Serial Blasts in Mumbai

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PratikDas
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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby PratikDas » 14 Jul 2011 09:00

Sravan, if you're being hit by a volley of posts by the time I post this, then I apologise. My post isn't meant to add to it. I just wanted to bring to your attention that corruption in India isn't only confined to politicians. The logical extension of that is there are corrupt individuals in many homes and they're usually the bread winners who play a dominant role in their families. Do not expect these people to rally those around them.

Assuming for a second, and it might even be true - I wouldn't know, that Baba Ramdev is 100% clean. How many devout Hindus did you see taking to streets to protest his group getting lathi charged and tear gassed? Do you see those devout Hindus protesting outside your window now?

If you expect honest, poor, rural Indian villagers to march to the cities and stage a people's coup, then that isn't going to happen either. They're preoccupied with managing their condition.

I don't even expect college student unions to be suitable for rallying the masses. Most college student unions are breeding grounds either for corrupt politicians or their goons.

There is one group that gets paid to put their lives on the line, one that is the most prepared to make a difference at any given time. They are the armed forces. Since only the Prime Minister can unleash that can of whoopass, one must question what is stopping him from doing so. Prem Kumar's post gives you the answer.
Last edited by PratikDas on 14 Jul 2011 09:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:01

Does anyone want to volunteer to create a list of all the places where these materials are sold near and around Mumbai?

We should create an interface where a distributor can upload information about all transactions into a central database. We should create an index to keep track of all movement of this material and pass a local law that tracks the usage down to the kilogram.

Anyone want to take the initiative to do this?

ManishH wrote:Forensics will be interesting on this one. Early reports say that Ammonium Nitrate was used for this attack. But more interesting will be the IED trigger itself. I think use of Ammonium Nitrate, instead of plastic explosive, is a deliberate ruse to deflect suspicion from the real origin - TSP.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby VikramS » 14 Jul 2011 09:02

shiv:
It all boils down to breaking down the Politician-criminal nexus. D-Company is a known ISI asset. However these politician scum do not have any problem dealing with him. The cleansing has to start at the top.

Sometimes I wonder whether the absence of armed citizens and militias emboldens the scum politicians. In India only the outlaws carry arms, and they carry them under political patronage. The politicians have no fear. That needs to change.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby merlin » 14 Jul 2011 09:05

What actually got my goat was that on the election day of the first state elections after 26/11, Mumbaikars actually voted the Congress-NCP coalition back into power! I mean WTF, don't people learn any lessons?

I doubt there is anything that people can do when their own government cannot protect them (or does not want to).

Heartfelt condolences to Mumbaikars who lost their loved ones. So glad to learn that Rudradev's parents are safe.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:08

So the problem here is the efficiency factor. If you treat this like a huge optimization problem.

You can specifically identify each variable that is affecting the system. In this post you clearly cite the first being time as expensive. #2 being a family's bread winner as authoritative in what goes on.

What I am proposing is creating a counter system which empowers the citizen to bring about change passively. The system will accumulate knowledge and influence the higher ups as a unit as opposed to a fragmented force. *think about labor unions*

However the only agenda this system will have is to make India safer and the information it collects is tapping into any resource that are readily available and voluntarily shared. India is the largest mobile market in the world and still growing.

We should create a nodal system where a mobile phone can ping an alert system to the surrounding mobile phones using peer to peer communication. Or if the police are handling a case, they can propagate communication to a group of people who have gps to avoid a certain area of a city. Passive information increases efficiency. Increasing efficiency let's you take bigger more systemic problems.

The approach to this should be clearly scientific. Identify and document the variables which are holding us back and go through every permutation of ideas listed to address those problems. Use social networking information to measure the metrics on how what you are doing affects the system. Rinse and repeat.

This approach always isolates the bottle neck and lowest common denominator very quickly, you can leverage this to focus all of your anger on fixing that single variable. Once that is solved, you identify the next bottle neck and move on. All we are dealing with is a big optimization problem.

Example: when India's parliament was attacked in 2002, the government backed off because of pressure from Corporates.

Variable : Economic stability during war.

