Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jul 2011 13:02

Singha wrote:they seldom test after 3pm, that too on a sunday. so if it doesnt happen in next 2 hrs wont happen today.

Singha, test might have happened, maybe there is a delay in announcing the results...

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 17 Jul 2011 13:11

Shiv Aroor confirms the test has been postponed to next week. http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/07/pr ... um=twitter

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 17 Jul 2011 14:32

Prahaar Test Postponed - LiveFist

The test of India's new tactical missile Prahaar, scheduled for today, has been postponed to later this week for unspecified reasons...

So we have to wait longer to see this missile

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 17 Jul 2011 15:14

There is a low pressure depression on Odissa coast, hence lots of rain and thunder. Maybe this inclement weather has caused a postponement.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 17 Jul 2011 16:11

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 17 Jul 2011 16:14

US, Israeli firms in race for supplying bunker-busters to IAF

...
The IAF plans to induct more than 100 bunker-buster LGBs that will be equipped on its fighter aircraft fleet to destroy strongly fortified enemy targets, sources told PTI here.

They said the IAF had issued a global Request for Proposal (RFP) for the purpose earlier this year, and defence majors including American Lockheed Martin and Raytheon along with an Israeli missile manufacturer have submitted their bids for the tender.
...

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 17 Jul 2011 16:39

rohitvats wrote:Another piece of a**-whipping being dished out to our dear freind at trishul blogspot:

Colonel JitendraVyas said...

Mr Prasun,

In your first comment you mentioned that the accuracy of SS-150 is dismissal and the system is cumbersome and so on.

Me being witnessed a trial launch,I assure you that the accuracy of the system has been brought down to 4-6mts.Other than the system being a liquid fueled,its still our best choice to take down the enemy targets with a wide variety of targets.Been using the system fora long time and having tested it multiple times,I will place my bet on using this one. All the inventory of 150`s which are ofcourse a huge number running into a number of hundreds has to be expelled to make room for new inventories.
On the other hand you cant compare a system like prithvi to any other contemporary one. Prithvi lies in an entirely different block. IF accuracy is one factor, then its anti-ABM is another factor.

Having been sitting on a huge pile of prithvi inventory, every new technology that goes into the next gen long range missiles is being tested on prithvis first.Before the anti-boost phase ABM system was put onto A-III its been tested on Prithvis. Just like all other INS and warhead detonation mechanisms and so on.
We just have to accept that with no prithvi, there is no further development of missile technology in India.

And regarding your unresearched comment of Prahaar,that its an indigenised LORA, you are completely wrong at it again. It is a spin-off AAD.While LORA is a quasi ballistic missile, Prahaar is not.

My sinciere advice is that, next time when you have to post, do research on it.Just dont post whatever pops in your mind
The response from our dear freind as usual was frothing at mount and name calling...no objective replies. So much for being a defence reporter.

Very interesting article by Col Jitendra Vyas.

We have often wondered why we keep testing Prithvi again and again. So now we know that each Prithivi fired is a testing a new product or a concept. I think Prithvi's major constraint is its liquid fuel jet engine.

One wild question, can we replace Prithvi's liquid engine with a simlar solid fuel fired engine WITHOUT any other change in guidance or warhead or xshdfdfk ?

Experts please voice your opinion

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 17 Jul 2011 16:43

Kakarat wrote:Prahaar Test Postponed - LiveFist

The test of India's new tactical missile Prahaar, scheduled for today, has been postponed to later this week for unspecified reasons...
So we have to wait longer to see this missile

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 17 Jul 2011 17:48

newbie question: What type of a missile is Prahaar? Cruise? Ballistic? Did not find a clear answer. Thanks.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 17 Jul 2011 18:04

Update: Prahaar Test Postponed - LiveFist

[@1722HRS]: The Prahaar test-firing is scheduled for tomorrow morning, weather permitting.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jul 2011 22:01

ShauryaT wrote:newbie question: What type of a missile is Prahaar? Cruise? Ballistic? Did not find a clear answer. Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahaar_%28missile%29

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 17 Jul 2011 23:03

Thanks NRao.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jul 2011 09:18

IMO, the three stage thing is a incorrect....150kms missile with three stages?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Jul 2011 09:35

Most likely DDM........

Simple google test reveals that all the weapons of this class are single stage only........

But we can never be sure, unless the test happnes and we as provided detailed informaton about the missile by the official sources.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 09:45

rohitvats wrote:IMO, the three stage thing is a incorrect....150kms missile with three stages?

