LCA News and Discussions

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Jul 2011 02:09

Shrinivasan wrote:
indranilroy wrote:you must have got confused with the dhruv-WSI cannon trials in Nasik
probably, more than the Druv-WSI, the what misled me was the next steps laid out like firing R-73 and firing gun, dropping dumb bombs and guided bombs, dropping filled / empty drop tanks.
Every other item except firing guns has been tested for the LCA.

no guided bombs have been dropped either.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 15 Jul 2011 17:12

Gun firing trials is a tricky business for such a light aircraft. There are many accidents and mishaps recorded world over. Our own HAL has lost planes and lives in doing such in-flight gun testing. If ever such event is planned, it will be with caution and with step by step approach.

I think, GSh-6-30 gun developed was modified for MiG-27 and it is not the same gun used in Naval application.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Jul 2011 17:15

[[Deleted after seeing Shiv's post]

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jul 2011 17:23

maybe special reduced charge ammo could initially to reduce risk...kinda like a HESH round for testing a APDS cannon.

John · Post by **John** » 15 Jul 2011 17:46

Kanson wrote:I think, GSh-6-30 gun developed was modified for MiG-27 and it is not the same gun used in Naval application.

It is the same gun used by Kashtan but the gun while effective has caused numerous problems for Mig-27.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 15 Jul 2011 18:29

^ I want to say, the "same" gun was modified to use in MiG-27. I don't know, you can call that as "same" gun.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 19 Jul 2011 07:23

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1659 Test Flights successfully(13-Jul-2011)
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-287,LSP1-67,LSP2-174,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-31)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1652 Test Flights successfully. (18-Jun-2011)
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-281,LSP1-67,LSP2-174,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-30)

One month and seven flights only

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2011 08:06

suryag wrote:
One month and seven flights only

Monsoon. May not affect LCA, but it certainly affects telemetry.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Jul 2011 08:17

SaiK wrote: Now we are adding conditionality to the argument. Why do you think he must be in front of me? okay, assume he is in front, and in my cross hair, still, by the acceptance of him lowering the carriage, my actions are always secondary considering his first move.

Are you saying, I am not in his cross hair, and that can be monitored on my LCA? that would be awesome dude!.. then we have it.

No sir I am not adding any conditions. If you are pilot and somebody is hot on your tail, you would know when your xchances are next to zilch.

HPCR Manual on International Law applicable to Air and Missile Warfare

Rocking the aircraft’s wings, lowering the landing gear and other signals (such as flashing of navigational lights or jettisoning of weapons) are sometimes cited as indications of an intent to surrender.

Albeit this is generally all in close quarters where the pursuant can see your actions.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 19 Jul 2011 08:23

shiv wrote:
suryag wrote: One month and seven flights only
Monsoon. May not affect LCA, but it certainly affects telemetry.

Ahh the monsoons i forgot about them

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Jul 2011 08:26

shiv wrote:I believe this "lowering of undercarriage" as a signal that a plane should not be shot down is only in the context of an unarmed aircraft overflying a prohibited area being intercepted. The pilot lowers the the undercarriage indicating that he is willing to land as demanded. He will still get shot up if he tries to get away after that.

In the context of an attack fighter over enemy territory being intercepted it makes no sense whatsoever unless he is defecting like Viktor Belenko. No defending interceptor is going to let an attacker "get away" simply because he gives up and lowers his undercarriage. He will get away and attack another day. Besides - where would he land? On the target he was attacking 2 minutes before he got into someone's crosshairs?

Of course shiv sir, the surrendering pilot becomes a POW, albeit if he is lucky. I mean if the guy pursuing the plane let's him live

. Generally they do, not because of humanity, but because it is a huge moral booster. The pilot is given clear indications of where to land. The plane is thereafter displayed as a war trophy.

