The Red Menace

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 19 Jul 2011 04:42

In fact the court mentioned a scenario that is precisely what happened to the poor SPO's parents, in its orders..

In an insurgency scenario, the underground targeting family members of the police/law enforcement is hardly new...There was a phase in Punjab when it happened in a widespread fashion...It was tackled through a mix of different measures...

Aah. So the honorable court had the SPO's families best interests in mind, then? Then why not direct the state to absorb all the SPOs into a formal para-militia force and order that their families be given security preferably outside the conflict zone? Instead, the Hon. court's concern seems to have manifestered in an order to disarm the SPOs only with zero mention of security to families.

For forces operating in insurgency areas, there are various ways of "safeguarding" family...In Punjab, close families were often relocated outside their home districts...In some cases, the local police adopted a "hostage for hostage" strategy, ie, if any family member of a policeman was touched, the family of the local insurgent would get into "trouble"...Above all, in villages and districts across India, there is a certain amount of "fear" for the uniform, and the families are largely left untouched...Which is why we havent had too many cases of families of even JAK LI soldiers, or JK police being molested...

No such infrastructure/"social izzat" is available to the SJ/Koya commando - they are "identified" as an "enemy" by the Maoists, and dont have access to any of the "protection" that a proper uniformed soldier has access to...

Well, then the court should've made it mandatory for such protection to be offered to the SPO's families rather than render them sure-shot sitting ducks only. Trying to defend court's decisions even when they're turning out to be indirectly helping the maoist advance ever wider and deeper is strange only. Unless its a function of unusual comprehension only. Aaah, time we accept our puny ordinary comprehensions cannot see what isn't there only. Again.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Jul 2011 06:50

prahaar ji,
if the rashtra tolerates for long an armed movement that targets the movement's opponents for liquidation, if the self-proclaimed highest order sublime brains leading one of the pontificating wings of the rashtra [which is also trying to be the ideological mouthpiece of the rashtra] - comes to ideological justification of such movements only, rashtryia political leadership - gov- so-called civil society or "intelligentsia" tries to similarly justify such movements, we have reasons to suspect the motivations of the rashtra in doing so.

When we see a matching support from the movement in choosing their targets selectively, and never target certain religions, certian religious leaders, and one particular "national party" - as well as adopt methods of coercion that have uncanny resemblance to rashtryia techniques of coercion, as well as specific religious practices - our suspicions get even stronger.

When the self-proclaimed sublime brains at the helm of the rashtra also openly express their fear that "arms in the hands of the people" may make the people "turn against the rashtra" which however at the same time does not question the presence of "arms" in the hands of the "movement" it shows that the rashtra is keenly aware of the role of "violence" in maintaining the power of the rashtra. But the rashtra is also then making use of "selective" violence - it allows violence of certain types against certain specific targets. By carefully looking at the nature of those targets it becomes clear that the rashtra virtually protects those specific violences from sources - that otherwise would be politically costly for the rashtra to directly suppress violently.

Punishing "tribals" who have gone against the Kongshaal, directly through state-sponsored violence - is politically costly for the rashtra. Hence there is the need to provide protection - directly or indirectly - to Maoists. The sublime brains have given a memorable Freudian slip - that will haunt them forever. But they have exposed the fundamental thinking of the rashtra. This sort of rashtra-lootere-dacait-bad-gentry-goon-intelligentsia nexus gets exposed through such cases when the rashtra or its eminent brains "take sides". The Chattisgarhi "tribals" are realizing it first hand. That Maoists are taking sides and various sections of eminent rashtryia personalities and wings are taking Maoist sides - are all quite plain before the "tribals".

The urban dhimmi lives in a pretentious cocoon of self-reinforcing propaganda, almost completely out of touch with the "battlefield". Hence urban dhimmis are always caught out like deer in carheadlight. These exposures on the reality of the "battlefield" have deep political effects, it disjuncts the "people" on spot from the rashtra.

Maoists in areas where they are rampaging, and the two other foreign ideologies where they are respectively rampaging are actually having political impact that the urban dhimmi self-delusion fails to catch on to. Have to think on whether more should be stated.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 19 Jul 2011 07:18

Hari Seldon wrote:Aah. So the honorable court had the SPO's families best interests in mind, then? Then why not direct the state to absorb all the SPOs into a formal para-militia force and order that their families be given security preferably outside the conflict zone? Instead, the Hon. court's concern seems to have manifestered in an order to disarm the SPOs only with zero mention of security to families

Did you go through the judgement? Or is the opinion formed only on the basis of newspaper reports? the order has specific references to the fact that a sophisticated security machinery is required to tackle an insurgency of the type that C'garh is facing..

How is arming or disarming of the SPO related to "vengeance action" against his relations in a far-away village? Were the unforunate parents of this SPO targeted because this particular individual doesnt wield a gun anymore to go after the assailants? Does the SPO, posted in another place (most likely as part of a CI patrol) even have the bandwidth to go after a bunch of Maoists? Or were his parents targeted simply because what he was (and what he "did")? World over, local sources of humint are jealously and zealously protected through anonymity...In Punjab, ex-militants working for the police(thkink they were known as CATS) had their identities kept closely under wraps...In C'garh, a bunch of people have been publicly hired, given perfunctory training, and packed off to fight Maoists in distant areas (and not to protect their own villages, as home and heart defence)...Without the protection of a "uniformed" institution, it was almost "inviting" retribution..

Hari Seldon wrote:Well, then the court should've made it mandatory for such protection to be offered to the SPO's families rather than render them sure-shot sitting ducks only.

I actualy agree with this...Regardless of whether the SPOs and armed or not, their security (and that of their relations) is something that needs to be taken care of...Obviously, the C'garh govt thinks that handing over a gun is "proection" enough, doesnt matter if the gun-wielder is miles away from home...At least the Court should have directed the govt to do something about it...

