Serial Blasts in Mumbai

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 07:11

India has to be willing to be wrong.

The US was totally wrong in occupying Afghanistan and paying Pakistan. But it worked for America.

In India we blame Pakistan and our politcians. But hitting one does not solve the problem of the other. We need to hit Pakistan and if that fails we get the politician after that.

The politician is afraid to hit Pakistan because he worries that hitting Pakistan may not solve the problem and he is next in line if that fails. So it is best to blame someone else and sit tight.

i will make a prediction here. Nobody will remember to catch me out if I am wrong so I can say anything I want. If you retain the memory after a few years you are welcome to catch me out on this prediction. Changing our government and putting a "nationalist party in power will make absolutely no difference. Nothing will be done, but people will be happy for 3-4 years saying "Give them time - they need to undo all the bad things done by psec governments"

Mumbaikars will bounce back until the next attack. Pakistan too will bounce back until the next set of US sanctions.

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Pranav » 14 Jul 2011 07:15

x-post:

shiv wrote:Why has there been a decrease in the number of terror attacks? The possibilities are
1. Aman ki tamasha is working
2. US is paying Pakistan not to attack
3. Pakistan has had change of heart

I think No 2 above is correct.


These possibilities may be valid, but there are are others. One need not assume that it is necessarily in US interests to prevent Paki non-state actors from attacking India. The 26/11 attack exhibited shades of this phenomenon. The late Syed Saleem Shahzad was exploring such possibilities.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby rajanb » 14 Jul 2011 07:26

archan wrote:^^ So true. Thanks Atri.


Thanks Atri.

Ambar
BRFite
Posts: 1549
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Ambar » 14 Jul 2011 07:27

shiv wrote:India has to be willing to be wrong.

The US was totally wrong in occupying Afghanistan and paying Pakistan. But it worked for America.

.


I disagree. US is safe because of micro-intelligence, relentlessly placing moles in mosques,monitoring countless chat rooms/forums etc and apprehending the likes of Zazis and Farooq Ahmeds before they could do any damage. And when attacks like USS Cole or Aismal Kansi do happen, the perpetrators are brought to task by hunting them down in the narrow alleys of Somalia or Pakistan after years. This is what i meant by "housekeeping". Although i doubt it if we ever have the will to attack Pakistan, hypothetically say we do, will it stop further IED attacks in India ? I doubt it. Materials and men are dime a dozen in India, "corruption" of allowing "bleaching powder" to get through is no different than selling a AK to a 12 year old and hoping "corruption" ( or profiteering) will be a cloak to mask unpatriotic behavior.

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Pranav » 14 Jul 2011 07:33

shiv wrote:We know all this. But when terrorism occurs the fault is with Catholic ladies, Muslims and the government.


Pliss to avoid strawmen. Ladies presiding over the sucking of blood of poor Indians deserve all the criticism they are getting, even if they don't owe allegiance to a foreign politico-religious multinational corporation.
Last edited by Pranav on 14 Jul 2011 07:39, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 07:37

Pranav wrote:
shiv wrote:We know all this. But when terrorism occurs the fault is with Catholic ladies, Muslims and the government.


Pliss to avoid strawmen. Ladies presiding over the sucking of blood of poor Indians deserve all the criticism they are getting, even if they don't owe allegiance to a religious multinational corporation / foreign political agency like the Vatican.


Oh? I am responsible for bringing in strawmen? I apologise for sullying your innocence. Please continue to blame Catholic ladies and 25 crore minorites. I am no one to stop the truth from spilling out.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 07:38

Ambar wrote:I disagree. US is safe because of micro-intelligence,


You mean they got that for free?

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Pranav » 14 Jul 2011 07:40

shiv wrote:Please continue to blame Catholic ladies and 25 crore minorites. I am no one to stop the truth from spilling out.


This is the strawman.

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 07:41

Stop talking about this on Bharat Rakshak and impeach the politicians/prosecute for political incompetence.

Does the French Revolution ring a bell? Launch a few Brahmos at these terror camps, take the fight to Pakistan. Grow some balls and fight. Talking is useless.

Pakistan won't last 3-4 weeks with an active war with India, and no they won't use nukes.

Stop contemplating the ill effects and just do it. Ignorance is bliss, at least at the end of it all, there won't be more terror strikes.

