The Red Menace

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 13 Jul 2011 13:11

The SC judgement relating to SPOs is problematic on several counts-

1. There is unanimity now that the judges' preamble, rhetorical narrative and ideological framing in the beginning of the judgement through several statements, is deeply troubling. If, as the writer of the Hindu article claims, this ideological narrative has nothing to do with the legal nitty-gritties of the case which needs to be evaluated separately - then it does call into question the intelligence of those who delivered this judgement. Why put in a preamble and talk about a root cause for a problem, if that has nothing to do with the later arguments used in the judgement? It also certainly implies that there is greater likelihood of other such monumental lapses of logic in the rest of the judgement.

2. The SC order has nothing whatsoever to do with the success or otherwise of Chattisgarh's CI operations, nor does the judgement have anything to do with lack of education, training, and equipment to the SPOs. The latter is obvious because if indeed the lack of these was the root of the issue - it would be entirely illogical to ban SPOs as opposed to ensuring that these requirements are met. Again, the judgement seems to suffer from a lack of clarity on this count, given that this elementary point does not come across clearly and there is scope for misinterpretation.

3. The judges seem to have primarily based their judgement on the violation of human rights in employing citizens in life-threatening operations where they may not be adequately prepared or cognizant of the dangers. This, to my mind, is an appropriate debate to have and the judges have done well to highlight this issue. At the same time, while the debate is healthy - the outcome as to what human rights issues are involved and the degree of violation of these rights is by no means settled. There could also be a strong case for arguing that the judges' position of uneducated tribals not being able to decide on their own self-defence constitutes a serious violation of their human right to self-defence. The judgement is to be commended if nothing else but for nudging the debate in the right direction.

4. Finally, even if human liberties that we take for granted in good times have been called into question through SJ - the issue then is would it not be OK to place limits on certain liberties when there is a larger and more serious threat to the existence of liberalism, and if battling the larger threat involves certain restrictions on smaller liberties? Also, who takes the call on this ? - it is obviously the legislature that needs to take a call, and not the judiciary.

The US went through exactly a similar debate in regard to the Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay etc....Each one of these involved surrendering on lower level liberties (such as right to privacy) in order to fight a larger threat to liberty (terrorism). The Patriot Act was a legislative act signed by the US Congress. Some parts of the act were challenged and declared unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court - whereupon those parts were modified and the bill was finally passed.

The question then is, why should not the Chattisgarh or Union legislature pass a new law based on what they feel is required to fight the scourge of Naxalism? That would be the correct way to proceed - assuming everyone is convinced that the larger threat of Naxalism does involve some compromises on individual liberties. The Supreme Court needs to identify very specifcally the parts that it does not agree with - but banning the concept of SPOs in a war situation is too broad a brush to use.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 13 Jul 2011 14:09

Arjun wrote:The question then is, why should not the Chattisgarh or Union legislature pass a new law based on what they feel is required to fight the scourge of Naxalism

Its not laws that C'garh needs - they already have "special laws" to deal with insurgency...the govt needs to knuckle down to fight the insurgency in a professional, competent manner - rather than trying to play it cheap (and thereby incompetent) and then playing political games...

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 13 Jul 2011 15:00

So what stops the CG govt from hiring a marketing con-sultan(t) and rebranding/re-positioning the SPOs as the new VDCs. The Lawd knows ordinary people in the CG interior know all the defence and security they can get once they or their kin somewhere have been branded govt agents/SPOs/informers whatever by the maoist machine. No?

As for getting professional/competent security forces to fight the good fight, I couldn't agree more. However, insurgencies get down and dirty. Take Punjab where the professional, competent Punjab police did some ~~unspeakable~~ unprofessional things, amoral of the law, to break the back of a well-funded insurgency that had no moral qualms in murdering unarmed people by the score. The human rights/NGO bleeding fart brigade which was nowhere at the scene when the mayhem by the terrorist insurgency was at its worst did return to try to harass security people later on with wanton rights-abuse allegations though. A well-funded and organized NGO movement who knows where their money comes from abroad can do quite some damage that way. No wonder the army refuses to be deployed sans AFSPA protection.

Its all very well to sit and pontificate here in air-conditioned homes or offices about how the insurgency 'should' be fought in the CG interior. The fact that security forces have lost men in their 10s repeatedly in the area speaks of their lack of on-ground eyes-and-ears as compared to the maoists and of the deep hooks within the administrative machinery the maoists must have to get such intel on security movements like this.

Those wanting to take the high road on the insurgency essentially are OK with surrendering yet another state and its millions of innocents to the maoist yoke for years to come, it would seem.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Jul 2011 15:17

Again the logic is that somehow a 15 year schooling makes someone more professional and have better judgement. But in reality, we see more and more intellectual degradation as one spends more time in formal education.

If SC logic is correct, we should have the most professional government, no corruption and highest productivity in govt functions as the minimum age for almost all of the govt jobs (except low grade punes etc).

And even more education results in leftist intellectuals who are proficient at making historical blunders.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 13 Jul 2011 15:43

RamaY wrote:And even more education results in leftist intellectuals who are proficient at making historical blunders

Wow, so lets have illiterates manning all public posts - from the constable to the Secretary...

Hari Seldon wrote:However, insurgencies get down and dirty. Take Punjab where the professional, competent Punjab police did some unspeakable unprofessional things, amoral of the law, to break the back of a well-funded insurgency that had no moral qualms in murdering unarmed people by the score

The point isnt about the methodology adopted by the police at all...It is about the absence of a professional police force and their attempted "gap filling" by a vigilante militia...Forget the constitutional tenets (that SC has referred to), professional securitymen have described the strategy as counterproductive...

there is a big difference between VDCs, low-level intel networks and frontline combat units - these are not fuzzy at all - they are maintained in multiple insurgencies across India, including against naxals...If the C'garh govt cant make those distinctions, then it is basically running an incompetent security apparatus...

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 13 Jul 2011 15:59

The government should be allowed to use SPOs as stop-gap arrangement UNTIL an adequately sized regular CI team is setup and put into operation for each village / district.

