India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Post Reply
Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

Philip wrote:we could've had about 80 new 4++ gen aircrtaft instead,which would have twice the lifespan of the M-2000s and still pursued a limited upgrade of the M-2000s as was done with the Sea Harriers for about $10m per plane! Or as Tejas has rightly said,financed a whole new engine development centre in India (B'lore) with testing facilities which many senior figures in Indian aviation/IAF have been pleading for for decades.
Which 4++ gen plane is available with India to acquire 50 #s? what would the total acquisition cost be for an aircraft like F16IN (block60) for IAF (ignore the strings and shackles attached to it for arguments sake)...
here we have a capable platform, which IAF has been operating for decades, Eventhough M2Ks are BASED ONLY in Gwalior, they were operated from multiple bases during Kargil & Parakram.
We are getting a high altitude engine test facility in India on the line of a Gromov. How much money we pump into GTRE for our Jet Engine development, it is going to take time, the funding problems were in the years past where we put in peanuts into it, now health funding levels are being maintained, what the heck, this was the same case with every aspect of India in the 80s and 90s where we were short of funds!!!
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19327
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by NRao »

We are getting a high altitude engine test facility in India on the line of a Gromov.
That was via Boeing.

Do we have any idea what the M2K upgrades will get India? I would push for the IP for the hot section.
Which 4++ gen plane is available with India to acquire 50 #s?
Guessing: MiG-29s upgraded to MiG-35? 50 #s, easy. Spares? Cannot say.
shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by shukla »

Boeing also briefed by IAF on technical evaluations.

US fighter companies satisfied after MMRCA
FlightGlobal
Boeing and Lockheed Martin representatives attended a government-to-government debriefing between Indian and US officials on 11 July
Both companies have previously said they accept the IAF's decision, but requested a debrief to understand why their bids fell short in the technical evaluation. Details of the debriefing have not been disclosed, but neither company stated any complaints about the results of the IAF's evaluation process. "The decision has been made by the IAF and throughout the competition [Lockheed Martin] has been extremely impressed with the IAF and the professional manner in which the competition was conducted," Lockheed said.

Boeing also released a statement re-iterating the company's acceptance of the IAF decision, but also suggested the Super Hornet could be proposed again to New Dehli. "Should future requirements emerge to fulfill India's air power capabilities, we will be happy to discuss them," Boeing said.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

What if EF offsets the offsets with discount?
Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

high altitude engine test facility in India on the line of a Gromov.
That was via Boeing.
Do we have any idea what the M2K upgrades will get India? I would push for the IP for the hot section.
I mentioned the HA engine test facility (Offset for C-17 via Boeing) only to illustrate movement/investment on the engine development front... Regarding you wish of IT for hot sections...Thatathu
Which 4++ gen plane is available with India to acquire 50 #s?
Guessing: MiG-29s upgraded to MiG-35? 50 #s, easy. Spares? Cannot say.
Mig-35 is a paper plane which was vanished the minute it got dropped from the MMRCA race. If it were that great, or even existed, the bear would would have convinced IAF/MOD/GOI about what a great plane it is... a 5-- generation or something like it...
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

Shrinivasan wrote:..the bear would would have convinced IAF/MOD/GOI about what a great plane it is... a 5-- generation or something like it...
fault of chinese advancements, shall we say?
Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

SaiK wrote:What if EF offsets the offsets with discount?
anything is possible.. I am just saying "Rafale it is" based on some public domain info and Forum posters. I don't know If it is going to be EF2K or Rafale (alphabetically ordered)
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

It is interesting.. we have two types of chaiwalas spreading information.
Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

SaiK wrote:It is interesting.. we have two types of chaiwalas spreading information.
no Chaiwala/Paanwala info here...
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

alright chief.. produce those public domain info by links?
shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by shukla »

Talks over £7.2billion MMRCA deal could boost Lancashire workers
The Telegraph - UK
THOUSANDS of Lancashire jobs could be safeguarded for the next two decades if BAE succeeds in winning a £7.2billion deal. Defence bosses at arms giant, BAE Systems, moved a step closer to securing the military order from India at a special conference at the Royal International Air Tattoo show. As fighter jets thundered past at the military show in Gloucestershire, BAE chiefs were locked in talks with Indian government officials. The Asian country is speculating whether to place an initial order for 126 Eurofighter Typhoons, which are made by BAE Systems and European partners.