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 19 Jul 2011 07:40

^^^
it is interesting you point to C'garh govt not doing enough. after SC effectively neuters any form of self defense, it is very convenient, indeed, to blame the scape goats. "giving them a gun," as you put it, was working just fine, until the enlightened SC decided to take away that protection.

are maoists living in a cocoon??? you question the relation between the SPO's family's killing and the SC's verdict.....has it occurred to you that SC verdict might have emboldened the Maoists to take such steps???

and you continue to give sermonizing lectures on the "professionality" of SJ. once again, if you care so much for the organization's ability to protect itself, why not give some ideas. oh, but of course, now that they can't fight back anymore, it's OK to pose as if you care for them b/c it's game over anyway.

and please save us the patronizing lectures about the "poor SPO's family." your contempt and disdain for SJ and self defense against violent criminals was very well expressed. and now, in a show of utter shamelessness and gleeful hand-rubbing, you are pouring salt on wounds that are a result of people with a similar ideology as yours.

this is totally disgusting. showing a mournful face but internally satisfied that the "illiterate" "villagers" were shown their rightful place.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 19 Jul 2011 08:22

devesh wrote:are maoists living in a cocoon??? you question the relation between the SPO's family's killing and the SC's verdict.....has it occurred to you that SC verdict might have emboldened the Maoists to take such steps???

And do you think that this was the first time Maoists were going after SJ families? It has been one of the principal reasons quoted by people opposing the concept..

Here is SATP's C'garh assessment for 2010..
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... isgarh.htm

The ICM Database indicates increasing Maoist action against civilians, though this is still to approach the peak of 189 civilian fatalities in 2006, largely the consequence of the disastrous Salwa Judum experiment. Nevertheless, the figure had gradually declined to 35 in 2008, to spurt up to at least 87 in 2009. One of the principal reasons for this is that the Maoists are increasingly convinced that civilians are acting as Police informers

"Police informers", or low level humint sources, are not a matter of public info - but SJ is...And they are taken in as nothing more than "police informers" by the Maoists...

Of course, this comes from SATP - headed by a DU grad (for some reason now that is a badge of "dishonour"!)...

What should the C'garh govt do? Organise VDCs the way it is supposed to be..Home and hearth units that protect villages that they live in..Simultaeneously, raise capacities - policing and development...C'garh has no major debt issue, its fisc is in good shape (by Indian standards), and half its districts are covered under the IAP with special Central IAP grants (which remain unutilised to the extent of 50%!)...Its not a resources issue, its an execution issue...

SJ is a legacy, they are there- and their health and safety needs to be ensured in some manner...Maybe reorg-ing them as VDCs for a start?

In short, ideological fulminations are not a substitute for action on the ground - invectives even less so...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Jul 2011 08:35

that 50% you are shouting from the roof tops is a mearge 21 crores.

whereas the state had increased police budget by 22% in 2008-09, to 950 crores, i.e. the increase is by ~200 crores.
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?263768

Should tell you a LOT

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 19 Jul 2011 08:38

Virupaksha wrote:that 50% is a mearge 21 crores.

That is not right - presumably you are referring to the 42 crores of the "police modernisation" budget - that has (according to the report) not been taken up at all..

Refer to the ET report on utilisation of IAP funds - the flagship central funding programme for naxal-affected districts - the funding's very large for that, C'garh's utilisation is 50%...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Jul 2011 08:44

the iap is DEVELOPMENT funds and it totally bypasses the state govts through direct disbursal to the district. Those funds are NOT for the police.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... tral-funds

A key initiative piloted by Home Minister PChidambaram and cleared by the Union Cabinet after most ministers had opposed it as a subversion of the Panchayati Raj system.....

The Integrated Action Plan (IAP) -- under which the Centre has directly released Rs 1,500 crore to affected districts and left it to the discretion of a district-level committee comprising the collector, SP and district forest officer to earmark the development and infrastructure projects on which they are spent

An analysis of the data on types of works and projects taken up in 60 districts under IAP scheme shows that the maximum funding went into provision of drinking water and drainage (10445 works), setting up of school buildings (10630) and anganwadi centers (9757) and electric lighting (10210). Other priority areas were construction of roads (6083 projects) and health facilities (2047).

i.e. it totally by passes the state govt and the non-usage of those funds actually how much the kongshaal through PC and home ministry actually wants to target the reds in chattisgarh, note all the three in the committee are IAS, IPS and IFS cadre respectively, which are only half administratively under the state government, while the rest under PC himself, the home minister.

and how were the districts selected for this iap? on the basis of left wing extremism, dream on.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110121/j ... 473552.jsp

Twelve districts that face no apparent Maoist threat have recently been added to the list of those worst affected by the rebels, officials said.

They hinted that powerful politicians with influence in these 12 districts were eyeing a share of the development funds earmarked for the Red zones.

Of the 12 districts, at least eight fall within the Lok Sabha constituencies of Congress MPs. Seven of the districts are in Madhya Pradesh and were apparently included under pressure from an influential MP from the state. Four are in Orissa and one in Chhattisgarh.

For some more "commentary" though not the alight ischools of DU, read on
http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/20 ... fect-mess/

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 19 Jul 2011 08:55

Somnathji: A switch to VDC method would be like a last resort - a hedgehog defence in military parlance. But security forces still have a lot of initiative in Mao-infested lands - enough to do a fluid offensive defence. That's where SPOs played such a crucial role.

Now the Hon SC in it's own judgement expressed doubts on "how" it's judgement can be implemented. I think there should be a judicial review. Jurisprudence should take into account that trying to enforce a judgement can cause a chain of events to be initiated which will create conditions that dismantle the very rule of law the Hon SC wants to uphold.

It'll be interesting how executive side-steps this legal shackle. From previous discussions, there are enough options open. It's a matter of will now.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Jul 2011 09:02

and what the e-light iscool nirvana, the planning commission think about it

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/snubb ... a/736318/0

“Indeed, the Honourable Home Minister, among others, has often correctly observed that more money down the same leaky pipes without reform will not serve any useful purpose. Many commentators have further said that more money without reform is in danger of landing in the hands of Maoists themselves,” Shah wrote to the PM.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Jul 2011 09:09

and regarding what the CG govt thinks about development in that state

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... et/386475/

Chhattisgarh government has earmarked about 46 per cent of the state's total expenditure for the social sector.