Is this the bottleneck that effects us the most? Find out what's orthogonal between the two and tweak the system to the optimal setting so they two don't step on each other's toes. Move on to the next variable. Once you do one iteration, examine the affects on the system and document the results. Repeat the process with the newly available information.

We need to do a depth first search in tackling terrorism, and not try to digest it all at once. It's too big for us to chew, we need to break it into little pieces. For that optimization is required. This is the same way anti-bodies break up and digest viruses. You need to figure out the optimal structure to break the enemy apart.

Let's enable the people to crowd source investigations. We can employ a farmer / worker strategy of investigating our surroundings and piecing information together using the cloud.

PratikDas wrote:Sravan, if you're being hit by a volley of posts by the time I post this, then I apologise. My post isn't meant to add to it. I just wanted to bring to your attention that corruption in India isn't only confined to politicians. The logical extension of that is there are corrupt individuals in many homes and they're usually the bread winners who play a dominant role in their families. Do not expect these people to rally those around them.

Assuming for a second, and it might even be true - I wouldn't know, that Baba Ramdev is 100% clean. How many devout Hindus did you see taking to streets to protest his group getting lathi charged and tear gassed? Do you see those devout Hindus protesting outside your window now?

If you expect honest, poor, rural Indian villagers to march to the cities and stage a people's coup, then that isn't going to happen either. They're preoccupied with managing their condition.

I don't even expect college student unions to be suitable for rallying the masses. Most college student unions are breeding grounds either for corrupt politicians or their goons.

There is one group that gets paid to put their lives on the line and that is the most prepared to make a difference at any given time. They are the armed forces. Since only the Prime Minister can unleash that can of whoopass, one must question what is stopping him from doing so. Prem Kumar's post gives you the answer.
Last edited by Sravan on 14 Jul 2011 09:29, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 09:12

VikramS wrote:shiv:
It all boils down to breaking down the Politician-criminal nexus. D-Company is a known ISI asset. However these politician scum do not have any problem dealing with him. The cleansing has to start at the top.

Sometimes I wonder whether the absence of armed citizens and militias emboldens the scum politicians. In India only the outlaws carry arms, and they carry them under political patronage. The politicians have no fear. That needs to change.


Vikram what w are seeing is a classic case of "The squeaky wheel gets the most grease". Indians are alerted to the rot in the system only when terrorism occurs. At other times they are oblivious. it pains me to think about it - but I have been posting this on and of on BRF for years. Even senior citizens of India don't know how the government works. Where there is a local civic issue to solve (say bribes for a building licence)educated Indians balk at the thought of correcting the system but choose to honor and beg some corporator who does a temporary fix that does not clean up the system.

While the easy description is to say that "We Indians are all responsible for the mess" the real truth is that we as a nation are naive and ignorant. Or mindset is just like that of our parents and grandparents who were ruled by the compassion of a "wise" King or the "wise" British. When we feel pain - we appeal to our patrons - the rajas, the ministers. But when we are not feeling any pain we choose not to check what the rajas/rulers are doing.

I believe I have both good news and bad news.

The good news is that Indians are gradually becoming aware of what is happening in giovernment. Things will change.

The bad news is that things will take 40 years to change.

What will happen in the 40 years? Will we have to suffer terrorist attacks from Pakistan for 40 years till things change? or can we "fix" things so Pakistan is finished? I don't know. More likely we will suffer terror for 40 years and allow Pakistan to survive.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 09:15

merlin wrote:What actually got my goat was that on the election day of the first state elections after 26/11, Mumbaikars actually voted the Congress-NCP coalition back into power! I mean WTF, don't people learn any lessons?

Which parties lost? Clearly the party that won has a better reputation than those that lost. Perhaps we can see what is considered good if we see who lost. Mumbaikars may have a choice between bullshit and worse than bullshit

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby ashkrishna » 14 Jul 2011 09:16

For by art is created that great Leviathan called a Commonwealth, or State
(in Latin, Civitas), which is but an artificial man, though of greater stature
and strength than the natural, for whose protection and defence it was intended;
and in which the sovereignty is an artificial soul, as giving life and
motion to the whole body; the magistrates and other officers of judicature
and execution, artificial joints; reward and punishment (by which fastened
to the seat of the sovereignty, every joint and member is moved to perform
his duty) are the nerves, that do the same in the body natural; the wealth and
riches of all the particular members are the strength; salus populi (the people’s
safety) its business
; counsellors, by whom all things needful for it to know
are suggested unto it, are the memory; equity and laws, an artificial reason
and will; concord, health; sedition, sickness; and civil war, death


- Thomas Hobbes, Levithian

Security of the constituent citizens is the primary responsibility of the state - Salus Populi. What is the business of the Indian state?