INHO, the three stages probably meant booster (discarded after attaining ballistic trajectory), main missile body and warhead. There might also be some maneuvering capability for the warhead as Shri Sarasvat mentioned that it would be difficult to track unlike a single stage missile like Prithvi. or it could just be DDM. Most hacks had the same or similar text, so it might be from a media handout provided by DRDO and hence there could be some truth to it.
People who might have got the news from the horses mouth might know better!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jul 2011 10:11

Sorry but stages have a specific meaning and sections have specific meaning which are not interchangeable.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2011 10:16

cloudy in orissa coast today, with thunderstorms forecast for next 4 days.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jul 2011 10:20

Guys, in 10 mins, I am posting something on Prahar. Some doubts will be cleared.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 10:25

ramana wrote:Sorry but stages have a specific meaning and sections have specific meaning which are not interchangeable.

These mean a lot to us... we all understand that they are no interchangeable... do you expect DDM to understand that? I wouldn't. I'll be happy if they got the range correctly... There is still much confusion about whether Prahaar is a MBRL or a Ballistic Missile (we all know it is a SRBM).
The Jury is still out on whether Prahaar will replace SMERCH or Prithvi-1. my take is, neither. SMERCH would continue to be in the Artillery divisions for couple more years, eventually it would be replaced by Pinaka-II (214mm, longer Range, higher yield explosives) or Pinaka-III (TBD - my guess is build over P-II into a 300mm variant like SMERCH).

Prithvi-I would soldier on to be eventually replaced by Prithvi-III and/or other SR Cruise missiles.
Does anyone know what happened to the 250KM range IA specific Prithvi II?
Is Prithvi-III IAF specific or does IA/SFC also uses it?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 10:27

chackojoseph wrote:Guys, in 10 mins, I am posting something on Prahar. Some doubts will be cleared.

thanks CJ... was emailing you about any update of Prahaar!!!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jul 2011 10:30

"Barak 8" versus "Yakhont"

Israel's defense establishment is concerned about Russia's decision to supply Syria with "Yakhont" anti-ship missiles that can hit a target at ranges of hundreds of kilometers while traveling at a speed greater than Mach 2. Israel has not been idle: the "Barak 8" missile is being developed in a huge arms deal with India

The Israeli defense establishment is increasingly disturbed over Russia's decision to supply the Syrian army with the "Yakhont" – a supersonic, shore-to-ship cruise missile (known in the West as P-800 Oniks). To counter this threat, Israeli missile boats will soon be equipped with "Barak 8" anti-missile missiles - the advanced version of "Barak 1". Israel's defense industries are developing a similar version for the Indian navy, even as other Indian defense industries work with Russia on a local version of the "Yakhont".

Published accounts of Russia's intention to sell the "Yakhont" to Syria, first appeared in 2009. The following year Russia officially announced its decision to go through with the deal, in spite of Israel's political efforts to block it. Israeli security officials have recently informed IsraelDefense that the missile deal appears cut-and-dried. According to Israeli estimates, despite Russia's interest in maintaining good relations with the West, and its 2010 decision to procure UAVs and technology transfer from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) (estimated at over $400 million), the sale of advanced weapons to Syria, defined as "defensive armaments", is important to Russia for economic reasons and retaining its regional status.

"Yakhont" poses a veritable nightmare for the Israeli navy given its offensive capability which is a giant leap ahead of present-day shore-to-ship missiles in the region. The new missile can hit a vessel 300 kilometers from the shore with a powerful warhead packed with a 200 kilogram load of explosives. This means that Israeli ships will be under almost permanent threat from the "Yakhont" (which will probably be delivered, with Israel's knowledge, to Hezbollah).

The "Yakhont's" specs make it extremely difficult to intercept since it's a "sea skimming" missile: fifteen kilometers from the target it drops to an altitude of ten meters above the water, making it practically impossible for radar to detect. The missile cruises at a truly incredible velocity - more than twice the speed of sound (Mach two), and its radar homing device is built in such a way that electro-optic defense systems are all but at a loss "to lock" onto it once it's in flight. The Indian version of the missile, called "BrahMos", is already in an advanced stage of development.

Israel's "Barak 8" defense system for protection against shore-to-ship missiles began in 2000 as a joint project of the navy, IAI, Rafael, and the Defense Ministry’s Research and Development Authority (MAFAT). The system is planned to replace "Barak 1" missiles that have been operational for some time. The new system, "Barak 8", is designed to protect not only missile boats but also warship groups engaged in joint operations in a given area. The goal is to cover the entire group with circumferential protection by sending data from the vessels' radar systems to a command and control (C2) system, and coordinating the data between the vessels in order to create a composite picture of the battle and impending threats. The moment a threat is detected, the system issues a fire order to each of the systems mounted on the ships' decks according to their expediency for neutralizing the threat.