Sometimes, to save the plane from getting into enemy hands for analysis, pilots eject as a sign of giving up. And there have been instances where the pilot has been beaten to death by the locals on the ground (who oblivious of what happened in the sky but know that this is one of the guys who was bombing them). A Iranian friend of mine had given a first hand story of the same when a pilot parachuted down to his village.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2011 09:25

indranilroy wrote: I mean if the guy pursuing the plane let's him live . Generally they do, not because of humanity, but because it is a huge moral booster. The pilot is given clear indications of where to land. The plane is thereafter displayed as a war trophy.

Indranil this is OT but I would dispute this statement. The real morale booster is shooting down the aircraft. Pilots are doing their job by shooting the other a/c and that boosts morale. Not by letting a chap go and claiming that he had lowered his u/c. If a pilot wants to give up and eject, he will give up and eject without lowering the undercarriage and hoping he does not get hit.

Outside of the Iran-Iraq war and Viktor Belenko there are very few post World War instances of voluntarily surrendering an aircraft to the enemy. An Indian Gnat landed in Pakistan in error, not in surrender and served as a morale booster and war trophy for Pakis. I sincerely hope you are not using that as a general illustrative example.

A Bangladeshi pilot tried to hijack a Pakistani trainer to India in 1971 with a Paki trainee pilot called Minhas ("Shaheed Minhas") who is claimed by Pakis to have crashed the aircraft killig himself an the hijacker.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Jul 2011 10:26

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote: I mean if the guy pursuing the plane let's him live . Generally they do, not because of humanity, but because it is a huge moral booster. The pilot is given clear indications of where to land. The plane is thereafter displayed as a war trophy.
Indranil this is OT but I would dispute this statement. The real morale booster is shooting down the aircraft. Pilots are doing their job by shooting the other a/c and that boosts morale. Not by letting a chap go and claiming that he had lowered his u/c. If a pilot wants to give up and eject, he will give up and eject without lowering the undercarriage and hoping he does not get hit.

Outside of the Iran-Iraq war and Viktor Belenko there are very few post World War instances of voluntarily surrendering an aircraft to the enemy. An Indian Gnat landed in Pakistan in error, not in surrender and served as a morale booster and war trophy for Pakis. I sincerely hope you are not using that as a general illustrative example.

A Bangladeshi pilot tried to hijack a Pakistani trainer to India in 1971 with a Paki trainee pilot called Minhas ("Shaheed Minhas") who is claimed by Pakis to have crashed the aircraft killig himself an the hijacker.

Yes let's stop the OT here ... by letting go I did not mean stopping the duel and the pursuer letting the defendant return to his airbase ... by letting go, I meant that the pursuer escorting the defendant to land at an airbase wherever the pursuer commands.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 10:50

Please come back to this thread for LCA related discussions, maybe this discussion can be moved to a general discussions thread. thanks guys. Sorry for acting like an Admin.... Neither of you are letting GO

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 19 Jul 2011 11:18

Shrinivasan wrote:Please come back to this thread for LCA related discussions, maybe this discussion can be moved to a general discussions thread. thanks guys. Sorry for acting like an Admin.... Neither of you are letting GO

Can you suggest something to talk about then? We are all eagerly waiting for so many LCA related developments that it's almost too much for a jingo to handle.

First flight of factory-manufactured LSPs
First flight of LCA-Navy
MMR finalisation and validation
Guided air-to-air missile launch and target destruction
Live gun trials
Wake penetration trials
Flight envelope maximisation
On-board oxygen generator (OBOGS) for longer flight durations

I'm sure I've missed some things, but these are the important ones off the top of my head. If there is no news of progress then I'm happy to read about undercarriages

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 11:54

PratikDas wrote:Can you suggest something to talk about then? We are all eagerly waiting for so many LCA related developments that it's almost too much for a jingo to handle.
First flight of factory-manufactured LSPs

First flight of LCA-Navy

MMR finalisation and validation

Guided air-to-air missile launch and target destruction

Live gun trials

Wake penetration trials

Flight envelope maximisation

On-board oxygen generator (OBOGS)

