Indian Army: News & Discussion

[abhishek_sharma]

So is media to blame? Partially...but media only shows what people want to see. If people are more interested in news channels showing comedy circus and astrology shows, then that is one skewed priority list.

I agree that people are interested in comedy shows. But it would be incorrect to assert that people like reports on army scams but don't care for military's positive contributions. That phenomenon is the responsibility of media. I don't think their ratings would suffer if they start praising the military.

[nitinr]

What had been the rational thinking, if god forbid this 13 year old boy had been a suicide bomber. A place is safe till its not attacked. Who could have thought of a suicide attack on parliament.

[Shrinivasan]

In the US, if one ventures into a base, you will be shot at and then questions will be asked. No pussyfooting here..

So? Should we blindly emulate U.S.?

Because the victim was a young boy, everybody is having a collective 0rga$m, we saw tellebunnies using a 8 year old girl as a suside bum, so age is not a criterion for action. Wedont know if he was shot to kill or wound or scare? Again it was an individuals decision and not an army directive or order.

What is the probability of a child suicide bombing in Tamil Nadu? God knows what happened to rational thinking.

TN has it's share of jehadis! Coimbatore blast happened 15 years back. Rajiv Gandhi died at the hands of a suicide bomber right outside Chennai! So probability is high. How many suicide bomb attacks happened in India, know to me One and that happened in chennai/TN.

[abhishek_sharma]

So probability is high.

That is not how you calculate probability.

[abhishek_sharma]

What had been the rational thinking, if god forbid this 13 year old boy had been a suicide bomber. A place is safe till its not attacked. Who could have thought of a suicide attack on parliament.

Actually people should have thought about the Parliament attack after the attack on J&K's Parliament.

And don't use Cheney's 1% doctrine.

[abhishek_sharma]

O.K. I have to work now. See you guys tomorrow.

[Gaur]

So is media to blame? Partially...but media only shows what people want to see. If people are more interested in news channels showing comedy circus and astrology shows, then that is one skewed priority list.

I agree that people are interested in comedy shows. But it would be incorrect to assert that people like reports on army scams but don't care for military's positive contributions. That phenomenon is the responsibility of media. I don't think their ratings would suffer if they start praising the military.

I hope so. But my personnel experiences have made me somewhat reluctant to believe that people care much about the services. Sure, people approve of the services in general and everyone would say that "Army people are great chaps, we respect them a lot" but that seems to be the extent of it. I have had highly educated people say things to me which have made me wonder as to how would I had reacted if I was from services myself. Eg: On discussing Siachen with a respected doctor, the chap said that "thats their job and they are being paid to do it...".
And this is not a singular incident. Maybe I have had the misfortune of meeting such people more than others have, but whatever the reason, I don't feel that general public care much about the services other than giving a practiced "well done". People seem to take them for granted.

[Gaur]

What had been the rational thinking, if god forbid this 13 year old boy had been a suicide bomber. A place is safe till its not attacked. Who could have thought of a suicide attack on parliament.

As I had written before, children trespassing residential colonies to pick fruits is a common sight in old and open cantts. If other residents and service personnel go by your logic and start acting like this Ramraj chap, you would get daily reports of multiple deaths in cantts.
So, if there were some extraordinary circumstances which led Mr Ramraj to wrongly believe that his life was threatened, then what he did could be justified. However, if what the media reports suggest are to be believed, he shot in rage simply because he was frustrated with the daily trespassing of the children. That cannot be justified.

Anyway, I feel that the particulars of this case are best discussed in the police thread. I don't see how the alleged crimes of retired service personnel ought to be discussed here.

[abhishek_sharma]

Eg: On discussing Siachen with a respected doctor, the chap said that "thats their job and they are being paid to do it...".

I think people don't know enough about the conditions in Siachen. That is why they don't find anything special in working there. Not many people read books about our military. They prefer Arundhati Roy and Salman Rushdie.

