Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Jul 2011 21:56

Shrinivasan wrote:There is still much confusion about whether Prahaar is a MBRL or a Ballistic Missile (we all know it is a SRBM).

Why it has to be this or that? Why can't it can be of both?

The Jury is still out on whether Prahaar will replace SMERCH or Prithvi-1. my take is, neither.

Yes. Depending upon the success of the system, other systems get their niche peripheral role. My thinking.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Jul 2011 21:59

chackojoseph wrote:India likely to test Prahaar Missile this week

More payload than Prithvi SS-150? ie greater than 1 ton? Interesting!

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 18 Jul 2011 22:23

The Russians have a missile along the same lines -- The Iskander which they used to devastating effect in the recent flare-up with Georgia.

John · Post by **John** » 18 Jul 2011 22:35

Isn't Shaurya our equivalent to Isklander?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 02:03

P Chitkara wrote:...would anyone have an idea/can speculate how many Pinakas are planned to be inducted eventually? For that matter, how many MLRS of this category are planned till the period 2020. Links or any other sources would help, if possible. We should have there in hundreds to boost the firepower for area saturation attacks.

As Rohit said, The intent was to have 4 Regiments before 2012 and we will meet this target. In the next five year plan too we should be targeting 1 Regiment a year. The concern here is the rocket itself, OFB is producing these @ 1K units per year, the army has been wanting around 5K per year, we recently saw that it might get doubled to 2K units per year.
there is also a parallel project to develop longer range and more destructive rockets.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 02:28

Kanson wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:India likely to test Prahaar Missile this week
More payload than Prithvi SS-150? ie greater than 1 ton? Interesting!

I doubt this statement... the logic is sound when it goes like this

Solid fueled motors give more thrust, hence the Prahaar is expected to be more sleeker, compact, lighter and carry more load than Prithvi

But the conclusion is wrong, A solid fuelled missile with the same fuel-mass as a liquid fuelled missile would be able to carry a larger load but Prahaar is a fraction of the weight of our Prithvi.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 02:30

Kanson wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:There is still much confusion about whether Prahaar is a MBRL or a Ballistic Missile (we all know it is a SRBM).

Why it has to be this or that? Why can't it can be of both?

Kanson, Pray educate us Jingos on how it could be both? are there any examples of a systems being a Ballistic Missile as well as a MBRL. I understand that a rocket launched from a MBRL takes a ballistic trajectory, but how does it qualify to be a Ballistic Missile?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jul 2011 06:17

http://georgiaupdate.gov.ge/doc/1000691 ... 017.11.pdf

per this georgia rebel site only 5 iskanders were used in the war. so Rus certainly was not using them like a cheap MBRL. there are pix and details in above link. with 400km range, it has to be a bigger weapon than Prahaar for sure. but the roles mentioned in above link will be similar - when targets are in range.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jul 2011 09:06

Singha wrote:http://georgiaupdate.gov.ge/doc/1000691 ... 017.11.pdf

per this georgia rebel site only 5 iskanders were used in the war. so Rus certainly was not using them like a cheap MBRL. there are pix and details in above link. with 400km range, it has to be a bigger weapon than Prahaar for sure. but the roles mentioned in above link will be similar - when targets are in range.

The missile (Iskander-E - the lesser range version) was offered to India but IA turned it down.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Jul 2011 09:21

Kason and Srinivasan,

You have missed the fine print of my article. Please see the "depending the operational requirement of the user." Solid fueled rockets give it a flexibility of the points I have made.

Srinivasan,

please google for solid powered vs liquid powered. This has already been debated when prithvi first flew.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 10:14

chackojoseph wrote:Srinivasan,
please google for solid powered vs liquid powered. This has already been debated when prithvi first flew.

will do CJ, thanks. BTB, did you the major announcement by DAE about a large find of Uranium in AP as reported by TOILet