The aircraft is competing against France’s Dassault Rafale for the deal, with the result due to be announced soon. India could be persuaded by a ‘marinised’ version of Typhoon that could land on aircraft carriers. And that could also interest the Ministry of Defence, which has just axed its fleet of Harriers, which could land on naval vessels. The fuselage of the Typhoon are made at BAE Samlesbury, which employs around 1,000 people on the project, and the aircraft is assembled at Warton on the Fylde.

The company also supports hundreds of jobs at supplying companies across Lancashire. During a briefing at the show in RAF Fairford today, RAF commanders and BAE executives spoke of the Typhoon's 'advanced' and 'brilliant' capabilities. Indian defence ministry officials were shown footage of the fighter jet on recent operations in Libya, where it was seen to 'obliterate' enemy tanks. And newly-appointed Military Air and Information managing director, Chris Boardman, said the state-of-the-art plane was the solution to meet India’s future combat aircraft requirement. He said: “We need to win these contracts to help us to keep jobs in the North West for the next 20 years. “We are offering unique expertise and the best of the best when it comes to fighter jets.” Previously, the Indian government have bought 66 Hawk jets from the arms giant and have signed a contract for a further 66 planes. Martin Wright, of the Nelson-based North West Aerospace Alliance, said: “Any order for Typhoon eventually washes into the supply chain. “But it is a competition and it isn’t over yet. “From a supply point of view it would be very important though.”
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

SaiK wrote:What if EF offsets the offsets with discount?
If they discount the price; the offsets will still apply on the discounted price. No zero sum here.
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

From Shrinivasan
Mig-35 is a paper plane which was vanished the minute it got dropped from the MMRCA race. If it were that great, or even existed, the bear would would have convinced IAF/MOD/GOI about what a great plane it is... a 5-- generation or something like it...
I thought the Russian Air Force is going in for MiG35's?
It is now believed that the Russian Air Force, as part of a Kremlin-initiated bailout package for debt-ridden RAC-MiG, will place an order for 24 MiG-35s by 2012
from

http://russiadefence.englishboard.net/t ... the-mig-35

Can't believe that RuAF will order paper planes :eek:
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

do we have more information on what offsets(links) mean to MMRCA? lot have changed since RFP, including DPP.
Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

rajanb wrote:I thought the Russian Air Force is going in for MiG35's?
It is now believed that the Russian Air Force, as part of a Kremlin-initiated bailout package for debt-ridden RAC-MiG, will place an order for 24 MiG-35s by 2012
Can't believe that RuAF will order paper planes :eek:
The source you quoted is a blog post from Mar 2011 which quotes an article from 2009. Much water has flown under the bridge. The original article was after the euphoria faced by Mig-35 during AI-2009. How many air shows has RAC-Mig showcases Mig-35 since then? There is not going to be any Russian order for Mig-35.
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

^^ I know. That was why the :eek:
Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

rajanb wrote:^^ I know. That was why the :eek:
I SDRE onlee, the sarcasm was lost on me...
VishalJ
BRFite
Posts: 1033
Joined: 12 Feb 2009 06:40
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by VishalJ »

PHOTOS of the 2 Rafales which had made an Emergency landing in Malta on June 30th
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19327
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

Some of the comments are a little bit disturbing. I am not sure if this is par for the course:
Landed with his buddy .The day before, declared emergency due to fire in the cockpit.
Diverted to Malta at 0130LT due to one of this pair was badly damaged.
Wonder what was the damage.
Landed at 0130LT with another RafaleB as OUP828 after decalring emergency.One of the aircraft was badly damaged and the pilot was scared of fire on board.
FrAF needs to keep spares on Malta!!!! Or is France close enough? This comment for a CASA CN-235M-200 that just landed:
Came with spare parts for a Rafale which landed with emergency in early morning.
VishalJ
BRFite
Posts: 1033
Joined: 12 Feb 2009 06:40
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by VishalJ »

NRao wrote:Wonder what was the damage.
From what i read elsewhere:
"Two FAF Rafale B landed in Malta at 0130LT after declaring emergency.One of them was very badly damaged and the pilot was scared that he had fire onboard.The undamaged aircraft is seen departing here back to base.The other one departed late afternoon.A CN-235 was sent to Malta with technicians to repair the damaged rafale.This was the fifth time that pairs of French military aircraft needed to make an emergency landing because of technical or fuel problems."
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by devesh »

Shrinivasan wrote:
devesh wrote:if India gets to manufacture EADS's patented composites and materials tech, then that effectively means that we have a stake in the program. unless Rafale comes up with something similar, MoD top brass will pick EF (assuming that indigenous development is a top priority).
a Letter Of Intent has been signed, this means nothing about manufacturing in India. I don't have finger to count the number of MOUs Lockheed Martin and Boeing signed in the run-up to AI2011, all this is not worth the paper it is printed on now as both these companies are out of MMRCA. EF has pulled together these LOI hoping to get the MMRCA, Offset proposals have been submitted already so I wonder how this new LOI would help EF.
MOD secretaries are not going to be poring over newspapers and trade rags to lookup how many LOIs / MOUs these tow organizations have singed or thinking about signing.

