Indian Army: News & Discussion

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 09:35

VinodTK wrote:Antony gags Army, Navy, Air Force
"No one in the military should speak out-of-turn on contentious issues or policies which are still being formulated," said an official. Despite repeated attempts, Antony himself could not be contacted to explain the rationale or the immediate provocation for the directive.

Something seriously brewing for such a gag order to be issued or is it DDM as usual? This doesn't look like appeasing Pukes for the piss process to continue... something far more "significant" is in the offing, cannot put a finger on the direction it will take... interesting times ahead if this is indeed true.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 21 Jul 2011 01:01

What is brewing is that the turf war between civilians and military in MOD has taken a turn for the worse.

The civilian controlled MOD has actively started working against the soldiers. Yesterday, a MOD civilian press section posted a triumphant press release saying that they had managed to convince the supreme court to abandon constitution of an Armed Forces Grievance Commission, and that they had won a case against a war widow, for increase of her pension. A strange press release, as most ministries do not go to the trouble of crowing over the fact that they managed to successfully deny a war widow an increase in pension!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jul 2011 01:04

^^^ ASPuar Saab: Talking about pension, do you have an update about the one-rank-one-pension scheme? Is that still languishing with the Govt? IMHO, it should be implemented.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 21 Jul 2011 01:15

Its dead in the water. The govt has said they wont do it. Personally, I feel that if the logic that everyone else will want it is accepted, then so should the soldiers logic be accepted, that they should be compensated for their shorter service tenure. As such, they should be given a gratuity equivalent to their pay they would have earned if allowed to continue in service till 60.

For Eg: A commandant in the Coast Guard, can serve till 60.

A Captain in the navy can serve till 54 only.

Therefore, give the captain 6 years pay as compensation when he is retired.

A constable in the police can serve till 60.

A jawan in the army (if he receives no promotion) can serve till 35. Give him 25 years pay when he leaves! Or else, give him an improved pension!

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 21 Jul 2011 18:46

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Army-chie ... 23724.aspx

Army chief VK Singh to retire next year

Defence ministry on Thursday decided to consider Army Chief Gen VK Singh's date of birth as 1950 according to sources. He will now retire next year. On Wednesday, VK Singh directly obtained legal opinion on the controversy over his date of birth from former Chief Justice of India VN Khare - the third opinion in his favour after the law ministry put his year of birth at 1950.

The controversy arose in May 2006 when two different dates of birth (DoBs) for Singh were detected in the records of the military secretary's (MS) branch, which put his year of birth at 1950, and the adjutant general's branch, which put it at 1951.

Singh was promoted as army chief in March 2010 on the basis of his 1950 DoB. But a junior official of the law ministry in response to a Right to Information query supported Singh's argument that he was born in 1951, citing his matriculation certificate.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 22 Jul 2011 07:14

Army's 'Cold Start' doctrine gets teeth

:
The Prahaar gives a huge boost to India’s ‘Cold Start’ military doctrine. This method of war would be adopted as retaliation for any grave Pakistani provocation, such as another 26/11 Mumbai-style terror attack. Cold Start involves multiple, simultaneous invasions of Pak territory with quickly assembled Indian Army battle groups, well before Pakistani forces can reach the border and occupy defensive positions. The Prahaar would provide the army’s invading battle groups with lethal fire support, striking Pakistani headquarters far behind the frontlines, and destroying roads, railways, bridges and other communications infrastructure that are essential for rushing Pak forces to the border.
:
Further, the Prahaar’s range of warheads, which the DRDO has developed, gives the Indian Army multiple options. It could carry a cargo warhead containing bomblets that disperse over a wide area, killing any exposed troops. Alternatively, it could carry air-delivered mines, which spread across a piece of terrain, denying passage to enemy infantry or tanks. Or the Prahaar could carry a single, high-explosive warhead that can demolish even the best-protected target or critical infrastructure.