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby ManishH » 14 Jul 2011 09:17

Sravan wrote:Does anyone want to volunteer to create a list of all the places where these materials are sold near and around Mumbai?


I don't know how they manage to track fertilizer purchases in USA - they started doing this after the Oklahoma City bombing. Probably the use of SS numbers and credit cards make it easier there.

But it'll be very difficult to do the same in India where fertilizers are purchased by cash in the normal course. Not to mention the possibility of grey market sales of subsidized fertilizer.

I think more promising is the IED trigger itself. If it's a timer based one, NIA can trace the batch codes of electronic components in the trigger. If it's a cellphone triggered one, it can probably trace the origin of the triggering call. Of course tracing it to the perpetrators will need a functional CCTV whose images can be used in a humint network.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 09:18

Sravan wrote:We should create a nodal system where a mobile phone can ping an alert system to the surrounding mobile phones using peer to peer communication. Or if the police are handling a case, they can propagate communication to a group of people who have gps to avoid a certain area of a city. Passive information increases efficiency. Increasing efficiency let's you take bigger more systemic problems.

A better system than this is already operational in parts of Bangalore. Large electronic signboards on major arterial roads have messages from the police indicating hold ups, reasons and areas to avoid. People on roads cannot access mobile messages.
Last edited by shiv on 14 Jul 2011 09:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby VikramS » 14 Jul 2011 09:19

shiv:

The problem is that the politicians and the elected representative also act in a manner that once elected they are the kings/britishers. They try to get as much as they can. The social contract which is implied by their election is not worth anything to them.

Educating Indians about what to expect from their government is perhaps the first task to bringing in accountability to the system.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:20

Correlate biometric fingerprints between purchases. If you are not a repeat customer, ask for formal ID.

ManishH wrote:
Sravan wrote:Does anyone want to volunteer to create a list of all the places where these materials are sold near and around Mumbai?


I don't know how they manage to track fertilizer purchases in USA - they started doing this after the Oklahoma City bombing. Probably the use of SS numbers and credit cards make it easier there.

But it'll be very difficult to do the same in India where fertilizers are purchased by cash in the normal course. Not to mention the possibility of grey market sales of subsidized fertilizer.

I think more promising is the IED trigger itself. If it's a timer based one, NIA can trace the batch codes of electronic components in the trigger. If it's a cellphone triggered one, it can probably trace the origin of the triggering call. Of course tracing it to the perpetrators will need a functional CCTV whose images can be used in a humint network.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:21

This banks on physical infrastructure being placed by an institution. Why not leverage what everyone already owns?

I am working on a smart phone app that will be useful towards bio-metric tracking in a social networking aspect. The main purpose of doing this is to increase transparency around your surroundings. It creates a biometric fingerprint (facial recognition) in real time and correlates it to the fingerprints of the people in your surrounding area. It's main use is exchange of digital information without any physical object, however one of it's use cases is also quickly identify who any individual is. Only bottleneck is that it only works on smart phones, however the fingerprints can be passively queried by any CCTV cameras.

Ping me if you guys have questions about this system, I need some help tweaking it, so it doesn't infringe on privacy, but it should be usable during emergencies.

The system gets more comprehensive over time. As more and more users use it, there will be less and less people who are unidentifiable. This will be effective in metro's like Mumbai. The idea is that if everyone can use it, neighborhoods can setup store bought cameras in their house and link their webcams to the network of biometric fingerprints. Any person passing by can be actively picked up. You can A either set triggers to record when someone non-identifiable walks by, or B crowd source information about anyone who is not identified by the system. We can then quickly triangulate who was where, whether or not they are indian and who was around them at the time.