I am glad you bought this up, appreciate putting together a list... Proposing your ideas on any of these would be a good idea, comparing with other single engined platforms around the world, issues faced by other players during testing. spin-offs for LCA from MMRCA... Even as we wait for updates from ADA on LSP6/7/8, there are plenty of new pics and data propping up in tejas.gov.in.
Other Threads are running amock with updates.. head there are immerse yourself.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 19 Jul 2011 12:04

tejas.gov.in is down for maintenance

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 19 Jul 2011 15:02

Shiv sir,
Actually there have been numerous defections in the cold war, by all sides involved.
List of Defections from wikipedia
Sorry about the OT.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 19 Jul 2011 17:49

PratikDas wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:Please come back to this thread for LCA related discussions, maybe this discussion can be moved to a general discussions thread. thanks guys. Sorry for acting like an Admin.... Neither of you are letting GO
Can you suggest something to talk about then? We are all eagerly waiting for so many LCA related developments that it's almost too much for a jingo to handle.

First flight of factory-manufactured LSPs

First flight of LCA-Navy

MMR finalisation and validation

Guided air-to-air missile launch and target destruction

Live gun trials

Wake penetration trials

Flight envelope maximisation

On-board oxygen generator (OBOGS) for longer flight durations
I'm sure I've missed some things, but these are the important ones off the top of my head. If there is no news of progress then I'm happy to read about undercarriages

What does first flight of factory-manufactured LSPs mean? All LSPs are manufactured in the HAL factory. Do you mean SPs?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 19 Jul 2011 18:45

merlin wrote:
PratikDas wrote: ...
Can you suggest something to talk about then? We are all eagerly waiting for so many LCA related developments that it's almost too much for a jingo to handle.

First flight of factory-manufactured LSPs

First flight of LCA-Navy

MMR finalisation and validation

Guided air-to-air missile launch and target destruction

Live gun trials

Wake penetration trials

Flight envelope maximisation

On-board oxygen generator (OBOGS) for longer flight durations
I'm sure I've missed some things, but these are the important ones off the top of my head. If there is no news of progress then I'm happy to read about undercarriages
What does first flight of factory-manufactured LSPs mean? All LSPs are manufactured in the HAL factory. Do you mean SPs?

I'm referring to this comment from P.S. Subramanyam himself:

Productionisation is a gradual process. The LSP-7 and LSP-8 aircraft will be very close to the final version, not just in terms of the design, but also in terms of how they are manufactured. As things stand now, the LSP-7 will fly in August and the LSP-8 in November

Source: TarmAK007

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 19 Jul 2011 22:31

Wasn't there a news item sometime back that LCA wasn't cleared yet for all weather operations as the lightning tests weren't completed yet? I believe some people were injured too when doing lightning test on LCA at ADA.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 19 Jul 2011 22:39

^^^ the lightning test that caused the injury was conducted on the drop tank. The injury was caused during some pre-test checks and was not related to the drop tank as such.

The airframe as such should be lightning worthy and AFAIK the lightning tests on the airframe were done in/prior to TD stage on the TD airframes

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 20 Jul 2011 12:25

putnanja wrote:Wasn't there a news item sometime back that LCA wasn't cleared yet for all weather operations as the lightning tests weren't completed yet? I believe some people were injured too when doing lightning test on LCA at ADA.

There was this accident at CABS.
http://www.megamedianews.in/index.php/1 ... n-injured/

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 20 Jul 2011 16:54

Muthanna is NFTC chief

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 20:28

Neela wrote:
putnanja wrote:Wasn't there a news item sometime back that LCA wasn't cleared yet for all weather operations as the lightning tests weren't completed yet? I believe some people were injured too when doing lightning test on LCA at ADA.
There was this acc1dent at CABS.

