LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

[Indranil]

Hari Nair sahab ...congratulations to the LCH team and you!

1. I still don't see the new aerofoil stubbed wings ... how are they coming along?
2. If one sees the following picture carefully, one can see the hot engine exhaust plume blowing down after being reflected from the rotor. It makes the coconut tree behind the vertical stabilizer shimmer ... This plume still seems to have a sharp boundary (one can distinctly follow the right edge for example) ... Am I being just paranoid and this is as good as it gets? ... or is it the best that can be done with the budget (both weight and financial)? Or is it because the heli is just hovering? ... or is it because we are looking at a picture which captures a moment and the plume varies with time (e.g. based on the position of the blades vis-a-vis the engine exhaust)

Click to enlarge.

Thank you in advance.

[Bala Vignesh]

Hari Sir,
Welcome back.. Congratulations to you and the rest of the team on the TD-2's first flight.. And like everyone here has already said so, the digital camo is awesome..Thanks for explaining about the gatling gun.. No one is gonna ask about it now for sure..
Just one tiny request, though.. Could you please kindly edit the post so that it doesn't come out like me quoting the content, Sir.. ..

And this also happens to be my 1000th post on BR.. Yippee..

[Hari Nair]

@ Bala - sorry for that - reedited!
@ Indranil - the exhaust plume treatment has not yet been incorporated. Wings expected soon

[pradeepe]

Very nice...looks like a prowling sleek mean mouthed piranha. One has the legend of shredding a horse to its bones in seconds. Wonder what its airborne cousins future holds.

[suryag]

Naive question to Hari Nair sir - have all the sensors been fused, what weight reduction have we achieved on TD2(IIRC something 250Kg was quoted by Dr.Sampath)

For sake of posterity
India’s Light Combat Helicopter makes first flight

[Indranil]

thank you hari nair sahab ... your being here is such a boon to us mango people!

Sir, I have few questions about the digital camo:

1. Is this digital camo just optical? I was reading something on the Slovakian Mig-29 digital pattern and went on to read that for subsonic aircrafts such digital camo could lead 45% reduction is radio wave reflection as well ... Is this true about the LCH camo as well?

2. What are the three colours chosen for? dessert, vegetation and ....... Will we be seeing a few more colour combinations ... say for the snow peaked mountains?

As I have said before, I can definitely sleep well without knowing what I am not supposed to know.

This camo gives the LCH killer looks, no matter what!

[Aditya_V]

Naive question here, how difficult will it be for HAL to put a Stealth Hawk or Camnche type covered titled Tail rotor, It could be very useful for pilots when tree hugging as the Tail rotor will guarded from hitting a stray branch.

[Bala Vignesh]

Aditya_Vji,
Do you mean a Fenestron?? Its a complicated design that has weight penalties along with cost penalties. So its better not to include it in the first attempt to design our own attack heli. Probably the future variants of LCH might sport them, seeing that they enhance stealth and safety.

[Shrinivasan]

@ Bala - sorry for that - reedited!
@ Indranil - the exhaust plume treatment has not yet been incorporated. Wings expected soon

Thanks for all the updates Sir... we have been breaking our head on an optimal gun configuration for LCH.
Hope these incremental upgrades happen soon. All the best... We are all proud of our LCH. Some Boeing helo guys saw this and were FLOORED.

[Aditya_V]

Aditya_Vji,
Do you mean a Fenestron?? Its a complicated design that has weight penalties along with cost penalties. So its better not to include it in the first attempt to design our own attack heli. Probably the future variants of LCH might sport them, seeing that they enhance stealth and safety.

Yes, I also understand including one will have cost and timeline issues which HAL must have considered, I hope later versions of the LCH get one.

[koti]

Here is a good link I have stumbled upon. Hope not a re-post.
http://weapons.technology.youngester.co ... ombat.html

[pragnya]

HAL Chairman and Managing Director (CMD) Ashok Nayak told India Strategic in interviews at the Paris Air Show and New Delhi that the second aircraft was a "considerable improvement" over the first prototype as HAL and DRDO scientists had been able to achieve substantial weight reduction.

"Not only that, the human and weapons payload capacity of the rotorcraft had already been exceeded than the parameters mandated by the Indian Air Force (IAF)."

The first helicopter was flown last year, for 20 minutes in the first flight, and the second June 2011-end. The combined hours that the two helicopters, prototype-1 and prototype-2, have done by now are 76.

