Artillery Discussion Thread

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 00:21

Rupak wrote:Rohit did you try emailing me?

I sent you an email rupak? did you get it...

koti · Post by **koti** » 16 Jul 2011 23:19

Sometime back I stumbled upon some article which stated that India has the license produce 1000 FH-77 locally. Can any one comment on this?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Jul 2011 23:30

we didn't exercise the rights.

koti · Post by **koti** » 16 Jul 2011 23:36

Yes.
Does that mean that we cant do that anymore?

Also, is it manufacturing or just assembly?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Jul 2011 10:10

^^^
This was full TOT to the full extent of the phrase. But was not implemented due the corruption allegations. The same reason was used not to assemble the additional 209s.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jul 2011 11:00

Rahul M wrote:we didn't exercise the rights.

does it mean that Desh still HAS the Rights or has it lapsed? do we have the designs for the howitzer to manufacture it in Desh? if this is true, we should take it up and manufacture the 1K Howitzers.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Jul 2011 11:13

IIRC we paid for ToT, at least part of it but didn't get any of those things because the politicos were afraid to ask for them. something similar happened with the type 209 sub. we had paid for the lic manufacture of 2 more subs that were not built due to fear of allegations. it's not for nothing that 90's are known as the lost decade. only the AF fared somewhat better.
I heard from a senior IA officer that mulayam singh who was def-min at the time say to one his aides that he could not 'risk' any military acquisition during his tenure. this was typical attitude at the time.

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 17 Jul 2011 11:23

Futuristic infantry combat vehicle set to roll

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2011 12:13

general dynamics land systems does not seem to have any tracked IFV at all. their stryker and LAV families are all wheeled. so unless the FICV has a wheeled component to it, I am not sure what they hope to offer?

BAE systems on other hand, with ownership of Warrior , CV90, Bradley, M113 and a vast range of sensor and weapons kits is truly in a sweet spot for this deal. and they have their toe in various next gen khanate projects as well.

kmw with their puma family could be a player.

do we know who TELCO and L&T are bidding with?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jul 2011 12:29

venku_Raj wrote:Futuristic infantry combat vehicle set to roll

The key to a shortlist for any company is their Indian Partner. MOD is not going to go with a vendor who might have a super-duper ICV but does not have a Strong manufacturing base (own or partners in Desh). This is where Tatas, L&T and Mahindras (in no particular order) would be key.
I feel the decision to shortlist two vendors who would then go to the next phase would be a way to insert OFB/DRDO into the mix... I am per-se not averse to OFB Medak getting a good chunk of work.
PS: did you know that OFB Medak had restarted BMP-II production only in 2010 after a long hiatus, pray what could they have been manufacturing in these days...
WARNING: this is not a question.. but a rhetorical musing.. lest someone passes a smart-alec comment that Shrinivasan is fishing for information.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 17 Jul 2011 14:01

Rahul M wrote:IIRC we paid for ToT, at least part of it but didn't get any of those things because the politicos were afraid to ask for them. something similar happened with the type 209 sub. we had paid for the lic manufacture of 2 more subs that were not built due to fear of allegations.

So if we have paid for it we can, atleast now, ask them to give us the design and the requisite technologies to locally manufacture the gun.. When the money has been paid why should we not exercise the right to build the guns.. And that too when we need them badly..

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jul 2011 23:44

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Rahul M wrote:IIRC we paid for ToT, at least part of it but didn't get any of those things because the politicos were afraid to ask for them. something similar happened with the type 209 sub. we had paid for the lic manufacture of 2 more subs that were not built due to fear of allegations.
So if we have paid for it we can, atleast now, ask them to give us the design and the requisite technologies to locally manufacture the gun.. When the money has been paid why should we not exercise the right to build the guns.. And that too when we need them badly..

Did we already pay for TOT? why would these payments be done at the outset rather than in phases...I think after we blacklisted AB Bofors, we did not get anything from them including spares, gyan or even ammo. from our side we did not make any further payments...
I we had already made payments, what stopped desh from starting to manufacture these gun in BDL/OFB?
Was this TOT payment part of the kickback payoffs? if this were true, Bofors scandal is far bigger than the 64Crores it was portrayed to be.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 04:13

Indian "Army Ordnance Corps" is on a roll floating multiple tenders for Artillery Ammo and Supplies...
122mm and 155mm Arty shells, 160mm Mortars etc... some of this might be old news for us BRJingos.. they have extended the tender deadline too. I am not going into details here but on a careful perusal of the documents one can glean multiple nuggets of information. one rhetorical question?
why are they buying so many 155mm Arty shells if they don't have any new 155mm Arty guns?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Jul 2011 05:47

Shrinivasan wrote:Indian "Army Ordnance Corps" is on a roll floating multiple tenders for Artillery Ammo and Supplies...
why are they buying so many 155mm Arty shells if they don't have any new 155mm Arty guns?