Guys, this has got nothing to do with LCA or LIGHTNING tests. Please do not mix-up stuff, DDM lurking on our forums (considering there is an absolute paucity of news about LCA) might mis-report this as something maj0r for LCA.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jul 2011 04:41

pragnya wrote:Muthanna is NFTC chief

Muthanna takes over the mantle of NFTC at a time when the Tejas programme is terribly running behind the schedule. There were no major developments post-Aero India 2011 (February) with most platforms down for servicing. Top it all, the weather is acting against carrying out further flight trials. LSP-7, LSP-8 and NP-1 are next in line for their maiden flights, though many deadlines were set, have come, gone and forgotten. Now, the months of September (what happened to august launches as promised by Shri PS), October, November and December promises some action.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 21 Jul 2011 06:37

shiv wrote:A Bangladeshi pilot tried to hijack a Pakistani trainer to India in 1971 with a Paki trainee pilot called Minhas ("Shaheed Minhas") who is claimed by Pakis to have crashed the aircraft killig himself an the hijacker.

The above 'famous' incident apart, there was actually another Bangladeshi Pilot who succesfully defected to India in his Cessna Birddog AOP aircraft after killing the pilot, a Pak Army Major. This was just after the 71 war. The story has been forgotten in the sands of time...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 10:49

Jagan wrote:The above 'famous' incident apart, there was actually another Bangladeshi Pilot who succesfully defected to India in his Cessna Birddog AOP aircraft after killing the pilot, a Pak Army Major. This was just after the 71 war. The story has been forgotten in the sands of time...

Jagan garu, any open source info available about this incident. Jingos would love this... anything to shatter Ehh un dee.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jul 2011 17:54

AWST July 11 issue on the naval LCA."Ready for take off".
Key details:
After the first two prototypes,the rest will be powered by the F414,as the 404 is not capable of meting stringent parameters.6 ordered,ultimately will need 50.The aircraft will be tested at B'lore and later on the same land ski-jump facility being set up at Goa for the MIG-29Ks.Though not a "full-spectrum" fighter like an F-18SH or naval Rafale,it is seen as crucial for the country's industrial expertise.

atul.arvind · Post by **atul.arvind** » 22 Jul 2011 21:17

My day is made.....today saw tejas in its test flight doing some pretty good manoeuvres....

...but could not figure out whether it was carrying external fuel tanks or some pods..

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 10:09

Philip wrote:AWST July 11 issue on the naval LCA."Ready for take off".
After the first two prototypes,the rest will be powered by the F414,as the 404 is not capable of meting stringent parameters.6 ordered,ultimately will need 50.The aircraft will be tested at B'lore and later on the same land ski-jump facility being set up at Goa for the MIG-29Ks..

Thanks Philip for the update. Can someone post this article. I'm also looking for this.

Vikram W · Post by **Vikram W** » 25 Jul 2011 14:32

6 more days left in July. I hope we get to see LSP-7 or NLCA before July is out. It has been a really slow news year so far for LCA

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 08:12

Vikram W wrote:6 more days left in July. I hope we get to see LSP-7 or NLCA before July is out. It has been a really slow news year so far for LCA

Tejasawi Bhava, may you be blessed with the divine sight of Tejas!!! you will become Tejasamavi Tejaswi.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Jul 2011 09:39

Didn't see this article being posted before..apparently the IN will rename the Naval Tejas..wonder what that means?? As for the November first flight, I'm not going to hold my breath on that. If it happens anytime this year I'll be happy considering how ADA misses every single deadline they ever give out.

DATE:20/07/11
SOURCE:Flight International
Indian naval fighter could have first flight by November
By Greg Waldron

A two-seat prototype of a naval version of the Aeronautical Development Agency's (ADA) Tejas Mk I aircraft could have its first flight within the next three months.

The General Electric F404-IN20-powered aircraft is undergoing ground integration tests at Hindustan Aeronautics' facility on the outskirts of Bengaluru, said a senior official involved in the programme. This will be followed by engine runs and ground runs in the coming weeks.

