Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 05 Jul 2011 06:38

^^^ HUH? Not all of us speak Hindi. I know Telugu onlee.

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 05 Jul 2011 07:56

I was just reading up on TATA Motors when I came across this interesting piece of news.
They had brought out a concept super-car - the C-x75 .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_C-X75

The interesting thing about this car is that it uses 2 micro-turbines (weight < 50kgs). Also, interesting to hear is that the TATA Motors have bought a stake in the company manufacturing these turbines ...
http://www.bladonjets.com/news/tata-ltd ... adon-jets/

so do you think this can/may have an impact w.r.t what we are all discussing?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Jul 2011 08:00

nikhil_p wrote:Chaiwallah info on Prahaar.
8 pahiye ki gaadi jisme CTIS hain. Mijjile kanastari dibbe mai hai, Pinakha jaise hi bharat petroleum lubricant (servo) se track hoti hai, par dibba pura seedha bhi ho sakta hai. 150 ki naaminal raange hai jo uske udne ke kon aur disha se nirdharit hoti hai. Mijjile bahut sasti hai aur banane ki kshamata kaafi jyada hogi. loading system puri tarah swayam chaalit hogi.

Blessed are these Paanwalas...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Jul 2011 08:04

nikhil_p wrote:Chaiwallah info on Prahaar.

8 pahiye ki gaadi jisme CTIS hain. Mijjile kanastari dibbe mai hai, Pinakha jaise hi bharat petroleum lubricant (servo) se track hoti hai, par dibba pura seedha bhi ho sakta hai. 150 ki naaminal raange hai jo uske udne ke kon aur disha se nirdharit hoti hai. Mijjile bahut sasti hai aur banane ki kshamata kaafi jyada hogi. loading system puri tarah swayam chaalit hogi.

Here is rough Yenglish translation...
Runs on a 8 wheeled truck with CTIS - Central Tire Inflation System.
Missile is Cannisterized
Like Pinaka it has a Servo motor for tracking / elevation etc
The launcher boxes can go vertical. VL system which is transported in horizontal posn.
Nominal Range 150KM, depends on direction of fire (rest I didn;t understand)
Missile is Cheap but Manufacturing would take more time (Need clarification)
Loading is pretty automatic - There is an Autoloader.

vivekmehta · Post by **vivekmehta** » 05 Jul 2011 08:44

Shrinivasan wrote:
nikhil_p wrote:Chaiwallah info on Prahaar.

8 pahiye ki gaadi jisme CTIS hain. Mijjile kanastari dibbe mai hai, Pinakha jaise hi bharat petroleum lubricant (servo) se track hoti hai, par dibba pura seedha bhi ho sakta hai. 150 ki naaminal raange hai jo uske udne ke kon aur disha se nirdharit hoti hai. Mijjile bahut sasti hai aur banane ki kshamata kaafi jyada hogi. loading system puri tarah swayam chaalit hogi.
Here is rough Yenglish translation...
Runs on a 8 wheeled truck with CTIS - Central Tire Inflation System.
Missile is Cannisterized
Like Pinaka it has a Servo motor for tracking / elevation etc
The launcher boxes can go vertical. VL system which is transported in horizontal posn.
Nominal Range 150KM, depends on direction of fire (rest I didn;t understand)---- Angle of launch
Missile is Cheap but Manufacturing would take more time (Need clarification)
Loading is pretty automatic - There is an Autoloader.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 05 Jul 2011 08:55

Here is rough Yenglish translation...
Runs on a 8 wheeled truck with CTIS - Central Tire Inflation System.
Missile is Cannisterized
Like Pinaka it has a Servo motor for tracking / elevation etc
The launcher boxes can go vertical. VL system which is transported in horizontal posn.
Nominal Range 150KM, depends on direction and angle of launchof fire---how direction??
Missile is Cheap and there should be good capability of manufacture
Loading system will be completely auto

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 05 Jul 2011 09:04

i think nikhil's reason for using convoluted hinglish was to let these details remain "for OUR consumption ONLY"
not sure translating it into direct numbers is what he wanted.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Jul 2011 09:05

ks_sachin wrote:Here is rough Yenglish translation...
Runs on a 8 wheeled truck with CTIS - Central Tire Inflation System.
Missile is Cannisterized
Like Pinaka it has a Servo motor for tracking / elevation etc
The launcher boxes can go vertical. VL system which is transported in horizontal posn.
Nominal Range 150KM, depends on direction and angle of launchof fire---how direction??
Missile is Cheap and there should be good capability of manufacture
Loading system will be completely auto

Thanks Sachin... a Pooch... If it is Vertically Launched, how is Angle of Attack matter, is the Angle of Impact on the target or the angle of Launch (which should be 90 degrees)
Direction should mean "wind direction", which is also Iffy as the missile would be attain supersonic velocity in couple of seconds going straight up before aligning itself to the target at a decent altitude

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Jul 2011 09:07

akimalik wrote:i think nikhil's reason for using convoluted hinglish was to let these details remain "for OUR consumption ONLY"
not sure translating it into direct numbers is what he wanted.