This sector would help the State achieve the key Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) concerning reduction of poverty and malnutrition, Chief Minister Dr Raman Singh said while presenting the budget estimate of Rs 24,685.43 crore for the fiscal year 2010-11 in the State Assembly today.

so 46% of the budget to social sector equates to 11355 crores.

The CG is such a wrong case, it should have forgot about these 11355 crores or even better burned this money and simply run after 250 crores (25*10) districts under iap

So Chattisgarh didnt use 50% of iap funds, i.e. 125 crores when it is trying to spend 11355+ crores (roads not included in this figure, but included in iap.)

Please have SOME perspective.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Jul 2011 09:36

now new information and has me rolling on the floor.

2010 august when the iap was being planned.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ancial-aid
january 2011 when the iap started its implementation and funding announced
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=69078

So the iap grant started this year in january. and
the chattisgarh planning commission seems to have decided that they will release 100 crores from the iap.
and if the 50% utilization is correct, it is very well on its way to spend the amount by the year end.
http://daily.bhaskar.com/article/MP-RAI ... .html?PRV=

and the below statement from hindu stating that iap is in full swing
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... .ece[quote]

According to information received from the districts by the Planning Commission, against the release of Rs.1500 crore, all the 60 districts put together have taken up works worth Rs.2732.58 crore and the expenditure level has already reached Rs.702.60 crore, which roughly represents about 47 per cent of the sanctioned fund.

The total allocation of Rs.1500 crore, distributed at Rs.25 crore per district, was released in December last year as part of the block grant for 2010-11 and placed at the disposal of the Committee headed by the District Collector. All the 60 districts finalised the works to be taken up, completed the tender processes, wherever needed, and began work on the ground immediately. On May 12 this year, Rs.10 crore per district was also released for the implementation of the IAP scheme in 2011-12. The government had approved Rs. 30 crore per district as block grant for 2011-12.
[/quote]

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 19 Jul 2011 09:40

Virupaksha wrote:the iap is DEVELOPMENT funds and it totally bypasses the state govts through direct disbursal to the district. Those funds are NOT for the police

They are not "police" funds, but they are for building up governance capacities - roads, communications as well as "soft" capcities like schools...Wasnt there some eloquent whines about the lack of "connectivity" in C'garh? these funds could be, are meant to be used as such..

Virupaksha wrote:i.e. it totally by passes the state govt and the non-usage of those funds actually how much the kongshaal through PC and home ministry actually wants to target the reds in chattisgarh, note all the three in the committee are IAS, IPS and IFS cadre respectively, which are only half administratively under the state government, while the rest under PC himself, the home minister

First of all, the "bolded" portion...All IAS and IPS officers, when posted in the state, are administratively and otherwise, part of the "state govt"...Their posting, assessment as well as punishment, are decided by the state govt...Even for central postings (in Central ministries, dpartments or CPOs), they need to get permission from the parent cadre state govt...

Second, there isnt much "discretion" on the amounts of funds allocated under IAP - its a fixed amount per district, across various heads...that is precisely why all MPs/state govts try and get as many districts classified as "naxal affected" as possible...BTW, IAP is only the new avatar, the programme has existed in its various avatars for many years now...

But really, what indeed is the point? That the Centre is not "helping" the C'garh govt enough through funding? Even Raman Singh doesnt say that...no surprise, given the state's most crowning achievement, its fantastic PDS delivery system, is a Central-funded activity!

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Jul 2011 09:42

somnath wrote:
Virupaksha wrote:the iap is DEVELOPMENT funds and it totally bypasses the state govts through direct disbursal to the district. Those funds are NOT for the police
They are not "police" funds, but they are for building up governance capacities - roads, communications as well as "soft" capcities like schools...Wasnt there some eloquent whines about the lack of "connectivity" in C'garh? these funds could be, are meant to be used as such..

Virupaksha wrote:i.e. it totally by passes the state govt and the non-usage of those funds actually how much the kongshaal through PC and home ministry actually wants to target the reds in chattisgarh, note all the three in the committee are IAS, IPS and IFS cadre respectively, which are only half administratively under the state government, while the rest under PC himself, the home minister
First of all, the "bolded" portion...All IAS and IPS officers, when posted in the state, are administratively and otherwise, part of the "state govt"...Their posting, assessment as well as punishment, are decided by the state govt...Even for central postings (in Central ministries, dpartments or CPOs), they need to get permission from the parent cadre state govt...

Second, there isnt much "discretion" on the amounts of funds allocated under IAP - its a fixed amount per district, across various heads...that is precisely why all MPs/state govts try and get as many districts classified as "naxal affected" as possible...BTW, IAP is only the new avatar, the programme has existed in its various avatars for many years now...

But really, what indeed is the point? That the Centre is not "helping" the C'garh govt enough through funding? Even Raman Singh doesnt say that...no surprise, given the state's most crowning achievement, its fantastic PDS delivery system, is a Central-funded activity!

Please read the post above this before commenting

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 19 Jul 2011 09:44

ManishH wrote:Somnathji: A switch to VDC method would be like a last resort - a hedgehog defence in military parlance. But security forces still have a lot of initiative in Mao-infested lands - enough to do a fluid offensive defence. That's where SPOs played such a crucial role.

There should indeed be new strategies in place - I am sure the professionals would come up with enough altrenatives....But whatever role the SJ played, it sure wasnt showing up in terms of results...

You are right about the "execution" aspect of judicial pronouncements...It is a problem these days with the sort of over-reach we are seeing..And not restricted to just the SJ case...

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 19 Jul 2011 12:26

Factional feud threatens to split Maoist ranks

Posting in Full

New Delhi: It’s not just the security forces the Maoists are up against. They are also battling internal demons. Bitter differences have cropped up between the People’s War and Maoist Coordination Committee factions, threatening to split the CPI-Maoist.

The two factions were separate parties which merged to form CPI-Maoist
on September 21, 2004. But ugly factional fights among top leaders, who prize secrecy above most things, are now coming out in the open.