FREEING THE IAF
So far, many of these targets have fallen to the lot of the Indian Air Force. But in a Cold Start situation, the emphasis of the IAF, especially during the initial crucial days, would focus on attacking the Pak Air Force to prevent it from causing casualties in the Indian Army’s attacking battle groups or stopping their advance. By using the Prahaar against enemy entities beyond the range of artillery guns or rockets (30-40 km), or for interdicting enemy reserves and logistic columns far behind the lines, IAF fighters would be freed for “counter-air operations” against the PAF.

If, as is more than likely, the IAF buys the Prahaar in numbers, the missile could be effectively launched against forward Pakistani air bases, destroying fighters on the ground and damaging runways, air defence radars and air control networks. Currently, manned fighter aircraft perform these tasks, often at the cost of pilots’ lives and shot-down fighters.
:
:

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 22 Jul 2011 08:35

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/bu ... 21328.html

RIP brothers.
But why does it repeat?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Two-army- ... 95617.aspx

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 09:10

[quote="VinodTK"]Army's 'Cold Start' doctrine gets teeth[quote]
A decent write-up from Col Shook-law about Prahaar. the last line is lovely... "developed in TWO years".

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 23 Jul 2011 03:15

Tarmak007: Army wants LSVs for Special Forces

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 11:08

VinodTK wrote:Tarmak007: Army wants LSVs for Special Forces

I hope Ashok Leyland, Mahindras and Tatas submit a kick-ass LSV for this requirement. I would hate this to go to a Firnagi manufacturer. This is not a Buy-Indian category item.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Jul 2011 13:45

The Windy 505 was developed in a BRD of the IA. Did any on the IA BRDs attempt to develop a followup vehicle to the type.

The second question that I have is, globally the standard light utility vehicle is converted to the role envisiged by the IA. The reason is to have commonality of logistics. Why is the IA looking for a vehicle that will not be common with the existing Light 4*4.

What I am trying to say is that make the axe or its cometitor the standard light 4x4 and then convert it to the LSV planned. instead of having a nich vehicle that will be avaliable in limited numbers and may be difficult to maintain as the spare parts may not be available 3 or 4 years down the line.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jul 2011 14:24

^^^Cost may be a factor....the standard light 4*4 of the IA is Mahindra MM550. The planned LSV unit price might not fit well with overall IA requirement...plus, LSV might be too optimized for a specific role. The Jeep performs many a roles in IA.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 14:51

Pratyush wrote:What I am trying to say is that make the axe or its cometitor the standard light 4x4 and then convert it to the LSV planned. instead of having a nich vehicle that will be avaliable in limited numbers and may be difficult to maintain as the spare parts may not be available 3 or 4 years down the line.

Pratyush, the range, payload or speed requirements might not be met by an AXE variety vehicle, hence this new requirement. Or it could be brochure ware someone has a vehicle in mind and has tailored the requirement to eliminate other options!!!

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Jul 2011 18:30

Even if they want a niche vehicle for the LSV role, then they can ask TATA or Mahindra to modify an existing design to the requirement so that the range, payload and speed parameters are met.
Given the vast experience behind these two automobile behemoths, they should be able to get something that satisfies them.

Gurulog,
Any idea on what happened to Windy and its sister vehicle that were developed by the BRD's of the army???

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Jul 2011 19:17

Shrinivasan wrote: Pratyush, the range, payload or speed requirements might not be met by an AXE variety vehicle, hence this new requirement. Or it could be brochure ware someone has a vehicle in mind and has tailored the requirement to eliminate other options!!!

That may be, but the US army uses the Hmwvee and the UQ army uses the Range rover. The French (Panhard VAB??)and the Germans (MERK 4*4) in that particular role utilize the standard Off road vehicle for similar roles. They do have niche vehicles in terms of the Dingo and the Fenec but they have a different role. The UQ Supcat is some thing that comes to mind as a niche vehicle. But no reason why the 2 ton AL truck made by the VFJ can't play that (Supcat's role) role in the IA with minor modifications.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Jul 2011 19:19

rohitvats wrote:^^^Cost may be a factor....the standard light 4*4 of the IA is Mahindra MM550. The planned LSV unit price might not fit well with overall IA requirement...plus, LSV might be too optimized for a specific role. The Jeep performs many a roles in IA.