Def and Dumb Forum has got a whole topic running to 20-30 pages on Prahaar... also DRDO has already announced this missile.. Abhi kya Thakleef Hai Ji?

vic · Post by **vic** » 05 Jul 2011 09:10

My guess is that Prahar is Pinaka -2. As to fit 6 missiles in tatra size vehicle the dia has to be between 300-400mm and the length also is limited.

In 2005, ARDE announced that it was developing a 7.2 metre rocket for the Pinaka MBRL, which reach a distance of 120 km and carry a 250 kg payload

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... -MBRL.html

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 05 Jul 2011 18:54

ks_sachin wrote:Here is rough Yenglish translation...
Runs on a 8 wheeled truck with CTIS - Central Tire Inflation System.
Missile is Cannisterized
Like Pinaka it has a Servo motor for tracking / elevation etc
The launcher boxes can go vertical. VL system which is transported in horizontal posn.
Nominal Range 150KM, depends on direction and angle of launchof fire---how direction??
Missile is Cheap and there should be good capability of manufacture
Loading system will be completely auto

If the missile changes direction during flight like that of Iskander, the range could be less.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 05 Jul 2011 19:29

D Roy wrote:Once upon a time moi went to def expo 2010. Moi did not miss that particular stall naturally nor that particular display. Moi was told it is a GLCMmmmmm laaaaancher ( laaang range) and that birdieeees have been told naaat to talk much about it.

By the way fellow birathers, L&T is set to get a huge order from the military for MBRLs and such like.

L&T has been working on Pinaka, Namica and some Akash launchers since ~ 20 years.

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 05 Jul 2011 19:46

Shrinivasan wrote:
D Roy wrote:It is meant for a future LR-GLCM. beyond that draw your own conclusions.
Shukriya...thanks for the confirmation...

Hey. Share your secrets with us

K

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jul 2011 20:04

nirbhay is not a secret. while 18ft torpedo dimension may restrict its fuel tank somewhat in SLCM role, for GLCM nothing prevents us from having a longer tube by 4ft and packing in 21" x 48" of more fuel. the US had bigger BGM missiles off that TEL and also from B52 (had a fixed air intake) and range of 2500km vs the tomahawk SLCM of 1500km.

likewise if nirbhay SLCM is being set for 1000km, we can expect 1500-2000km for GLCM version...lets say with a 250kg of warhead...enough for a smallish nuclear device we already tested, as also varities of conventional.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jul 2011 20:40

Sorry to join late but, Shrinivasan why do you want to pin DRoy on specifics? What goes your father?

Don't do that again. Chai khabar should never be pressured for more.

DRoy no need to feel pressured to answer.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 05 Jul 2011 20:47

Biraders chota clarification for my prev post.

It is not a VLS but can be used as VLS. This means that the launch system has high tractability all the way to 90 degs. Also chaiwallah informs that it will be in two diff launch systems. The system is designed to be scalable. The time to action is less than 3 mins. As someone mentioned it is a further development of the Pinaka MBRLS, however at a point the differences were too much and so instead of Pin2 it was called Prahaar. Warhead weight is classified. Also he said range is nominal onlee...(+ or -). They are targetting a CEP of less than 20 metres.

There was a reason to use bringlish, it was meant only for BRfites. But the cat is out of the bag. BTW chaiwallah had delivered chai last month, but asked not to drink till reheated.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 02:39

ramana wrote:Sorry to join late but, Shrinivasan why do you want to pin DRoy on specifics? What goes your father?

Don't do that again. Chai khabar should never be pressured for more.

DRoy no need to feel pressured to answer.

no specifics needed? did i pressurise for more info.. sorry for that DRoy...anyway let us discuss only Public Domain info...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 02:42

Kersi D wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:Shukriya...thanks for the confirmation...
Hey. Share your secrets with us

K

Kersi, what secrets? I only discuss public domain info or educative guesses and not wild speculations (which might lead to classified info)

I think the Term "shukriya" gave you some ideas... me SDRE onlee...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 02:46

nikhil_p wrote:Biraders chota clarification for my prev post.