Sources said Koteshwar Rao Kishanji (from PW) has serious differences with MCC’s Jhantu Mukherji. Both are CPI-Maoist central committee members. Last year, Kishanji wrote to Maoist chief Ganapathy accusing Mukherji of misappropriation of party funds and fuelling factional feuds. Mukherji rebutted the charges. He claimed Kishanji’s womanizing and egotism had dealt a big blow to the Maoist movement in West Bengal.

GOING SEPARATE WAYS

Infighting between cadres of PW and MCC, which merged to form CPI-Maoist
Kishanji (from PW) accused another senior leader Jhantu Mukherji (MCC) of embezzling funds and fuelling faction fights. Mukherji says Kishanji an egotist and womanizer Nalla Bhikshapathi (PW), a Dalit Maoist arrested in Jharkhand, told sleuths MCC cadres had insulted him over his caste and language.

A woman leader refused to work with Pramod Mishra and was shifted out of party’s north bureau
In Rohtas (Bihar), Maoist cadres killed their regional committee leader Birendra Yadav Kishanji pulled up for setbacks in Bengal
New Delhi: Bitter differences have cropped up between the People’s War (PW) and Maoist Coordination Committee (MCC) factions, threatening to split the CPI-Maoist.

The Maoist central committee had pulled up Kishanji for the party’s setbacks in Bengal, where the movement had flourished till 2009.
Again last year, Nalla Bhikshapathi, a Maoist Dalit leader from PW, was arrested in Jharkhand. He reportedly wept while telling interrogators how MCC cadres insulted him for his caste and language.

In another rare instance, sources say a CC member (from PW) from Andhra Pradesh was so disgusted with a fellow CC member from MCC that he surrendered to the police. He is currently living in anonymity in his native village.

A source close to the Maoists said a woman state committee member (PW) of the outfit’s north regional bureau (NRB) defied a top leader who hailed from the opposite camp. The wife of a CC member killed in a police encounter in 2009, she refused to work with CC member Pramod Mishra (of MCC), who is currently in jail. She was then shifted out of NRB.

The PW-MCC differences are most acute among cadres in the eastern regional bureau (ERB), which includes West Bengal, north Orissa, Jharkhand and Bihar. In Bihar’s Rohtas, Maoist cadres (formerly MCC) killed their regional committee leader, Rana alias Birendra Yadav (PW), an event observers said was linked to factional feuds.

Sources say many leaders of both factions have now begun doubting if the merger was a good idea. In the party’s ninth unity congress, leaders of both factions had hoped the merger would speed up the Maoist’s agenda of ushering in a ‘new democratic revolution’ in the country. But the unity, while substantially increasing the Maoists’ area of influence, seems to have added to the outfit’s problems. A section of Maoists have begun calling the merger an “opportunistic compromise”.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 19 Jul 2011 15:13

Virupaksha wrote: so 46% of the budget to social sector equates to 11355 crores.

The CG is such a wrong case, it should have forgot about these 11355 crores or even better burned this money and simply run after 250 crores (25*10) districts under iap

And how much of the state budget is Central grants? AFAIR, ~20% of it is outright grant, and another 25-30% is state share in Central taxes...To be sure, C'garh has done fantastic work on some areas of social services - I mentioned before the PDS (which of course is funded primarily out of Central food subsidy bill out of the Union Budget)...

No one's doing any favours, but net net, the case of the evil mainowadi Centre "underfunding" C'garh is hugely rich...the point on IAP budgets is also related to that (more than the amount, its funding that cuts through the various bureaucracy in the state, and places it with district officials for direct interventions)....

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Jul 2011 17:56

This is a strawmen. Nobody except you have talked of "underfunding" CG govt compared to other normal govts of similar size..

I have talked of centre not being serious and congress being unwilling to kill off reds.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Jul 2011 18:33

Rudradev ji,
I was not aware of the "published" report that Nihat ji has quoted. But since this is already in the public domain, I can just say - that I was made aware of the "eastern" internal conflict some time ago. This was what I had hinted at as a basis of the first signs that can be used. Moreover, the report does confirm what I have told all along - that the "leftist" upper echelons do retain all the internalized social-hierarchical biases of their origins. Moreover they are highly penetrated by the "state". Some of these factional infights have roots in conflicts over ego, power, sex, but also what seems to be falling out over tactical lines that are uncannily aligned to Kongrez or specific "religious" interests.

It is time to provide an alternative framework for them to align to.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 19 Jul 2011 19:35

Virupaksha wrote:This is a strawmen. Nobody except you have talked of "underfunding" CG govt compared to other normal govts of similar size..

I have talked of centre not being serious and congress being unwilling to kill off reds.

Go through the posts - the uber nationalist position is based on how evil Centre is giving "only" a small amount to C'garh to combat naxalism! I am arguing on the contrary!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Jul 2011 22:18

An interesting point to note - I see consistent avoidance of writing the full "Chattisgarh"! No disambiguation problem too - if that is the excuse - because the other C'garh is Union territory. If the word is "too long" then why not an initials-style that is used for others - UP/WB, etc? Does "Chattis" remind of a historical and traditional past that has to be written out of the modern mythology of p-secism?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Jul 2011 22:44

somnath wrote:
Virupaksha wrote:This is a strawmen. Nobody except you have talked of "underfunding" CG govt compared to other normal govts of similar size..

I have talked of centre not being serious and congress being unwilling to kill off reds.
Go through the posts - the uber nationalist position is based on how evil Centre is giving "only" a small amount to C'garh to combat naxalism! I am arguing on the contrary!

1. You are comparing the TOTAL outlay includes development etc, etc....
2. You have accused the CG of being uncaring about development in "red corridor" by using a completely false accusation of using only 50% under a specific program (IAP) and so CG is not serious.
3. Read what I have written, I have nowhere accused the central govt of being partisan in general funding to CG, that was your strawman which you built and demolished, saying yahoo.
4. Yes, giving undeserving states and districts funds for congress political gains using funds meant to be used against leftists is clearly congress political games. Read the link given by me, describing IAP and also the discriminatory funding regarding police arm mobilization. These are facts, however much you want to spin it.
5. Somebody is controlling the reds to attack the non-congress states all seemingly at times convenient for congress. I discussed the casualty figures long back.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Jul 2011 01:38

Virupaksha-ji, good points.