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 19 Jul 2011 11:06

DRDO hopes to impress Army with Prahaar punch; demo launch of tactical missile on July 21

that this short-range missile is capable of hitting targets at a minimum distance of 50 km and maximum of 150 km.“Today we don’t have a good tactical missile for any conventional role. The Russian-made Smerch has a range of 90 km. Prahaar will be in the 90-plus-km-class, capable of carrying a payload of 200-250 kg,” sources tell Tarmak007. Prahaar is an offshoot of India’s AD programme. “It is a spin-off programme – a conversion of endo-atmospheric interceptor used for the AD,” sources said.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 11:42

suryag wrote:DRDO hopes to impress Army with Prahaar punch; demo launch of tactical missile on July 21
that this short-range missile is capable of hitting targets at a minimum distance of 50 km and maximum of 150 km.“Today we don’t have a good tactical missile for any conventional role. The Russian-made Smerch has a range of 90 km. Prahaar will be in the 90-plus-km-class, capable of carrying a payload of 200-250 kg,” sources tell Tarmak007. Prahaar is an offshoot of India’s AD programme. “It is a spin-off programme – a conversion of endo-atmospheric interceptor used for the AD,” sources said.

Thanks Surya for the update... This Still Does not explain the three stage...
The Advanced Air Defence or AAD is a SINGLE STAGE Solid fuelled missile. This missile after few successful tests is rumoured to have been extended to a 150KM range and named Ashvin. Prahaar could be the Canisterised road mobile avatar of this missile tasked to be a SRBM than a ABM. TARAMAK is a very good source and is not the usual DDM. Just like our own CJ, always dependable.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 11:50

I was wondering what is the significance of Prahaar when we have Smerch, Prithvi and Brahmos already available skirting the same Range (and deliver a larger destruction), never got the answer... TARAMAK brought it out neatly, giving me a Eureka moment... read on...
Desh has sort of been held hostage by the bear WRT Barhmos asking for an arm and leg for the seekers etc of the missile. Also its range cannot exceed MTCR limits... with Prahaar we get a domestic platform which gives us flexibility, a growth ladder and above all ability to show the ungli to the Bear...

Prahaar is an extremely cost-effective missile. It will be much cheaper than the BrahMos cruise missile. All components and critical systems for this missile are available in India and it can be produced in large numbers at very short notice making it extremely cost-effective

Advantage over Prithvi

Prahaar uses solid propulsion systems, it will be on a ready-for-launch-mode any time. There won’t be any storage issues and the missile will be completely maintenance-free... Load it on to a Canister system and fire it!... Being a road-mobile system, Prahaar can hit multiple targets at a time with the canister able to hold a maximum of 6 missiles.

Prahaar is a game changer for Desh, what do Jingos think?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 19 Jul 2011 12:15

I have not been very happy until now with DRDO's projects until Prahaar came. The projects it chose until now have been more of a catch up and for import substitution. Prahaar is an innovative weapon system and i think DRDO is probably crossing the threshold with product level innovation which is expected as they already have progressed beyond subsystem level innovation

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 12:44

suryag wrote:I have not been very happy until now with DRDO's projects until Prahaar came. The projects it chose until now have been more of a catch up and for import substitution. Prahaar is an innovative weapon system and i think DRDO is probably crossing the threshold with product level innovation which is expected as they already have progressed beyond subsystem level innovation

Agree with you... so far so good miles to go!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jul 2011 12:51

we should start work on upscaling the Pinaka into a Smerch replacement. the chinis are churning out 300mm systems and handing them out to friends and relatives.
the israeli TCS system fitted on some pinaka can be used in these large rockets too.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 13:26

Singha wrote:we should start work on upscaling the Pinaka into a Smerch replacement. the chinis are churning out 300mm systems and handing them out to friends and relatives.
the israeli TCS system fitted on some pinaka can be used in these large rockets too.

Good Point Singha...I proposed exactly the same thing yesterday... see below

SMERCH would continue to be in the Artillery divisions for couple more years, eventually it would be replaced by Pinaka-II (214mm, longer Range, higher yield explosives) or Pinaka-III (TBD - my guess is build over P-II into a 300mm variant like SMERCH).