What I am thinkig is that the Jeep will need to be replaced in the next 5 years or so. That being the case the AXE or similar competing vehicle be used to replace the Jeep and also be modified for the LSV role.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Jul 2011 19:23

Bala Vignesh wrote:Even if they want a niche vehicle for the LSV role, then they can ask TATA or Mahindra to modify an existing design to the requirement so that the range, payload and speed parameters are met.
Given the vast experience behind these two automobile behemoths, they should be able to get something that satisfies them.

Gurulog,
Any idea on what happened to Windy and its sister vehicle that were developed by the BRD's of the army???

Both the companies along with L&T and AL are in the compitition for the LSV. That is not the Issue. The issue is that it will be too much of niche vehicle that may not be supportable as it has gone out of production or due to similar reason. However, if the LSV is a modification of an existing IA vehicle, then, the LSV can be supported by the Base workshop with minimum efforts as its spare parts are common with the rest of the Army 4x4 pool.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Jul 2011 21:13

Family contradicts J&K woman's version of rape charge by army men

Saturday, Jul 23, 2011, 17:16 IST Place: Srinagar |

The rape controversy took a new turn when the husband and mother-in-law of the woman claimed before police that she suffered from mentally illness and was at her home home in South Kashmir on the day she claimed she was sexually abused.

The statement of the family members of Ruqaya, 32, goes contrary to her claim that she was picked up by two men in uniform on July 19 and allegedly gang-raped for two days before being let off on July 21.

In her statement to the Special Investigation Team (SIT) yesterday, Amina Bi, mother-in-law of the alleged victim, said that her daughter-in-law went missing on the morning of July 20 and not evening of July 19.

"She (Ruqaya) had gone to a spring at 7am on Wednesday (July 20) and did not return till late in the evening. We sent people in different directions but could not find her. She returned home the next day," Amina told the SIT officials.

Amina said she asked her daughter-in-law about her overnight absence but she did not say anything. "She started beating her chest and I thought she is having some pain. We took her to Manzgam hospital where she told the doctor that she had been raped," the woman said.

Ruqaya had alleged that she was kidnapped by two men in uniform on the evening of July 19 and held hostage for two nights during which she was raped in a "Dhok" at Manzgam, 80km from Srinagar.

Ruqaya's husband Latief Ahmad also told the probe team that she was only missing for one night. The mother-son duo also told the SIT that Ruqaya was of unsound mind and was taking medicines for it.

The alleged victim was not able to give any answer to a question of the probe team as to why she had raised no alarm at the time of abduction even though her 'dhok' (mud house) was less than 50 metres away and her mother-in-law and husband were home at that time.

Asked if there was any movement of army or police around their area on the day the alleged rape took place, Amina said there was no such presence of uniformed men in the area.

"There was no one here...I would not make any false accusations," he said.

In response to a question by SIT officials, the elderly woman said she cannot say if her daughter-in-law had been raped. "Only she can answer that question," she added.

The allegations levelled by Ruqaya led to law and order problem in Manzgam area of Kulgam on Thursday and Friday, resulting in injuries to several persons. A government vehicle and private scooter were set on fire by the agitated protesters yesterday.

Army ordered an internal probe and state police had also registered a case against unknown people based on the complaint of the woman.

The medical examination of the woman has concluded that there were no marks of violence on her body including the private parts and there was a presence of dead sperms.

As a precautionary measure, the vaginal swabs of Ruqaya have been sent for further Forensic tests.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 24 Jul 2011 03:00

Indian Army beefs up night vigil to curb militants' infiltration in Kashmir
Daily India

Security personnel have also been specially armed with sophisticated weapons and technology, such as automatic machine guns, night-vision cameras and under barrel grenade launchers, to effectively combat the extremists.

Colonel Vikas Slathia of the Jammu and Kashmir Rifles told mediapersons that patrolling was the only way to militarily 'dominate' an area.