This data is then sent to the police to start investigations, etc etc.

shiv wrote:
Sravan wrote:We should create a nodal system where a mobile phone can ping an alert system to the surrounding mobile phones using peer to peer communication. Or if the police are handling a case, they can propagate communication to a group of people who have gps to avoid a certain area of a city. Passive information increases efficiency. Increasing efficiency let's you take bigger more systemic problems.

A better system than this is already operational in parts of Bangalore. Large electronic signboards on major arterial roads have messages from the police indicating hold ups, reasons and areas to avoid. People on roads cannot access mobile messages.
Last edited by Sravan on 14 Jul 2011 09:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Jul 2011 09:24

merlin wrote:What actually got my goat was that on the election day of the first state elections after 26/11, Mumbaikars actually voted the Congress-NCP coalition back into power! I mean WTF, don't people learn any lessons?


+1 onlee.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 09:26

VikramS wrote:shiv:

The problem is that the politicians and the elected representative also act in a manner that once elected they are the kings/britishers. They try to get as much as they can. The social contract which is implied by their election is not worth anything to them.

Educating Indians about what to expect from their government is perhaps the first task to bringing in accountability to the system.


Vikram if you studied in school in India were you taught how the government works? Were you taught about paying taxes and what was done with the taxes? It is still not taught in India. You are taught about Aurangzeb's benevolence though.

It astounds me to find, in my peer group in Bangalore, hundreds of highly intelligent hardworking honest people who pay all their taxes regularly - who do not have a clue what happens to the money. They don't even ask. They don;t even know that there is a system which they can use to find out.

Some of the most minor politicans act like kings because we treat them like kings. We don't know how to do anything different. If a hospital is to be inaugurated, a corporator is called and he is described as "the right honorable Choo Tiyaji "

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby VikramS » 14 Jul 2011 09:30

The civic test books did talk about local councils etc.

Regarding Alamgir, I think the founding fathers some how thought that to leave peacefully the past has to be forgotten and buried. They forgot that those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. It is OK to forgive; not to forget. That difference was lost.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:35

We can crowd source this and piece together the information and hold the government accountable. use twitter to get feeds regarding any environment and cross reference it with government documents on expenditure. Leverage RTI to gather a database of government documents and hold them accountable for their crimes using this documented proof.

shiv wrote:
VikramS wrote:shiv:

The problem is that the politicians and the elected representative also act in a manner that once elected they are the kings/britishers. They try to get as much as they can. The social contract which is implied by their election is not worth anything to them.

Educating Indians about what to expect from their government is perhaps the first task to bringing in accountability to the system.


Vikram if you studied in school in India were you taught how the government works? Were you taught about paying taxes and what was done with the taxes? It is still not taught in India. You are taught about Aurangzeb's benevolence though.

It astounds me to find, in my peer group in Bangalore, hundreds of highly intelligent hardworking honest people who pay all their taxes regularly - who do not have a clue what happens to the money. They don't even ask. They don;t even know that there is a system which they can use to find out.

Some of the most minor politicans act like kings because we treat them like kings. We don't know how to do anything different. If a hospital is to be inaugurated, a corporator is called and he is described as "the right honorable Choo Tiyaji "

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Dilbu » 14 Jul 2011 09:35

This is the most unfocussed thread on a terror attack i have seen on BRF. Why are we discussing foreign ladies and political parties? Where are the usual links with details and in depth analysis? I want that BRF back.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Jul 2011 09:36

-deleted
Last edited by abhishek_sharma on 14 Jul 2011 09:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:39

There is a feeling of entitlement that comes with money in India. Address the problem of inequality in a civil sense based on money. Get rid of the dhimmi attitude of the lower rings of society and educate them that they are equally deserving of all the rights enjoyed by others and provide them the means of interacting with the right channels to exercise those rights. Facilitate their initial efforts to make sure that know how to use the system through at least one iteration.

Put up zoned neighborhood self awareness groups which help make forward progress instead of chai biscuit discussion on what's wrong with India. We just need to out-advance the problem of terrorism and technology can bridge the gap between problem and solution.

shiv wrote:
VikramS wrote:shiv:

The problem is that the politicians and the elected representative also act in a manner that once elected they are the kings/britishers. They try to get as much as they can. The social contract which is implied by their election is not worth anything to them.