The problem with EF is pretty simple, there are four countries which are manufacturing a plane together... with multiple factories/companies in these countries doing the work. There are suppliers in 11 other countries supplying parts to the EF consortium. Where does HAL fit in this manufacturing wheel.
How is EF going to meet its 33% (or is it 50%) OFFSET requirement to meet India requirement. I haven't seen any announcement addressing this. Just couple of days back, there was a news about Inviting Japan to join the EF Consortium... Is India also going to be invited like this? is that what MMRCA contract envisaged? only time will tell.

why are you comparing EF with Boeing and LM???? Boeing and LM are out. the competition is between EF and Dassault. the LOI's are surely part of the offsets program. the EF team probably submitted an offsets proposal based on these LOI's and agreements. and as far as I know, Boeing and LM never proposed anything where they would transfer patented technology to be manufactured in India.

once again, if India is given a partnership in the EF program, then a significant portion of manufacturing of Typhoon for all orders (not just our order) will be done in India. this is the key. and down the lane, I suspect that UK and Germany are making calculations to offload Spain and even Italy and bring in India. Spain has already become a basket case and English and Germans are most likely hoping to kick these basket cases out at the first opportunity. India gives them that opportunity. India has the money, the man power, and the resources to supplant both Spain and Italy. If India uses some chanakyan bania mentality, we have a golden opportunity here. we can effectively have a pie in EADS.

anyway, that is all speculation for now. the point is EF is offering to have their patented tech manufactured in India, and this almost certainly means that India will play a much bigger role than just a client. this is the kind of a deal that is prelude to much broader participation. the Euros are under no illusion. once they share patented composites tech with corporations in a country as vast and resourceful as India, somehow somewhere this will leak into local production lines for future projects. they are doing this, IMVVHO, to bring India in instead of keeping out and suffering in the future. better to bring us Yindus in now and share profits and keep making money. at least that way, they know they can get a share of the pie. otherwise, as opportunities in their countries dwindle down, they fortunes will go down the drain. the writing is on the wall.
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

Shrinivasan wrote:
rajanb wrote:^^ I know. That was why the :eek:
I SDRE onlee, the sarcasm was lost on me...
I am older than you. Therefore more SDRE than you and proud of it. :wink:
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

Vishal Jolapara wrote:
NRao wrote:Wonder what was the damage.
From what i read elsewhere:
"Two FAF Rafale B landed in Malta at 0130LT after declaring emergency.One of them was very badly damaged and the pilot was scared that he had fire onboard.The undamaged aircraft is seen departing here back to base.The other one departed late afternoon.A CN-235 was sent to Malta with technicians to repair the damaged rafale.This was the fifth time that pairs of French military aircraft needed to make an emergency landing because of technical or fuel problems."
Heard from a chaiwala. So FWIW.

During the trails, the french demoed the unbelievable speed with which they could turn the Rafale around. So was that proof of the pudding type situation in Malta?
Last edited by rajanb on 16 Jul 2011 20:25, edited 1 time in total.
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

Deveshji
once again, if India is given a partnership in the EF program, then a significant portion of manufacturing of Typhoon for all orders (not just our order) will be done in India.
Err.....how did you get to know this?
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by devesh »

it is an assumption based on what they're saying. if they are going to transfer patented tech for manufacturing the jet, I don't think they'll do it just for assembling the jet or just for Indian order. and there is no point in having multiple production lines doing the same thing in different countries. IF India is a partner in the program, not just a client, then this is the only possible explanation for sharing IP rights. it's an educated guess. all depends on the offsets. if indigenous development is a priority for MoD/IAF top brass, then EF, based on what I gather on open source, will be the victor.
VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3255
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by VinodTK »

Typhoon outdid Rafale in Libya, claims four-nation consortium
With just a fortnight left for the opening of commercial bids for the Indian military's biggest ever tender, four European nations — the U.K., Germany, Spain and Italy — bidding jointly for 126 fighter planes promised an open door technology transfer and emphasised the superiority of their Eurofighter Typhoon over its sole competitor, the French Rafale, during ongoing operations in Libya

“The technology transfer is very attractive,” said senior officers of the four-nation consortium while senior Royal Air Force officers, sidestepping the morality issue of bombing a sovereign country, claimed that the Typhoon has outperformed the Rafale in Libya.