"We have to manage a very large area of responsibility and the only way you can monitor the entire area and dominate the entire area is by patrolling. They have to do patrolling by day, and by night," said Col. Slathia.

Despite the exhilarating scenic beauty in Kashmir, the region has been the focal point of militancy in the last two decades.

According to senior commanders of the Indian Army, several militant camps are actively operating in the Kashmir valley, while more than 700 militants in Pakistan administered Kashmir are ready to cross towards the Indian side of the valley.

There are also fears of militants attempting to infiltrate again in the next few months, to avenge the deaths of their top commanders at the hands of the Army and other paramilitary forces.

On this score, Col. Slathia said that night patrolling was crucial since there were greater chances of extremists of crossing the borders after dark.

"Most of the activities of the terrorists, if they want to infiltrate into our country, they will prefer hours of darkness. So we need to dominate the area by patrolling, because at many places, you must have seen, there is a lot of forest, there is a lot of foliage, which provide enough cover to the terrorists which cannot be seen by our devices which are visual in nature, for which patrolling is absolutely necessary," he added.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 24 Jul 2011 03:36

In re the Kashmir so called rape case, that sh1t of a chief minister has said he will "punish the guilty". How does he know a rape even happened? Preliminary enquiry has revealed no signs of any such thing. He says the local army unit is small, and a test ID parade will be held, and the "guilty will soon be found".

How does he know anyone is guilty? He says "AFSPA or no AFSPA, we will punish them".

And all this time MOD's PR wing doesnt so much as put out a release saying "its too early to say anything, lets wait for the results of the investigation". Useless.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 24 Jul 2011 04:01

Meanwhile, CrossPosting from Main Site Issues forum for modification of Army Senior Officers list

1. The COAS is Gen VK Singh, not Gen D. Kapoor

2. Central Army commander is Lt Gen VK Ahluwalia
http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... Ylm62vI7g=

3. The northern Army commander is LtGen KT Parnaik
http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... 3c=&flag=p

4. The Eastern Army Commander is LtGen Bikram Singh

5. The Southern Army Commander is LtGen AK Singh
http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... Xu0Ncz+V4=

6. ARTRAC's GOC is LtGen Surendra Nath
http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... E4=&flag=p

7. South Western Army Commands GOC is LtGen SK Singh
http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... qc=&flag=p

8. Signal officer in Chief is Lt Gen P Mohapatra

9. DGEME is LtGen IJ Singh
http://eaglesassociation.in/

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Jul 2011 13:49

ASPuar wrote:In re the Kashmir so called rape case, that sh1t of a chief minister has said he will "punish the guilty". How does he know a rape even happened? Preliminary enquiry has revealed no signs of any such thing. He says the local army unit is small, and a test ID parade will be held, and the "guilty will soon be found".

How does he know anyone is guilty? He says "AFSPA or no AFSPA, we will punish them".

And all this time MOD's PR wing doesnt so much as put out a release saying "its too early to say anything, lets wait for the results of the investigation". Useless.

I fully agree with you ASPuar ji.

If the Army is not around to protect them, AFSPA or no AFSPA, some well spoken and personable politicians will be found hanging from the nearest lamp post.

Such is their universal popularity!

Done in by the very people whom they "claim to serve".

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 25 Jul 2011 12:47

Chartered flights to Thoise base suspended, Siachen troops suffer

Thousands of troops serving on the icy frontiers of the Siachen glacier are being forced to take a circuitous road journey to reach the base camp of the world’s highest battlefield, as chartered flights to the strategic Thoise airbase have been suspended.
With a renewal contract stuck since June, the chartered flights being used to transport a significant bulk of soldiers have been suspended.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 25 Jul 2011 21:59

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Career-bo ... 25500.aspx

The Armed Forces Tribunal has ruled that All army medical corps officers should receive the Double Assured Career Progression Scheme benefit, which has been extended to ALL other central govt officers already for the last few years by the VI Pay Commission.

Apparently the Principal Personnel officers committee had put the matter on hold until other matters could be resolved.