Why cant they manufacture in home? The factory was suppose to come up 12 years ago.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 18 Jul 2011 05:53

Indian Army is not usually keen on indegenisation.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 06:03

Prem wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:Indian "Army Ordnance Corps" is on a roll floating multiple tenders for Artillery Ammo and Supplies...why are they buying so many 155mm Arty shells if they don't have any new 155mm Arty guns?
Why cant they manufacture in home? The factory was suppose to come up 12 years ago.

I don't know... there should be something special about these shells that Desh cannot make these...you see they are not buying 105mm or 130mm, because we are producing these... we don't produce 122mm but OFB produces some varieties of 155mm shells, these should be special or we need some new variants.. i don't know...I'll wait for the Gurus!!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Jul 2011 06:07

Why are the futuristic combat armored vehicles have a design to expose the cat-track and wheels?

are they design to take any type of hits?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 06:12

aditya.agd wrote:Indian Army is not usually keen on indegenisation.

save the sarcasm, if you don't have anything to offer or the time/ energy to analyse this!!! how do you know IA does not want to indigenize, IA order so many things from local manufacturers / OFB / BEL / BDL/ BEML etc. Is it IA's fault if domestic manufacturers can't manufacture all that is needed? Is it IA's fault if a domestic Mil-Ind complex is not well developed.
Arjun saga notwithstanding?!?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 06:21

For the smart Alecs who pass half baked comments about defence production in India... this is what OFB produces in the different space it is involved in...
Ammunition - http://ofbindia.nic.in/index.php?wh=A-E-P-C&lang=en
Weapons - http://ofbindia.nic.in/index.php?wh=Weapons&lang=en
Mil Vehicles - http://ofbindia.nic.in/index.php?wh=MV&lang=en
Armoured Vehicles - http://ofbindia.nic.in/index.php?wh=AV&lang=en

Recently IA has initiated a project titled FICV which would be exclusively for India companies. This is for manufacturing the future Infantry Combat Vehicle which will replace the BMP-IIs in the IA's inventory.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Jul 2011 19:00

^^^

From one of the links posted above....

OFB upgrade of 130 MM to 155MM

The question to the chaiwalas is, is this a Desi name of the Soltam upgrade? Or is the IA converting the 130 MM to 155 MM and is issuing a global tender for more guns?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jul 2011 19:04

That is the domestic name of the Soltam upgrade.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Jul 2011 19:07

^^^

Thanks

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 23:25

rohitvats wrote:That is the domestic name of the Soltam upgrade.

How many 130mm were converted to 155mm standard? also some 130mm towed arty were converted into SP Arty. Are these SP Arty130mm or 155mm?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 18 Jul 2011 23:32

Weren't the 130mm upgrade stopped as the army found some issues with it?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 02:44

putnanja wrote:Weren't the 130mm upgrade stopped as the army found some issues with it?

According to Open Source Information from SIPRI 180 M-46 130mm rebuilt to M-46S 155mm standards.
A limited # of M-45 130mm guns were converted to SPH too (I still wonder how they did it though?)
Rohit need your gyan sir?!?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jul 2011 09:28

The initial contract was for 10 regiments/180 guns. After some hiccups, the same has been completed.

The second round is planned for double the earlier number - I had posted the numbers from an article by ex-Lt. Gen. from arty in the Force magazine on the exact numbers. Will re-look again.

The SP version of 130mm Gun was a desi jugaad and was undertaken in late 80s.....AFAIK, the same has been pahsed out. The gun continued to be 130mm in this case.

Check these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-46_Catapult
http://www.fototime.com/photos/st/8635D ... 20Army.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... lt_gun.jpg

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 10:34

rohitvats wrote:The second round is planned for double the earlier number - I had posted the numbers from an article by ex-Lt. Gen. from arty in the Force magazine on the exact numbers.

Thanks for the confirmation of 130 to 155mm conversion. Regarding this second larger round of upgrade. Did we buy a further round of M-46 130mm for conversion or these guns already existed in IA's inventory?
For the first round of conversion we bought 180 gun kits to convert to 155mm.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 13:56

Shrinivasan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The second round is planned for double the earlier number - I had posted the numbers from an article by ex-Lt. Gen. from arty in the Force magazine on the exact numbers.
Thanks for the confirmation of 130 to 155mm conversion. Regarding this second larger round of upgrade. Did we buy a further round of M-46 130mm for conversion or these guns already existed in IA's inventory?
For the first round of conversion we bought 180 gun kits to convert to 155mm.

Rohit, could you please review the arty article in unmentionable's blog, it looks like an unending rant on Indian Arty, special emphasis on M-46 upgrade failure. It would help us jingos understand things better and avoid unnecessary dhoti shivers.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Jul 2011 00:06

While searching on the web, I came across this article:

This article is from 2009, didn't find any info on whether the issue was resolved .