Educating Indians about what to expect from their government is perhaps the first task to bringing in accountability to the system.


Vikram if you studied in school in India were you taught how the government works? Were you taught about paying taxes and what was done with the taxes? It is still not taught in India. You are taught about Aurangzeb's benevolence though.

It astounds me to find, in my peer group in Bangalore, hundreds of highly intelligent hardworking honest people who pay all their taxes regularly - who do not have a clue what happens to the money. They don't even ask. They don;t even know that there is a system which they can use to find out.

Some of the most minor politicans act like kings because we treat them like kings. We don't know how to do anything different. If a hospital is to be inaugurated, a corporator is called and he is described as "the right honorable Choo Tiyaji "

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby PratikDas » 14 Jul 2011 09:41

Sravan wrote:Correlate biometric fingerprints between purchases. If you are not a repeat customer, ask for formal ID.

Sravan, which law is going to ensure that the honest but lazy store keeper bothers to track all sales of fertilisers OR SIM cards?

Which law is going to ensure that the store keepers are monitored so that the corrupt ones can be detected, apprehended and subsequently prosecuted.

Which group of corrupt politicians is going to pass these laws?

Which organisation is going to ensure that the police enforce these laws and don't turn a blind eye for a fee?

Which organisation is going to ensure that the public prosecutor doesn't botch the case against the criminal for a fee?

You might have the technology to recognise and record individuals and their habits but we have little infrastructure to manage it.
Last edited by PratikDas on 14 Jul 2011 09:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:42

In depth analysis on how people died isn't the issue. It's the in depth analysis on what's stopping us from reacting and preventing the problem is the issue. Clearly figuring out the solution should be higher priority, rather than how to make short term fixes. This approach hasn't worked for 60 years and will fail to do so in the future.

Dilbu wrote:This is the most unfocussed thread on a terror attack i have seen on BRF. Why are we discussing foreign ladies and political parties? Where are the usual links with details and in depth analysis? I want that BRF back.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:45

Credits.

The money generated from the analytics in the system can be recycled to reward citizens for their honest effort in keeping India safe through credits for services, or we can give them access to information which would grow their business.

The idea is to keep information flowing and leveraging the technology that surrounds us. The prime factor that should be maintained is the orthogonal operation of this system and the government. Keep it separate such that this system omits the need of governance to do anything to fix the problem, obviously that's not working. Think of the 1991 debt crisis. Indians are capable of solving problems when they take more responsibility, in comparison to relying on institutions. We are an entrepreneurial people, the system just needs to tweak the right variables to reward such behavior which helps increase the safety of other Indians.

PratikDas wrote:
Sravan wrote:Correlate biometric fingerprints between purchases. If you are not a repeat customer, ask for formal ID.

Sravan, which law is going to ensure that the honest but lazy store keeper bothers to track all sales of fertilisers OR SIM cards?

Which law is going to ensure that the store keepers are monitored so that the corrupt ones can be detected, apprehended and subsequently prosecuted.

Which group of corrupt politicians is going to pass these laws?

Which organisation is going to ensure that the police enforce these laws and don't turn a blind eye for a fee?

Which organisation is going to ensure that the public prosecutor doesn't botch the case against the criminal for a fee?

You might have the technology to recognise and record individuals and their habits but we have little infrastructure to manage it.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:47

In a crowd sourced solution, there is no centralized infrastructure. Each independent node is capable of making it's own decisions and the smart phone is a perfect platform for this. Each node actively contributes and takes value from the system.

The key point is we should stop depending on institutions and take the matter into our hands.

Each node is a single entity, and that entity's interaction with the system will not involve any third party. So there won't be any cultural pressures or outside influence.

Transparency will kill corruption, not more bureaucracy and institutions. What's the guarantee that the civil society representatives won't exploit the framework they are creating to bring down people who don't give them money.

PratikDas wrote:
Sravan wrote:Correlate biometric fingerprints between purchases. If you are not a repeat customer, ask for formal ID.

Sravan, which law is going to ensure that the honest but lazy store keeper bothers to track all sales of fertilisers OR SIM cards?