If implemented, an Army doc will receive the same pay as a Joint Secretary or a Major General, when he or she has completed 20 years of service.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 08:27

ASPuar wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/Career-bo ... 25500.aspx

The Armed Forces Tribunal has ruled that All army medical corps officers should receive the Double Assured Career Progression Scheme benefit, which has been extended to ALL other central govt officers already for the last few years by the VI Pay Commission.

Apparently the Principal Personnel officers committee had put the matter on hold until other matters could be resolved.

If implemented, an Army doc will receive the same pay as a Joint Secretary or a Major General, when he or she has completed 20 years of service.

Good move, hopefully they would address the "one rank one pay/Pension" issue also soon. I met one ex-servicemen here in Khanland, I was telling his about Bharat-Rakshak and about what we talk about. He was nostalgic about his days in the services and does not want talk much about where he was posted. One this he said is that he used to take long rides in a Johnga along with Royalty west of the Thar desert when Enterprise was trying to sail into the Bay of Bengal. Sort of like a Royal Safari. His favorite color is Purple. He was ruing about "One Rank One Pension" but he is still proud of his Army. No Regret whatsoever in the 8o+ year old man.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 08:31

ASPuar wrote:If implemented, an Army doc will receive the same pay as a Joint Secretary or a Major General, when he or she has completed 20 years of service.

The problem with Medical Corps in Armed Forces is, these doctors and nurses are some of the best and give up a lucrative career in private practice to serve the nation, if they are paid a pittance and given the short stick, they lose motivation, which is probably one of the few things they have. With features like these, they can retain good doctors in the services. Young doctors are fine for the field, we need these experienced ones to treat the wounded brought back to the base hospitals and HQs to get out boys (and Girls) back in shape.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 26 Jul 2011 08:39

Shrinivasan wrote:Good move, hopefully they would address the "one rant one pay/Pension" issue also soon. I met one ex-servicemen here in Khanland, I was telling his about Bharat-Rakshak and about what we talk about. He was nostalgic about his days in the services and does not want talk much about where he was posted. One this he said is that he used to take long rides in a Johnga along with Royalty west of the Thar desert when Enterprise was trying to sail into the Bay of Bengal. Sort of like a Royal Safari. His favorite color is Purple. He was rueing about "One Rank One Pension" but he is still proud of his Army. No Regret whatsoever in the 8o+ year old man.

Shrinivasanji,
Advice you to correct this spelling mistake and run a spell check on all your post, to ensure you can't be misunderstood on your views.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 26 Jul 2011 09:13

While all you arm chair jernails are living the delusional life dreaming of indias grandeur, the realists in goverment have it all planned out
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/govt-rejects-gen-v-k-singhs-request-to-attend-meet-of-pacific-army-chiefs/822338/

the forum has confirmed participation from 23 Army chiefs, including from China and, possibly, Pakistan which makes it an extremely useful platform.
The conference is being sponsored by the US Pacific Command — this, sources said, is believed to be a factor for the MoD which believes India should not be seen “actively” involved in US efforts and, thereby, signal that it’s part of any particular grouping. It’s learnt that Gen Singh has written to Defence Minister A K Antony arguing that engaging the US is important through these forums.
It’s unlikely that India will at all participate this time given that the conference is slated to begin on Wednesday

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Jul 2011 09:24

AdityaM wrote:While all you arm chair jernails are living the delusional life dreaming of indias grandeur, the realists in goverment have it all planned out
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/govt-rejects-gen-v-k-singhs-request-to-attend-meet-of-pacific-army-chiefs/822338/

the forum has confirmed participation from 23 Army chiefs, including from China and, possibly, Pakistan which makes it an extremely useful platform.
The conference is being sponsored by the US Pacific Command — this, sources said, is believed to be a factor for the MoD which believes India should not be seen “actively” involved in US efforts and, thereby, signal that it’s part of any particular grouping. It’s learnt that Gen Singh has written to Defence Minister A K Antony arguing that engaging the US is important through these forums.
It’s unlikely that India will at all participate this time given that the conference is slated to begin on Wednesday