Mr Nayak said the second prototype was flown to a height of 1.5 km with an All Up Weight (AUW) of 4900 kgs. The parametres successfully tested by HAL test pilots included general handling, slow speed handling, basic Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS) checks, up to 1.5 km altitude and with 60 degree bank turns.

Pictures of the helicopter in flight, with digitally designed camouflage paint, have been made available to India Strategic. Later, radar absorbent coating to increase its stealth features would also be added.

A few more prototypes and several more tests are scheduled before the LCH gets into the production line and becomes operational in about five years. The initial operational clearance (IOC) is however targeted to be achieved in 2013, Mr Nayak said adding that the IAF is actively involved in all stages of the aircraft testing and system approvals.

on attack helis -

IAF however has already submitted its decision to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), which is due to announce the winner of this competition any time.

India flies its second Light Combat Helicopter prototype

[neerajb]

Well gun pods are a whole different thing, as far as weight is concerned, since they come under payload and are not permanent fixtures on the aircraft unlike the chin guns.
The recoil factor still matters but seeing that its a 12.7mm gun the effect will not be as pronounced as that of 20mm canons or higher.

Bala, neither example I showed is a 12.7mm gun, the RU one is a 23mm and the JSF one is a 25mm gun. the Pod absorbs the recoil, which is the beauty of this podded gun.

Reminds me of my first semester professor who asked us this question, If you suspend a 5 Kg weight on a spring will it weigh lighter to one's hand holding the spring instead of directly lifting the weight? All those suspension systems will just decrease the impulse by increasing the time of recoil absorbtion but one way or the other, the propulsion system will have to compensate for the recoil.

Cheers....

[neerajb]

snip ....

Welcome back saar. Long time no see, looks like LCH trials are progressing fast!

Cheers....

[VishalJ]

Look at what the Neighbourhood just coughed-up

Pak Snipes Indian Dhruvs In Ecuador

The Pakistan government, through its press service (Associated Press of Pakistan), has made a stinging attack on HAL's flagship export, the Dhruv helicopter, suggesting that the small fleet that India sold to Ecuador a few years ago are now "beset with problems", including low availability, expensive spares, faulty after-sales service and over-invoicing by HAL.
HAL hasn't responded officially just yet, but will shortly.
See what you make of the Pak release. (A HAL source I spoke to said the tenor of the report "almost definitely" suggested a U.S. plant, with the APP a willing vessel).
Anyway, here it is in full: http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/07/pa ... uador.html

[andy B]

^^^^ Stinks of Khan dirty play...porkis are just the perpetual imbecile vehicle being used as Vishal has pointed out! There would have been much more hoo haa if this were true.

[saje]

^^^^ Stinks of Khan dirty play...porkis are just the perpetual imbecile vehicle being used as Vishal has pointed out! There would have been much more hoo haa if this were true.

Can't blame the poor Khan. With the LCH up and flying, soon we will have a piece of his attack helicopter market as well. As regards to the Ecuadorians, I think we should allow a couple of their ALH pilots to come and see the LCH... that should keep their air force interested in our choppers. Khan would have never given them Cobras or Apaches, or given them old ones for the price of new! BTB, what might be the unit cost of the LCH vis-a-vis the ALH?

[AdityaEngineer]

Well today after 2-3 months i have seen dhruv flying feels good rains have gone and helicopters have come back .We cannot really doubt the Dhruv ,it has got excellent sortie rate.

[Indranil]

last weekend I was in Bangalore ... I was at old airport road ... I saw the WSI flying on sat around 10:30 AM ... later that day I saw another Dhruv ... so yes they are certainly doing the rounds!

[Bala Vignesh]

Seems to me that the Dhruvs were undergoing pre-delivery checks..
A couple of weeks back saw a couple of Dhruvs hovering in the old airport near the NFTC end and then go out for a small circuit and come back and hover. They would then take off again, hover for some time and then come back. The process continued for some time. I saw an AAC bird and an IAF bird carrying out this process multiple times.

[Kersi D]

Very nice...looks like a prowling sleek mean mouthed piranha. One has the legend of shredding a horse to its bones in seconds. Wonder what its airborne cousins future holds.

This one can probably shred the donkey next door

K

[ramana]

you mean khar?

khar = donkey in Persian. But I neednt tell you that!