Say some tribals from a remote village approach the government for help against rampaging and marauding Naxals...The government responds and says we are in the process of setting up our own team, but it would take another year or two for that to be setup in your particular precints. The tribals then ask - OK, but the situation is desparate - how can you help us till then? Can you provide us some firearms and train us on self-defence ?

It would be a bigger violation of human rights if the government has to turn down this request and say sorry - the wise Supreme Court of this land would rather that you died like a dog at the hands of Naxals than allow us to train you.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 13 Jul 2011 17:02

Arjun wrote:Can you provide us some firearms and train us on self-defence ?

That was the intention behind VDCs..There are thousands of them all over - J&K, AP...But they are not used for patrolling, combat ops, road blocs and other professional policing jobs...The SC order does not affect those VDCs..

About "time" - C'garh has been facing high level naxal militancy for a decade now - if they still cant get their act together, there is a problem of either competence or poltiical will, or maybe both...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Jul 2011 20:02

[quote="somnath]

About "time" - C'garh has been facing high level naxal militancy for a decade now - if they still cant get their act together, there is a problem of either competence or poltiical will, or maybe both...

[/quote][/quote]

Cannot disagree more with this statement which has probably arisen out of Ideological Bias.

Naxalism does not only affect Chattisgarh but has affected AP, WB, Orissa, Bihar and J'hand. and has significantly gone up since 2004, so to to blame C'garh Government and leaving the Central Government, the AP Govt where Naxalism has existed for 30+ years is riduclous. That way speaking Terrorism in J&K, Ulfa have been tackled in an even more incompetent way. All these government have not had thier security agencies thwarted by repeated Supreme Court orders and injunctions too boot.

Further going by logic of the existence of Underworld for 40 plus yearsand Bomb blasts in Mumbai, growth of Naxalism and terrorimsm in the country it would seem that there is a problem of either competence or poltiical will, or maybe both... in the Ruling dispensation at Delhi and not anywhere else.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 13 Jul 2011 20:07

SPOs in CG have never been used for professional policing, that is still handled by the more educated CG police. VDCs in Kashmir were setup to deal with gangs of 5-10 militants, their success in defending themselves however, was low and they were more of Intel assets. Now in CG you dont have attacks by 5-10 militants it is generally in the 100s as seen, what chance does VDC have against such a swarm? Now most of us agree that these 100s never move as a unit or stay in one place, they assemble before the attack and disperse once it is over. Real chance of avoiding big attacks or massacres would then be when the small groups are moving towards a rallying point or coming back from it or when they are resting. Now SPOs have this unique ability to spot movements in their area and hence can take action to neutralise these small groups of naxals. Thus they prevent large scale massacre of their villages by eliminating the small groups and also prevent the big ambushes.

Now this has been very conveniently spun by Naxal lovers. If a naxals half as educated as the police can be so effective why cant the SPOs made of similar attributes and possessing similar education be used for combating them ? I hope the supreme court/or the spinners can answer this. SPOs should not be used for regular policing but they are as useful as the Mukti bahinis/2-4 man CIA spec op teams in AFG. Now there might be stray incidents where SPOs might do some dispute settlement and in the bargain hurt someone. This needs to be prevented and stricter enforcement as done with Ikhwaan in J&K will solve it. Rather than turning the SPO into a better force the supreme court has messed it up totally with this verdict.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 13 Jul 2011 20:55

The swarm of 1000 does not move in a swarm of 1000. They dissolve into 10-20 numbers and combine into 1000 at predetermined times and locations. That is how usually insurgency warfare by the good red book says.

Now these 10-20 go on terrorising villagers for food/shelter etc. The 5-10 SPOs/VDCs are for repelling these numbers and for intelligence.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 13 Jul 2011 21:16

Ravi_ku ji the 5-10 dalam size move from hideout to hideout in forests and attacks on villagers if precedent is to go by, is in the size of 50-60 naxals. The SPOs should be used in limited CT offensives in the 10-15Km periphery, that will preempt attacks on villages and large scale killings of villagers after branding them police informers. So SPOs are needed for offensive and defensive purposes and in the offensive ops should not be used beyond 15 KMs of their village

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 13 Jul 2011 21:48

suryag wrote:Ravi_ku ji the 5-10 dalam size move from hideout to hideout in forests and attacks on villagers if precedent is to go by, is in the size of 50-60 naxals. The SPOs should be used in limited CT offensives in the 10-15Km periphery, that will preempt attacks on villages and large scale killings of villagers after branding them police informers. So SPOs are needed for offensive and defensive purposes and in the offensive ops should not be used beyond 15 KMs of their village

Those 50-60 cannot be in one group moving around. They will need to have lug that much amount of food along with them. 50-60 cannot "live off the land" in a mobile fashion.

5-20 can.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 13 Jul 2011 21:52

I am not saying 50-60 move around in a single group, i am saying that when these naxals attack villages they do so in 50-60 size contingents after that they disperse and live in 5-10 size groups.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Jul 2011 06:32

Aditya_V wrote:Cannot disagree more with this statement which has probably arisen out of Ideological Bias.

Naxalism does not only affect Chattisgarh but has affected AP, WB, Orissa, Bihar and J'hand. and has significantly gone up since 2004, so to to blame C'garh Government and leaving the Central Government, the AP Govt where Naxalism has existed for 30+ years is riduclous. That way speaking Terrorism in J&K, Ulfa have been tackled in an even more incompetent way. All these government have not had thier security agencies thwarted by repeated Supreme Court orders and injunctions too boot.

Its not an ideological point...No state has fought naxalism (or any other insurgency) with such incompetence, with the exception of Bihar (towards the end of Laloo's tenure), and maybe Jharkhand...

Results speak for themselves...The AP police has the record for the maximum number of "hits" against the top naxal leadership, besides decimating them from the state itself (a fact acknowledged by Ganapathi himself)...