"We expect the first flight within three months, but this is a bit optimistic because this is the first build of the airplane," said the official. "After the ground integration and engine runs we should discover if the aircraft is stable. After this we will conduct ground runs, followed by a first flight."

The official added that the ADA has asked the US Navy to help it define carrier suitability plans. He said the USA has been forthcoming with information.

The Indian government has approved two prototypes of the naval Tejas the first a two-seat trainer and the second a single-seat fighter. The official added that the Indian navy is likely to rename its version of the Tejas, which is also known as the light combat aircraft.

"Our focus is demonstrating the aircraft's carrier suitability," said the official. "We want to show the aircraft can take off from a ski-jump and perform an arrested landing."

In the first six to eight months after the aircraft's first flight it will undergo flight tests at Bengaluru. Then it will move to Hansa naval air station near Goa, where a special facility with a ski-jump and arresting gear is being constructed with equipment from Russia.

Before a full arrested landing takes place, taxi-engagement and carrier-style approaches with the hook extended will take place.
....

"This is the first time India is developing a naval aircraft, so it will be challenging," the official said.

link

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 10:54

Kartik wrote:The official added that the ADA has asked the US Navy to help it define carrier suitability plans. He said the USA has been forthcoming with information

This is sure sign that the project is chugging along nicely. US of A would never be forthcoming with anything if desh is struggling to achieve something. Once we are close to testing something, they'll dangle some shiny brochures before the services or sanction desh.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 26 Jul 2011 12:22

There was news today on MMRCA numbers. They may be increased if the LCA or FGFA is delayed. The MoD may be just hedging a risk but still one is left wondering what was the need of pronouncing it publicly or officially. Don’t know about the FGFA but are any delays foreseen with LCA as well?

Hope the MkII turns up on time.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 12:39

P Chitkara wrote:There was news today on MMRCA numbers. They may be increased if the LCA or FGFA is delayed. The MoD may be just hedging a risk but still one is left wondering what was the need of pronouncing it publicly or officially. Don’t know about the FGFA but are any delays foreseen with LCA as well?
Hope the MkII turns up on time.

hedging, posturing, Dothi Shiver, negotiating gambit... whatever you call it... nothing is official till an MOD/IAF spokesman, RM, Sec Defence or IAF chief announce it. Even then it could be modified at later date. chillaks.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Jul 2011 19:37

The performance parameters on the official Tejas website has been updated
http://www.tejas.gov.in/specifications/ ... mance.html.

It is +8g to -3.5g

Also there were a few questions raised about the two mysterious notches in the underbelly just before the engine exhaust nozzle ... here comes the answer ... for camera housing!

For people who had not seen the practice bomb carriages ... one can have a look above

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 27 Jul 2011 00:01

Jagan wrote:
shiv wrote:A Bangladeshi pilot tried to hijack a Pakistani trainer to India in 1971 with a Paki trainee pilot called Minhas ("Shaheed Minhas") who is claimed by Pakis to have crashed the aircraft killig himself an the hijacker.
The above 'famous' incident apart, there was actually another Bangladeshi Pilot who succesfully defected to India in his Cessna Birddog AOP aircraft after killing the pilot, a Pak Army Major. This was just after the 71 war. The story has been forgotten in the sands of time...

Dear Jagan,

Why would a Bangladeshi pilot defect after the war?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 27 Jul 2011 00:21

Aditya G wrote:
Jagan wrote:The above 'famous' incident apart, there was actually another Bangladeshi Pilot who succesfully defected to India in his Cessna Birddog AOP aircraft after killing the pilot, a Pak Army Major. This was just after the 71 war. The story has been forgotten in the sands of time...
Dear Jagan,

Why would a Bangladeshi pilot defect after the war?

..to get to his 'hometown'

(Gotta move this to the history thread )