Offense is the best defense. Launch the air force, stage a coup, I don't care what it takes. Take back the country which belongs to you and solve this problem. Deploy sensor networks, track units which you consider to be anti national. Insert false information, cause division. Do anything it takes to bring them down, negotiation or peace process is not an options. Our nationals are dying and contemplating is not good enough. The status quo doesn't matter if it's one of your relatives that is dying. If the government is the problem, take the problem into your own hands. Put up cameras, sensors in your neighbourhood. Ruthlessly track these individuals and get pay back. Citizens need to stop depending on our worthless government and exercise their right to bear arms to defend themselves. When the enemy banks on your competencies, take the variable out of the problem. Let them deal directly with the people they are trying to hurt. The whole aggression via proxy (Indian government) will not work. The people at the top enjoy the status quo of looting the public. I'm fed up with this bullshit. My countrymen are dying and I'm pissed off.

I'm doing active research in this field specifically to solve this problem; individuals who are not nationals will be tracked passively everywhere they go in India.

People should know instantly who is Indian and who isn't. Create an atmosphere where it is technically impossible to pull off these attacks. Saturate their communications so it's useless.

If you are scared about retaliation, make sure the first strike leaves no room for retaliation. End it before it begins. Thapad maro usko, aur vo chup rahe ga. Uske saath reason kar nehi sakthey.

I've read through 11-12 pages of comments. Everyone is keen on pointing out the problems but not the solutions.

here is the solution:

1) Be assertive - ruthlessly pursue prosecuting politicians
2) Use twitter, facebook, yahoo, cnn, whatever it takes to paint a bad picture of Pakistanm
3) Set up surveillance in your neighbourhood, so if an attack does occur you have evidence of the person committing the crime
4) Look out for your countrymen. Get patriotic damn it. Stop letting pseudo-seculars run the show.
5) If politicians use money to suppress you, create an environment and infrastructure to expose them at any corner.
6) Declare a no fly zone on Pakistan and bomb all of their F-16's
7) Follow the ****** back across the border and deliver justice.

Pakistan is weak right now; be ruthless and take advantage.

Bush invaded Iraq on some assumptions, we have crystal clear evidence. If we have any self respect, we should mobilize now. Use Bharat-Rakshak as a medium to affect India. Find out the problem, and optimize the solution. Find out which variables affect the system most efficiently and tweak until we get the results we need. We need to approach this problem scientifically and rule out possibilities of future attacks. Let's get our shit together folks....
Last edited by Sravan on 14 Jul 2011 08:03, edited 6 times in total.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby rajanb » 14 Jul 2011 07:43

Acharya wrote:
BSR Murthy wrote:
I wish for India a bullheaded, unreasonable nationalist PM with b@lls for a while.

Vote for it. That is the only way. Ask your friends and family to vote for this.


Err....an Indian woman could have the guts to do the same? Why only a man?

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby rajanb » 14 Jul 2011 07:52

chetak wrote:In the meanwhile, back at the ranch..........


India to hand over fresh list of fugitives to Pakistan


Reading this article made me feel sad. We don't have a list that can be printed off in a few seconds? We have to authenticate it? Verify it? Terror just happened to us yesterday? :shock:

So much for our intelligence!

Lets face some home truths:

Corruption helps feed our enemies. I have always questioned the efficiency of utilisation of our tax money.

We don't have the working culture in our central agencies and our state police forces to be able to work effectively on our inputs to successfully nip terror in its tracks.

We don't have the political will to try and stop it because we love vote bank politics and are structured on lines of caste, religion etc.

Sheesh...........
Last edited by rajanb on 14 Jul 2011 07:59, edited 1 time in total.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23273
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby chetak » 14 Jul 2011 07:54

rajanb wrote:
chetak wrote:In the meanwhile, back at the ranch..........


India to hand over fresh list of fugitives to Pakistan


Reading this article made me feel sad. We don't have a list that can be printed off in a few seconds? We have to authenticate it? Verify it? :shock:

So much for our intelligence!



Saar, I disagree with you. :)

So much for the dhoti who runs the show!! :evil:

Raja Ram
BRFite
Posts: 586
Joined: 30 Mar 1999 12:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Raja Ram » 14 Jul 2011 07:55

First and initial reactions.

This time around, the post incident response was far better organized, there was a clear set of protocols in place. The rescue services reached the spot, the Mumbai police QRT and ATS were there to secure the place, public response was calm and generally constructive, the media was kept away from the scene and were kept informed.

From the political leadership perspective, maha CM was on the ground and in command personally with a command center in his office monitoring. No grandstanding by police or army for the media. The Media was briefed by HM and he also set a process of briefing every two hours.