Check the SF casualty numbers, year on year, published by SATP - not just in SF-to-insurgent ratios, but even in absolute numbers, C'garh keeps coming out at/towards the bottom of the heap consistently....

suryag wrote:If a naxals half as educated as the police can be so effective why cant the SPOs made of similar attributes and possessing similar education be used for combating them ? I hope the supreme court/or the spinners can answer this. SPOs should not be used for regular policing but they are as useful as the Mukti bahinis/2-4 man CIA spec op teams in AFG

Wow...Many petty thieves are quite "effective", many highway robbers as well - maybe we should be recruiting beat and highway policemen with the same educational/social attributes? We had RamaY commenting earlier how more education actually creates more "leftists" - basically UPSC should be revising its recruitment standards to a different level!

Using the local populace for intel, ex-militants embedded within professional combat units for intel and logistics - these are very different from creating a force of 5 or 10k, and deploy them as an anti-insurgency force...Its not too fine a nuance, its something that most state govts have grasped while combating insurgencies, wonder what's so "special" about C'garh..

The C'garh govt has some spectacular achievements to its credit on the social sector - its PDS is acknowledged to be the best..Its time it applied the same talent and genius to fighting the battle in a manner where we have a chance of winning - whatever they have done for the last 10 years, its the other side that seems to be "winning"...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Jul 2011 06:50

somnath,

You forget the years and years when naxalism is on the rise in AP. naxals started out in AP from 1940s and has its origins in the struggle against nizam. Note all the top leaders of naxals, that they are mostly telugus is not a coincidence. Dont forget naxals almost killed a chief minister, CBN in tirumala.

Infact naxals have a much much organized overground network in AP. note the leaders of telangana agitation right now. Except those who are directly in TRS, all of them are from naxal background. Gadar, Kodamram etc etc. Naxals in AP have NOT been eliminated, they have morphed. You think that greyhounds was the only attempt to control naxals by AP??

Chattisgarh has just started out. To compare a state which has been bleeding since 70 years and got under control recently to a state which has not yet found its feet is intellectual dishonesty.

I am not even sure as of today whether AP has got it under control, or just the silence before the storm. Comparision of AP's in 70s 80s to Cgarh's today might be very surprising and who knows C'garh is suffering today exclusively because the powers that be decided it is of non-congress govt (as I theorized with figures, hinting at my original avatar) .

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Jul 2011 07:07

Virupaksha wrote:You forget the years and years when naxalism is on the rise in AP. naxals started out in AP from 1940s and has its origins in the struggle against nizam. Note all the top leaders of naxals, that they are mostly telugus is not a coincidence. Dont forget naxals almost killed a chief minister, CBN in tirumala

While naxalism has a long history in AP, its nature and virulence has changed over the years...There was the Tebhaga/Telengana movements - but they were crushed by the '60s..The virulent, armed movement of the current genre is perhaps a late '90s/early '00s vintage...AP suffered initially, but at least out its act together, and cutting across party lines...similarly, WB resolved its naxal problem in the '70s, till it took a bit of a reborth again recetly...

Greyhounds are not the lynchpin of AP's anti-naxal strategy, though they are the tip of the spear.The lynchpin is building up of police capacities (still inadequate maybe, but substantial incrases) in the vulnerable areas, setting in place a high quality intel network, and of course, the Greyhounds force...And it adopted all means, fair and foul..The famous "talks" with the naxals by YSR, which somehow invariably "failed" followed by an extensive targeted operation taking out alot of the leadership - its still denounced as "perfidy" by the Maoists...

Virupaksha wrote:Infact naxals have a much much organized overground network in AP. note the leaders of telangana agitation right now. Except those who are directly in TRS, all of them are from naxal background. Gadar, Kodamram etc etc. Naxals in AP have NOT been eliminated, they have morphed

Brilliant - the final objective should always be to bring the underground overground - these guys are not Pakis, they are Indians...That way, they need to deal with actual public opinion and answer questions (of the civil society, if not the electorate)...

Virupaksha wrote:Chattisgarh has just started out. To compare a state which has been bleeding since 70 years and got under control recently to a state which has not yet found its feet is intellectual dishonesty

First, not sure what is meant by "starting out"...It did not get created out of thin air..And it started off as one of the best endowed states in terms of both fiscal as well as natural resources (the former because very little of MP's debt got passed on to C'garh)...Second, its been a decade..Third, when there are experiential learnings available, they dont have to start from the alphabet...

For 7-8 years, the only strategy seems to be, well a lack of "strategy"! Even KPS Gill, brought in as an advisor, left disillusioned with the attitude of the govt...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 14 Jul 2011 08:21

somnath wrote:Wow...Many petty thieves are quite "effective", many highway robbers as well - maybe we should be recruiting beat and highway policemen with the same educational/social attributes? We had RamaY commenting earlier how more education actually creates more "leftists" - basically UPSC should be revising its recruitment standards to a different level!

You are selectively quoting what i wrote. The next sentence after the quoted part needs to be read too. I wrote

suryag wrote:... If a naxals half as educated as the police can be so effective why cant the SPOs made of similar attributes and possessing similar education be used for combating them ? I hope the supreme court/or the spinners can answer this. SPOs should not be used for regular policing but they are as useful as the Mukti bahinis/2-4 man CIA spec op teams in AFG. Now there might be stray incidents where SPOs might do some dispute settlement and in the bargain hurt someone. This needs to be prevented and stricter enforcement as done with Ikhwaan in J&K will solve it. Rather than turning the SPO into a better force the supreme court has messed it up totally with this verdict.

SPOs need to be used in a limited way, this doesnt mean they need to be used as part of VDCs they can be used in a limited offensive manner in probably 10-15 kms of their residence. In fact the Ikhwans were used as extensively as the SPOs

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 14 Jul 2011 14:03

Virupaksha wrote: naxals started out in AP from 1940s and has its origins in the struggle against nizam. Note all the top leaders of naxals, that they are mostly telugus is not a coincidence.

"Naxal" origin is Naxalbari village in Bengal. It is a 1960s phenomenon. Couldn't have been Maoists either in 1940s era AP.