You have correctly noted that some on our forum have a strange notion of "arguing on the contrary."

For instance, "51% of IAP funds un-utilized in Chhatisgarh" was repeatedly pandered as proof that the Central Govt. is generously funding Chhatisgarh's counter-insurgency efforts. It was further cited to imply that Chhatisgarh's under-utilization of IAP funds somehow translates into incompetence in fighting the Maoist insurgency.

This, when IAP is (a) developmental aid, nothing to do with fighting Maoists and (b) IAP bypasses the Chhatisgarh state govt. and goes directly from the Centre to the District administrations (so, where is the fault of Chhatisgarh govt. if the IAP funds were "under-utilized"?)

Your pointing out these two holes in the "argument" (big enough to drive a CRPF convoy through) have been countered by a breathless splutter of non-sequiturs about "discretion" and "fixed amount across all heads" (as if that makes one bit of difference to the merit of the argument!)

There has also been some feeble hand-waving with the pitiful claim that IAP funds (allocated for use by district administrations) could have improved the "connectivity" of Chhatisgarh's infrastructure, in a sufficiently extensive and timely fashion as to make Salwa Judum and SPOs unnecessary!

Not to mention the utterly shameless effort to introduce a NEW strawman even as the old one burns to a crisp in the harsh light of realistic examination... now the "Chhatisgarh PDS scheme funded by the Centre" is being cited. PDS, of course, is much more germane to the question of fighting Maoist insurgency than IAP

Of course, all these protestations of well-informed Elite Iskolarship are supposed to lend credibility to a suggestion whose inanity belies the worst sort of Mainovadi malice. Salwa Judum and SPOs should be "reconstituted into VDCs", it seems... forced to fight only in the confines of their own villages, with their women and children vulnerably close at hand, operationally blind and completely devoid of initiative. As opposed to the offensive-defense role in which these groups have provided a valuable supplement to state and central paramilitaries for years.

Also note the bizzare jalebi of so-called logic, by which it is implied that the forced disarming of SPOs does not put the family members of officers in greater danger of reprisal. Just as Punjab Police family members were made no less safe by the presence of a uniform that SPOs do not wear

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Jul 2011 02:06

brihaspati wrote:Rudradev ji,
I was not aware of the "published" report that Nihat ji has quoted. But since this is already in the public domain, I can just say - that I was made aware of the "eastern" internal conflict some time ago. This was what I had hinted at as a basis of the first signs that can be used. Moreover, the report does confirm what I have told all along - that the "leftist" upper echelons do retain all the internalized social-hierarchical biases of their origins. Moreover they are highly penetrated by the "state". Some of these factional infights have roots in conflicts over ego, power, sex, but also what seems to be falling out over tactical lines that are uncannily aligned to Kongrez or specific "religious" interests.

It is time to provide an alternative framework for them to align to.

Brihaspati ji, your observations and Nihat ji's quoted report are very illuminating.

The report talks about a split along PWG/MCC lines; can you indicate how these factions correlate with alignment to the Kongrez and specific "religious" interests you mentioned?

Harking back to the murder of Hindu anti-conversion activist Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati in Kandhamal... the clearest publicly-known instance of such alignment to my knowledge... PWG seems to have been more active than MCC in the Gajapati-Ganjam area of Orissa. CPI Maoist Central Committee initially denied that attack, and responsibility was claimed by one Azad (from "Maoist People's Liberation Guerilla Army".) The police report on the case indicted Azad, along with five other Maoists, of whom four supposedly were not from the area at all but from Chhatisgarh.

Of course, given the clear Missionary hand in the assassination of the Swami, one can hardly expect that the police case was free of cover-ups, and it is possible that "Azad" was simply a scapegoat. However, this was the first instance when I remember some of the factional infighting between the CPI Maoist groups came to light (for the wider general public, anyway.) There seemed to have been a backlash against the killing of the Swami by some tribal (as opposed to EJ-convert) Maoist cadres.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2011 02:14

Rudradev wrote: For instance, "51% of IAP funds un-utilized in Chhatisgarh" was repeatedly pandered as proof that the Central Govt. is generously funding Chhatisgarh's counter-insurgency efforts. It was further cited to imply that Chhatisgarh's under-utilization of IAP funds somehow translates into incompetence in fighting the Maoist insurgency.

Rudradev ji,

Just wanted you to point to you that the statement.

"51% of IAP funds un-utilized in Chhatisgarh" is a falsehood not because of logic but because it is a lie.
Please refer to the below post

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1131387

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Jul 2011 02:17

There is also the possibility that the Swami and his co-workers were murdered by Christian Militants (associated with the World Vision "Charity")

http://www.dailypioneer.com/19104/Wides ... lings.html

The police have arrested Pradesh Kumar Das, an employee of the World Vision, a Christian Charity, from Khadagpur while escaping from the district at Buguda. In another drive, two other persons Vikram Digal and William Digal have been arrested from the house of Lal Digal, a local militant Christian, from Nuasahi at Gunjibadi, Nuagaan. They have admitted to having joined a group of 28 other assailants.

But of course, "Christian Militants" (let alone "Christian Terrorists!") is not a phrase that any media outlet would dare to repeat more than once in Maino-land; and the widespread publicity attendant to such a case would not suit the Missionary interests one bit either.

If the Indian public came to see the Digals as an equal-equal counterpart to Dara Singh, it would have become much harder for Missionaries to claim the "moral high ground" while beating Hindus over the head with Graham Staines!

So it is possible that the entire business of "Maoist" involvement in that particular case, was completely fabricated and the Maoists entirely scapegoated for an atrocity by Christian Terrorists.

More here:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/28orissa1.htm

Maybe the fact of being blamed for the murder of Laxmanananda (when in fact, it had purely been the work of Evanjehadi Christian Terrorists) was one of the causes of disaffection between different factions of Maoists. This should be investigated further.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Jul 2011 02:19

Virupaksha wrote: Rudradev ji,

Just wanted you to point to you that the statement.