There is another reason. People already have enough troubles in their life. If you have seen "Welcome to Sajjanpur" or "Peepli Live", you will agree that people in those circumstances don't have time for Tawang or Aksai Chin.

Of course there is a third group of elite socialites. They worry about their Prada and Gucci. They just care for themselves.

[rohitvats]

Law book does not say anything about trespassers, big boards on the compound wall says so. This boy was a repeat offender.it has been just a month since PNS Mehran, would you want one in Desh. Forces would be on alert in bases, we don't want another Kulchuk, defense colonies need protection, trespassers need to be dealt with sternly, else this verbal abuse on Chindu will spread to physical abuse of service members.

Shrini, there is no excuse for what the colonel sahab did. There was no security issue, the whole thing happened in broad daylight and there was no grey area.

What he did was in a rage of fit and anger, something like road rage incidents. In a country as vast as ours, such incidents are dime-a-dozen. NCR is famous for these things. And so shall he be punished.

added later: I have managed to solve the mystery of the third artillery division. Will mail you and post in the arty dhaaga. Thanks for raising the question about the formation sign. Cheers!

[Shrinivasan]

I have no bones with punishing the guy, My retort is only for the comments in Hindu and in this forum. He was not on guard duty and still he shot someone in broad daylight could mean pre-meditated, but is it murder, a judge has to say that. Did he act professionally? No. Honorably? No.
What the boy did, is it a crime? YES. Sadly, he paid with his life? Col is in custody. The system is fair to say the least, unfortunately for the boy he died. That is the saddest part.

[Shrinivasan]

Let us stop this boy shooting discussion in the army forum please.
Thanks Rohit for the Arty update.

[Gaur]

Let us stop this boy shooting discussion in the army forum please.

Seconded.

[merlin]

Let us stop this boy shooting discussion in the army forum please.

Seconded.

Actually I disagree. The shooting incident, at least to me, shows that some people don't deserve to have an army protecting them. Unfortunately the army protects the nation and that means all people in it even those undeserving of that protection.

[rohitvats]

X-posting from arty thread (shameless attempt to increase post count)

OK. Ladies and Gentlemen (please to figure this out yourself),

I think I've managed to solve the mystery of the third artillery division. But first, thanks to Srini for pointing out the possibility of such a formation existing by linking the picture of Pinaka contingent in RD Parade.

Before I proceed, please be advised that this is all open source info and only help that I've recieved is from my uncle google.

Here is a short explanation:

(a) 40th Artillery Division - formation sign as on the vehicle in the pic below:

http://pib.nic.in/photo//2011/Jan/l2011012333195.jpg

(b) 41st Artillery Division - formation sign as on the vehicle in the pic below:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 705651.JPG

Now, looking at the color scheme of the formation sign, I knew that this was an artillery division and using the 2+2=4 formula, I had formed an opinion that this was 41st Artillery Division with Souther Command. But then, got some other confirmation that this indeed is the case. The Division is nick named as 'Agnibaaz Division' which when translated into english means 'Fire Hawk'. The formation sign fits perfectly into this description.

The source of nick-name is Sainik Samachar. Check this link:

http://sainiksamachar.nic.in/englisharc ... 8/h13.html

Excerpt:

The 41 Artillery Division in Pune celebrated their seventh raising day on April 2 with enthusiasm and multitude of activities. Since its raising, the Division has grown from strength to strength and, today, it is the pride of Indian Army. The Division's impeccable record was showcased during the recently conducted exercise Dakshin Shakti and Brazen Chariots carried out in the deserts of Rajasthan.

(c) Now, coming to our 'mystery formation'. The formation sign we were trying to figure out is in the link below:

http://pib.nic.in/photo//2011/Jan/l2011012333200.jpg

I actually got a lucky break courtsey a fellow orbat junkie who shared the pic listed below and the article (from The Hindu):

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 490015.ece

If you see the flags in the background, you can make out the same formation sign as on Pinaka launchers in the pic before this one. Which basically means that there is such a formation (3rd artillery division) and the same is under South-Western Command.