Asked whether the source code — a bone of contention with the Americans who were knocked out of the competition earlier this year along with the Russians and the Swedish — would also be transferred, they said, “everything is on the table.''
:
:
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Philip »

Sri,M2Ks were used in Krgil because we had only then to use .The MIG-29s were original versions meant mainly for air superiority.For the price of the upgrades we could've bought a few dozen new Gripens even if no one wanted the "paper plane" ,the MIG-35 which performed at an Aero-India and was evaluated by the IAF! I still maintain that the M2K upgrades are a massive waste of money,which could've been better spent on new aircraft or used for other vital aerospace projects.

Even the two shortlisted aircraft will come in at very expensive prices.We've debated before that it might've been wiser to have bought the cheapest of the lot of western aircraft in the contest (Gripen),accelerated development and ordered more LCA MK-2s and more SU-30MKIs,while using the money saved into the FGFA and AMCA projects.What one must keep in mind is that both the French and the EP consortium (UK) have been accused of massive kickbacks in their sales to clients,the UK esp. with their Saudi contract which has been swept under the carpet.

It is going to be very interesting to se who can deliver aircraft on time and to the full specs required by the IAF.I still feel that by 2017,we will have the first sqd. of FGFAs entering service,improved MKIs with Brahmos etc.,in service already and hopefully a couple of sqds of LCA MK-2s as well.
shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by shukla »

European consortium EADS Cassidian wants India to be 'full participant' in Eurofighter Typhoon project
Economic Times
With India close to deciding the winner of its $10.4-billion tender for 126 combat jets, the four-nation European consortium EADS Cassidian has raised the pitch for its bid by offering New Delhi "full participant" status in its Eurofighter Typhoon programme.

Germany, Italy, Spain and United Kingdom, who partner the development and production of the Eurofighter Typhoon, are also willing to put "everything on the table" under the technology transfer commitments if they win the contract to supply these aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF).

"We are offering to India to become full participant in the Typhoon in its future development and I am making this offer on behalf of all the four existing partners," Peter Maute, senior vice president of Cassidian Air Systems, told a group of visiting Indian journalists at the Royal International Air Tattoo here.

Maute made this offer, saying it "is not limited to production and being part of the Typhoon global supply chain, but also be a partner in future developments for the aircraft."

Under this arrangement, the four Eurofighter partner companies will bring to the Indian defence industry, both private and public, and the research and development organisations a customised technological road-map.

They are committing themselves to transfer unprecedented level of sensitive technology and expertise not just in manufacturing, but also in design, development, and engineering, which are crucial to sustaining a self-reliant defence industry, a major focus of the Indian defence ministry
.

Allaying Indian fears of technology denials and sanctions, as experienced after its 1998 nuclear tests, Maute said the four partner nations were "quite serious about a long-term, stable strategic relations" with India and that it has had a history of reliable partnership.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19327
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by NRao »

They are committing themselves to transfer unprecedented level of sensitive technology and expertise not just in manufacturing, but also in design, development, and engineering, which are crucial to sustaining a self-reliant defence industry, a major focus of the Indian defence ministry.
Does that translate to IP? If so, about what % could we tack on to it? (Just curious.)
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

may be they are saying, come join our rich family.. see our expensive programs and compare, and judge how really we must be spending.


otoh, it is a good offer.
mallikarjun
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 22
Joined: 24 Jun 2011 14:32

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by mallikarjun »

Typhoon rehearsing with full wepon load for RIAT2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-fv_57e ... re=related

Rafale rehearses with only two side winders for RIAT2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7vCgKqD ... re=related
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

aah! the power of typhoon engines there.. awesome.

--
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 233653.ece
“everything is on the table.''

“There is very strong will to transfer all possible technology,”

“we are denying ground to Gaddafi's forces; people are being protected and there are few civilian casualties.”