"51% of IAP funds un-utilized in Chhatisgarh" is a falsehood not because of logic but because it is a lie.
Please refer to the below post

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1131387

Ah, I missed that one! Thanks.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jul 2011 06:09

Virupaksha wrote: 1. You are comparing the TOTAL outlay includes development etc, etc....
2. You have accused the CG of being uncaring about development in "red corridor" by using a completely false accusation of using only 50% under a specific program (IAP) and so CG is not serious.
3. Read what I have written, I have nowhere accused the central govt of being partisan in general funding to CG, that was your strawman which you built and demolished, saying yahoo.
4. Yes, giving undeserving states and districts funds for congress political gains using funds meant to be used against leftists is clearly congress political games. Read the link given by me, describing IAP and also the discriminatory funding regarding police arm mobilization. These are facts, however much you want to spin it.
5. Somebody is controlling the reds to attack the non-congress states all seemingly at times convenient for congress. I discussed the casualty figures long back.

1. That ET report posted was in repsonse to that splendid elocution of Central/INC "perfidy" by quoting a report on one development head (out of many thousands in a typical govt programme) - "42 crores for C'garh compared to 130 for Haryana"....
2. There is nothing "false" about the ET report..IAP is the present avatar of a long running programme for naxal-affected districts...It quotes the numbers state-by-state...You quoted some reports that say that C'garh is taking time to utilise those funds..Thats fine, but just dont bring in the non sequitor that a perfidious centre is not funding the state govt for anti-naxal efforts...
3. You seem to make a point that "oh, Centre is funding C'garh well enough on development, but depriving it on policing"...As naive (at best) as it gets - money is fungible...Assuming that C'garh is getting adequate funding for other "development" heads, what stops the state govt from upping its own funding for the police? Espeically, and I have mentioned this many times, given the state of its fisc?
4. But actually, the above is a non sequitor..Development (and political solutions) form the cornerstone of an anti-insurgency strategy...If poverty and lack of development are enabling conditions for the growth of naxalism, it is development that take away thoese conditions...The budgets required for policing comparatively is much much less - CI is largely a "very light" infantry effort, backed by intel...
5. the partisanship that you allege in SJ is more in your mind than on the ground...SJ was founded and led by an INC politician - Mahendra Karma (leader of opposition)...The govt's SPO programme was funded by the Centre - reason why the latter was a prty to that petition in SC...

Lastly,

This, when IAP is (a) developmental aid, nothing to do with fighting Maoists and (b) IAP bypasses the Chhatisgarh state govt. and goes directly from the Centre to the District administrations (so, where is the fault of Chhatisgarh govt. if the IAP funds were "under-utilized"?)

People with scant knowledge of even the basics of the Indian "system" rush in to make conclusions...All district officials are technically, practically (and everything else) "employed" by the state govt..Their postings, ACRs and promotions are decided by the state govt...For all purposes, theoretical and practical, they are the state govt...To say that funding the district administration is "bypassing" the state govt, is well....

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2011 06:22

Somnath,

What was the previous avatar of IAP??

The planning commission was opposed to it as devaluation of panchayati raj system but Chidu, the EVM winner rode over their objections. IAP was an idea back in august last year, first funding came about in jan this year.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jul 2011 06:42

Virupaksha wrote:What was the previous avatar of IAP??

The planning commission was opposed to it as devaluation of panchayati raj system but Chidu, the EVM winner rode over their objections. IAP was an idea back in august last year, first funding came about in jan this year.

There are/were many avatars, numerous scheme, veritable alphabet soup - earlier there were 35 districts identified..There were separate "focus" plans for Bharat Nirman for these districts, some Home Ministry funding plans and so on...IAP was supposed to be integrating a number of these funding programmes under one unbrella...

You are right on this point, the biggest issue with IAP is that it goes against the new philosophy of panchayat oversight on local spends..So its a fair point, though PC's objections may not not entirely be selfish - IAP AFAIK is executed by the Planning Commission...In fact a lot of the legacy "special naxal programmes" are/were implemented by Home Ministry - to that extent PC was giving up a bit of his monopoly by arguing in favour!

In any case, chanced upon some more instance of "Central perfidy" towards C'garh in anti-naxal efforts..

Home ministry efforts on anti-naxal initiatives in states

Deployment of CRPF
http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/NM-Annex-I.pdf

Funding for IRB units (thee are raised by the state govt, funded by Centre)
http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/NM-Annex-II.pdf

Modernisation of police forces programme
http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/NM-Annex-III.pdf

Reimbursement of Security-related expenditure
http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/NM-Annex-IV.pdf

funding for creation of Special infrastructure
http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/NM-Annex-V.pdf

Given the data, its a trifle tough to sustain the argument of an INC/Centre conspiracy to defang the "nationalist" C'garh govt's anti-naxal efforts, no?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 20 Jul 2011 23:23

Indian Maoists kill three Congress party workers.
RAIPUR, India — Suspected Maoist rebels killed three officials from India's ruling Congress party on Wednesday in an ambush in the central state of Chhattisgarh, police said.
The rebels, who control large swathes of rural India, set off a landmine and then opened fire on a convoy of vehicles carrying party workers 170 kilometres (100 miles) east of Raipur, the state capital.
"In the Maoist ambush this evening three officials from the Congress party have been killed and at least five are injured," Ramniwas, the chief of Chhattisgarh's anti-Maoist operations who only uses one name, told AFP.
"Security forces from several directions have been rushed to the spot."
Source:http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... 56ec8e.451

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 21 Jul 2011 03:35

SATP:

In a detailed assessment, the Army Chief and the seven Army Commanders has decided to deploy at least 60-65,000 troops to provide an effective counter to the Naxal [Left Wing Extremism] threat, reports Indian Express on July 19. The Army top brass gave their stamp of approval in June to a massive troop relocation plan in case they are ordered into combat. Giving the go-ahead for preparations at a meeting in the Lucknow-based Central Army Command, the Army top brass agreed that at least six Army divisions will be needed to cover Naxal-affected areas in parts of Andhra Pradesh, Bihar, Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Odisha and West Bengal. The decision was carried out on the Ministry of Home Affairs proposal suggesting on relocation of some Rashtriya Rifle units from Jammu & Kashmir to the Naxal-affected areas. The Army is of the view that in most areas, the Police and paramilitary are avoiding conflict which is giving room to the Naxals to organise themselves better

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 21 Jul 2011 04:31

Time to lay some more Elite Iskool fiction to rest:

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... tral-funds

The Integrated Action Plan (IAP) -- under which the Centre has directly released Rs 1,500 crore to affected districts and left it to the discretion of a district-level committee comprising the collector, SP and district forest officer to earmark the development and infrastructure projects on which they are spent – has resulted in the initiation of works worth Rs 2,732 crore in 60 Naxal-affected districts.