NSG hub in Mumbai was on standby immediately. Special blast expert unit of NSG only had to move from Delhi, the first blast occurred at 645 pm and the team from Delhi went by special plane at 8:15. CFSL teams from hyderabad and delhi was mobilised and sent within hours to blast scene, which was secured and sealed off. The crowd milling around was not allowed at the blast site.

NIA teams as well as Mumbai ATS were on the job within hours.

There is no immediate attribution of blame. The only determination made officially was that it was a coordinated terrorist attack.

So from the above it is clear post incident management is in place. The drills are paying off. The pre incident intelligence analysis has improved, but let us remember that the ******** need to be lucky only once. The defenders need to be lucky all the time.

All in all good response and management of the post incident fall out. The BIG question is - Will the GOI pursue a far more assertive set of options, once the evidence and case is built on the obvious suspect - the Govt, army and people of the TSP. That is something we have to wait and watch.

Gentle Readers, there is no point in attacking the government. We know its faults and predilections. That is something we are responsible for. We elected them. There is also no point in blaming others for this. The US does what it does to protect its citizens and its interests. They have done a darn good job. We want our Government to do the same for us. Only our government can and must do.

Like millions of other fellow Indians, I too wait for that day to come. Hope it does. For there is a limit to everything and that limit in this case of patiently waiting for a change of heart by an intrinsically and deeply flawed neighbour is long gone. Yet we wait and shed blood and tears.

Of what use is impotent rage. It is better to stoic and bear this loss until the powers that be that govern our destiny grow a conscience and spine. Till then, Mother India will cry and bear these losses as she has done for centuries I guess.

Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2466
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Jarita » 14 Jul 2011 08:05

Folks,
How can we assume that Pakistan is the main motivator behind this series of blasts? There could be other scenarios as well that may fit the motive

- Post Mujahideen group directed by pakistan but produced by Aunty
- Provoke communal episodes
- Destabilize government
- Perhaps pushed by KSA
- Destabilize Indias diamond routes because it competes with their own robber barons

- Post Mujahideen group directed by pakistan but pushed by chipanda
- Answer is obvious (attack FDI and development) - remember when they arrested Indian diamond traders; there could be some connection with the diamond trade

- Post Mujahideen group directed by P but pushed by Unkil
- Redirecting energies towards India in a post Osama world; decreasing pressure on Pak & US forces fighting Taliban. Basically giving another bone

- Post Mujahideen group directed by P but pushed by another group
- Could be something around the diamond trade and routes - who benefits by portraying an unstable impression of biggest chunks of diamond supply chain in the world (think blowing up oil pipelines)
- Potentially destabilize existing government and bring in government more friendly to the foreign power that funds this

It may be valuable to think of these other scenarios.
Last edited by Jarita on 14 Jul 2011 08:07, edited 1 time in total.

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:06

Stop praising the response time, this is not a metric we should be proud of. Prevention is better than Treatment. Take the fight across the border and keep it there.

You should still be mad, pissed, furious. Demand action, not answers. Force the politicians to do something exactly like we forced Kalmadi out of office. Throw chapals at them, publicly humiliate them. Exercise your rights as citizens to take back your country. India belongs to you.

Raja Ram wrote:First and initial reactions.

This time around, the post incident response was far better organized, there was a clear set of protocols in place. The rescue services reached the spot, the Mumbai police QRT and ATS were there to secure the place, public response was calm and generally constructive, the media was kept away from the scene and were kept informed.

From the political leadership perspective, maha CM was on the ground and in command personally with a command center in his office monitoring. No grandstanding by police or army for the media. The Media was briefed by HM and he also set a process of briefing every two hours.

NSG hub in Mumbai was on standby immediately. Special blast expert unit of NSG only had to move from Delhi, the first blast occurred at 645 pm and the team from Delhi went by special plane at 8:15. CFSL teams from hyderabad and delhi was mobilised and sent within hours to blast scene, which was secured and sealed off. The crowd milling around was not allowed at the blast site.

NIA teams as well as Mumbai ATS were on the job within hours.

There is no immediate attribution of blame. The only determination made officially was that it was a coordinated terrorist attack.

So from the above it is clear post incident management is in place. The drills are paying off. The pre incident intelligence analysis has improved, but let us remember that the ******** need to be lucky only once. The defenders need to be lucky all the time.

All in all good response and management of the post incident fall out. The BIG question is - Will the GOI pursue a far more assertive set of options, once the evidence and case is built on the obvious suspect - the Govt, army and people of the TSP. That is something we have to wait and watch.

Gentle Readers, there is no point in attacking the government. We know its faults and predilections. That is something we are responsible for. We elected them. There is also no point in blaming others for this. The US does what it does to protect its citizens and its interests. They have done a darn good job. We want our Government to do the same for us. Only our government can and must do.