DRDO is already working on a longer range 214mm Pinaka of range 90-100KM (lets call it P-II), this will be fired from the same launcher. We should probably work on a 16/20/24 tube version to bear heavier firepower.
A logical progression from there would be a SMERCH style 300mm MBLR with a 120-150KM Range with 12-16 tubes in each launcher. A major handicap for Desh is the production capacity to churn out Pinaka rockets, till 2010 it was only 1K / year, this is being augmented to 2K when our requirement is 5K. This has actually slowed the induction of Pinaka regiments (which will speed up in 2011-12 to complete our target of 2 Regiments in this plan period).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jul 2011 14:34

I wonder if AAD is now modified into a SRBM, why not modify it with a new active seeker to a very long range anti-LRMP/anti-AWACS/tanker type weapon of say 200km slant range? this would occupy the next higher tier from the LRSAM-barak (120km) , match the big missiles of the S300v family and it would already have the midcourse guidance and jam resistant datalinks from ground station for ABM role, plus a large warhead.

start it off in that mode, and when Astra-1 comes to IOC, replace the warhead section with a modded Astra-1 to get a desi equivalent of the raytheon SM-6 that will release the 2nd stage Astra vehicle to hunt agile targets also at that extreme range.

I dare say could be useful area denial weapon, endangering large volumes from airspace and pushing back vital enemy assets into sub-optimal positions by projecting its threat bubble.

a naval version could find use to supplement the Barak8, perhaps downsized a little bit to fit within a barak8 sized but deeper vls cell. could swat down LRMP / UAV without warning with mach4 dives from 100,000ft like a true AAM does.

John · Post by **John** » 19 Jul 2011 18:03

Singha wrote:I wonder if AAD is now modified into a SRBM, why not modify it with a new active seeker to a very long range anti-LRMP/anti-AWACS/tanker type weapon of say 200km slant range? this would occupy the next higher tier from the LRSAM-barak (120km) , match the big missiles of the S300v family and it would already have the midcourse guidance and jam resistant datalinks from ground station for ABM role, plus a large warhead.

AAD weights about the same as LRSAM?its unlikely it will have greater operational range. Especially if its re designed to accommodate a seeker/on board computer (additional weight), i doubt its engagement range would be any better than 100 km.

koti · Post by **koti** » 19 Jul 2011 18:31

I was shocked when I learned that Prithvi is(can be) being used as an Anti Ballistic Missile(Part of it say).

And now I hear this.... An Anti-BM Missile being used as a short range Ballistic missile or more absurdly a long range MRLS Guided rocket.

What's next??
We get to hear Nirbhay can be used as a torpedo....

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 19:21

koti wrote:I was shocked when I learned that Prithvi is(can be) being used as an Anti Ballistic Missile(Part of it say).
And now I hear this.... An Anti-BM Missile being used as a short range Ballistic missile or more absurdly a long range MRLS Guided rocket.

Koti, Prithvi is not used as an ABM, a modified Prithvi is used as a target for ABM testing. PAD and AAD originate from Prithvi & Agni roots (lets leave it at that!!!)
Regarding Prahaar, an Agni Predigree solid fueled missile being leveraged for an ABM role is again leveraged to be a SRBM. It is like "running home to mama". It is definitely not a MRLS, probably you can call it a Multi Ballistic Missile Launcher.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2011 19:33

koti wrote:I was shocked when I learned that Prithvi is(can be) being used as an Anti Ballistic Missile(Part of it say).

And now I hear this.... An Anti-BM Missile being used as a short range Ballistic missile or more absurdly a long range MRLS Guided rocket.

What's next??
We get to hear Nirbhay can be used as a torpedo....

With respect saar - if you know a lot about missiles and are saying this , then I will request you to educate me as to why you hold these views. If you don't know anything about rocket science, then I think you may well be talking complete rubbish.

Please explain your reasons for reaching the conclusions you have reached. I sincerely hope this is not yet another dogpile picked up at Pakdef to be dhotishivered on here and that I will hear the great technical reasons I am sure you have for saying all that

Aksara · Post by **Aksara** » 19 Jul 2011 20:02

i guess no tests for Prahaar till clinton madame is in town??

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Jul 2011 20:05

I fell that countries USA, even during the Cuban crises use to carry out Missile Tests. I feel we should remove the MEA from making decesions regarding Missile Tests.

koti · Post by **koti** » 19 Jul 2011 20:07

shiv wrote:
koti wrote:I was shocked when I learned that Prithvi is(can be) being used as an Anti Ballistic Missile(Part of it say).