“Our strategic vision is to work in partnership with the Indian industry, to develop and manufacture in India, to meet the requirements of the Indian security forces. This is directly in line with the Indian government's policy to increase self-sufficiency in the defence and security technology/industry,”

Defence Minister A.K. Antony has repeatedly said merits of the plane rather than geo-political considerations would be the prime consideration. The coming days will see India being tested as the two sides step up pressure for what is said to be the mother of all defence deals as far as India is concerned.
nitinr
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 89
Joined: 10 Aug 2008 17:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by nitinr »

Why are we comparing the cost of upgrading M2K with buying new aircrafts. This 4B$ contains some 500M$ for the infrastructure upgrade, that is when we have been operating these jets for long.
What will be the cost for same when a new plane (Gripen / F16) is bought?
Also as someone suggested go for more SU30, the life cycle cost will be high in comparison to M2K. All this will be figuring the minds of IAF planners. Its not an easy +/- equation.
mallikarjun
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 22
Joined: 24 Jun 2011 14:32

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by mallikarjun »

Typhoon rehearsing with full wepon load for RIAT2011 full length video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ENnEQkh ... re=related
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

^^awesome.. very good. those turn rates and handling with full weapons load must impress IAF. I did see smoke trails after afterburner.


--
nitinr wrote:Why are we comparing the cost of upgrading M2K with buying new aircrafts. This 4B$ contains some 500M$ for the infrastructure upgrade, that is when we have been operating these jets for long.
What will be the cost for same when a new plane (Gripen / F16) is bought?
Also as someone suggested go for more SU30, the life cycle cost will be high in comparison to M2K. All this will be figuring the minds of IAF planners. Its not an easy +/- equation.
few points-
1. for calculating if the upgrade program is worth the money, or acquire newer platforms. Remember the life of new a/c is 40+ years per plan.

2. If upgrade costs more than 50% of original value or 30% of current value, or somewhere there, then it is a normal project and budget management thought about costs.

Now, does not that sound an easy equation? old x + patch y for total 50 years < new z for 50 years, where z is more advanced and next generation or++.
andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1677
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by andy B »

Hiten Thanks for that link impressive performance indeed by the Tiffy this things more manic than a monkey in a mango tree....

I can only imagine how responsive it must be when loaded with just aams something to watch out indeed.

SaiK look closely at the video the occasional smoke puffs and trails that you see are I believe when the pilot is disengaging or just about to engage the afterburner I don't think its anything to be worried about. It may very well just be the first lot of fuel being pumped in that may just have a bit of unburnt fuel hence the little puff and smoke.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

sure, it could also mean lesser oxygen as well.
andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1677
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by andy B »

SaiK wrote:sure, it could also mean lesser oxygen as well.
SaiK wrote:sure, it could also mean lesser oxygen as well.
less oxygen in what way saar? do u mean less oxygen in the comb. chamber itself?

My understanding is that its mostly being caused by the first and last amount of extra fuel that would be pouring in the aft section when the afterburner is being engaged and disengaged which may be causing it to be partially burnt and hence the black smoke. what say?
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

I was thinking more on the aft section, rather comb where it looks like clean burn. The air there is already hot, with reduced o2., and perhaps something (additional inlet) did not open up at the right time?

May be I am wrong here.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Philip »

One must point out that in all recent conflicts including Libya,western aircraft have faced precious little htreat from anti-air defences ,which in the Indian context,with Pak and China,both nations possess a multi-layered anti-air system ,that can engage aircratf at any altitude including a very large number of MANPADS.The loss of several Tornados in the Iraq wars, GW1 and 2 ,when the aircraft were hot down flying low,indicate that with a more seasoned opponent,the attrition rate for such expensive aircraft will be much higher.Is there any more info about the "wounded" Rafales landing in Malta?

Here,an SU-30MKI armed with a 300km stand-of missile like Brahmos, easily has the advantage over either the Typhoon or Rafale when attacking high-value heavily defended targets.In addition,we have in service several Russian supersonic shortter-range ASMs,of the KH series.What equivalent missiles will be forthcoming with either Rafale or the EF? In recent times,the UN even had secret trials with turbo-prop aircraft (Super Tucanos) for special ops CAS,finding it a far less expensive option than using v.expensive strike fighters in mny ops.It supposedly met/exceeded all parameters but lack of follow on funding killed the project,perhaps bcause it involved a non-US aircraft! This is one area where the IAF should seriously study,using turbo-prop aircraft for CAS.Since the Pilatus has been selected for the large basic trainer req.,it shoul also study an armed version for CAS too.
Post Reply