Probably the name of the grouping was different. Some research needed here. Were ultra-left insurgents active so long ago?

Virupaksha wrote: Infact naxals have a much much organized overground network in AP. note the leaders of telangana agitation right now. Except those who are directly in TRS, all of them are from naxal background. Gadar, Kodamram etc etc. Naxals in AP have NOT been eliminated, they have morphed.

"much organized" is an understatement. It was from a high level cop in MHA (coincidentally a Telugu gentleman), that I learnt some essentials about the Naxal/Maoist org structure and deployment pattern. Its almost like Army. The top leadership is rotated among regions, there is a compensation structure, traning plans well defined and conducted, well identified pools/areas to replenish attritions, funding, special care for nutrition/health and well being on top brass.

Their leadership structure is the key. Eliminate layer 1 & 2 they'll get disoriented soon. The rest will follow.

However, while the leadership structure appears as a set of well known individuals to outside (media, general public etc.), there are support structures outside the Naxal org structure that provide intellectual inputs, assist with larger aspects of the movement.

So, even if by magic, the entire rank and files of current Naxalite were to get KIA overnight ; there remains enough scaffoldings outside to build the movement over in few years.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 14 Jul 2011 14:33

SRoy wrote: "Naxal" origin is Naxalbari village in Bengal. It is a 1960s phenomenon. Couldn't have been Maoists either in 1940s era AP. Probably the name of the grouping was different. Some research needed here. Were ultra-left insurgents active so long ago?

Call it what you like, the idea of a People's War has been around from 1917 in reality and from Marx and Engels' Communist Manifesto from the mid-1800s. Just because we (in India) have seen an elected version of the People's War in the form of (first) CPI and then CPM, and then CPI(ML), does nt mean that other forms of People's War did nt exist till the word Naxals/Maoists got appellated to LWE (the conventional terminology of MHA) of today.

SCM's whine over Chhattisgarh is clearly and openly a bias that it is ruled by a BJP government. Bugger has nothing to say about the idiocy in Jangal Mahal or in Saranda or the Dandakaranya region or elsewhere. In fact, MHA's list of 83 seriously affected districts includes 18 from Jharkhand, 16 from Andhra Pradesh, 15 from Bihar, 15 from Orissa, 9 from Chhattisgarh, 3 from Maharashtra, 3 from UP, 3 from West Bengal and 1 from MP.
http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/LWE-aftdDist-131210.pdf
Obviously, our friend has nothing to say about these affected districts, his pet peeves all start and end with Chhattisgarh. Our friend also has nothing to say about the thoughtlessness with which MHA fights LWE, all because of lobbying interests of Congress MPs. http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/20 ... fect-mess/
No wonder he is an INC/Leftist spoon of the worst kind. Intellectual honesty, thy name is SCM.

There is this popular statistic that some folks will quote wherein most casualties have been in Chhattisgarh. Obviously, the use of this casualty is a lie that honest oiseaules perpetuate. When will there be casualties? When X and Y clash and fight tooth and nail. When the State administration sits and sleeps as is common in much of tackling LWE, well, there wont be much casualties to even talk with. The Maoists walk scot-free and they dont have to shoot anyone to run riot. See, Chhattisgarh police are losers because they fight and die, instead they should sit on their derrieres and let the casualty figures go down and all can lie low in super comprehension mode.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 14 Jul 2011 15:02

There is another reason for why SCM is pissed off with Chhattisgarh Government. After all, civil society lover-boy Binayak Sen was convicted by this govt, no?! Mutual back-scratching of the civil society lovers, what else could it be?

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 14 Jul 2011 15:04

Stan_Savljevic wrote:There is another reason for why SCM is pissed off with Chhattisgarh Government. After all, civil society lover-boy Binayak Sen was convicted by this govt, no?! Mutual back-scratching of the civil society lovers, what else could it be?

Yep, they are the scaffolding that will rebuild the movement many times over even if foot soldiers are nuked today.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Jul 2011 16:19

I have just had the pleasure of spending more time reading through the actual text of the court judgement on Salwa Judum. I have to say that it turned out to be far, far worse than the initial impression formed. For anybody with right-wing liberal instincts - this document is so completely full of bilge that it is a classic in a perverse kind of way !!

There are 18 pages of a preamble - where the judges get to pontificate on the depredations of the modern liberalized economy - that literally drips with Marxist sentiment. This is followed by the section that finally comes to the issue at hand, and all kinds of calisthenics seem to have been employed in order to prove that usage of SPOs by Chattisgarh is violative of Articles 14 and 21 of the Constitution. Now that I have a good sense of the kind of logic on display throughout the judgement, I am deeply suspicious of there being any actual semblance of rationality in some of these contrived explanations.

I can post the details of the logical fallacies that I see, but will take up too much of my time. Would ideally love to discuss further with anyone here who has gone through the judgement and has a legal / constitutional bent of mind. I am specifically interested in discussing the logic used to conclude that Articles 14 and 21 of the Constitution have been violated.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Jul 2011 16:48

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Our friend also has nothing to say about the thoughtlessness with which MHA fights LWE, all because of lobbying interests of Congress MPs. http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/20 ... fect-mess/

Hmm, seems that your deep insights into the workings of South Block dont extend just across the street on Raisina Hill to North Block!

Or is it that you are so enamoured of your colourful (undoubtedly genetically endowed) lexicon that you dont read the googled blogs you post? Even if someone does not know about the Central programme for Naxal districts (under various acronyms over the years), that blog piece has enough pointers - basically, any district that is declared "naxal affected" gets a large chunk of central money...Forget MPs, it is widely known (and written about), that state governmetns lobby with the Centre to get districts declared as such, as this funding is divorced from the normal Central transfers under Finance Commission guidelines..

Of the 83 districts currently identified, all but 19 districts (22 if one included WB) are in non-UPA/INC ruled states...So I guess the govt has a deep conspiracy to starve INC-ruled states of special funding!

If anyone's been following the news lately, another 20 districts are going to be included shortly - including some mroe in Bihar, some more in Jharkhand, Orissa and a few more...