And now I hear this.... An Anti-BM Missile being used as a short range Ballistic missile or more absurdly a long range MRLS Guided rocket.

What's next??
We get to hear Nirbhay can be used as a torpedo....
With respect saar - if you know a lot about missiles and are saying this , then I will request you to educate me as to why you hold these views. If you don't know anything about rocket science, then I think you may well be talking complete rubbish.

Please explain your reasons for reaching the conclusions you have reached. I sincerely hope this is not yet another dogpile picked up at Pakdef to be dhotishivered on here and that I will hear the great technical reasons I am sure you have for saying all that

It was my attempt at being humorous. It requires no further discussion.
And again I did find it funny when I learned that Prithvi was the base for PDV and AAD for Prahar.

I see a lot of NRE costs being saved this way.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2011 20:12

koti wrote:
It was my attempt at being humorous.

Ah OK. Thanks and sorry for misunderstanding.

koti · Post by **koti** » 19 Jul 2011 20:21

^^No offence taken sir.
I just realized I could not add the intended tone to those words.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Jul 2011 20:24

Shrinivasan wrote: Kanson, Pray educate us Jingos on how it could be both? are there any examples of a systems being a Ballistic Missile as well as a MBRL.

Examples: WS-2, HIMARS, BP-12/SY400...etc. LORA dimension turned out to be big enough to fit in MLRS. Otherwise you would have seen them in MLRS. Most of the tactical battlefield support systems are "Multiple launch systems".

I understand that a rocket launched from a MBRL takes a ballistic trajectory, but how does it qualify to be a Ballistic Missile?

I'm not equating like MBRL = Ballistic missile in the fashion you understood. I'm talking about the common roles shared by the same missile. Here by Ballistic missile i refer to Short range Tactical missile.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 19 Jul 2011 20:30

Shrinivasan wrote:
koti wrote:I was shocked when I learned that Prithvi is(can be) being used as an Anti Ballistic Missile(Part of it say).
And now I hear this.... An Anti-BM Missile being used as a short range Ballistic missile or more absurdly a long range MRLS Guided rocket.
Koti, Prithvi is not used as an ABM, a modified Prithvi is used as a target for ABM testing. PAD and AAD originate from Prithvi & Agni roots (lets leave it at that!!!)
Regarding Prahaar, an Agni Predigree solid fueled missile being leveraged for an ABM role is again leveraged to be a SRBM. It is like "running home to mama". It is definitely not a MRLS, probably you can call it a Multi Ballistic Missile Launcher.

Prahaar is a spin-off from AAD. I remember saying that AAD spin-off being in development for tactical (surface-surface)roles a while ago.This Prahaar will be having the speed of over mach 4 which gives the adversary very minimal time to respond.
I love to see a couple of batteries raining 10`s of Prahaars at begaristan in less than 2 minutes and keep asking for reload me reload me

AAD is not derived from Agni FYI. ITs a completely new breed.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Jul 2011 20:43

chackojoseph wrote:Kason,
You have missed the fine print of my article. Please see the "depending the operational requirement of the user." Solid fueled rockets give it a flexibility of the points I have made.

Thank you Joseph for bringing the article. If I'm allowed to make humble educated guesses about the missile system and about their possible payload, I feel the missile system that we are talking can take upto more than 400 kg as payload max to have optimal performance. If it tries to lift 1 tonne and more it is like attempting to cross over steep flyovers using Bajaj scooter riding with 5 adults.

JMT. So that question. Of course Army can have their own requirements.

SriniY · Post by **SriniY** » 19 Jul 2011 21:11

Can some one explain in a bit more detail how a surface to air quick reaction interceptor with a directional warhead <100kg has been modified to a surface to surface missile with a huge payload and much extended range?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Jul 2011 21:26

Kanson wrote:Thank you Joseph for bringing the article. If I'm allowed to make humble educated guesses about the missile system and about their possible payload, I feel the missile system that we are talking can take upto more than 400 kg as payload max to have optimal performance. If it tries to lift 1 tonne and more it is like attempting to cross over steep flyovers using Bajaj scooter riding with 5 adults. JMT. So that question. Of course Army can have their own requirements.