There was a reason to use bringlish, it was meant only for BRfites. But the cat is out of the bag. BTW chaiwallah had delivered chai last month, but asked not to drink till reheated.

thanks for sharing some reheated Chai...Let us wait for July 17th to see test results... Shov Aroor has also promised updates... Even Mr Chor has posted updated for those still reading his rag

vic · Post by **vic** » 08 Jul 2011 08:16

Chor as always is an @sshole and a chor. He has cut and pasted Israeli EXTRA specifications. If the earlier reports are correct that Pinaka-2 = Prahaar is around 7.2m long and 300mm dia then its weight should be around 800 per rocket with warhead of 200-250kg, something near Smerch rockets. With CEP of around 20m it has to have some sort of guidance based on GPS and/or INS or command etc as unguided rocket would have CEP of 5 to 10km at 150km range.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 08 Jul 2011 09:36

vic wrote:Chor as always is an @sshole and a chor. He has cut and pasted Israeli EXTRA specifications.

don't waste your breath on him, he keeps contradicting himself and cannot tolerate anyone pointing out flaws in his logic. I wonder he posted as an addendum a turf war between Israeli land and air force in the Prahaar post? Probably wants to sound authoritative. His posts are worse than Lifafa DDMs in mainstream newspaper. Waiting for Taramak to come back.

koti · Post by **koti** » 08 Jul 2011 10:37

I was browsing through the specs of different ATGM's and LAHAT caught my attention.

It is a ~14KG Missile with an 8KM range. It has a diameter of around 105mm, length of around one meter and a warhead weighing 4.5 kg's.
Comparing that with the Javelin, which is a 11.5kg missile with a range of upto 2500 mts. It has a diameter of 127mm, length of 1.1mts and a warhead weighing 8.4kgs.

I was wondering at the thought of using LAHAT as a long range man portable system. We already have LAHAT's in our inventory and the missile being a Semi active laser guided one can very well be used from Aircraft with a range of upto 13 km.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 12:00

I saw this picture in Indian-Defence forum, it shows a canisterized Missile being launched as part of a BMD test.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_QORU99WkuY/T ... issile.jpg
This is most likely the target missile as the other picture on the article is the Programme AD interceptor. Can someone ID this missile. I have always heard DRDO talking about a modified Prithvi being used as the Target. but this missile looks new.
What is more intriguing is the fact that it is launched from one of SIX launch tubes. Very similar to Shri Sarasvat's description of Prahaar!!!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Jul 2011 12:15

^^^That is the Israel Arrow Missile.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 16 Jul 2011 12:29

And the arrow wiki article has the same picture. It mentions the location as Point Mugu, California, part of Arrow 2 test.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_%28missile%29

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 16 Jul 2011 12:51

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ne ... tfire.html

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 13:23

rohitvats wrote:^^^That is the Israel Arrow Missile.

Thanks Rohit, any chance Desh was slipped couple of units? or is it DDM?
how come Mr. C . Gupta did not connect Arrow and Prahaar and call it an Israeli product which MR Sarasvat is wrongly calling a SRBM even though it is a SAM because he doesn't know his ABCs. how there is a JV for this with yada yada yada...
he probably missed this... or did not get the Arrow brochure as it was blocked by the US to Desh?!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Jul 2011 13:25

Another piece of a**-whipping being dished out to our dear freind at trishul blogspot:

Colonel JitendraVyas said...

Mr Prasun,

In your first comment you mentioned that the accuracy of SS-150 is dismissal and the system is cumbersome and so on.

Me being witnessed a trial launch,I assure you that the accuracy of the system has been brought down to 4-6mts.Other than the system being a liquid fueled,its still our best choice to take down the enemy targets with a wide variety of targets.Been using the system fora long time and having tested it multiple times,I will place my bet on using this one. All the inventory of 150`s which are ofcourse a huge number running into a number of hundreds has to be expelled to make room for new inventories.
On the other hand you cant compare a system like prithvi to any other contemporary one. Prithvi lies in an entirely different block. IF accuracy is one factor, then its anti-ABM is another factor.