Now, coming to the numbering of this formation. Again, look what the google uncle turned up:

http://tenders.indiamart.com/details/261435065/
http://2.imimg.com/data2/TJ/JY/HTT-431/ ... -04_49.jpg

So, we do have three artillery division. The good brigadier whose article I'd linked in one of the previous posts (from IndiaStrategic) was correct. And the fact it is with SW Command makes sense; it after all commands the 1 Strike Corps. Now, all the Strike Corps have an artillery division each.

PS: Please send in your requests for autographs to the mods.

[nachiket]

But even overall, no one gives sh*t about services.

Not quite. The respect for the Army/IAF after Kargil and 26/11 was clearly visible.

Oh everyone remembers the Armed forces when the brown stuff hits the fan. At other times we have idiots blaming them for everything like in those letters posted earlier.

And I disagree with Shiv saar about amma. People have a very short attention span. Most people who first read about the story and amma's Blame the Army cries will still continue to believe that the "Army killed a 13 year old boy". How many people would actually follow up on the incident later and confirm that it was a retired Army officer who shot him and the Army itself had nothing to do with the incident. Jayalalitha was being irresponsible as is the wont of politicians in our country. Nothing more. Any chankianness she might be seen to indulge in would only be to protect her own backside.

[nitinr]

In the US, if one ventures into a base, you will be shot at and then questions will be asked. No pussyfooting here..

So? Should we blindly emulate U.S.?

Because the victim was a young boy, everybody is having a collective 0rga$m, we saw tellebunnies using a 8 year old girl as a suside bum, so age is not a criterion for action. Wedont know if he was shot to kill or wound or scare? Again it was an individuals decision and not an army directive or order.

What is the probability of a child suicide bombing in Tamil Nadu? God knows what happened to rational thinking.

@Gaur.. my comment was made in respect to teh bolded part. As long as we stick to the fact that it was an act was by 1 individual and it was wrong then its ok. But dont generalize by bring the probability of what a 13 year old boy can do or not do.

[VinodTK]

Who’s trying to fix the Army Chief by raking up his age?

:
It is about succession: The controversy is not merely about the age and tenure of the present chief. More importantly, it is about a succession plan scripted a few years back (in 2006) by none other than the then army chief. The succession script naturally attracted vested interests in the form of politicians, arms merchants, businessmen and other ambitious army officers. The controversy needs to be, therefore, understood in its entirety.

It is a moral issue: The controversy raises questions about the state of health of the Indian Army, denting its very edifice. Senior officers, depending on their career calculations, are divided over the issue. The lower rank-and-file members of the army perceive the controversy in the manner they are fed by the rival camps. The overall consequence is that the image of the army and the honour and moral authority of its chief has never been attacked so viciously by insiders and vested interests for non-operational reasons.

The Pakistani press is speculating about the issue, and has been raising doubts about the health of the Indian Army and its unity. When an army chief vouches for a simple detail like his date of birth, it should be accepted as such, unless there are huge reasons to doubt that person’s truthfulness. The point is, the psychological integrity of the army has been fraying over the years. Gen Singh’s ‘age’ controversy should thus not be viewed in isolation. It is actually a manifestation of the deterioration, misuse and subversion of the office of the COAS for nearly a decade.

Who created the controversy? An impression is being sought to be conveyed by Gen Singh’s detractors that he fudged his age just to ‘enjoy’ the office of COAS for an additional year. This is a travesty of truth. The fact is his age was never an issue throughout his career. Nor was the issue ever raked up by Army HQ or even the defence ministry as he rose to the rank of Lt Gen with his date of birth showing 10 May 1951. The issue was first raised in 2006, when the army chief prepared a succession plan going downwards several levels. It is well-known that he raked up the issue to ensure the passage of one of his favourites, apparently on sectarian considerations, to the office of COAS. In this case, he had planned for succession three interventions below.
:

[nitinr]

thanks Vinod..
Very sad state of affairs. As rightly summarised in the end, Its the enemies of state who are going to benefit the most because of this petty infighting.
Does MoD or govt has no say in this matter? I mean it seems to be a clear cut case of maligning COAS and artificial controversy to personally benefit a few. Why does govt or MoD not be proactive and stop this?