Like millions of other fellow Indians, I too wait for that day to come. Hope it does. For there is a limit to everything and that limit in this case of patiently waiting for a change of heart by an intrinsically and deeply flawed neighbour is long gone. Yet we wait and shed blood and tears.

Of what use is impotent rage. It is better to stoic and bear this loss until the powers that be that govern our destiny grow a conscience and spine. Till then, Mother India will cry and bear these losses as she has done for centuries I guess.

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:09

Get into the fight so we can dictate terms. All these conspiracy theories are crap. Look at the facts, your nation has been repeatedly bombed and attacked. Who cares about who funded them, who instigated them, and the motives behind this. Physical engagement will lead to answers. Whip the dog and it will go crying to it's master.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20952
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Philip » 14 Jul 2011 08:15

This has been clearly timed to coincide with Pak's current problems with the US in Af-Pak,where Pak has threatened to bring back its troops on the Afghan border,ostensibly fighting the anti-US "Taliban"/Al Q,who are peppering the US's backside and complicating their planned retreat .Forced to also fight anti-Pak Islamist forces and commit approx. 125,000+ troops into the "war",the Paki military and ISI are desperate for a way out of doing Uncle Sam's bidding and suffer large-scale losses sharply weakening their traditional battleplan against India.Stung with the suspension of a few crumbs of aid from the US,Pak has decided to go it alone-detach itself from US diktat,but needs another crisis to redeploy its troops to their usual "hate-India" locations to avoid the full wrath of Uncle Sam.The impotent,wimpish UPA leadership however cannot even "show the flag" to Pak and rpovoke a crisis,thereby another round of terror attacks against the Indian state must be perpatrated to spur S.I.Singh and his company of Keystone cops into provoking Pak and allowing its planned redeployment on the Indian border,letting the beardies have a go at the US and NATO without fear of Paki bayonets up their "Khyber"!

Watch now for the umpteenth time the hollow cries of "teaching the enemy a lesson","punishing Pak (by holding another round of cricket matches?) severely","finding the terrorists responsible and dealing with them (how about Kasab and the Parliament guilty one still enjoying the hospitality of the Indian state when they should've been punished for their acts by now?)",ad infinitum.We have seen it happen again and again.S.I.Singh has been the biggest sick joke ever to have led India.In fact no enemy agent would have been able to have done so much damage to the security of the Indian state.The best reshuffle that he could've made was to have jumped into the garbage bin of Indian politics and done the nation a huge favour.
Last edited by Philip on 14 Jul 2011 08:16, edited 1 time in total.

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:16

If you think it is China & Pakistan nexus, let's contemplate this. China is too high profile to do anything directly, even if the orders were issued from China and Pakistan followed; we need to pursue up the chain of command to make it hurt.

Any action movie, the hero starts roughing up the local goonda and keeps escalating the price of being screwed with. Up the ante and bring the big players into the game if they are behind it. Otherwise it is just Pakistan that gets a whipping. Instead of splitting Pakistan, overthrow their government and army and prosecute every ISI official for war against India.

Jarita wrote:Folks,
How can we assume that Pakistan is the main motivator behind this series of blasts? There could be other scenarios as well that may fit the motive

- Post Mujahideen group directed by pakistan but produced by Aunty
- Provoke communal episodes
- Destabilize government
- Perhaps pushed by KSA
- Destabilize Indias diamond routes because it competes with their own robber barons

- Post Mujahideen group directed by pakistan but pushed by chipanda
- Answer is obvious (attack FDI and development) - remember when they arrested Indian diamond traders; there could be some connection with the diamond trade

- Post Mujahideen group directed by P but pushed by Unkil
- Redirecting energies towards India in a post Osama world; decreasing pressure on Pak & US forces fighting Taliban. Basically giving another bone

- Post Mujahideen group directed by P but pushed by another group
- Could be something around the diamond trade and routes - who benefits by portraying an unstable impression of biggest chunks of diamond supply chain in the world (think blowing up oil pipelines)
- Potentially destabilize existing government and bring in government more friendly to the foreign power that funds this

It may be valuable to think of these other scenarios.

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:19

The thinking and intentions don't matter after you reach a critical mass in hurting them. Their calculations are based on brief skirmishes. India should navally blockade Pakistan, and take this as an act of war. Let them run out of Oil and roll in with our Tanks. Launch a couple brahmos strikes at key targets if we know their where abouts and declare Pakistan a no fly zone. We have the logistics to do, so let's get a move on.