[Philip]

The crash of a US Chinook in Af.,brought down by a MANPADS/RPG needs to be examined in detail;,as this type is a contestant for the heavy-lift helo for the IAF.The Chinook's have been shot down/crashing regularly in Afghanistan,Iraq and elsewhere.They are either unreliable in the harsh ennvironment of the region,plus are susceptible to being easy kills for small arms fire and anti-helo missiles and AA fire.This could mean a lack of good missile detection sensors/decoys,armour,etc.The IAF would face a far greater arenal of MANPADS,anti-air fire from Pak's huge numbers of MANPADS/AA guns.We saw how during the Kargil War an MI-8/17 was shot down.

[rohitvats]

The crash of a US Chinook in Af.,brought down by a MANPADS/RPG needs to be examined in detail;,as this type is a contestant for the heavy-lift helo for the IAF.The Chinook's have been shot down/crashing regularly in Afghanistan,Iraq and elsewhere.They are either unreliable in the harsh ennvironment of the region,plus are susceptible to being easy kills for small arms fire and anti-helo missiles and AA fire.This could mean a lack of good missile detection sensors/decoys,armour,etc.The IAF would face a far greater arenal of MANPADS,anti-air fire from Pak's huge numbers of MANPADS/AA guns.We saw how during the Kargil War an MI-8/17 was shot down.

[Asit P]

The Chinook's have been shot down/crashing regularly in Afghanistan,Iraq and elsewhere.They are either unreliable in the harsh ennvironment of the region,plus are susceptible to being easy kills for small arms fire and anti-helo missiles and AA fire.

Philip jee, in my humble opinion you are being too harsh. Unlike many other Helos which sit comfortably at their bases, Chinook has been taking part in active combat for quite some time. Hence, it is bound to get shot once in a while. But to say that "Chinook has been shot down/Crashing regularly"; is taking it a bit too far.

Anyway, it is apparent from the MMRCA deal that our Air Force does not give any undue preference to Uncle Sam, so Chinook's selection/rejection as a heavy lift Helicopter for India will depend exclusively on its merits/demerits.

[Bala Vignesh]

Asit Pji,
While Uncle Sam was taken out of MMRCA contest, he's been compensated with a plethora of other deals, mostly FMS. So we cannot say whether this deal will also be included in the "consolation package" to Uncle Sam.
While the Chinook is undoubtedly an excellent chopper, the baggage they carry in terms of the various agreements is too much, IMO.

[Asit P]

I completely agree with the unwanted baggage part of Uncle Sam in the form of CISMOA et al. My point was - Chinook being shot down at Afganistan does not make it a unreliable machine.

[Kersi D]

you mean khar?

khar = donkey in Persian. But I neednt tell you that!

Now now. Not that lady again. She's a nice girl next door whom you can take home to introduce to your mother/

K

[Kersi D]

The crash of a US Chinook in Af.,brought down by a MANPADS/RPG needs to be examined in detail;,as this type is a contestant for the heavy-lift helo for the IAF.The Chinook's have been shot down/crashing regularly in Afghanistan,Iraq and elsewhere.They are either unreliable in the harsh ennvironment of the region,plus are susceptible to being easy kills for small arms fire and anti-helo missiles and AA fire.This could mean a lack of good missile detection sensors/decoys,armour,etc.The IAF would face a far greater arenal of MANPADS,anti-air fire from Pak's huge numbers of MANPADS/AA guns.We saw how during the Kargil War an MI-8/17 was shot down.

Can you give us a list of all heavy lift helo shot down in "the harsh environment" or shot down in war / hostilities by "small arms fire and anti-helo missiles and AA fire", in the past say 5 years ?

Can you also list out the heavy lift helo used "the harsh environment" where there is "small arms fire and anti-helo missiles and AA fire" ?

Then we can conclude that Mi XWE and KA abc is a "much better" option than a Chinook.

Kersi

PS. You mean Mi (or Ka) helicopters have been shot down in combat ?

[Indaruta]

US Chinook crash just again shows the vulnerability of choppers, what is needed a modern day Shturmovik

[Bala Vignesh]

PS. You mean Mi (or Ka) helicopters have been shot down in combat ?