The Collector is from the IAS, SP from the IPS and DFO from the Indian Forest Service. All are members of All-India Services, recruited and trained by the Central Government. They may be appointed to state cadres or to Central govt. deputation, at the Central Government's discretion. Rules governing their recruitment and conditions of service are made by the Union Govt of India onlee.

A very, very far cry from what one "well-informed" Mainovadi has sought to pass off as the truth:

All district officials are technically, practically (and everything else) "employed" by the state govt..Their postings, ACRs and promotions are decided by the state govt...For all purposes, theoretical and practical, they are the state govt...

@ the "intellectual honesty" bestowed by the burqa of "quotation marks" !

But then, the entire allegation that these "State Govt" (meaning district-level IAS/IPS/IFS) officials had under-utilized IAP grants by 51% , has been exposed as a barefaced lie. Just like everything else this forum has ever heard from Mainovadi sources.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 21 Jul 2011 05:54

Hmm, the level of arrogance based on about zero familiarity with the Indian administrative apparatus is amazing...

They may be appointed to state cadres or to Central govt. deputation, at the Central Government's discretion. Rules governing their recruitment and conditions of service are made by the Union Govt of India onlee

Once a civil servant is allotted a cadre (which is based on matching "demand" from the various states/UTs and the candidates' own preferences), the Central govt has little discretion over matters of postings of the person...The state govt has to acquiesce to any deputation to the Centre or change of cadre...Postings, ACRs, promotions are all at the discretion of the state govt...

Anyone saying that a DM/SP is a Central govt nominee in the state govt is re-inventing the "steel frame" according to his own fantasies...

But then, the entire allegation that these "State Govt" (meaning district-level IAS/IPS/IFS) officials had under-utilized IAP grants by 51% , has been exposed as a barefaced lie.

Yeah, when allegations of "underfunding" based on random googled news reports are shown up to be the stupid ideological fulminations that they are, this is indeed expected...strangely, even Raman Singh doesnt accuse the Centre of "underfunding" him! But some people are holier than the pope

Maybe its a consequence of "non elite" school backgrounds - the quality of those in India are quite abysmal

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 21 Jul 2011 08:10

It is always entertaining to see the most categorical assertions of the Elite Iskooled slipping into non-committal hogwash... slowly, inexorably... when saddled with the inconvenient burden of reality!

From

All district officials are technically, practically (and everything else) "employed" by the state govt

We now have a veritable rash of qualifiers sprouting like prickly itch under the sun:

Once a civil servant is allotted a cadre (which is based on matching "demand" from the various states/UTs and the candidates' own preferences), the Central govt has little discretion over matters of postings of the person...

This feeble attempt to conserve what is left of H&D inspires pathos, but the unfortunate reality, as laid out in the All India Services Act 1951:

http://persmin.gov.in/DOPT/Acts_Rules/A ... ule_02.pdf

Regulation of recruitment and conditions of service.—(1) The Central Government may, after consultation with the Governments of the States concerned [including the State of Jammu and Kashmir], (and by notification in the Official Gazette) make rules for the regulation of recruitment, and the conditions of service of persons appointed to an All India Service.

Which is == technically, practically, and everything else "employed" by the State Govt, of course

Ignorant I may be, but somehow I never managed to display quite the degree of mental deficiency required to get into a truly Elite Iskool.

One also sees a reference to "random googled news reports." It is worth going back to Page 66 of this thread to see who originally introduced this "randomly googled news report" in question... in order to "substantiate" a fallacious assertion, as usual...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1078275

Of course, the fact that C'garh (along with many other states) fails to utilise Central grants for modernisation also is a Christian/Leftist conspiracy, and not the incompetence of the state govt!
http://www.zeenews.com/news692992.html

The Mainovadi tendency to blame others for your own worthless droppings, speaks volumes!

Meanwhile some "data" have been proffered, it appears. I look forward to an entertaining spin being placed on these "data", but from an objective standpoint:

http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/NM-Annex-I.pdf

This one seems to indicate that the CRPF was, in fact, deployed in Chhattisgarh as in many other states facing Maoist insurgency. How shameless of all of us antediluvian Hindutvavadis to assert that the CRPF had never been deployed in Chhattisgarh.

Except, no one has ever made that assertion: it is a pure strawman that is being demolished with the "data" in the above report.

http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/NM-Annex-II.pdf

This one gives details of Central funding and State Govt. raising of IR Battalions in a number of states over an unspecified period (so much for completeness of "data"!) Regardless, it shows that Chhattisgarh was sanctioned for 7 battalions and raised 4, over this unspecified period. Over the same period, Andhra Pradesh was sanctioned for 8 battalions and raised 5. By these "data" at least, Chhattisgarh seems to have done about as well, if not slightly better, than AP in this specific aspect of the counterinsurgency effort.

Unfortunately this does not support certain Elite Iskooled allegations about the relative "success" of AP's anti-Naxalite efforts, compared with the "incompetence" and "on-the-cheap" "cop-outs" of Chhattisgarh... see here...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1078075

The fact that AP, with a police-to-population ratio lower than C'garh, and a per-capita expdt on police substantially lower than C'garh, does so much better with its anti-inurgency campaign isnt a question of quality of execution, but of differential perfidies!

http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/NM-Annex-III.pdf
Modernisation of Police Forces Programme

Now this one is interesting.