"Barak 8" consists of an advanced C2 system developed by the IAI's Mabat (space systems and technologies) that integrates task management to of a single fire-control system or simultaneous fire control by a number of units. Based on STAR-MF-LB-type radar (EL/M- 2084) developed by Elta Systems Ltd, "Barak 8" displays a semicircular numerical image at a 360 degree angle above the ship or layout of ships. It excels in high resolution and is capable of detecting missiles with very low radar signature.

The installment of the defense system on Israeli navy "Sa’ar 5" missile boats is designated to begin next year alongside the older "Barak 1" systems.

"Barak 8" is a single-stage missile with fixed stabilizers in its lower section and flight control surfaces in its nose. It's mounted in vertically fixed, cylindrical launch canisters below the ship's deck. During target engagement, the missile is vertically launched and immediately enters in flight horizontal position in order to hit and destroy the target, all the while receiving navigational updates from the vessel's guidance system. When the target enters the range of the independent detection systems, the missile zeroes in and destroys the target.

"Barak 8" has a sophisticated seeker designed to intercept low-flying aircraft and sea-skimming missiles in any type of weather.

Developed for the Israeli navy, has been adapted for India's naval needs. The project's development and production, and integration into the Indian navy, in the deal signed in 2009, is considered one of the largest projects in the history of Israel's defense industries. The scope of the transaction is in the billions of dollars. The Indian version of the missile is also designed to be shore launched, thus protecting the subcontinent from sea and air threats.

Management of the project required the establishment of the new "Air Defense Plant", a subsidiary of IAI, in late 2009.Testing "Barak 8's" systems began in 2007. It is currently being tested on "Sa'ar 5"-class corvettes and will become operational in 2011. Next year the system will be installed on Indian ships and in static shore bases.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jul 2011 10:31

Shrinivasan wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Guys, in 10 mins, I am posting something on Prahar. Some doubts will be cleared.
thanks CJ... was emailing you about any update of Prahaar!!!

Since you have registered for Frontier India Defence section alerts, you will receive it faster than others

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 10:43

Hindu has got an update on Prahaar...
Flight-test of Prahaar missile likely on July 21
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 236245.ece

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 10:49

Prahaar Missile as described by Hindu - fairly comprehensive description.

Prahaar is a newly-developed quick reaction, short range tactical missile.
Prahaar is a 150-km range missile will the bridge gap between Pinaka,
Prahaar is a road mobile system and could be deployed in a few minutes time, without much preparation.
Prahaar's road mobile launcher can carry six missiles.
Prahaar can be used for taking out both tactical and strategic targets.
Prahaar is a cost-effective and a highly accurate missile.

Njoy the show...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jul 2011 11:09

India likely to test Prahaar Missile this week

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 11:14

chackojoseph wrote:India likely to test Prahaar Missile this week

Thanks CJ, read your article in FI, but refrained from posting it here and stealing your thunder... thanks for the update.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jul 2011 11:20

Shrinivasan wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:India likely to test Prahaar Missile this week
Thanks CJ, read your article in FI, but refrained from posting it here and stealing your thunder... thanks for the update.

You are allowed to post links and upto 30 words as per the fair use. There is not restrictions on linking and discussions. OT, We have a legal tiff with a Pakistani forum (which has indian forum, turkish forum etc.) They were thrown out of their current hosting and have moved to a new hosting and have again resorted to copying text. So, apologies for the inconvience. The news is collected for Indian readers.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 11:26

chackojoseph wrote:...You are allowed to post links and upto 30 words as per the fair use. There is not restrictions on linking and discussions. OT, We have a legal tiff with a Pakistani forum (which has indian forum, turkish forum etc.) They were thrown out of their current hosting and have moved to a new hosting and have again resorted to copying text. So, apologies for the inconvience. The news is collected for Indian readers.

I was not talking about the technological limitations, but more the ethics of it and above all the credit for posting to news to the Rakshaks should go to you the author... Keep up the good work...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jul 2011 11:37

Shrinivasan wrote:I was not talking about the technological limitations, but more the ethics of it and above all the credit for posting to news to the Rakshaks should go to you the author

Please post links. it will reduce my workload.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 11:40

chackojoseph wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:I was not talking about the technological limitations, but more the ethics of it and above all the credit for posting to news to the Rakshaks should go to you the author
Please post links. it will reduce my workload.

sure will do...