Didn't know Kamov had heavy helicopters?? But the Mil Mi26 has sure seen some fire and has been bought down at least twice i know off(remember reading something like this in wiki a few months back)
Once in Chechenya and once in Afghan, IIRC. In chechenya, it was bought down using a SAM

[ramana]

The crash of a US Chinook in Af.,brought down by a MANPADS/RPG needs to be examined in detail;,as this type is a contestant for the heavy-lift helo for the IAF.The Chinook's have been shot down/crashing regularly in Afghanistan,Iraq and elsewhere.They are either unreliable in the harsh ennvironment of the region,plus are susceptible to being easy kills for small arms fire and anti-helo missiles and AA fire.This could mean a lack of good missile detection sensors/decoys,armour,etc.The IAF would face a far greater arenal of MANPADS,anti-air fire from Pak's huge numbers of MANPADS/AA guns.We saw how during the Kargil War an MI-8/17 was shot down.

Philip, The M-8/17 in Kargil was shot down by multiple SAMs and didnt have teh cahff dispenser.

I suspect even this Chinook was shot with a TSP supplied SAM. Most likely by an undercover SSG unit. Lets wait for the results.

[Philip]

Ramanna,a US analyst on the BBC just now, said that the Chinook was a "clumsy" helo,questioned why the helo was used for the mission as it was vulnerable to various small arms fire and RPGs.This is not the first Chinook to have been shot down in battle in recent times.The IAF should seriously study its vulnerability when deciding on its choice for the heavy lift helo,especially if it intends to use it for special forces missions like that of the ill-fated SEALs.I think that it should also take a look at the EH-101s,which have been used very successfully in Afghanistan by British forces for special forces requirements.Since these are bing acquired for the VVIP sqd. and also in the running for a naval requirement,it is worth taking a serious look.

[Leo.Davidson]

Ramanna,a US analyst on the BBC just now, said that the Chinook was a "clumsy" helo,questioned why the helo was used for the mission as it was vulnerable to various small arms fire and RPGs.This is not the first Chinook to have been shot down in battle in recent times.The IAF should seriously study its vulnerability when deciding on its choice for the heavy lift helo,especially if it intends to use it for special forces missions like that of the ill-fated SEALs.I think that it should also take a look at the EH-101s,which have been used very successfully in Afghanistan by British forces for special forces requirements.Since these are bing acquired for the VVIP sqd. and also in the running for a naval requirement,it is worth taking a serious look.

EH101 or rather AW101 is not a heavy lift helicopter. Unfortunately for America, the step up from the Black Hawk is the CH-43 Chinook or the Ch-53 Sea Stallion which is only used by the Navy. I can compare your 'clumsy' statement with the Elephant, it may be clumsy right, but that's because of its size. But hell not other animal can be compared to it's practicability.

The heavy lift helicopter competition for INDIA, is between the Chinook & the Mi-26. The AW101 is not in the same league as them, FULL STOP.

[Leo.Davidson]

Philip, The M-8/17 in Kargil was shot down by multiple SAMs and didnt have teh cahff dispenser.
I suspect even this Chinook was shot with a TSP supplied SAM. Most likely by an undercover SSG unit. Lets wait for the results.

Actually it was downed by a rocket propelled grenade. And since they do not need target illumination - radar/laser, they are harder to detect. The reaction time is a few seconds and you've got to kill the projectile as no other countermeasure will work. Well the only other alternative is to dive, but that's like becoming the lowest hanging fruit on the tree.

[Katare]

A lucky shot of RPG will bring down almost anything, that thing can penetrate thick MBT armor so heli armor of any type is not going to work. Since helicoptors try to hide behind hills an abdul strandad on that hil will get lucky once in a while.

[Sanjay]

Can somebody tell me how many HAL Lancers are in service ? Have all AAC Cheetahs been so converted ?

[Philip]

The RAF has also lost 2 Chinook's in Afghanistan in recent times.The point I was making about examining the EH-101 was for special forces ops,not for heavy-lift alone.The MARCOS use IN Sea Kings and the EH-101 is a superior helo a better bet when used for special forces.The vulnerable "clumsy" Chinook cost the lives of 30+ US/Af special forces troops ,etc.These exceptionally valuable resourcs were put at risk in a vulnerable Chinook (analyst's view).Chinook losses in the conflict should be examined we are evaluating it,for its vulnerability,if we also intend to use it in similar manner to that of the doomed SEAL 6 mission.Sometime ago I posted a link to that classic pic of an MI-26 carrying a downed Chinook in Af-Pak!

[Surya]

Philip why stop at the EH101

please consider other alternatives like little helos which can carry 2 soldiers

a swarm of these will be more agile than the 'clumsy' chinook.

[nachiket]

Philip ji, can you please educate us on how a helicopter (clumsy or otherwise) is supposed to dodge an RPG round that the pilots may not even know is being fired at it.