[sanjeevpunj]

Congratulations to the Indian Army. Kashmir encounter: Woman hostage rescued, three terrorists gunned down .
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 232989.cms

[anishns]

Basturds at beebs reporting something completely different

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14164787

Apparently the woman sneaked out on her own

[Shrinivasan]

I just saw a long article about the status of Border roads on the borders with the PRC titled "India’s Northern Border Roadways: A Shocking National Shame", what do you make out of this article.
focus on the message and forget the messenger...

[Gaur]

No successful infiltration attempt along LoC since Jan: Army
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 233038.ece

[Surya]

lazy ?? or something wors journalism

from outlook regarding the army request for control of ITBP

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?277645

by the author is chandrabani bannerjee

And the experts think that the force should be allowed to act independently. Sreemati Chakrabarti, professor of East Asian Studies at Delhi University and director of Chinese Studies, points out, “Our border with China is somewhat sensitive. The Geneva Convention too says that international borders should not be manned by the army. Any army intervention therefore would be in violation of the Geneva Convention.”

Where the eff does this bullshit come from??

[Kersi D]

Probably an unfair generalization?

One observation though. If you pick a random Indian on the road, you would find that he can relate at least one bad incident about army (scam, killing etc....take your pick). But how many bravery incidents can he narrate? None. Almost everyone would have heard about "security forces" violating human rights in J&K. But how many have heard that IA provides free healthcare, education, sports opportunities, build roads etc in J&K? You would be hard pressed to find one person who can narrate one such act. Why are people oblivious to that? After all, there are infinitely more incidents of sacrifices than corruption.

The reason is
The media is oblivious to the "good" things about the defence forces

The real culprit is the PR of MoD. Under the guise of OSA, hardly any information is released officially. Hence the aam addmi is not aware of the peace time heroiucs of our soldiers.

I would not agree that the aam admi thinks only "bad" about the Services. The aam admi does have high opinion about the fauji jawans

Kersi

[Shrinivasan]

lazy ?? or something wors journalism - chandrabani bannerjee

“Our border with China is somewhat sensitive. The Geneva Convention too says that international borders should not be manned by the army. Any army intervention therefore would be in violation of the Geneva Convention.”

What else would you expect from a Jholna waala (JW). This move would have resulted in better Synergy between IA & ITBP, we know who doesn't want this synergy... IA mans the border for significant portions of Indo-Pak border. who mans the border from the Chinese side, the Peking Philharmonic??? This article is from one JW quoting another JW, the Geneva Convetion part is thrown in to give it an aura of authority (another JW quality... look nerdy, give high sounding sound bites and generally reinforce each others aura).. Geneva convention covers...

First Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded & Sick in Armed Forces in the Field, 1864
Second Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea, 1906
Third Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, 1929
Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, 1949
The whole set is referred to as the "Geneva Conventions of 1949" or simply the "Geneva Convention".
There is no coverage of Geneva Convention for peace time and is only about wartime.

[ASPuar]

This black comedy will continue until war breaks out, or something really terrible happens on the border.

Its not a JW issue. Instead, its a babu issue. The IPS doesnt want to have its officers come under the control of the Army officers. So, for this petty ego matter, it is trying hard to ensure that army cannot synergise the border management matters. But disaster will ensue, and we must prevent this.

Any sane man will acknowledge that oversight of border management by the military is the need of the hour, especially given aggressive gestures by the Chinaman. ALL border management forces must be turned over to the defence ministry. Even in the totally JW Outlook article, an IG BSF clearly says that he fully supports the army's move to take control of border management forces.