Which law is going to ensure that the store keepers are monitored so that the corrupt ones can be detected, apprehended and subsequently prosecuted.

Which group of corrupt politicians is going to pass these laws?

Which organisation is going to ensure that the police enforce these laws and don't turn a blind eye for a fee?

Which organisation is going to ensure that the public prosecutor doesn't botch the case against the criminal for a fee?

You might have the technology to recognise and record individuals and their habits but we have little infrastructure to manage it.
Last edited by Sravan on 14 Jul 2011 09:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Jul 2011 09:48

Ammonium nitrate used in Mumbai blasts: Chidambaram

Union home minister P Chidambaram has confirmed the use of ammonium nitrate in the Wednesday terror strike. He said the attacks were well coordinated but refused to confirm at this stage which terror group was behind the attack.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby PratikDas » 14 Jul 2011 09:49

Sravan wrote:Credits.

The money generated from the analytics in the system can be recycled to reward citizens for their honest effort in keeping India safe through credits for services, or we can give them access to information which would grow their business.


And there we come to the crux of the problem. You will offer credits and valuable information. D company will offer no information but 200 times the financial reward. Only one rotten b@$t@rd in every industry is required for the whole system to fail.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby gakakkad » 14 Jul 2011 09:51

@ sravan what are the pattern recognition algorithms in your software?
you planning phase based image ?

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:52

This is not true. D company can pay one individual 200 times the financial reward. Therefore he incurs the favor of one individual. I can pay a million Indians with valuable information, I will effectively saturate D-company.

Not only will I have more information that D-company, D-company will be confused on whom to attack or influence to break the system as it has no leader or centralized decision maker.

PratikDas wrote:
Sravan wrote:Credits.

The money generated from the analytics in the system can be recycled to reward citizens for their honest effort in keeping India safe through credits for services, or we can give them access to information which would grow their business.


And there we come to the crux of the problem. You will offer credits and valuable information. D company will offer no information but 200 times the financial reward. Only one rotten b@$t@rd in every industry is required for the whole system to fail.
Last edited by Sravan on 14 Jul 2011 09:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:54

gakakkad wrote:@ sravan what are the pattern recognition algorithms in your software?
you planning phase based image ?


It is a combination of geofilters and extrapolation of ratio's from a person's body and distance between features on their face. I also incorporate feature extrapolation and GPS coordinates.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby gakakkad » 14 Jul 2011 10:01

one of the reason why these blasts were not detected is because the exact details and specifics of location were decided at the last minute. It is perfectly conceivable that isi top leadership may not have been aware about the specific details of the blast. The less people know the better. They must have tried to attack during the cwg and cricket world cup. But they failed. Only way to beat the algorithms is to not use technology. ISI may merely be giving the green signal. Or maybe not even that. Tha patrons in India may have an independent hand in managing local operations. A small task force may finalise the specifics. It is very easy to get NH4NO3 and make an IED out of this and put in on public places. What we need is human intelligence in simi. We need to monitor all mosques. The Gujarati community seems to be a target because they are the richest. Areas of high gujarati population should be heavily infiltrated with cctv. I am a native of ahmedabad. I can easily point out the areas from which the terrorist sympathisers here live. Good humint will not be difficult if one tries to infiltrate.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby gakakkad » 14 Jul 2011 10:02

Sravan wrote:
gakakkad wrote:@ sravan what are the pattern recognition algorithms in your software?
you planning phase based image ?


It is a combination of geofilters and extrapolation of ratio's from a person's body and distance between features on their face. I also incorporate feature extrapolation and GPS coordinates.

you working with a company or free lancing?

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby PratikDas » 14 Jul 2011 10:04

Sravan wrote:This is not true. D company can pay one individual 200 times the financial reward. Therefore he incurs the favor of one individual. I can pay a million Indians with valuable information, I will effectively saturate D-company.

Not only will I have more information that D-company, D-company will be confused on whom to attack or influence to break the system as it has no leader or centralized decision maker.


Sravan, I'm sorry, you cannot pay people to be patriotic. It is common knowledge that people can be paid to be unpatriotic and dogma can be fed to the ignorant to make them want to sacrifice their lives.

