Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 12:02

Rahul M wrote:the more geeky or featureless the name, the more shadowy it is. even NTRO is too direct for me, I would have preferred something like 'technical evaluation office' or 'applied sciences dept'.

Like RAW or ARC... It would be even better if we use the same abbreviation as used by a defunct PSU like Indian Copper Corporation (ICC) or Hindustan Copper Ltd (HCL)...forget the name, let them get their act together... let us expand NTRO as "National Transport Organization"

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 19 Jul 2011 18:15

Shrinivasan wrote:
Rahul M wrote:the more geeky or featureless the name, the more shadowy it is. even NTRO is too direct for me, I would have preferred something like 'technical evaluation office' or 'applied sciences dept'.
Like RAW or ARC... It would be even better if we use the same abbreviation as used by a defunct PSU like Indian Copper Corporation (ICC) or Hindustan Copper Ltd (HCL)...forget the name, let them get their act together... let us expand NTRO as "National Transport Organization"

I guess the point I am trying to make is GoI using words like National, Research, Technical etc to name an organization it sounds geeky and obscure--which is good because geeks get the job done. However, these organizations are as clueless as their names sound obscure. RAW, NTRO, IB, CBI--all defunct and in a rat race with each other. I know people on this forum like to think they are technically evaluating intelligence on the DL or something but repeated failures to gather intelligence and present it to the PMO in a timely, coherent fashion suggest they are "taking lunch" for a couple of hours and playing Hearts on their Windows 98 "komputars". By then, its chai-biskoot time already. Hence the rape of aam aadmi in India continues. Nothing geeky. Nothing obscure. Nothing worth writing home about.

On the flip side you have foreign organizations with direct names like CIA, ISI or MI5 (notice they actually use the word "Intelligence" and not shy away like SDRE's) who can and have whipped our homeboys a$$es on home turf.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 19 Jul 2011 18:28

Eventhough many including me are not happy about the results delivered by our itel agencies, calling them bad names are uncalled for. For all those chai biskoot eating babus there may be a few risking their lives behind enemy lines for the country.

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 19 Jul 2011 18:36

"A senior Army officer said they were getting credible inputs in recent times that Kashmiri terrorists were being provided smart phones from which calls could be made using Skype, the popular Internet VoIP site. Though they haven't yet recovered any such Skype phones, Army found that communications over mobile and Thuraya satellite phones had mostly dried up, he said. "

Dear Indian Army technical research guy/officer/whosoever concerned:
They(terrorists) will start carrying IPads and use Google Voice next. You don't need "credible inputs" for shyt like this. You should have figured it out before they used Skype or Google voice( I know you don't have any credible inputs on that yet). You heard it here first, now get to work.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 19 Jul 2011 18:38

There have been spectacular successes of RAW which is surely considerably better organization than ISI. 9/11 HAPPENED IN SPITE OF THE CIA. There have been several attempts to bomb US since. They did not succeed . But the reason was good luck of the Americans (like bomb intime square failing to explode) , besides solid internal security arrangements. US is separated geographically by oceans from asia. And has friendly progressive neighbours. The problem with Desh is pathetic policing and internal security , collusion between underworld and politicians and vote bank politics. RAW has prevented several attacks . But success rarely comes to public. ISI has just been given the reputation by the DDM . It is pathetic like everything else PAKI. It is no big deal to kill civilians. Even a imbecile with guns can do so.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Jul 2011 18:39

VinodTK wrote:Rearmament of India
During the Kargil War of May-July 1999, the Bofors artillery guns used their firepower with deadly accuracy and destroyed a large number of enemy bunkers and other fortified positions. But there was a problem: Pakistani cannons accurately targeted and destroyed a number of these guns. It was learnt, only after the war, that

Pakistan’s gunners had “weapon-locating” radars that studied the trajectory of the shells fired by the Bofors guns to determine their position. And then the penny dropped: the Pakistani forces were better equipped than Indians. Alarmed, India, without further ado, bought similar equipment, called the ANQ Firefinder, from the United States.