Philip wrote:This has been clearly timed to coincide with Pak's current problems with the US in Af-Pak,where Pak has threatened to bring back its troops on the Afghan border,ostensibly fighting the anti-US "Taliban"/Al Q,who are peppering the US's backside and complicating their planned retreat .Forced to also fight anti-Pak Islamist forces and commit approx. 125,000+ troops into the "war",the Paki military and ISI are desperate for a way out of doing Uncle Sam's bidding and suffer large-scale losses sharply weakening their traditional battleplan against India.Stung with the suspension of a few crumbs of aid from the US,Pak has decided to go it alone-detach itself from US diktat,but needs another crisis to redeploy its troops to their usual "hate-India" locations to avoid the full wrath of Uncle Sam.The impotent,wimpish UPA leadership however cannot even "show the flag" to Pak and rpovoke a crisis,thereby another round of terror attacks against the Indian state must be perpatrated to spur S.I.Singh and his company of Keystone cops into provoking Pak and allowing its planned redeployment on the Indian border,letting the beardies have a go at the US and NATO without fear of Paki bayonets up their "Khyber"!

Watch now for the umpteenth time the hollow cries of "teaching the enemy a lesson","punishing Pak (by holding another round of cricket matches?) severely","finding the terrorists responsible and dealing with them (how about Kasab and the Parliament guilty one still enjoying the hospitality of the Indian state when they should've been punished for their acts by now?)",ad infinitum.We have seen it happen again and again.S.I.Singh has been the biggest sick joke ever to have led India.In fact no enemy agent would have been able to have done so much damage to the security of the Indian state.The best reshuffle that he could've made was to have jumped into the garbage bin of Indian politics and done the nation a huge favour.

skumar
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 30 Nov 2008 08:22

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby skumar » 14 Jul 2011 08:19

shiv wrote:Changing our government and putting a "nationalist party in power will make absolutely no difference. Nothing will be done, but people will be happy for 3-4 years saying "Give them time - they need to undo all the bad things done by psec governments"

Mumbaikars will bounce back until the next attack. Pakistan too will bounce back until the next set of US sanctions.


Many elements of the "nationalist party" have no doubt made their pacts with the devils. I am not sure about others - it could depend on who comes back. The "secular party" has proved itself time and again, winning more times and more comprehensively than the "nationalist party" in the race for greed and incompetence. So, is it asking too much to keep the flickering light of hope alive?
Last edited by skumar on 14 Jul 2011 08:22, edited 1 time in total.

AKalam
BRFite
Posts: 285
Joined: 04 Jan 2009 05:34
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby AKalam » 14 Jul 2011 08:20

My condolences to the people who have lost their lives, who were injured and their love ones. Whoever was behind this heinous attack, should be found, hunted down and brought to justice.

Shankas
BRFite
Posts: 232
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 19:41
Location: Toronto & Mumbai

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Shankas » 14 Jul 2011 08:21

Vikram W wrote:New nomenclature request - In BR parlance can we start calling D-company as Hijra company ?

Why? Do you want to insult Hijra's?

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:23

Fix it. There is no point bitching about it. This is a wake up call from one citizen to another. Do everything within your power to fight the menace. Make it so any corruption in your neighborhood is traceable and punished. Upload proof to social media sites, use the masses to affect change. Figure out what needs to be done to address each specific problem and then execute.

rajanb wrote:
chetak wrote:In the meanwhile, back at the ranch..........


India to hand over fresh list of fugitives to Pakistan


Reading this article made me feel sad. We don't have a list that can be printed off in a few seconds? We have to authenticate it? Verify it? Terror just happened to us yesterday? :shock:

So much for our intelligence!

Lets face some home truths:

Corruption helps feed our enemies. I have always questioned the efficiency of utilisation of our tax money.

We don't have the working culture in our central agencies and our state police forces to be able to work effectively on our inputs to successfully nip terror in its tracks.

We don't have the political will to try and stop it because we love vote bank politics and are structured on lines of caste, religion etc.

Sheesh...........

Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7096
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Muppalla » 14 Jul 2011 08:24

Sravan wrote:Stop praising the response time, this is not a metric we should be proud of. Prevention is better than Treatment. Take the fight across the border and keep it there.

You should still be mad, pissed, furious. Demand action, not answers. Force the politicians to do something exactly like we forced Kalmadi out of office. Throw chapals at them, publicly humiliate them. Exercise your rights as citizens to take back your country. India belongs to you.


Sorry to say this but there is no way that India can prevent terror attacks. Period. We should get out of it from our brains. Even if we attack pakistan and even if we dismember it we will will still have terror attacks. We should still do those too but never expect that terror will be gone.