Having been sitting on a huge pile of prithvi inventory, every new technology that goes into the next gen long range missiles is being tested on prithvis first.Before the anti-boost phase ABM system was put onto A-III its been tested on Prithvis. Just like all other INS and warhead detonation mechanisms and so on.
We just have to accept that with no prithvi, there is no further development of missile technology in India.

And regarding your unresearched comment of Prahaar,that its an indigenised LORA, you are completely wrong at it again. It is a spin-off AAD.While LORA is a quasi ballistic missile, Prahaar is not.

My sinciere advice is that, next time when you have to post, do research on it.Just dont post whatever pops in your mind

The response from our dear freind as usual was frothing at mount and name calling...no objective replies. So much for being a defence reporter.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 13:47

rohitvats wrote:Another piece of a**-whipping being dished out to our dear freind at xxxx
The response from our dear freind as usual was frothing at mount and name calling...no objective replies. So much for being a defence reporter.

What else did you expect from him... probably deleted this comment already.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 14:25

Does anyone have any updates on Agni-2P, no news on this after the failed launch. any update would be appreciated.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 16 Jul 2011 14:32

Why do i feel that Shrinivasan is fishing here, over enthu/perenially online/great interest on regiment symbols/always seeking news

Shrinivasan ji apologies in advance but being cautious thats it, of course no one divulges confidential info here but still ...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 14:38

suryag wrote:Why do i feel that Shrinivasan is fishing here, over enthu/perenially online/great interest on regiment symbols/always seeking news

Shrinivasan ji apologies in advance but being cautious thats it, of course no one divulges confidential info here but still ...

i am on a vacation of sorts...also i deal only in public domain info...

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 16 Jul 2011 14:41

suryag wrote:Why do i feel that Shrinivasan is fishing here, over enthu/perenially online/great interest on regiment symbols/always seeking news

Shrinivasan ji apologies in advance but being cautious thats it, of course no one divulges confidential info here but still ...

hmmm......interesting.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 16 Jul 2011 20:09

rohitvats wrote: So much for being a defence reporter.

He is a businessman. Why anyone expect him to say good about something which is not his business?

BTW, he could be anyone, businessman, commission agent or middleman but he definitely not wants to be identified as a journalist by his own admission.

What is surprising to me is he seems to know more about foreign military systems, particularly Israeli ones, but couldn't have time to understand or say good words about Prithvi Missile accuracy, even though there are numerous reports/news about better accuracy of the system. Latest The Hindu news on Prithvi reported its accuracy as better than 10 meters.

Point is he is not your next door reporter to report back all the happenings as it is, but a businessman who also does the job of "reporting".

Just an observation with all the necessary disclaimers.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Jul 2011 20:23

^^^That actually makes lot of sense.

I have always wondered about all his articles being jargon heavy and tendecny to refer to lot of tangential, and many a times unrelated, stuff. It seems he wants to show that he has 'expert' level understanding of the subject matter, to obfuscate the short-comings and IMO, these are targeted more at foreign readers. It seems by using all these jargons and mumbo-jumbo, he somehow wants to gain credibility and importance -the final word on all things Indian defence. But the problem, for him, is that many a well informed people look through the charade. Example of the same is the comment by ex-IA person which I posted above. Of the hundered things he says, IMO, he has accuracy of 40%-50%. He is actually looking desperately for some sort of respect...but alas, there are many a party poopers for him!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 23:46

rohitvats wrote:Of the hundered things he says, IMO, he has accuracy of 40%-50%. He is actually looking desperately for some sort of respect...but alas, there are many a party poopers for him!!!

Rohit, It is not just a singular lack of knowledge/research. It is also his singular lack of sources. Hence dependance on BROCHURES etc. Also he does not seem to cross check an information (lack of research).
Probably he has milked his sources dry, exposed them, so basically compromised them... now they are running for cover and thus his sources are dried up. What does he bring in return. Nothing...
In the Security Industry... one needs to be able to contribute in a discussion. Also a sense of humility is very important.. If you claim a know all attitude... before you know it walls go up.... JMHT.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Jul 2011 11:36

Is there a news of the testing of Prahar, usually the test launch is conducted at 10 AM.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jul 2011 12:13

Pratyush wrote:Is there a news of the testing of Prahar, usually the test launch is conducted at 10 AM.

Jingos are waiting with bated breath to hear the great news about the tests...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2011 12:21

they seldom test after 3pm, that too on a sunday. so if it doesnt happen in next 2 hrs wont happen today.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 17 Jul 2011 12:31

After testing doesnt it take couple of hours to analyse and then let out the press release