In 2003, the Indian and French Air Forces held a joint exercise. It was found that the French pilots could hook on to the radar system of Indian fighter jets, though they were beyond visibility, and then bring them in the crosshairs of their missiles. In actual war, Indian pilots would have been sitting ducks. Exposed poorly in the exercise, the Indian Air Force is acquiring the same capabilities for its Mirage aircraft from France. Also in the works is a similar indigenous “Beyond Visual Range” missile called the Astra.

* * *

After a long pause, the rearmament of India has begun. New weapon systems are being acquired — combat jets, ships, tanks, artillery guns, missiles, radars, etc — and existing hardware is getting overhauled. Various think-tanks estimate that India will spend anywhere between $75 billion and $100 billion over the next seven years to bolster its military capabilities. The annual defence budget, at almost $41 billion, or a tad over 2 per cent of the gross domestic product, is at an all-time high. Off-book expenditure would make it at least a quarter higher. India finally has more staying power than Pakistan if there is war, defence analysts on both sides of the border have started to say.
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Read on; long and interesting

The article is not psy-ops, it was known in the kargil war that Pakis had the weapon locating radar, today many people dont rember but until operation Parakam, from 1989, there were regular Artillery exchanges between India and pakistan along the LOC and the Pakis used Weapon locating radar. Indian lost soldiers but did not loose Bofors guns to Paki counter battery fire. IAF knew that M-2000TH was inferior to the French M-2000-5 in the 2003 exercises.

But it seems to exagerate that Indian rearming which is miniscule. It will be fair when comparitvely, India is armed like the US and Pakis are armed like thier brethren the Taliban.

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 19 Jul 2011 18:40

Dilbu wrote:Eventhough many including me are not happy about the results delivered by our itel agencies, calling them bad names are uncalled for. For all those chai biskoot eating babus there may be a few risking their lives behind enemy lines for the country.

...or having love affairs and falling into honey traps seems more like it. Don't get me wrong, being patriotic is one thing but rationalizing inept behavior is another.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 19 Jul 2011 18:42

sevoke wrote:"A senior Army officer said they were getting credible inputs in recent times that Kashmiri terrorists were being provided smart phones from which calls could be made using Skype, the popular Internet VoIP site. Though they haven't yet recovered any such Skype phones, Army found that communications over mobile and Thuraya satellite phones had mostly dried up, he said. "

Dear Indian Army technical research guy/officer/whosoever concerned:
They(terrorists) will start carrying IPads and use Google Voice next. You don't need "credible inputs" for shyt like this. You should have figured it out before they used Skype or Google voice( I know you don't have any credible inputs on that yet). You heard it here first, now get to work.

They surely have credible inputs. Most Kashmir based terrorsts are killed. They dont publicise their findings. They not post on Br . AND they ll most certainly not inform you.
Dont dare use condescending language on an Indian army guy. You are inviting lynching. YOu can say whatever you want to to doggy singh. But dont insult army.

nothing, and I mean nothing allows you to use language like this. if you can't control yourself, use the report function.
Rahul.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jul 2011 18:42

sevoke boss, it's not quite like that. they are not perfect but they are not incompetent either. do you think this is the first major terror attempt since 26/11 ? for every successful attempt 10 times as many are foiled. most of these never make the media. most of the problems with our intel agencies stem from political interference, not inherent incompetence.
if you think about it, India is probably the the largest target of terror organisations in the world, we are surrounded by countries that are either openly hostile or at least open to supporting anti-India groups. our intel agencies are hamstrung by the politicians from taking hard covert action against foreign countries and in some cases even operating there. our police forces are mostly apathetic, overworked and use archaic investigative techniques and instruments.
in that context it is surprising that we do not have many more terror strikes. that, my dear sir, points to competence, not incompetence.

death of a fellow Indian is a heart-wrenching affair for us but that should never cloud our ability to judge objectively.