Fear is a good demotivator, but even the fear of Guantanamo keeps the only rational at bay. The dogma-fed irrational will still be ready to strap bombs to his chest and head for his honeymoon.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 10:04

Yes, even if the perpetrators don't use technology, we can isolate that group of people through order of elimination. We will know which Indians fall into the sample to question for leads. Use the people who were around the area at the time to get further details and crowd source the story together using twitter. The faster we go through the iterations of investigations, the faster we can triangulate on the guilty if the evidence is still fresh. If we omit the police and government from this process and do this through an independent entity leverage social media, that's even better.

gakakkad wrote:one of the reason why these blasts were not detected is because the exact details and specifics of location were decided at the last minute. It is perfectly conceivable that isi top leadership may not have been aware about the specific details of the blast. The less people know the better. They must have tried to attack during the cwg and cricket world cup. But they failed. Only way to beat the algorithms is to not use technology. ISI may merely be giving the green signal. Or maybe not even that. Tha patrons in India may have an independent hand in managing local operations. A small task force may finalise the specifics. It is very easy to get NH4NO3 and make an IED out of this and put in on public places. What we need is human intelligence in simi. We need to monitor all mosques. The Gujarati community seems to be a target because they are the richest. Areas of high gujarati population should be heavily infiltrated with cctv. I am a native of ahmedabad. I can easily point out the areas from which the terrorist sympathisers here live. Good humint will not be difficult if one tries to infiltrate.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Narad » 14 Jul 2011 10:06

One terror attack in India == one core commander knocked off in porkistan.

Serial Blasts in India == one core commander knocked off in porkistan + sons/daughters of fauji afsars knocked off in US/UK.

Simple arithmetic solution for preventing such recurring attacks. Hit where it would hurt the most.
Last edited by Narad on 14 Jul 2011 10:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Sravan » 14 Jul 2011 10:08

When you are anonymous and protected by a system that doesn't care who you are and what you do, you are definitely protected. That's the entire mechanics behind wikileaks.

Tell me, how many hours do you spend researching what's going on during these attacks. What if your time spending researching that could be spend crowd sourcing information together from social media using technology and recycling in a nodal environment until we get the complete picture.

Let me repeat... Transparency creates the best society. Satyameva jayate.

Why shouldn't I be rewarded to be patriotic, what's wrong with making a system that benefits those who are patriotic and punishes those who hurt India?

PratikDas wrote:
Sravan wrote:This is not true. D company can pay one individual 200 times the financial reward. Therefore he incurs the favor of one individual. I can pay a million Indians with valuable information, I will effectively saturate D-company.

Not only will I have more information that D-company, D-company will be confused on whom to attack or influence to break the system as it has no leader or centralized decision maker.


Sravan, I'm sorry, you cannot pay people to be patriotic. It is common knowledge that people can be paid to be unpatriotic and dogma can be fed to the ignorant to make them want to sacrifice their lives.

Fear is a good demotivator, but even the fear of Guantanamo keeps the only rational at bay. The dogma-fed irrational will still be ready to strap bombs to his chest and head for his honeymoon.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby Dilbu » 14 Jul 2011 10:08

There should be a situation like in Gaza where Palstinian people themselves were asking their terrorists to stop firing on Israel because they knew the response will be equally indiscriminate. Collective punishment is not gandhigiri but it is effective.

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Jul 2011 10:09

Photos of attacks: here and here

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby ramana » 14 Jul 2011 10:10

One key step is for Ministry of Chemicals and Fertilisers to require the mixing of Ammonium sulphate or other hygroscopic material to Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer.

However the MHA will neither suggest nor think that. And even if they do the MC&F will come up with 1000 reasons why its dumb to do that. And the factory inspectors will take bribes to allow regular NH4NO3 to be made!

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby PratikDas » 14 Jul 2011 10:11

Sravan wrote:Why shouldn't I be rewarded to be patriotic, what's wrong with making a system that benefits those who are patriotic and punishes those who hurt India?

Haven't you heard of a person leaving one job for another one that pays more?

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Re: Serial Blasts in Mumbai

Postby ramana » 14 Jul 2011 10:12

X-posted

Atri wrote:Few Possibilities but all of them are interconnected..