For gods sake, at the eleventh hour, will our politicians PLEASE wake up???? Who do they think is manning the Chinese side of the border? The Beijing croquet team?

[Shrinivasan]

Great news...http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=5296478
Army''s 2nd Officers Training Academy to start from tomorrow
This was supposed to have come-up during George Kaka's days as Raksha Mantri!!!

[sum]

Not sure if posted earlier:
Army jawans to get as much meat as officers

NEW DELHI: A major dietary imbalance in the military has now been corrected, with Napolean Bonaparte's maxim that "an Army marches on its stomach" probably being kept in mind. In terms of quantity, jawans will be able to eat non-vegetarian dishes as well as their officers in the Indian Army now.

The defence ministry has approved the increase in the "scale" of mutton or chicken from 110 gms per man per day to 180 gms for all non-vegetarian jawans. "Keeping the physical nature of work and to ensure troops get wholesome non-vegetarian dishes, the case for this was taken up by Army chief General V K Singh with the defence minister A K Antony in February. It has now been approved," said an official.

This comes after a similar increase in the scale of fruits and eggs for JCOs (junior commissioned officers) and other ranks was approved to bring it on par with the officers, who number just about 35,000 in the 1.13-million strong Army. "JCOs and jawans, for instance, now get two eggs every day just like officers," he said.

"Then, there has also been authorization of special rations to troops deployed in posts above 12,000 feet, which includes areas like Kargil and Siachen-Saltoro Ridge, authorization of branded wheat atta, whole meal instead of grinded wheat, and procurement of branded salt and ready-to-eat vegetarian and non-vegetarian retort pouches," he said.

All these steps come in the backdrop of last year's CAG report, which blasted the Army's entire "supply chain management of rations'', hinting at widespread corruption and existence of cartels, which led to jawans often being provided sub-standard foodstuff and rations well past their consume-by dates.

The Army, of course, has also been hit by a series of meat, egg, atta, dal and other ration scams in recent years, with even Lt-General rank officers being indicted in the scandals.

The CAG report, on its part, painted a dismal picture of the way procurement and supply of dry (rice, wheat, dal, sugar, tea, oil, tinned stuff) and fresh (vegetables, fruit, meat, milk) rations was being undertaken at an annual cost of Rs 1,440 crore.

Noting satisfaction levels of troops about quantity, quality and taste of rations was "very low'', CAG called for a complete overhaul of the existing system, ranging from computerisation and better procurement procedures to expansion in the vendor base and blacklisting of defaulting parties. As per CAG, the main villains of the piece were Army Service Corps (ASC) and Army Purchase Organisation, all under the benign gaze of Army HQ as well as defence ministry.

As per CAG, around three lakh soldiers under the Northern Command in J&K, for instance, were issued rations by Army supply depots even after the expiry of their original estimated storage life (ESL) based on "repeated extensions'' given by the Central Food Laboratory at Jammu.

Good move..

More details also at : Clicky

The soldiers serving at an altitude of more than 9000 ft would be entitled to 230 gm of fresh fruit every day. Ready to eat chicken has also been approved.

Earlier special diet was sanctioned only for those posted in Siachen glacier, which has now been extended to everybody posted beyond 12000 ft. As a result of which a large number of soldiers posted in the Himalayas would be entitled for special diet.

Troops deployed in counter insurgency operations who are beyond one day turnaround from the composite platoon have been authorised certain items of special rations such as almonds, milk in tetra pack, juice in tetra pack and biscuits.

Students (officers, JCOs and soldiers) attending Ghatak course have been authorised special scale of rations to compensate for the physical stress during the course.

The soldiers operating tanks and infantry combat vehicles are now allowed to have four bottles of either soft drinks, fruit juice, lassi or coconut water daily. Procurement of ready to eat vegetables in retort pouches with longer shelf life has also been cleared.