...or having love affairs and falling into honey traps seems more like it. Don't get me wrong, being patriotic is one thing but rationalizing inept behavior is another.

if true, not the first intel agency in the world to have done so. secondly, if you followed the discussions, there was a lot of political maneuvering around those news.

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 19 Jul 2011 18:56

gakakkad wrote:There have been spectacular successes of RAW which is surely considerably better organization than ISI. 9/11 HAPPENED IN SPITE OF THE CIA. There have been several attempts to bomb US since. They did not succeed . But the reason was good luck of the Americans (like bomb intime square failing to explode) , besides solid internal security arrangements. US is separated geographically by oceans from asia. And has friendly progressive neighbours. The problem with Desh is pathetic policing and internal security , collusion between underworld and politicians and vote bank politics. RAW has prevented several attacks . But success rarely comes to public. ISI has just been given the reputation by the DDM . It is pathetic like everything else PAKI. It is no big deal to kill civilians. Even a imbecile with guns can do so.

Can you mention one such spectacular success because aam janata like me are in the dark and low on morale. How is an impotent organization like RAW better than ISI? Is it because they act with impunity in the very dangerous lands of Nepal or because no heads roll while bodies keep piling up in Mumbai? 9/11 happened despite of CIA providing credible intelligence, it was the political response that was delayed. George Tenet resigned after the "Weapons of mass destruction" fiasco--heads rolled, people get axed, they are accountable. ISI is dreaded world wide due to reasons well known but nobody knows what RAW is because they have no significant achievement post Indira Gandhi. Israeli Mossad operate in a hostile environment much like RAW but have Arab terrorists $hitting in their pants all the same.

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 19 Jul 2011 19:05

now you are trolling. kindly cool down.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jul 2011 19:06

are you aware for example, that RAW actions in sindh forced pak to stop supporting khalistani activities ? or that they successfully intercepted mushy talking from china with his chief of staff in pakistan, clearing any doubt about paki involvement ? they predicted the musharraf coup in pakistan quite accurately. provided a live commentary of the kunduz airlift in 2001. the list goes on.

the hallmark of a good intel agency is not being heard.

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 19 Jul 2011 19:15

sevoke wrote:now you are trolling. kindly cool down.

Sure, Rahul M. Gakakkad better not use words like lynching or doggy singh. Trust me, I have better vocabulary of choice words but this is not the right forum. Do not call me a troll, warn your buddy to refrain from personal attacks.

okay, I had not read all the posts in this exchange. having done so now, both you and gakakkad have received one warning each for your earlier posts.
secondly, you made a bad situation worse by responding to a personal attack with one of your own, in stead of reporting the post to the moderators. further, after being cautioned in stead of acknowledging the fault you respond by accusing a mod of being biased. for all these reasons you get your second warning, you are now one warning away from a 1month ban.
Rahul.

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 19 Jul 2011 19:41

http://globalbrief.ca/blog/2009/05/13/r ... lds-spies/

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 19 Jul 2011 19:59

Apologies and Thank You, I won't need a third.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 19 Jul 2011 20:19

adminullah boss "doggy singh" was in referece to digvijay singh. It was not a personal attack. And what I said was in reference to the rather condescending remarks made by him on the Indian Army. Just clarifying. Sorry If I offended any one. No more on this topic from me.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Jul 2011 04:02

US exposes ISI subversion of Kashmir cause; FBI arrests US-based lobbyist

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Jul 2011 04:04

Army intercepts terror threat to India's dams

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 20 Jul 2011 09:16

Seen this happen a lot with Govt. employees, never really thought the PMO would be naive too.
Shameful when a foreign news outlet brings out this news

PMO relies on Hotmail accounts to send out emails

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 20 Jul 2011 19:11

GMail has some respectability but Yahoo and Hotmail? Country that prides itself on IT but cannot come up with a secure, user friendly network of its own shows ignorance about conducting official business, rising super power my a$$.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 20 Jul 2011 19:15

sevoke wrote:GMail has some respectability but Yahoo and Hotmail? Country that prides itself on IT but cannot come up with a secure, user friendly network of its own shows ignorance about conducting official business, rising super power my a$$.

if this is true .. i am 100% in agreement with you my friend..!!..