So much easier if there are convenient "targets" - the complexities are avoided!

Stan_Savljevic wrote:After all, civil society lover-boy Binayak Sen was convicted by this govt, no?!

Binayak Sen, indeed..He was in custody for what, 2 years? Or 3? So important was he to the naxal setup, and so incredibly clever that he perhaps directed the ever-increasing naxal attacks from the C'garh prison!

Stan_Savljevic wrote:When will there be casualties? When X and Y clash and fight tooth and nail. When the State administration sits and sleeps as is common in much of tackling LWE, well, there wont be much casualties to even talk with

Of course, we have a new paradigm for measuring CI success now...More the SF casualties, it reflects that the SF is "giving fight"...Given the trends in J&K, the conclusion therefore is that the Army/police/CRPF is giving less and less fight as the years go by!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Jul 2011 16:53

Why do we have to tolerate this chap on BRF?

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 14 Jul 2011 18:08

Gone are the days when Judges used to accord primacy to delivering justice and upholding the rule of Law. Usually judgements would be concerned more with facts and evidence presented, the points of law in question, the precedence and analysis of ratio decedendi and if at all there would be a comment outside of these things it would be with reference to a particular context of the case.

It seems that Hon. Judges today have been bitten by the populist bug and write "popular" judgements. This particular one falls in that category. It is not a recent fad though. The only thing is the frequency of Hon Judges resorting to such dialectical analysis and social commentary has increased.

In the past, one of the most important culprits of such tendency is the so called eminent jurist, V R Krishna Iyer. He could never write in simple English. His trademark was to resort to polemic lectures and ideologically biased arguments to come up with some of the most convoluted judgements.

The present judgement in this case definitely falls under his genre of judgements. VR Krishna Iyer is still a favourite judge for the Left. Do the Hon. Judges of this case want to be counted as one of the "popular and progressive" judges like him? That probably explains the social polemic that passes off as legal reasoning. And also garner some more fan boys for them in the media and even here in this forum!

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 14 Jul 2011 18:57

Sanku wrote:Why do we have to tolerate this chap on BRF?

Sanku ji , There is a saying that "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".By allowing such persons to post on BRF we get valuable information on what India's enemies are thinking and what are their methods.By enemy I mean leftist/communist/pseudosecular/islamist/ej.

That is why it is important that such people continue to post.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Jul 2011 19:18

[quote="somnath]Of the 83 districts currently identified, all but 19 districts (22 if one included WB) are in non-UPA/INC ruled states...So I guess the govt has a deep conspiracy to starve INC-ruled states of special funding!

If anyone's been following the news lately, another 20 districts are going to be included shortly - including some mroe in Bihar, some more in Jharkhand, Orissa and a few more...

So much easier if there are convenient "targets" - the complexities are avoided!

Of course, we have a new paradigm for measuring CI success now...More the SF casualties, it reflects that the SF is "giving fight"...Given the trends in J&K, the conclusion therefore is that the Army/police/CRPF is giving less and less fight as the years go by!

[/quote][/quote]

We can see someone Polticising Maoist Violence, if something is a multistate problem, then the blame also falls in the Central GOvt and incompetence of the MHA is getting all the states together. Offcourse, Centre has no role in all this but only hass twiddle its thumbs and blame opposition since it lost the elections in these states . This especially important since the main excuse Mining and Mining blocks in many of these areas are handled by the Centre.

Further, if you look at districts that our insurgency affected, many would be UPA Central and state rule and yet not resolved, so that would mean UPA incompetence?

How many districts are affected by the Russian and Dawood Mafia, thats right these districts would also come under UPA Central and STate rule, again shows lack of will fighting these.

WHo rules the City with the Highest Rape incidents in the Country, thats right again UPA at CENtre and State.

Offcourse these things will never be noticed.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Jul 2011 21:42

Aditya_V wrote:We can see someone Polticising Maoist Violence, if something is a multistate problem, then the blame also falls in the Central GOvt and incompetence of the MHA is getting all the states together. Offcourse, Centre has no role in all this but only hass twiddle its thumbs and blame opposition since it lost the elections in these states

Of course not, its not a partisan issue - I was only responding to a post above that insinuated as such (ham handed MHA response driven by INC MP lobbying et al)...

The Centre has a role - it gets trickier as law and order is a state subject, while the challenge cuts across multiple states...But there is indeed no substitute for hardcore policing, and beefing up of capacities there...

This especially important since the main excuse Mining and Mining blocks in many of these areas are handled by the Centre.

Mining blocs DO NOT fall under the Centre's jurisdiction - all mining blocs (barring for offshore oil) are state govt "property"...Again, while a broad legislation on regulation of the sector is pending (ccriminally so), the specific policies relating to mining and compensation for that is in the state domain...

BTW, I see that a post (from Stan) has been deleted - it had some interesting insights - Naveen Patnaik is a "tribal", Arjun Munda is a tribal "who might support UPA in the future" ....Interesting non-partisan insights into the problem...

People with insights into South Block also seem to have deep insights into physical and political genealogies!

darshhan wrote:There is a saying that "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".By allowing such persons to post on BRF we get valuable information on what India's enemies are thinking and what are their methods.By enemy I mean leftist/communist/pseudosecular/islamist/ej

Interesting...So I guess these guys are "enemies" too..

Ajai Sahni
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/ajaisahni ... 040408.htm

EN Rammohan
http://www.dsalert.org/news-bank/archiv ... -ram-mohan

KPS Gill
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main43.asp ... rstory.asp

Maybe they are all closet islamists!

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 14 Jul 2011 21:46

Yes, genius, you are the only one with deep insights. And you are the only unbiased source on earth. When you say you are non-partisan, it is the eternal truth. Heil sieg sirjee.

And btw, what the hell do the posts above by Ajai Sahni or KPS Gill or Rammohan have to do with your bias on cherry-picking Chhattisgarh government's actions or inactions? No wonder they call you SCM. Richly deserved for you genetically un-endowed creature. You create a strawman, post reports by people in the lay on surrounding issues, and try to create some legitimacy for your antics? Pass it along to suckers who love you, not me.