Hence we should concentrate on good defences, excellence in internal security and intelligence. If India de-politicizes these and also make them independent with adequate resources they can do pretty good. In addition, if India can increase the cost of each terror attack for the enemy then that will decrease further. Once in a month will become once in a year to that of once in five years.

It is more of defences and a few flavors of offence will keep India safe. This attack is too cheap for the perpetrator.

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:27

Why should we depend on people who have failed to deliver? Either change the system or make the system a non-party to the problem by approaching it yourself. Show leadership in your community, arrange meetings, raise awareness. Get shit done instead of talking about it or contemplating what will happen. Doing it will give you the experience, the know how, the infrastructure, the drive to bring about change. The more change you bring, the more efficient you will be at influencing society.

skumar wrote:
shiv wrote:Changing our government and putting a "nationalist party in power will make absolutely no difference. Nothing will be done, but people will be happy for 3-4 years saying "Give them time - they need to undo all the bad things done by psec governments"

Mumbaikars will bounce back until the next attack. Pakistan too will bounce back until the next set of US sanctions.


Many elements of the "nationalist party" have no doubt made their pacts with the devils. I am not sure about others - it could depend on who comes back. The "secular party" has proved itself time and again, winning more times and more comprehensively than the "nationalist party" in the race for greed and incompetence. So, is it asking too much to keep the flickering light of hope alive?

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2611
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 Jul 2011 08:28

Some thoughts on how the blame attribution will go. Chidu & MMS are in a bit of a spot right now. They have 2 unpalatable options:

a) Point out that the evidence points to TSP/ISI: this will lead to angry demands from Indians to act decisively - translation: military option. This is something this Govt is not willing to do

b) Point out that it was IM behind it: this will lead to public embarrassment. There is a ground-swell of support for India worldwide and there is unanimity that TSP is behind the attacks. A public admission that it was IM would dissipate this world-view. TSP will talk about how we are *both* victims of terror and must *work together* to resolve it. The 3.5 friends will indulge in more equal-equal.

So, the way I see the MMS/Chidu spin working is one or both of the following:

1) Emphasize that it was a joint IM-LeT operation. Within India, emphasize the IM angle and outside India, emphasize the LeT angle. The IM angle will allow the GOI to keep the local populace from demanding Paki blood. The LeT angle will give the GOI continued leverage against Pakistan, while continuing to send dossiers

2) Let the track run cold (at least in the public eye). In 2 weeks, the media will anyway be talking about who Yuvraj Singh is dating. Praise Mumbaikars for their spirit. Continue the investigations behind the scenes. If IM members are found guilty and arrested, Chidu & MMS have a clear conscience - they prosecuted the guilty without making a fuss

Lets see how it plays out. I am of the opinion that India has lost the art of producing quality spinners - I might be proved wrong.

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16148
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby SwamyG » 14 Jul 2011 08:31

shiv wrote:When the home minister Patil says on 26/11 "These things will happen" - he is only saying what I have said above. He is being honest. If he was a more astute politician he would say "We will respond in kind" and make people feel happy at the boldness. Jayalalitha did that recently. She knows how to handle the system. When people were upset at a boy being shot in an army area she made a big noise to say "The culprits will be brought to book. The army will not get away" The people were happy. They shut up. Only BRF whined. But if she had been honest the people would have cursed her.

As usual, you are spot on. JJ can come off as a no nonsense lady. If only if she controls herself, she would be a superb leader. If one observes the statements of US Presidents, they are akin to what JJ or other responsible or arrogant leaders say out aloud. After 9/11 Bush said America would go after the culprits, and it did. The Americans supported the "just" war. They opposed it when he took a diversion to Iraq. People lost all hopes, but then as luck would have it OBL went to meet his 72. The stereotype of the country going after the culprits is further etched in the citizens minds. JJ got her Army officer. Uncle Sam got his OBL. MMS does not say it maybe
1) He believes India cannot do it - does not have the capability.
2) He believes it is not wise for India to do it - he probably thinks it will hurt us more by going after Pakistan and is okay to wait it out till Pakistan dies of natural causes.

He cannot say either of these aloud in public. His option is to offer some platitudes. The end result is we appear weak. JJ probably had nothing to lose by her noise. TN people have short memory. Uncle made the noise, because they believed they could do it. What does MMS believe?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 08:31

Pranav wrote:
shiv wrote:Please continue to blame Catholic ladies and 25 crore minorites. I am no one to stop the truth from spilling out.