Extremely short sighted and blinkered vision for an emerging "world power"

Afraid of it's own shadow.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Jul 2011 09:43

X-posting:

hnair wrote: Dont know the gradients around the area, but looking at the map above, there is a risk during peace time too. Chushul can get washed away after much work due to that natural dam at Spangur Gap. Spangur Gap seems like a funnel with the ALG forming its spout for a dam burst. Rather inconvenient. Even if we take the shallow part of reservior near to the dam, that is a lot of water up there. Plausible deniability by Panda.

maybe some other jingo with better sense of gradients can chip in?

All you need to do is use the terrain feature on the wikimapia and it will give you an idea of the gradient.

Check the same map here: http://wikimapia.org/#lat=33.5568457&lo ... chang%20la

For PLA to flood the area will mean that they themselves will not be able to then do much about it. Ideally, they would want to hold this area for themselves. This area is a vital lynchpin for outer defense of Ladakh.

I will post a detailed analysis in the IA thread, but a short analysis is as under but before that, please keep this map for reference:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=33.4841447&lo ... 10&l=0&m=h

If they take Chusul, they can move southwards and threaten Dungti. As you can see from the above map, Dungti sits on the main Leh-Dhemchok road (sothern Ladakh; scroll down on map) - the most vital communication axis in the entire sector. Nyoma ALG is stones throw distance from the place.

So, if I were a PLA commander, I'll put maximum pressure on Chusul with the aim of finally interdicting the Leh-Dhemchok road at Dungti. This way, I can meet two objectives - (a) Isolate Indian troops and formations in Southern Ladakh from rest of sector and put pressure on them. (b) Mount an offensive towards Leh along the Indus on Nyoma-Leh axis.

While, It may still be possible to sustain troops in Southern Ladakh from HP, still, it represents massive threat to both the sectors.

There is a third objective which PLA can achieve by taking Chusul - If you scroll up on the map along the Pangon Tso, you'll see Spangmik, Lukung, Phobrang and Chorkangma. This route passes through Marimik La (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsimik_La) and connects to the Chang-Chenmo Sector - the central Ladakh sector. My moving north from Chusul, PLA can effective block this axis and cut off any Indian presence east of Marsimik La - which is a very difficult terrain and difficult to sustain.

***PLease check this travelogue to get an idea about Spangmik-Phobrang-Marisim with some great shots:
[url]La.http://www.bcmtouring.com/forum/travelo ... t24293-29/[/url]

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 11:21

Bala Vignesh wrote:Advice you to correct this spelling mistake and run a spell check on all your post, to ensure you can't be misunderstood on your views.

Thanks Bala Sir, thousand apologies... Spell Check didn't catch my "rant"...

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 26 Jul 2011 11:32

No apologies required ji. I just didn't want some one to misquote you on this point and then start a flame war or something. That is all.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 12:02

Bala Vignesh wrote:No apologies required ji. I just didn't want some one to misquote you on this point and then start a flame war or something. That is all.

good point, my post with a poignant point about ex-servicemen would get lost in the NOISE of spelling Nazis.. I am more careful now before I hit the Submit button. I wanted to quiz this gentlemen some more but stopped myself to respect his wishes. I don't need to earn BR brownie points that badly.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 28 Jul 2011 05:11

Source:http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110728/j ... 300279.jsp
Srinagar, July 27: A junior commissioned officer was killed and two jawans were injured in a gunfight with militants at the Line of Control the very morning foreign ministers of India and Pakistan met in New Delhi to discuss confidence-building measures.
The encounter in the Machil sector of Kupwara began early in the day and, according to the defence spokesperson, it was continuing in the evening.
Defence spokesperson Lt Colonel J.S. Brar said the gunfight left JCO Amar Singh from the 57 Rashtriya Rifles dead and two jawans — Narender Kumar and Mahinder Singh — injured.
Sources said a group of militants crossed over to the Indian side of the LoC and were asked to surrender by the troops who had laid an ambush. But the infiltrators opened fire. “The gunfight is continuing,” Brar said.The two injured soldiers have been shifted to the 92 base hospital in Srinagar. The army has not released any figures on how many militants were involved in today’s ambush.
The military has earlier claimed the militants made several infiltration bids this year but not succeeded so far, though Jammu and Kashmir police officers claim some militants have managed to enter the Valley.The army’s 15 Corps chief Lieutenant General Syed Ata Hasnain recently said that 700 militants in 42 terror camps were waiting to cross over from the other side.
Today’s gunfight assumes significance as two countries today agreed to strengthen co-operation on counter-terrorism including among relevant departments as well as agencies to bring those responsible for terror crimes to justice.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Jul 2011 05:33