Sure. You are right.

koti · Post by **koti** » 19 Jul 2011 22:01

Repeated.

koti · Post by **koti** » 19 Jul 2011 22:02

SriniY wrote:Can some one explain in a bit more detail how a surface to air quick reaction interceptor with a directional warhead <100kg has been modified to a surface to surface missile with a huge payload and much extended range?

Not so complex as it seems.

As a BM, the Missile needs do go only a fraction of the actual AAD's max altitude of around 30 km in the direction of its target. The Ballistic trajectory makes for the remaining distance to range. This might allow us to increase warhead payload too as we saved in on the required fuel. And a warhead weighing around 300kg will be good enough if the missile is accurate enough(Brahmos).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jul 2011 22:07

A fusion of sensors for all SAM missiles for the future is what IA must seek after. Same would be the case for prahaar [150km range ground targets], where the next generation of targets are more likely to be stealthier than the current ones.

So, having a range is one aspect, and able to home on the NG target is entirely game changing plan, and not the range alone. The advancements in mmw, laser, electro-optical, infra, etc needs to connect to the target dot. Hope there is no technology that is 100% pure stealth.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 19 Jul 2011 22:12

I have been reading about people debating as to how 'prahaar' is a Rocket or a Ballistic Missile.
Firstly what is a BM if not a Rocket which follows ballistic trajectory and has some sort of guidance to achieve lowest possible CEP. Secondly, a MBRL system fires Rockets, which 'may or may not' be guided, however low CEP can be achieved by using ballistic calculations of Height, azimuth, angle etc.
So, why can't an MBRL be called a Missile system, hain jee??? Three reasons that I can think of, off the top of my head!
uno) because Unkil does not have a system classified that way?
dos) because we cannot as a SDRE mango people have intelligence and aptitude to think, conceptualize and create an entirely new system as the bhest has not tried this.
tres) because definitions are made only by the Franch or gora log!

SriniY wrote:Can some one explain in a bit more detail how a surface to air quick reaction interceptor with a directional warhead <100kg has been modified to a surface to surface missile with a huge payload and much extended range?

Any missile/raakit will follow a ballistic tragectory irrespective of it being a A2A or SAM. The difference is in the guidance system and the fuse. Example - raakit for SA has a guidance system designed to bring it closer to manouvering target which means you have moveable control surfaces, systems to move the moveable control surfaces, batteries/ power systems for these and of course the guidance system (IR/ Radar) which adds weight. Also, the fuse will be either a proximity type (which senses the distance from target) or direct hit type, both these are onmidirectional systems adding to the weight.
The same missile, if used in a S2S mode will have a different guidance system (control surfaces dont need to move very agressively) and also no need for IR/ Radar type guidance. SATNAV type GPS system or Inertial guidance with mid course correction is good enough. This frees up space for a higher weight warhead.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Jul 2011 16:44

chackojoseph wrote:India likely to test Prahaar Missile this week

As I said, this is a solid fueled prithvi

"This is a single stage missile fuelled by solid propellants, and being tested for the first time. It is surface-to-surface missile with a range of 150 km and can carry conventional warheads," a DRDO scientist said.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 20 Jul 2011 17:47

^So how are they fitting SIX onto one TEL? Are they using a mega-sized MAZ/MZKT chassis? If you look at the standard Tatra TEL for the Prithvi, then you can see that forget 6, even *2* Prithvis is a stretch...

I have to ask this - if it's solid fueled with different dimensions, weights, warheads, TEL - isn't it a different system altogether? Perhaps one derived from the Prithvi in the same sense as the F-16 was derived from the F-86, in that it is a state-of-the-art solution that addresses a similar need?

Anyway, name and heritage are not important. What's in a name? That which we call Prahaar would soil shalwars as well were it called by another name...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2011 21:48

I really doubt it would use the fat prithvi fuselage. has to be slimmer and longer and ofcourse a 250kg warhead vs 1ton on prithvi.
the fat ATACMS also fit just 2x onto their TEL. http://images.gizmag.com/hero/4301_20070582128.jpg

so does not sound like a simple solid-fuel conversion of prithvi.

am hoping it looks like the arrow2 system - 3.5t x 6 sealed cansisters raised in one block by a jack from a flatbed trailer. missile around 20ft long.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... launch.jpg