This is the strawman.


What strawman?

Here is a poll that we had on BRF
Image

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:32

Wrong, India doesn't have to go through this subjugation. This is the dhimmi attitude they are exploiting. There is money and power behind these attacks and those people love the status quo. Make a couple examples out of them and the trend will stop. Following the proxy directly up the chain of command and kill the source.

If you think their culture is the problem; keep them busy fighting in their country by facilitating a civil war.

Support the coups which are in your favor and keep recycling the leaders until you have influence over that society completely. Subjugate them to the dhimmi attitude you have gotten used to.

Sorry for being harsh on you, but you need to snap out of it man! We are talking about our nation being repeatedly humiliated and terrorized.

Muppalla wrote:
Sravan wrote:Stop praising the response time, this is not a metric we should be proud of. Prevention is better than Treatment. Take the fight across the border and keep it there.

You should still be mad, pissed, furious. Demand action, not answers. Force the politicians to do something exactly like we forced Kalmadi out of office. Throw chapals at them, publicly humiliate them. Exercise your rights as citizens to take back your country. India belongs to you.


Sorry to say this but there is no way that India can prevent terror attacks. Period. We should get out of it from our brains. Even if we attack pakistan and even if we dismember it we will will still have terror attacks. We should still do those too but never expect that terror will be gone.

Hence we should concentrate on good defences, excellence in internal security and intelligence. If India de-politicizes these and also make them independent with adequate resources they can do pretty good. In addition, if India can increase the cost of each terror attack for the enemy then that will decrease further. Once in a month will become once in a year to that of once in five years.

It is more of defences and a few flavors of offence will keep India safe. This attack is too cheap for the perpetrator.

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:35

Launch an investigative journal to expose the fallacies of their claims. Make efforts to raise money to broadcast media which supports your views. Facilitate readership amongst the public by introducing transparency in media. create a blog which critiques the publications of the Indian government. Expose the anti-nationals that are in power. Analyze twitter to follow trends in various governmental decisions and scientifically & calculatingly steer the Indian society in the right direction.

Publish scientific journals, or create a transparency index like wiki leaks.

The assholes should be scared to falsely report anything, because you will be on them like tapioca sauce.
Prem Kumar wrote:Some thoughts on how the blame attribution will go. Chidu & MMS are in a bit of a spot right now. They have 2 unpalatable options:

a) Point out that the evidence points to TSP/ISI: this will lead to angry demands from Indians to act decisively - translation: military option. This is something this Govt is not willing to do

b) Point out that it was IM behind it: this will lead to public embarrassment. There is a ground-swell of support for India worldwide and there is unanimity that TSP is behind the attacks. A public admission that it was IM would dissipate this world-view. TSP will talk about how we are *both* victims of terror and must *work together* to resolve it. The 3.5 friends will indulge in more equal-equal.

So, the way I see the MMS/Chidu spin working is one or both of the following:

1) Emphasize that it was a joint IM-LeT operation. Within India, emphasize the IM angle and outside India, emphasize the LeT angle. The IM angle will allow the GOI to keep the local populace from demanding Paki blood. The LeT angle will give the GOI continued leverage against Pakistan, while continuing to send dossiers

2) Let the track run cold (at least in the public eye). In 2 weeks, the media will anyway be talking about who Yuvraj Singh is dating. Praise Mumbaikars for their spirit. Continue the investigations behind the scenes. If IM members are found guilty and arrested, Chidu & MMS have a clear conscience - they prosecuted the guilty without making a fuss

Lets see how it plays out. I am of the opinion that India has lost the art of producing quality spinners - I might be proved wrong.
Last edited by Sravan on 14 Jul 2011 08:37, edited 1 time in total.

AnantD
BRFite
Posts: 194
Joined: 04 Mar 2001 12:31
Location: Aurora, Illinois, USA

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby AnantD » 14 Jul 2011 08:37

The only way to respond against terrorism is direct, targeted attacks to finish the ISI, TSPA leadership, without much collateral damage outside.

Forget the three items of BS:

1. The US will come to TSP's help in this case
2. China will respond to help theil tallel than mtn fliend
3. TSP will go nuke on India

Hit now, hit very targeted.

The rest of the aam abduls can be dealt with later.
Last edited by AnantD on 14 Jul 2011 08:38, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 08:37

SwamyG wrote: What does MMS believe?