PS: Any more planted articles on Mamta-di and what else needs to be outsourced to her?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 14 Jul 2011 21:54

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Yes, genius, you are the only one with deep insights. And you are the only unbiased source on earth. When you say you are non-partisan, it is the eternal truth. Heil sieg sirjee.

And btw, what the hell do the posts above by Ajai Sahni or KPS Gill or Rammohan have to do with your bias on cherry-picking Chhattisgarh government's actions or inactions? No wonder they call you SCM. Richly deserved for you genetically un-endowed creature. You create a strawman, post reports by people in the lay on surrounding issues, and try to create some legitimacy for your antics? Pass it along to suckers who love you, not me.

Stan ji , lets ignore him.This chump is really delusional.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Jul 2011 21:55

Marten wrote:Not sure if the sequence of events has been correctly interpreted. Please do educate me if these are incorrect. As a data point, please consider this:
As early as 1940, there were already agitations around Telengana (then against the Nizam).
Nehru (yeah, that guy) took severe action against the Communists (Marxists) across Bengal to Hyderabad.
After the capitulation of the Razakars, their weapons were supposed to be handed over to the IA. Instead, a large number of these imported weapons (of course from Pakistan, but of "European" origin) were simply handed over to the Communists, who later evolved into the present-day Naxalists. They were always Marxists, except for the stage of revolution where the state hands back power to the people.

Then Nehru rehabilitated the razakars (MIM) in an attempt to bring naxals to their "right size".

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Jul 2011 22:09

Stan_Savljevic wrote:what the hell do the posts above by Ajai Sahni or KPS Gill or Rammohan have to do with your bias on cherry-picking Chhattisgarh government's actions or inactions?

Hmmm, given that you dont read your own references , maybe a bit too much to expect that you would read those referenced by others!

Here's what Ajai S has to say on Judum..

The principal ‘achievement’ of the Salwa Judum was to set up poor tribals as hapless targets for the better armed, trained and motivated Maoists, eventually triggering the displacement of close to 50,000 tribals and their internment in filthy, ill-protected and poorly provided ‘relief’ camps.
-------------
Crucially, any effort to provoke and arm common people to directly confront armed insurgents constitutes a complete and immature abdication of responsibilities on the part of the state. Popular mobilisation may play some role in a counter-terrorist strategy well after the security forces have established their dominance in particular areas; but where they are unable even to effectively protect themselves, provoking the people in regions that are immensely under-policed can only invite retaliation and untold suffering on the heads of the innocent.

Here's what KPS Gill has to say about the C'garh govt effort...

The Andhra DGP used to visit us in Punjab to understand what we were doing – our tactics and strategy. In contrast, Chhattisgarh has no response whatsoever. I was there for one year as an advisor and after three or four days, Chief Minister Raman Singh told me to relax and enjoy my stay.

I wanted to strengthen the police station. The first responder is always the police station. Now, if the first respondent is weak and doesn’t have the manpower or the equipment, how is he going to respond? I remember calling for a meeting in Chhattisgarh — not in the HQ but in the interiors — and many officers came in civvies and in unmarked vehicles. They were trying to pass off as civilians. This is not a response that is going to raise the confidence of the people. Policemen can only die in such a situation.

Violence doesn’t touch Raipur. It touches the tribals and the security forces. I think the state government lacked the political will.

Here's what Rammohan has to say about Judum..

In many cases the police and civil bureaucracy has forced the forest dwelling families to burn their huts in forest glades and come and live in the settlements.
------
Measures like the salwa judum are clever ploys by the same upper caste politician and bureaucrat nexus operating. Above all there can be no military solution to this problem

These are all "strawman, sorrounding issues", isnt it?! A bit like Naveen Patnaik being a "tribal", or Arjun Munda a wannabe "UPA tribal supporter"

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jul 2011 22:22

Arjun wrote:I have just had the pleasure of spending more time reading through the actual text of the court judgement on Salwa Judum. I have to say that it turned out to be far, far worse than the initial impression formed. For anybody with right-wing liberal instincts - this document is so completely full of bilge that it is a classic in a perverse kind of way !!

There are 18 pages of a preamble - where the judges get to pontificate on the depredations of the modern liberalized economy - that literally drips with Marxist sentiment. This is followed by the section that finally comes to the issue at hand, and all kinds of calisthenics seem to have been employed in order to prove that usage of SPOs by Chattisgarh is violative of Articles 14 and 21 of the Constitution. Now that I have a good sense of the kind of logic on display throughout the judgement, I am deeply suspicious of there being any actual semblance of rationality in some of these contrived explanations.

I can post the details of the logical fallacies that I see, but will take up too much of my time. Would ideally love to discuss further with anyone here who has gone through the judgement and has a legal / constitutional bent of mind. I am specifically interested in discussing the logic used to conclude that Articles 14 and 21 of the Constitution have been violated.

Arjun ji, gone through it. But a request as a friend - back off from discussing it here. Some of the arguments put up here are being quoted as a "threat" somewhere.

Let us leave the loopholes and satisfy the divine egos of sublime brains. It will come in handy later.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 14 Jul 2011 22:33

Somnath ji.Nobody here is defending chhattisgarh govt.Our point is why you are solely against Chhattisgarh(and other BJP ruled states) when more than a dozen states are affected by some sort of insurgency(ruled by different political parties).Infact if you look at the reasons for these insurgencies you will find that congress was directly responsible for most of these insurgencies.Only a biased person will ignore the congress role in stoking these insurgencies.

With all due respect to you sir , it looks like you were ass raped by a Congress worker and now you have been stockholmed.This is how some people react in order to deal with their trauma.

By the way utilising indigenous forces is a standard feature of COIN operations.This includes using them in an offensive role.There is nothing wrong with Salwa Judum movement(No offense to Supreme court).The recent judgement by SC will only complicate matters.The tribals who were willing to fight against naxals will no longer trust the establishment.Infact as they will be disarmed, many of them will join naxal ranks just to save their own skins.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 14 Jul 2011 22:39

Only you can do googal?

