays $2.4 bn Mirage-2000 upgrade

New Delhi: The government has cleared a $2.4 billion deal with France for upgrading India's Mirage-2000 combat planes, informed sources said.

The deal was cleared at a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the sources said.

The move comes even as Defence Ministry and the Indian Air Force (IAF) top brass is split over the high cost of upgrading the IAF's 52 Mirage-2000 aircraft and the likely benefits to the country's future air power needs.

Taking into account $1 billion for new weapons and another $500 million for new facilities at Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the upgrade, the cost could rise to close to $4 billion, Defence Ministry officials said.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jul 2011 18:50

What might we be purchasing for 1billion USD? That is pretty steap for 60 odd mirages....unless, we are buying stuff for other a/c in our inventory as well.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Jul 2011 19:08

imaging? recon? ecm? eccm? scalp? mica?
advanced BRD capabilities?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 13 Jul 2011 19:09

nash wrote:so it means by 2025:

Mig-29 : 3 sqd
M2K : 2 sqd
Jag : 2 sqd
MKI : 14 sqd
LCA -1 : 2 sqd
LCA -2 : 8 sqd
MMRCA : 6 sqd
PAK-FA : 5 sqd
AMCA : 1 sqd

Very much possible and realistic but i wish there should be more number of PAK-FA and MMRCA to make it to 50+ sqd. And for that serious effort and will required.

GREAT

IAF would also have the best logistics system amongst any AF to handle 7 state-of-art combat aircraft. I doubt that even USAF had 7 types of aircraft in their heydays. Say in 1960s they had F4, F100, F102, F106, F105, A4, A6, A7 etc etc etc

Kersi

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 13 Jul 2011 19:48

nukavarapu wrote:Does this mean that Katrina has lost to Tiffy?

To early to say. The M2K upg will not figure with the oversight bodies like the CAG. It will, according to my humble opinion, depend on L1 and the points given to the ToT proposals.

jagbani · Post by **jagbani** » 13 Jul 2011 21:09

We’ve no problem with MiG 29s: Air Marshal

Russia may have grounded its entire fleet of MiG 29 aircraft following a crash in which two were killed, but Indian Air Force feels its aircraft are safe and pose no problems.
He said:- “We have no problem with our MiG 29 aircrafts,” said Air Marshal PV Athawale, AOC-in-C, Maintenance Command. “We are upgrading the MiG 29s. Once upgraded, they will become more potent,”
Check in video he talked with press and media http://www.punjabkesari.in/video/1f8c5c ... d310b42775

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Jul 2011 21:54

rajanb wrote:
nukavarapu wrote:Does this mean that Katrina has lost to Tiffy?
To early to say. The M2K upg will not figure with the oversight bodies like the CAG. It will, according to my humble opinion, depend on L1 and the points given to the ToT proposals.

Tiffy is going to win this one. After reading Admiral Prakash's article, one can easily conclude that it boils down to offsets and Tiffy wins on that respect hands down. There is no way France can offer what UK and Germany can (the only two meaningful partners in the Eurofighter consortium).

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 13 Jul 2011 22:44

nash wrote:so it means by 2025:

Mig-29 : 3 sqd
M2K : 2 sqd
Jag : 2 sqd
MKI : 14 sqd
LCA -1 : 2 sqd
LCA -2 : 8 sqd
MMRCA : 6 sqd
PAK-FA : 5 sqd
AMCA : 1 sqd

Very much possible and realistic but i wish there should be more number of PAK-FA and MMRCA to make it to 50+ sqd. And for that serious effort and will required.

The only odd thing about all this is the most heaviest fighter would be the largest in numbers too. If one adds the MRCA, PAKFA to it then some very serious numbers in the medium-heavy to heavy categories. Presuming aerial refueling as a fact of modern operations, what is the IAF thinking in terms of threat perceptions/opportunities. It will be interesting to watch how China's modern numbers stack up against this for 2025?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Jul 2011 01:45

chackojoseph wrote:Indian cabinet approves $2.4 billion Mirage 2000 Upgrade deal

Finally...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Jul 2011 02:19

that is like $41M per upgrade piece., with no new engine.

what is happening?

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 14 Jul 2011 03:33

Bala Vignesh wrote:
BhairavP wrote:^Reports on rediff stating that the Cabinet has cleared the M2K update deal.
Yippee.. Time for full on lungi dance... At long last the deal has been cleared..

I might sound a spoilsport.. but this is once again another slap in the face of ordinary people whom our government fails to protect ...time after time Serial blasts killing ordinary folks and we are spending gazillion dollars in the name of national security...!!!!! 10-15% cut money per deal... its the new kind of loot..

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Jul 2011 04:02

Costliest fighter upgrade

New Delhi, July 13: The government today approved the costliest military aircraft upgrade programme yet, gifting to France a deal that will see the Indian Air Force’s 25-year-old Mirage fighter planes being dressed up for more than Rs 200 crore a piece.
:
Indian and French negotiators toiled over the proposal for nearly five years because of the high price that, critics said, would buy new aircraft. That is not entirely true. The kind of new combat aircraft that the IAF is currently evaluating would come, at a conservative estimate, for $80 million (over Rs 360 crore) each.

The total upgrade programme for the Mirage aircraft could top $4 billion. The proposal cleared does not include about $900 million for new weapons (possibly MBDA-made Mica air-to-air missiles) that will re-arm the aircraft and another $500 million for new facilities at Hindustan Aeronautics’s Bangalore establishment.

The Mirage 2000 aircraft of the IAF are based in Gwalior. The multi-role aircraft are also assigned a nuclear strike role. The upgrade programme envisages a new radar, new avionics, an electronic warfare suite and counter-measures.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Jul 2011 06:39

Mirage 2000 upg gone through at last, has it? REading tea leaves, looks to me there are 2 perspectives now -

1) This $ 4 billion deal was a baksheesh thrown to Fra - no more Rafales, IAF makes ready for Typhoon.

2) better heads prevail, this deal is used to reduce price tag on Rafales, and increase weapons, supply chain commonality (cost reduction) so as to make Rafale as MRCA seem to fit the budget. Otherwise, there is no way India can afford 126 Eurocanards for MRCA at a measly $ 10 billlion budget.

Of course chai leaves are notorious for being deceptive.

CM

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2011 06:45

one thing is the Mirage family airframes are very durable...and the M53 engine is safe...MirageF1 and MirageIII/V are still in service.
even though our 40 are around 25 yrs old now...we can safely expect to use them for 20 more yrs without the kind of rampant safety issues and spares shortage that plagued the Mig21 fleet....Dassault looks like a Munna for GoF, so will be around for sure.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2011 08:24

Simply amazing,upgrading 52 Mirages for approx $4 billion,while upgrading 60+ MIG-29s costs only $1 billion,that too the MIG-29 which was proven the better air combat aircraft in IAF secret one-on-one exercises AM Masand in Vayu) some time ago.Even top brass IAF officers have questioned the wisdom of such an expensive upgrade when we could've bought the same number of any of 3 of the dumped candidates for the MMRCA deal,brand new aircraft and their weaponry,which would've lasted us for double the time of the to-be upgraded Mirages.There is a huge smell of rotting fish here-is this a QPQ (quid-pro-quo) to Sarko for favours not in the public domain?

PS:This could be one method by which the Rafale's price will be found to be clearly below the Typhoon's,"allowing" it to win the "battle of the budget" and winning the MMRCA deal,a devious strategy of substantially overpricing the M-2000 upgrade .If you compare the costs of the two upgrades-MIG-29 for 60+ aircraft and M-2000 for 50+ aircraft at 400% the cost ,the matter becomes clear.