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 21 Jul 2011 04:29

LIVING IN THE MOMENT

Amidst a gathering perception that India’s strategic environment is facing growing challenges from all sides, the Indian government has decided to set up a task force to carry out a review of national security and the country’s preparedness to face the challenges. The task force comes a decade after the Kargil review committee carried out a similar assessment in the wake of the 1999 India-Pakistan conflict. Reports of several such task forces have been ignored by the previous governments, and national security and defence policy has continued to suffer as a result.

The main issue is the lack of institutionalization of foreign and security policy-making that has allowed a drift to set in. The National Democratic Alliance in 1999 promised it would establish a National Security Council to analyse military, economic, and political threats to the nation and to advise the government on how to meet these challenges effectively.
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The Indian fine art of faking security

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 21 Jul 2011 07:30

there is neither security nor any policy at the Govt of India level. They live by the day and die by the day. mumbai terrorist attack shows that.

There is no accountability in the govt to anyone.

I am sure we will lose any next major war and also lose a lot of territory this time. Indian defence is a fluke in the real world other than chess.

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 21 Jul 2011 08:53

aditya.agd wrote:there is neither security nor any policy at the Govt of India level. They live by the day and die by the day. mumbai terrorist attack shows that.

There is no accountability in the govt to anyone.

I am sure we will lose any next major war and also lose a lot of territory this time. Indian defence is a fluke in the real world other than chess.

Please don't say that! Didn't they lodge a strong protest with whosoever? Besides, nowadays, they also create a task force, form a committee and submit dossiers. They literally spend hours and hours doing all this in the Indian summer whilst wearing lungis and dhotis to keep their ball$ cool. As far as accountability is concerned, the CWC or CWG(not sure which) holds a meeting of all these dhoti clad septuagenarians, headed by Madaam and co-chaired by Rahul baba. The ones under scanner get to turn masseurs, entertaining the rest with conversation liberally interspersed with haan jee, wokay saar, wokay madaamjee, or touching Sonia madamji's feet in reverence. After dinner laced with curry and turmeric and ritual finger licking, all is forgiven and forgotten. Aam janata gaya bhaad mein.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jul 2011 09:02

It is only our armed forces that keep the mad beggar across the border at bay

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 21 Jul 2011 09:33

suryag wrote:It is only our armed forces that keep the mad beggar across the border at bay

Yeah, that, the enemy's own incompetence and the world's goodwill towards India.

Vinit · Post by **Vinit** » 21 Jul 2011 09:36

In terms of organization, there are two ways to respond to the rapidly changing security-intelligence demands of today.

Somewhat unfortunately we seem to be going down the road of the "alphabet-soup" approach, with multiple agencies all tripping over each others toes, reluctant to share information, seeing only a part of the picture, etc. Then we put an overarching agency over all of them, which delays and often re-interprets information. To this interesting mix, add neta-babu combos. Viola: chaos.

We're not alone, the US seems to be doing the same, though not as well as we are.

The other organization approach is to have much fewer agencies, perhaps only two: one for internal security, another for external. People are deputed from the police/army/af/border security/navy/civil service/whatever to these organizations, but once there, work as part of that organization. Much cleaner and much more effective.

Of course, the drawbacks in the second approach are that the agencies might get too effective/dangerous, and the neta-babu control ebbs away, so unfortunately its unlikey to happen.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2011 08:47

Officially confirm scam within the NTRO

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 22 Jul 2011 09:15

Dilbu wrote:Eventhough many including me are not happy about the results delivered by our itel agencies, calling them bad names are uncalled for. For all those chai biskoot eating babus there may be a few risking their lives behind enemy lines for the country.

Indeed! They were risking life usurping money in a scam of their own.

munda · Post by **munda** » 22 Jul 2011 10:27

Is Gautam Navlakha (hard core supporter of Maoist and Kashmiri Separatists) an ISI agent? And is ISI behind Maoist movement as well.