This is what KPS Gill wrote: I wanted to strengthen the police station. The first responder is always the police station. Now, if the first respondent is weak and doesn’t have the manpower or the equipment, how is he going to respond?
Fact 1: Chhattisgarh increased its state police force by 48 per cent in the seven years from 2000 to 2007.
Fact 2: The police department had 49,143 units of weapons, of which 11,232 or about 23 per cent, were obsolete, the CAG report for the year ended March 31, 2009 said. There was also shortage of weapons as per Bureau of Police Research and Development (BPRD) norms. The police headquarters had assessed a total requirement of 47,265 units under various categories of modern weapons against which the availability was 37,911 units. There was shortage of 9,354 units or about 20 per cent of the requirement, the report added. The Ministry of Home Affairs had allotted 14,183 units of modern weapons during 2006-09 against the demand of 19,334 units by Chhattisgarh Police.

Hee, KPS Gill has not attributed blame on the CTG govt, you have. He has stated facts as he sees, you are extrapolating that as the ineptness of the CTG govt. Now, the CTG govt may be inept, but then so is the MHA and the GoI. If BJP is to blame for CTG's problems, INC is to blame for India's woes. You are being convenient in being a spoon, now the p-value for the null hypothesis is going down more and more to epsilon as you show your spoon-iness.

PS: More facts as I get time, sirjee. I am not a jobless IBanker like you.
PPS: Oh, you reversed the role there: Naveen Patnaik is the potential UPA supporter, Arjun Munda is the tribal. As you know, SCM-itis strikes again.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jul 2011 22:41

The Telengana Marxist movement was started by a section of the then CPI - who were taking a cue from the then favourable stance of Moskow about "peasant uprisings". Thsi has an even longer history from 1928 inner-CPSU factional infighting over "tactical lines" in "colonies". As far as I know Ranadive was initially the firebrand central darling who sided with the Telengana comrades, but later on in typical communist volte-face functioning style changed position in the party congress. 1948 (and 1951) marks this transition - and the Telengana leadership was "expelled", while Ranadive licked prevalent Indian communist ideological boots - which in turn licked Moscow ideological boots - which in turn at this stage was already having second thoughts about the Maoist line of "Sinification of Marxism".

But a large part of the communist membership and delegates to the party overtly submitted but also supported underneath the Telengana line. This party Congress also discussed about the maoist line in connection with the Telengana movement. I don't have the relevant "documents of the CPI" volume with me right now. Will look for it. So, yes, that sort of "fluid base" area, peasant uprising, anti-"feudal" -tactical spin which broadly characterizes Maoism was explicitly used before 1948 by the Telengana Marxists, and identified with Mao-line in the party Congress.

This trend within the communist party simply went under and resurfaced in the 60's CPI split which was more or less complete by 1962 and formalized by mid 60's. CPIM was formed exactly by those who sympathized with the Telengana "comrades" - at least those who joined the CPI(M) on ideological grounds. This in turn led to disillusionment to those in the CPI(M) who had hoped for a more concrete Maoist line and led to the split into CPI(ML). Naxalbari is just an iconic identifier. The debate over this started as early as 1927-28, and intensified from the late 30's. A large part of this was a reflection of the internal ego-clashes and tussles within the Comintern - which again got refleected in "faithful versus heretic" clash in Indian servants of Moscow.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Jul 2011 22:57

darshhan wrote:Our point is why you are solely against Chhattisgarh(and other BJP ruled states) when more than a dozen states are affected by some sort of insurgency(ruled by different political parties).

The INC-BJP equation is irrelevant here - criticism of the C'garh govt is because of its performance on CI (as opposed to high praise it deservedly gets on scial sector)...Why is C'garh so important? Because of this..
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... l05-11.htm

darshhan wrote:By the way utilising indigenous forces is a standard feature of COIN operations.This includes using them in an offensive role

And which state of the union has adopted this "standard, offensive role" for COIN (barring a short stint in Kashmir of ex-militants)? BTW, the local police is an "indigeneous" force - and all successful CIs have been prosecuted by them..

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Fact 2: The police department had 49,143 units of weapons, of which 11,232 or about 23 per cent, were obsolete, the CAG report for the year ended March 31, 2009 said. There was also shortage of weapons as per Bureau of Police Research and Development (BPRD) norms. The police headquarters had assessed a total requirement of 47,265 units under various categories of modern weapons against which the availability was 37,911 units. There was shortage of 9,354 units or about 20 per cent of the requirement, the report added. The Ministry of Home Affairs had allotted 14,183 units of modern weapons during 2006-09 against the demand of 19,334 units by Chhattisgarh Police.

Splendid - so the local police lacks weapons - thats not a state govt responsibility?! The union Home Ministry satisifies "only" 75% of the demand - the state govt can sit back and complain?

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Hee, KPS Gill has not attributed blame on the CTG govt, you have

Really?! I guess the intervierwer is misquoting him!

The Andhra DGP used to visit us in Punjab to understand what we were doing – our tactics and strategy. In contrast, Chhattisgarh has no response whatsoever. I was there for one year as an advisor and after three or four days, Chief Minister Raman Singh told me to relax and enjoy my stay.

I wanted to strengthen the police station. The first responder is always the police station. Now, if the first respondent is weak and doesn’t have the manpower or the equipment, how is he going to respond? I remember calling for a meeting in Chhattisgarh — not in the HQ but in the interiors — and many officers came in civvies and in unmarked vehicles. They were trying to pass off as civilians. This is not a response that is going to raise the confidence of the people. Policemen can only die in such a situation.

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Naveen Patnaik is the potential UPA supporter, Arjun Munda is the tribal

Ahh, didnt you post that both Munda and Patnaik are "tribals", hence potential UPA supporters? And Naveen Patnaik Congress supporter? Well, everything is possible in politics

But not in genealogy!