Dawood IBrahim (DI) network trying to settle the crackdown after J.Dey murder. It is possible that DI mafia house engineered the murder of Jyotirmay Dey through the hands of Chhota Rajan. As a result, Mumbai police has made the lives of operatives of Chhota Rajan in Mumbai difficult. Dawood is intricately linked with many political parties of Maharashtra and is friend of a many "pawarful" people.. many other political leaders of various parties (including BT), bollywood producers are in nexus with DI. One has to read Suketu Mehta's book "maximum city" to understand this nexus which developed in western India after death of Haji Mastan.

DI on the other hand is very closely connected to Lashkar-e-toiba (LET) and ISI and Pakistan army. Usually whenever Pakistani army and ISI wishes to carry out terror strike in India they do it via the LET-DI network. We saw this in 1993 (shown beautifully in the movie Black Friday) and all the way till 26/11 in every single attack that happened in Western India (Mumbai is prominent here). So the interests of DI, ISI and hence Pakistani army are linked. None of them will act against each other. There are many leaders in Maharashtra (MH) and rest of Western India who will wish that DI never comes to India because if he comes and starts singing, all the big names will come out. Hence, this "laachaari" of certain powerful political houses gives the people like DI a chance and capablity to act as a terror-channel for ISI against India.

In past few months, the congress government in centre is in trouble due to Ramdev Baba, Anna Hazare, S.Swamy and others who are after them on issues of foreign black money and corruption. So, even central government (meaning Sonia Gandhi clan) will not mind a distraction of Indian mind. A small event which will take the attention away from black money and corruption is something which Congress will definitely wish for. Now, I am not saying GOI knew about this as that will be very big allegation and I have no proof and hence I am not making that allegation on this public forum. But, this event happening now is convenient for Congress as far as black money issue is concerned, this is for sure.

This is also convenient for Pakistani army. Pakistan is in state of civil war where Pakistani Punjab keeps Sindh, Baluchistan and NWFP province together by force and American Money. For Pakistan to stay as "one" country, they have to keep fooling their people that "Hindus" will bring "islam" in danger, if Pakistani army (which is infact Punjabi army) becomes weak.

India was about to grant the status of "most favoured nation" to Pakistan in terms of trade and commerce. If this happens, this will empower the current democratic (but corrupt) government in Pakistan and reduce the importance of army there. Pakistani army, which takes up more than 80% of Pakistan's budget and own most of the land, industry and resources, will not allow this to happen.

So you see, If I think like a cynic, I feel that this event was "convenient" for Pakistani army and to certain extent current ruling party in India. DI also wanted to make his presence felt in the Gujarati gold traders of Jhaveri Bazar that he is still alive and powerful so that his extraction of wealth from bollywood and Indian traders continue. So this was convenient to Dawood as well. Now that Chhota Rajan is almost out of game in Mumbai. This "event" was not "big enough" (like 26/11) that will force India to start war with Pakistan. At the most what will happen is that India will stop the peace talks for few months and will not grant the MFN status of Pakistan as of now.

After few months, people will forget, the "aman ki asha" waala "Ch*tiyas" will start singing love-songs again and lighting candles at gateway of India. And all will be well. Looking at the scale of this particular event, it is unlikely that there was direct involvement of ISI-Pak army complex in carrying out this attack. They are far more professional. Thus one was most probably carried out by local sleeper cells of LET, IM (Indian Mujahideen) and HuJI (Harkat ul Jihad Islami something) on their own with local logistical cover from Dawood and blessings from the political masters across the borders.

To tell the gist, this huge web of vested interests of small section of traders, industrialists, politicians and bureaucrats which prevents India and her army to respond to such attacks. And this network operates on international level on both side of border, especially in Islamic countries (remember sharjah, dubai in 1980s). As long as this tendency and this network remains operative, common people from India (and also Pakistan) will continue to suffer. Indians are slightly more fortunate due to the fact that Indian Dhaarmik religions are tolerant and India is democracy with Judiciary still respectable. Pakistani common man has no hope since the very existence of Pakistan is defined and maintained by "Allah, Army and America".


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