From Orbat.Com:

Your Editor, who used to keep a close eye on China's army TOEs, remembers all the way into the mid-1980s a Chinese infantry regiment had - wait for it - 30 trucks. China's logistics situation re Tibet was so bad you could have used every truck in the PLA and you couldn't support 10-divisions in daily combat. Of every ton payload dispatched to the India front, an effective 50-kg would reach. The rest would have been lost in fuel, spare parts, and engineering supplies. To Editor, 1980 is like yesterday. But today - to put it mildly - things have changed quite dramatically. with just one military train a day to Lhasa - if we recall right the line has a capacity to handle 18 trains each way each day, China could send 1600-tons/day of supplies each day. We don't want to get into this, its implications, or the implications of the massive road and airfield upgrade that has taken place in Tibet in the last 20-years. Suffice it to say in 1986-87 the Indian Army could have whacked the PLA out of Lhasa and the Aksai Chin in 72-hours. India still has exceedingly strong defensive positions that are being further strengthened, but as for an advance on Lhasa - in your dreams, baby.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 28 Jul 2011 05:41

^^ Kind of agree with the above comment. Advance to Lhasa type capabilities would be self evident, when instead of two mountain divisions, 10 get added. Then we wait for the right opportunity and conditions. Of course, not to say 10 mountain divisions is about the only thing that would be needed but is a benchmark for certain level of capabilities before such a venture is even dreamed of. Very few in our structures dream of this.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2011 08:06

>> Suffice it to say in 1986-87 the Indian Army could have whacked the PLA out of Lhasa and the Aksai Chin in 72-hours

assuming this to be true, would it have served any purpose to get drawn into a prolonged war with the PLA in tibet after this event as the chinese prepared their counterstrike? our lines of logistics to sustain ops in tibet then were certainly weaker than it is now...how could be sustain 10 divs in tibet with the precarious nathu la pass and north sikkim x-country as the only way there?

I have noticed orbat.com has a tendency to overstate past indian capabilities perhaps as a literary device to draw attention to present conditions and the need for urgent reforms...the good news is AHQ and MOD are doing the necessary steps now after a long decade+ of slumber and pak-fixation. the bad news is PLA has vastly improved their situation and are planning railway lines parallel to the india and nepal borders.

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 28 Jul 2011 13:33

Hi Friends,

I am a newbie and one newbie question.

I have heard and read a lot about the chinese railway lines along our border in tibet and our eastern borders with China and it is being stated that this wound give PLA with very good logistical advantage.

I think, railway lines in tibet and our eastern mountainous areas would invariably involve a lot of railway bridges and support structures and these would be the very first areas to be attacked when hostilities begin. When under attack it would take at least weeks, if not months, to reconstruct these bridges as they need to be strong for heavy rail traffic, unlike when compared to road bridges.

But in case of road networks, even if a section of the road is rendered useless, then we would mostly circumnavigate that section, although through a not very well laid road. So, in crunch situations, aren't road networks better than rail networks.

Of course, rail networks have the speed advantage and also we can stock a lot of logistics before the hostilities begin.