Looking at the figures for Central Share in the Police Modernization Program of various states affected by Maoist insurgency in 2008-09, the figures in Rs. crore are

For states ruled by INC/UPA/Parties giving external support to UPA at Centre, 2008-2009:

Uttar Pradesh, 102.32 cr
Andhra Pradesh, 83.84 cr
Jharkhand, 69.86 cr
Maharashtra, 75.86 cr

For states ruled by NDA or Left Opposition, 2008-2009

Orissa, 42.54 cr
Bihar, 41.57 cr
Madhya Pradesh, 40.37 cr
West Bengal, 32.18 cr
Chhattisgarh, 26.54 cr

Not drawing any conclusions

Make of that what you will.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 21 Jul 2011 08:24

Stan_Savljevic wrote:SATP:

In a detailed assessment, the Army Chief and the seven Army Commanders has decided to deploy at least 60-65,000 troops to provide an effective counter to the Naxal [Left Wing Extremism] threat, reports Indian Express on July 19. The Army top brass gave their stamp of approval in June to a massive troop relocation plan in case they are ordered into combat. Giving the go-ahead for preparations at a meeting in the Lucknow-based Central Army Command, the Army top brass agreed that at least six Army divisions will be needed to cover Naxal-affected areas in parts of Andhra Pradesh, Bihar, Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Odisha and West Bengal. The decision was carried out on the Ministry of Home Affairs proposal suggesting on relocation of some Rashtriya Rifle units from Jammu & Kashmir to the Naxal-affected areas. The Army is of the view that in most areas, the Police and paramilitary are avoiding conflict which is giving room to the Naxals to organise themselves better

Stan, I cannot find the Indian Express report anywhere... or any other mention of this "decision to deploy" 65,000 troops by the Army, except in SATP. Any independent confirmation? It would be a step of some significance.

I'm also wary of the language used: IA does not "decide to deploy" troops of its own accord within Indian territory in peacetime. Was the army asked to evaluate the situation and come up with solutions by the MHA?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 21 Jul 2011 08:45

Ignorant I may be, but somehow I never managed to display quite the degree of mental deficiency required to get into a truly Elite Iskool

Agree, shows clearly..

as laid out in the All India Services Act 1951

Says nothing to the contrary of what has been asserted, but then, what to expect of someone who has most likely never ever come across a public servant in India! Let alone know how the bureaucracy is structured...It would be too much to expect such "knowledgeable" people to know who orders trasnfers, postings and ACRs of civil servants...But then, whoever accused the likes of KS Sudarshan of "scholarship" - how can we expect their ideological fellow travellers to be any different!

Now, on glorious interpretations of data..

Except, no one has ever made that assertion: it is a pure strawman that is being demolished with the "data" in the above report.

Really?! Wasnt the whole premise on how a "mainowadi" Centre is castrating a nationalist state govt? I guess deploying 40% of CPMFs deployed for anti-naxal efforts in one state in an instance of that...

By these "data" at least, Chhattisgarh seems to have done about as well, if not slightly better, than AP in this specific aspect of the counterinsurgency effort.

Unfortunately this does not support certain Elite Iskooled allegations about the relative "success" of AP's anti-Naxalite efforts, compared with the "incompetence" and "on-the-cheap" "cop-outs" of Chhattisgarh

Certain people do have a problem tackling lots of variables in one go - but this is taking the cake...IRB is but one part of the CI effort...C'garh matches AP in raising IRBs, but lacks in everything else - primarily capacities (quality and quantity) of the police force...Compensates that by raising SJ..But then, one should make grants for certain mental faculties to absorb multiple data points I guess...

Looking at the figures for Central Share in the Police Modernization Program of various states affected by Maoist insurgency in 2008-09, the figures in Rs. crore are

This takes the cake...Pick up one year, and ignore all previous years..And conveniently ignoring the utlisation ratios - where (yet again) C'garh seems to be worse than Bihar!

Above all, its a bit amusing to see constant allusions of "underfunding" of police, because police is a state govt responsiblity - it needs to be funded by the state..but that amount of elementary "civics" knowledge is essentially outside the grasp of people whose mental faculties are, byt their own admission, well..............

anyways, enough cavilling over essentially a non-point, which even Raman Singh doesnt make...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jul 2011 10:13

Mamta didi going the same route as first time CMs before her have done. 52 pests released

God knows what will happen to the morale of the forces

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 21 Jul 2011 18:23

It is hilarious - super p-seci egos claiming state gov decides completely what happens to "central cadre" placed in the state in any relevant branch of the services! This is supposed to be an immensely knowledgeable p-sec - who knows how the state and central admin cadre interact or run?!!!

After Nepal and/or China [as usual the sentence is constructed so that the p-secs can later claim "I never said that I said..." lack of comprehension] being declared "atheist countries", or immense knowledge of "Bangali" culture and "Rabindrasangeet" and Rabindra-sahitya which reduces to just one p-sec edited version of one single poem and pompous declarations that certain concepts do not appear in certain poems [which in turn shows why the unfamiliarity with the language and its cultural aspects leads to fantastic dreams about BD

], this is another piece of the cake that comes out in showing the roots of p-seci "compre-fusion" - the near total lack of actual exposure to systems/languages/social-segments/continuing-exchanges with desh and its elements that p-secs pontificate about in their infinite arrogance from their insular cocoons.

I am sure several IAS/IPS cadre [apart from other "central" cadre in other branches of services] or their close relatives either are lurking or are as posters here. You can enlighten these blighted p-secs about the reality. The state govs do not have full dictatorial powers over such staff. They also have their own unofficial networks which help in defying state gov/local politician demands to unspecified degrees. I know of many such instances -am a witness from childhood to such things. In fact, local politicians often use the relative "independence" of such "cadre" in getting things done by proxy that they cannot do otherwise against the wishes of their local parties otherwise.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 21 Jul 2011 18:41

Hmmm, as usual uber nationalist fulmination comes to the fore..Based on, as usual, random googled knowledge...

So IAS/IPS/IForestS are "central cadre" now?! Obviously the nuances of "All India Services" and their "cadres" are not well-known - I guess google isnt much help! "Central cadre" indeed...Rings similar to "sarani" in rural bengal.. Or googled "I think..." poems of Tagore!