The answer was posted before you asked the question
Prem Kumar wrote:2 unpalatable options:

a) Point out that the evidence points to TSP/ISI: this will lead to angry demands from Indians to act decisively - translation: military option. This is something this Govt is not willing to do

b) Point out that it was IM behind it: this will lead to public embarrassment. There is a ground-swell of support for India worldwide and there is unanimity that TSP is behind the attacks. A public admission that it was IM would dissipate this world-view. TSP will talk about how we are *both* victims of terror and must *work together* to resolve it. The 3.5 friends will indulge in more equal-equal.

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:38

Finally someone who has seen the fallacies of talking to them and their BS.

AnantD wrote:The only way to respind against this is direct, targheted attacks to finish the ISI, TSPA leadership, without much collateral damage.

Forget the three items of BS:

1. The US will come to TSP's help in this case
2. China will respond to help theil tallel than mtn fliend
3. TSP will go nuke on India

Hit now, hit very targetted.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 08:40

Sravan wrote: There is money and power behind these attacks


Where is the money coming from?

skumar
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 30 Nov 2008 08:22

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby skumar » 14 Jul 2011 08:41

Sravan wrote:Why should we depend on people who have failed to deliver? Either change the system or make the system a non-party to the problem by approaching it yourself. Show leadership in your community, arrange meetings, raise awareness. Get shit done instead of talking about it or contemplating what will happen. Doing it will give you the experience, the know how, the infrastructure, the drive to bring about change. The more change you bring, the more efficient you will be at influencing society.

skumar wrote:Many elements of the "nationalist party" have no doubt made their pacts with the devils. I am not sure about others - it could depend on who comes back. The "secular party" has proved itself time and again, winning more times and more comprehensively than the "nationalist party" in the race for greed and incompetence. So, is it asking too much to keep the flickering light of hope alive?


Oh, so you mean we change the system before we fix this problem? Or by "Show leadership in your community, arrange meetings, raise awareness. Get shit done instead of talking about it or contemplating what will happen. Doing it will give you the experience, the know how, the infrastructure, the drive to bring about change. The more change you bring, the more efficient you will be at influencing society.", you think that the immediate terror problem will be resolved? H***, "civil society" has not been able to get a civil bill passed. Can this be resolved by a mass movement?

And, if you cannot change the system or do the other things, then we depend more on the guys who have failed more often and more comprehensively?

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:46

US, China, UK, Pakistan, Saudi, maybe even India.

We won't know until we wring out some answers. If it is a 3rd party power and hold them accountable and humiliate them at every chance. Take the moral high ground, use your soft power to propagate your national strengths and values.

shiv wrote:
Sravan wrote: There is money and power behind these attacks


Where is the money coming from?

AnantD
BRFite
Posts: 194
Joined: 04 Mar 2001 12:31
Location: Aurora, Illinois, USA

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby AnantD » 14 Jul 2011 08:49

Repeat again:

The only way to respond against terrorism is direct, targeted attacks to finish the ISI, TSPA leadership, without much collateral damage outside.

Forget the three items of BS:

1. The US will come to TSP's help in this case
2. China will respond to help theil tallel than mtn fliend
3. TSP will go nuke on India

Hit now, hit very targeted.

The rest of the aam abduls can be dealt with later.

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:52

Ever heard of viral marketing? leveraging social media to bring change. Do you know how efficiently you can control mass opinion with social media?

leverage the crowd sourced media and you can immediately create a medium to call out others on bullshit. How do you think wikileaks works.

Short term goals are simple. Attack a few terror camps which we have solid evidence about. I'm telling you regarding both short term and long term goals. However to achieve the short term goals as a citizen of a democracy you need to establish a system even if it's patchy to bring about change. Create a citizen driven institution with or without the approval of any governance to bring about information. Knowledge is power, leverage it and you will be successful in bringing about change.

Sravan wrote:Why should we depend on people who have failed to deliver? Either change the system or make the system a non-party to the problem by approaching it yourself. Show leadership in your community, arrange meetings, raise awareness. Get shit done instead of talking about it or contemplating what will happen. Doing it will give you the experience, the know how, the infrastructure, the drive to bring about change. The more change you bring, the more efficient you will be at influencing society.

Sravan
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 08:55

If anyone else is confused or unmotivated. I'll give you a solution. Thapad maro usko. Let's unite and do this....

ManishH
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 21 Sep 2010 16:53
Location: Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democractic republic

Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby ManishH » 14 Jul 2011 08:56

Forensics will be interesting on this one. Early reports say that Ammonium Nitrate was used for this attack. But more interesting will be the IED trigger itself. I think use of Ammonium Nitrate, instead of plastic explosive, is a deliberate ruse to deflect suspicion from the real origin - TSP.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ravikr, sidp, Varuna and 53 guests