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Jul 2011 12:52

Austin wrote:"Barak 8" versus "Yakhont"

These specifications seem to be of Barak-2 or 8 or Barak-ER etc etc "with Booster". That is why the weight is 1350kg instead of only 276kg. I think that this missile will also be used as Area Defence Missile by IN and IAF. The range seem to be understated that should be around 150km

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 18 Jul 2011 16:01

Wanted to check - what is the planned number of Pinakas for the Army? I believe, current order stands at 80. We need 80 x n number of Pinakas - 80 is simply a very puny number. Number of Grads itself is 150+.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jul 2011 16:42

^^^Please remember that the 'present' number generally refers to quantity to be purchased/inducted with-in a particular defence plan period. For example, in the current defense plan (2007-2012), four regiments of Pinaka were/are to be inducted. Two are up and running and I think the other two are WIP or in pipeline. The next lot of orders/inductions will happen in next (2013-2017) plan period. Also, with Pinaka (or any other system) itself slated for improvements - and if these improvements cannot be retroactively fitted to earlier systems - the intial induction lot is likely to be smaller.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 18 Jul 2011 16:58

In that case, would anyone have an idea/can speculate how many Pinakas are planned to be inducted eventually? For that matter, how many MLRS of this category are planned till the period 2020. Links or any other sources would help, if possible.

We should have there in hundreds to boost the firepower for area saturation attacks.
As usual JMT.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2011 17:48

the general mode of op of US armour advances in Iraq seemed to be first locate any concentraion of iraqi armour/infantry, then pound them with a mix of MLRS/SP/Towed, then move at night through these shattered lines in mechanised columns, picking off any remnants, then rest/repair for a few hrs before resuming the next advance under the usual hailstorm of artillery fire/CAS sorties.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2011 17:57

singha ji, look up op thunder run, there are a number of good long articles on the net.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jul 2011 19:13

^^^There is a reason Artillery is called 'God of War'.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2011 20:32

with that in mind, our holdings of MLRS (grad , pinaka, smerch) looks pretty inadequate to me. I know smerch is quite expensive being a imported system but we should be able to make a cloned grad and pinaka locally in large nos using one of the new pvt defence players if OFB wants to focus on other things and lacks capacity.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Jul 2011 20:44

rohitvats wrote:^^^That actually makes lot of sense.

I have always wondered about all his articles being jargon heavy and tendecny to refer to lot of tangential, and many a times unrelated, stuff. It seems he wants to show that he has 'expert' level understanding of the subject matter, to obfuscate the short-comings and IMO, these are targeted more at foreign readers. It seems by using all these jargons and mumbo-jumbo, he somehow wants to gain credibility and importance -the final word on all things Indian defence. But the problem, for him, is that many a well informed people look through the charade. Example of the same is the comment by ex-IA person which I posted above. Of the hundered things he says, IMO, he has accuracy of 40%-50%. He is actually looking desperately for some sort of respect...but alas, there are many a party poopers for him!!!

His articles typified with heavy jargon may tell the type of audience he seeks for his writing. As you mentioned, his pieces are poorly structured and paid little attention to organizing them so it appears often unrelated with lot of tangential. Maybe he should spend more time in organizing is articles for better. On the positive side, he provides you lot of information to deal with.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Jul 2011 21:48

Kersi D wrote: Very interesting article by Col Jitendra Vyas.

We have often wondered why we keep testing Prithvi again and again. So now we know that each Prithivi fired is a testing a new product or a concept. I think Prithvi's major constraint is its liquid fuel jet engine.

Yes, you can say that. You can easily find corroborating evidence to back that up. Even first Agni missile tested is based on Prithvi. There was even official confirmation regarding this, if I'm not wrong. Before Prithvi it was Trishul which donned that hat. Every system has its own Pros and Cons. Liquid engine has it own uniqueness. Monstrous and most feared Satan (SS-18) is liquid fueled. To pull out an example, Prithvi becoz of its liquid fuel system snugly fitted in the role of Anti ballistic missile. To paraphrase Saraswat's statement, Prithvi was chosen for the ABM role becoz of deep understanding in that system. You see..

One wild question, can we replace Prithvi's liquid engine with a simlar solid fuel fired engine WITHOUT any other change in guidance or warhead or xshdfdfk ?

Experts please voice your opinion

K

While you are expecting expert's opinion, to my understanding, I think the answer to your question is no.