Any thoughts on this aspect from gurus.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. If this question doesn't belong to this thread, mods please move them to the appropriate thread. ThanQ once again.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Jul 2011 14:51

Singha wrote:>> Suffice it to say in 1986-87 the Indian Army could have whacked the PLA out of Lhasa and the Aksai Chin in 72-hours

assuming this to be true, would it have served any purpose to get drawn into a prolonged war with the PLA in tibet after this event as the chinese prepared their counterstrike? our lines of logistics to sustain ops in tibet then were certainly weaker than it is now...how could be sustain 10 divs in tibet with the precarious nathu la pass and north sikkim x-country as the only way there?

You need to see the statement in context of PLA preparedness and not Indian. The problem for PLA has been to get into Tibet in the first place...forget the last mile connectivity. Also, nothing would have prevented Indians from drawing a formidable defensive line along a ridge...like what pakis tried to do in Kargil.

Now, the PLA would have taken their time to improve logistics (like they did before 1962) - may 6 months or 1 year - but we could have also done the same. Our logistic lines are that way much shorter...the Assam Valley is just next door.

I have noticed orbat.com has a tendency to overstate past indian capabilities perhaps as a literary device to draw attention to present conditions and the need for urgent reforms...the good news is AHQ and MOD are doing the necessary steps now after a long decade+ of slumber and pak-fixation. the bad news is PLA has vastly improved their situation and are planning railway lines parallel to the india and nepal borders.

You do a great disservice to the gentleman's knowledge of the subject matter. He has been studying the defence segment for decades now.....and amongst the only ones to have written books on the topic. He is the only one to have written a book on Operation Brasstacks and what it stood for - master Indian feint to take POK by staging massive wargame in plains and threating to slice pakistan into two. In the very same book (name: The War That Never Was - The story of India's strategic failure), he had said that considering the militarization across the IB and LoC, the next Indo-Pak conflict would happen either in Kargil Sector or South of Fazilka-Abohar. Kargil (and more so Batalik and Turtok) were important to check-mate India in Siachen.

We know what happened in 1999 and in Op Parakram, the thrust of Indian mechanized forces of exactly in the area he mentioned.

From wiki:

The Fourth Round: Indo-Pak war in 1984" by Ravi Rikhye. This 1982 book is a scenario for what an India-Pakistan war fought in 1984 might look like. Though it is no longer available, it will be republished in E-form in 2007.The war postulates Pakistan is about to succeed in its quest to develop nuclear weapons. An Indian air strike on its main R & D and enriched uranium production facilities at Kahuta leads to a retaliatory Pakistani strike against India’s most powerful symbol, its parliament. India then declares war.
Interestingly, the Indian Army’s Directorate of Military Intelligence recommended the book be banned on grounds it disclosed vital secrets. The Chief of Army Staff, however, declined such action primarily on the grounds that the book was simply interesting, harmless fun.

The book was the first the author managed to get published: his first, Pakistan Rearmed (1973) was refused clearance. He refused to submit for clearance two other books writing during the 1975-77 Emergency. Subsequently, his Militarization of Mother India aroused no comment, but his The War That Never Was, an analysis of the 1986-87 army exercises Brasstacks, Trident, and Falcon – which were really covers for actual planned offensives led to investigations by various government agencies and harassment of the publisher.

Try and get hold of both the above books and 50% questions about military strategy and geography (In Indo-pak context) will be solved.

This is what he wrote couple of days back:

The entire Chinese High Command publically blows wind. That's what the East Wind is. They blow wind to assuage their ego and to justify their control of ordinary Chinese. But may we remind the Chinese people of something? Words aside, your leadership is so cautious that even during the 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pakistan Wars and the 1986-87 crisis where PLA sent eight divisions and several independent regiments to reinforce your front opposite Northeast India because Beijing was worried India was about to attack, Beijing did not make even one offensive move against India. Why? Because your High Command is realistic, and it knows opening fire creates situations where no one is in control any more and everything blows up.

Beleive you me, he knows his stuff.

PS: The books are out of publication.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2011 15:07

er I purchased and devoured that book in mid 1980s itself when I was in class6. the "descent into danger" 1st chapter as the Mi24s flit low over the trees to Kahuta followed by IL76 with BMD vehicles are truly a memorable one.