[JE Menon]

Great news about the food for Jawans!!!

[ASPuar]

There is no real need for this 2nd academy. The existing ones are fine. Problem is getting right people, and then managing them properly. The post WWII army was short of officers, after the Brits left, but managed fine, thanks to the calibre of the (few) officers manning posts.

Today, thousands of officers are churned out every year, and treated like expendables....

[Raja Bose]

I didn't know about this - why did jawans have lower food rations than officers in the past? Is this just some hangover from colonial times when officers were sahebs?

[rohitvats]

^^^RB, I think it is has got to do with 'how' the calory intake used to happen, rather than differential in calory intake. Something like, only officers being entitled to AC-2 in trains earlier...now, JCOs also have the same priviledge.

[pragnya]

Great news...http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=5296478
Army''s 2nd Officers Training Academy to start from tomorrow
This was supposed to have come-up during George Kaka's days as Raksha Mantri!!!

a more detailed one was reported by stratpost in june -

Army’s 2nd OTA at Gaya opens next month

[chetak]

I didn't know about this - why did jawans have lower food rations than officers in the past? Is this just some hangover from colonial times when officers were sahebs?

It has a lot to do with calorific value and perceived food intake habits.

The total calorific value of the officer's and jawan's ration and food intake is exactly the same.

The jawan's ration is more slanted towards pulses (dals and the like) while the officer's rations have comparatively less dal in the mix. The difference is made up in the marginal increase in the quantity of meat, to bring up and equalize the protein content.

It is not a really significant quantity as is being sought to be made out in the breaking news type of reportage.

fc@k**g DDM

[Shrinivasan]

Army''s 2nd Officers Training Academy to start from tomorrow

a more detailed one was reported by stratpost in june -

Pragya, the question for various people on the forum was, why is this second OTA needed? unfortunately that is not addressed well in the article (apart from saying 200+ officers will be churned out from here)...

[chetak]

^^^

Gaya means George kaka's vote bank funda.

[chackojoseph]

Indian Army opens second Officer Training Academy

[Shrinivasan]

I didn't know about this - why did jawans have lower food rations than officers in the past? Is this just some hangover from colonial times when officers were sahebs?

It has a lot to do with calorific value and perceived food intake habits. It is not a really significant quantity as is being sought to be made out in the breaking news type of reportage. fc@k**g DDM

The whole article smelt of a WKK-Army bashing type from the beginning, which is worse than DDM. They seem to have solved an imaginary problem. There was an episode of Rocky & Manyur on the Paras, where the duo has dinner with the officers and another lunch with the other ranks... Yes there was a difference but that is more in the ambiance as well as some specific dishes, not in the content, definitely not in the qty of meat allowed for other ranks. In fact the qty is more in favor of other ranks than officers. Actually the officers were served food (sit down dinner) and I would be surprised if they could have asked for a second helping of their favorite dish, other ranks could get back to the serving line and get their fill.
Anyway, this is going OT pretty fast.

[VinodTK]

Antony gags Army, Navy, Air Force

"No one in the military should speak out-of-turn on contentious issues or policies which are still being formulated," said an official. Despite repeated attempts, Antony himself could not be contacted to explain the rationale or the immediate provocation for the directive.

The diktat, however, comes in the backdrop of the military leadership in recent days speaking about the Indian armed forces also being capable of launching an Abbottabad-like operation as well as the need for New Delhi to remove the existing 5,000-km cap on strategic missiles and develop ICBMs (intercontinental ballistic missiles) with strike ranges of 10,000 km and beyond.
:
:
"Indian armed forces have always been avowedly apolitical, recognizing civilian supremacy as a fundamental core principle. Top military leaders, rarely if ever, act as loose canons...but there is always this tendency to dub them just that," said a senior Army officer.

"If a mike is thrust in the face of a Service chief at a public function, should he duck the question to act completely unlike a military leader? Or, speak in a professional manner about his force, its capabilities and concerns?" he asked.