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 14 Jul 2011 23:07

SCM, you can hardly read a post that stands for posterity. How can I expect you to read carefully a report that was deleted?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 15 Jul 2011 02:36

It’s worth noting that every single one of the lies re: Chhatisgarh being peddled by the usual source on the last two pages of this thread, has been thoroughly refuted before, on pages 66-68 of the same! Apparently it is the dogged belief of some that repeating bogus arguments ad nauseam is an acceptable substitute for logic, understanding and factual basis.

Here are the relevant posts again:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1078048

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1079272

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1079315

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1079321

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1080541

Briefly: anyone with the slightest inkling of Maoist war doctrine would be familiar with the following, from Chairman Mao himself.

Many people think it impossible for guerrillas to exist for long in the enemy's rear. Such a belief reveals lack of comprehension of the relationship that should exist between the people and the troops. The former may be likened to water the latter to the fish who inhabit it. How may it be said that these two cannot exist together?

That being said, the solution is obvious: contain and boil the water around the fish, so that the fish die. That is exactly what Salwa Judum and the Koya Commando SPOs were in the process of accomplishing, and that is what the Maoist-sympathizers who petitioned the SC were desperate to stop.

Agnivesh et al have pulled off a profound irony: using constitutional mechanisms of the state, to sabotage counterinsurgency efforts against terrorist groups waging war on the state. Evidently because those terrorist groups were feeling too much pain to keep up the fight by solely extra-constitutional means!

The bottom line is that there was simply no alternative to Salwa Judum and SPO recruitment, other than leaving the tribals helpless before the tender mercies of the Maoists. Chhatisgarh is one of India’s fastest-growing states, but is still a desperately poor one with very undeveloped infrastructure. Given that level of infrastructure, it takes several hours for regular state police units to even reach the site of an attack in a remote area like Dantewada... a completely unrealistic time-frame for any actionable response.

Non-sequiturs about “fiscal space” aside, Chhatisgarh simply does not have the resources to combat its Maoist insurgency without empowering its tribals to protect their homes and families. The complicity of the Congress GOI in underfunding Chhatisgarh’s counter-insurgency efforts, detailed in the posts linked above, speaks for itself.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 15 Jul 2011 02:40

It cannot be denied that certain retired police and BSF officials have been critical of the Chhatisgarh government’s decision to raise Salwa Judum and tribal SPOs as instruments of counter-insurgency.

This seems contradictory, especially because actively serving members of the central security forces have hailed those same tribal SPOs as crucial to their efforts against the Maoists: http://naxalwatch.blogspot.com/2011/01/ ... ategy.html

Sources said the number of special police officials (SPOs) would be increased to 25,500 from 13,500 now. Their salary of Rs 1,500 was also likely to see a substantial increase, the sources added.
SPOs have been a big help to paramilitary forces who have often not been on the best of terms with state police forces. These officials, mostly tribal youths with anti-Naxalite leanings or with a history of being Maoist, have excellent local knowledge that come in handy when security forces conduct operations.

“When we do not have enough policemen like in Chhattisgarh’s Dantewada, we take SPOs, so an increase in their number is a welcome move,” said a CRPF officer.

The contradiction is hardly surprising, if you think about it. People (especially public servants) who spend their entire careers working within the institutional confines of a system, face a certain cognitive dissonance when confronted with new paradigms of systemic response to changing times and changing realities.

When retired stalwarts of State and Central security agencies see new types of instruments being deployed to confront new types of threats, it surely sticks in their craw that these new instruments may not have to operate within the same institutional constraints as they themselves did.

Salwa Judum does not have to play by the rules of the IPS... hence it is natural that many lifelong veterans of the IPS may view it with a jaundiced eye for that reason alone; nothing to do with the results.

This is not because those veterans are “enemies of India” or “Islamists”, as those who deliberately quote them out of context on this forum have repeatedly claimed.

No one can deny the superb job KPS Gill did in Punjab, or EN Rammohan’s largely professional leadership of the BSF. Yet, one can hardly expect these gentlemen to be wholeheartedly welcoming of new solutions which have moved beyond the paradigms they lived by … they are only human, and have as much attachment to institutional inertia as anyone else.

After all, many Civil Servants of the pre-reforms era, who had rendered excellent yeoman service to India in its formative decades, were yet highly critical of liberalization from 1992 onwards…because it meant the end of a License Raj they had dedicated their entire lives to!

This does not make the old guard "evil" or "communist"... it is simply a symptom the challenge they face in adapting to new realities.

The Maoists cannot be compared to the Punjab or J&K terrorists in terms of tactics, strategy or composition; neither are their target areas similar to those relatively well-funded and well-developed states.

KPS Gill himself had to transgress a lot of institutional boundaries, and evolve a number of unorthodox, pathbreaking techniques during his tenure in Punjab. It was through these techniques that he achieved success against the Khalistan terrorist groups, which posed an unprecedented type of challenge to the Indian state in the 1980s.

One hopes that an officer of his genius will come to terms with the fact that different threats in different circumstances call for different solutions. The only way these threats can be effectively countered, is by effecting changes that broaden the scope of response beyond existing institutional constraints. That was what he himself did, and it is what the Chhatisgarh government has also done by deploying SPOs and empowering the tribals.

One is also a little surprised by the rhetoric of caste-baiting and class-warfare in EN Rammohan’s critique of Chhatisgarh counterinsurgency. Surely a professional of his calibre need not resort to that sort of argument in order to make a legitimate criticism of a state’s counter-insurgency effort. I imagine that he could have offered valid points of criticism from within his own domain of expertise, rather than asserting that there can be “no military solution” to a military threat!

Now it seems that such statements by these gentlemen… and by other “experts” of perhaps far less distinction and far more P.R. ability… somehow engender a wealth of cherry-picked and readily-googled soundbites in the media. As we can see, these soundbites have been faithfully reproduced here for your deception by the resident Mainovadi apologist.

To most of us, it is clear that this phenomenon owes more to the media’s political biases than any genuine opprobrium of “experts” towards Salwa Judum or the SPOs. But then, shamelessness has never stopped a Mainovadi from grasping at any available straw.