He attended Fai's meeting and must have received a lot of funding. Such people should be put in jail

munda · Post by **munda** » 22 Jul 2011 10:28

Craig Alpert wrote:US exposes ISI subversion of Kashmir cause; FBI arrests US-based lobbyist

Is Gautam Navlakha (hard core supporter of Maoist and Kashmiri Separatists) an ISI agent? And is ISI behind Maoist movement as well.

He attended Fai's meeting and must have received a lot of funding. Such people should be put in jail

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2011 11:15

Mumbai 13/7: Q&A - B Raman

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Jul 2011 01:53

prithvi wrote:
sevoke wrote:GMail has some respectability but Yahoo and Hotmail? Country that prides itself on IT but cannot come up with a secure, user friendly network of its own shows ignorance about conducting official business, rising super power my a$$.
if this is true .. i am 100% in agreement with you my friend..!!..

As soon as it is revealed the west/US want to control it by proxy or access.
All the network in the world can be shut off any time by the west. - by accident or by other means

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 25 Jul 2011 03:33

Intelligence agencies keep getting dumber

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 25 Jul 2011 04:04

VinodTK wrote:Intelligence agencies keep getting dumber

A good one Vinod, TOILet and Chindu seems to be on a run nowadays trying to mend their reputation. This is very similar to what "Bruce Schneier" an Information Security Guru has been propounding for years... See more of his works @ http://www.schneier.com/index.html

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 Jul 2011 07:56

Better infrastructure across LoC worries India Presence of Chinese troops in PoK adds to threat perception

Twelve years after the Kargil War, the biggest challenge emerging in the mountainous theatre that had seen some of the most decisive battles fought in the history of high altitude warfare, is the large-scale development of infrastructure across the Line of Control that would enhance Pakistan’s logistic capability.
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Moving along the Batalik-Kargil-Drass axis, it is easy to see the vulnerability of the strategically critical NH-1, with peaks that were occupied by Pakistani forces within a stone’s throw. Further east, the Chinese presence and reported incursions across the LAC in Ladakh have been in the limelight for quite some time.

There are concerns in some quarters about the possibility of long term or permanent presence of Chinese troops in the PoK, increase in their numbers and the possibility of a gradual ‘hemming-in’ of Ladakh from the north and the east.

Another issue that arises is the impact that the presence of Chinese troops in the PoK and along the LoC would have on the Army’s operational planning and execution of operations in case of breach of peace. Though remote, military planners will have to factor in the consequences of Chinese troops getting caught in a crossfire in the eventuality of hostilities, even if a limited cross-border conflict. Top Army commanders responsible for this sector maintained that so far there has been no change in their operational planning.
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nits · Post by **nits** » 27 Jul 2011 10:07

Major clean-up in graft-hit intel agency

In an unprecedented move, the government has initiated a set of sweeping actions to clean up the controversy-ridden technical intelligence agency NTRO (National Technical Research Organization) including disciplinary proceedings against its second in command. The move comes in the wake of allegations of wrongdoing, including alleged corruption in purchases, in the agency.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Jul 2011 10:22

^^ One pooch:

Is it even legal to name serving intel officers in pubic media?

TimesNow has been relentlessly following the NTRO scam( which is good) and yesterday, they were dropping names of serving NTRO guys and mentioning one of them is posted in B'luru currently. Also, they gave out the NTRO strength as 1100 strong.

Dont all these things come under OSA? People have been shafted fro smaller things than this.

Also, do the UAVs under NTRO come under IAF OrBAT or are these over and above the strength shown for IAF/IN/IA?

nits · Post by **nits** » 27 Jul 2011 12:11

sum wrote:Also, do the UAVs under NTRO come under IAF OrBAT or are these over and above the strength shown for IAF/IN/IA?

I believe they are not under control of IAF... same applies for NSG also after 26\11 in terms of there Air Asset...

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 29 Jul 2011 07:23

This is not good; lungiwallas questioning and challenging the service chefs for expressing their opinions.

Gap between Antony, service chiefs