Probe stalls upgrade, Army to get new guns

...
The Indian Army is set to order new artillery guns worth approximately Rs 1,000 crore as plans to upgrade existing guns have been stalled after a probe was initiated against the Israeli firm Soltam which had been awarded the contract.
...
...
While Soltam has already upgraded 180 Russian M46 guns, further orders have been stalled, forcing the Army to place orders for new guns.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 10:52

Shrinivasan wrote:Rohit, could you please review the arty article in unmentionable's blog, it looks like an unending rant on Indian Arty, special emphasis on M-46 upgrade failure. It would help us jingos understand things better and avoid unnecessary dhoti shivers.

Apart from his comments, other sources (Incl COAS JJ Singh's interview) talks about successfully completing M-46 upgrade to 155mm.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jul 2011 12:36

Every source, even an article by Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal talks, about first set of upgrade having gone through. There is a 2010 RFI by IA asking for upgrade of 300 units....which sits quite well with the good General, whose article I quoted, had said.

Edited: changed RFP to RFI

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 13:38

rohitvats wrote:Every source, even an article by Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal talks, about first set of upgrade having gone through. There is a 2010 RFP by IA asking for upgrade of 300 units....which sits quite well with the good General, whose article I quoted, had said.

Ignore his Rants... check your gmail please...

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 23 Jul 2011 15:41

Well, there was a barrel burst and this was stalled for a while.

But now it seems 180 may have been done after all.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 23 Jul 2011 20:55

Shrinivasan wrote: Thanks for the confirmation of 130 to 155mm conversion. Regarding this second larger round of upgrade. Did we buy a further round of M-46 130mm for conversion or these guns already existed in IA's inventory?
For the first round of conversion we bought 180 gun kits to convert to 155mm.

In 2009 there was a report about India buying more 130 MM guns.

This report puts the total figure to be upgunned at 500.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jul 2011 21:54

Vipul wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: Thanks for the confirmation of 130 to 155mm conversion. Regarding this second larger round of upgrade. Did we buy a further round of M-46 130mm for conversion or these guns already existed in IA's inventory?
For the first round of conversion we bought 180 gun kits to convert to 155mm.
In 2009 there was a report about India buying more 130 MM guns.

This report puts the total figure to be upgunned at 500.

The initial plan was for 10 regiments/180 guns in first tranche with imported kits and the balance plan was for 14 Regiments/252 guns to be done by Ordnance Factories. Which comes out to 432 guns in all. No idea what happened to the balance 252 guns part.

In March 2010, IA had issued fresh RFI for further 300 guns - which might well be for the guns originally planned.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 24 Jul 2011 05:55

Couple of articles confirming that initial M46 upgrade for 180 guns went through ....

How can Army win wars with outdated artillery - Manoj Joshi

...
There is some relief that we have managed to upgrade some 180 pieces of the fabled 130 mm M46 Russian medium guns with the help of the Israelis.
...

And here is the article by Brig Gurmeet Kanwal ...

Modernising the Indian Army

...
Approximately 180 pieces of 130mm M46 Russian medium guns have been successfully ‘up-gunned’ to 155mm calibre with ordnance supplied by Soltam of Israel. The new barrel length of 45 calibres has enhanced the range of the gun to about 40 km with extended range ammunition.
...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 08:23

It is true that the Indian Army has not inducted artillery with higher Cal (Barrel Length) or 155mm Arty, but we have been steadily increasing our inventory of smaller Cal Arty as well as MBRLs. What is the big advantage of type Arty or Rocket Arty.
That too when MBRLs are all self propelled.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 30 Aug 2011 00:01

Tube arty = covers smaller target area -> higher precision (relatively) but lesser range.
Rocket arty = covers larger target area -> lesser precision but longer range.

Tube arty can provide sustained fire for a longer duration due to faster reload and firing times compared to rocket arty. But then rocket arty can deliver more explosives than tube arty.

In a rough manner of speaking, for a given amount of explosive to be landed on a target:
Tube arty will require more rounds fired with all of them landing a smaller CEP with 'continuous' steady rate of fire.
Rocket arty will fire lesser salvos but have higher CEP with pulse rate of fire.
You decide based on what you have available at hand and your mission objectives.
*Disclaimer: The above is my anal-e-sis with a tin foil hat only, so please spare the brickbats

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Aug 2011 04:18

Is there any news of Bhim programme with some DRDO Gun? There seems to be something happening there and i could not get it on net for the second time. Any Gurus?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 30 Aug 2011 08:47

BHIM now mounts a slovak 155/52 gun supplied by DMD. yes its from the Zuzana, DANA, ityadi family.

It is a BEML project now.