Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 21:54

koti wrote:Not so complex as it seems.
As a BM, the Missile needs do go only a fraction of the actual AAD's max altitude of around 30 km in the direction of its target.

Complications arise for longer range missiles due to earth curvature... If you missile needs to have single digit CEP, Accuracy needs to be very high, hence the requirement for mid course correction, terminal corrections etc. With ABM systems becoming prevalent, SRBMs need to have capability to perform maneuvers have Multiple warheads and decoys.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 21:56

Jaeger wrote:^So how are they fitting SIX onto one TEL? Are they using a mega-sized MAZ/MZKT chassis? If you look at the standard Tatra TEL for the Prithvi, then you can see that forget 6, even *2* Prithvis is a stretch...

I have to ask this - if it's solid fueled with different dimensions, weights, warheads, TEL - isn't it a different system altogether? Perhaps one derived from the Prithvi in the same sense as the F-16 was derived from the F-86, in that it is a state-of-the-art solution that addresses a similar need?

Anyway, name and heritage are not important. What's in a name? That which we call Prahaar would soil shalwars as well were it called by another name...

Jaeger, it is not a stubby missile like the Prithvi, but a long and sleek missile which can be cannisterized. See a picture of AAD to realize its footprint.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 21:59

Singha wrote:am hoping it looks like the arrow2 system - 3.5t x 6 sealed cansisters raised in one block by a jack from a flatbed trailer. missile around 20ft long.

Spot on about a configuration similar to ArrowII. I would think the weight should be less than 3T, Brahmos which is a Supersonic, 300Km

range missile is 3T.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2011 22:08

yeah the kind of composite skins available now for missile fuselages might help. brahmos is all metal skin perhaps for heat resistance, but somehow sher khan uses composites on all 3 stages of trident-d5 missile (making it the fastest icbm allegedly around mach23, and light too)...so it can be done...its been done.

koti · Post by **koti** » 20 Jul 2011 22:12

Shrinivasan wrote:
koti wrote:Not so complex as it seems.
As a BM, the Missile needs do go only a fraction of the actual AAD's max altitude of around 30 km in the direction of its target.
Complications arise for longer range missiles due to earth curvature... If you missile needs to have single digit CEP, Accuracy needs to be very high, hence the requirement for mid course correction, terminal corrections etc. With ABM systems becoming prevalent, SRBMs need to have capability to perform maneuvers have Multiple warheads and decoys.

I am afraid this could be over complicating the SRBM sphere. SRBM's will be anytime less vulnerable then subsonic cruise missiles to Short range SA fire. MIRV'ing SRBM's(like Prahar) will increase their unit costs and defeat the very advantage of cheap long range guided artillery.

koti · Post by **koti** » 20 Jul 2011 22:17

Shrinivasan wrote: Spot on about a configuration similar to ArrowII. I would think the weight should be less than 3T, Brahmos which is a Supersonic, 300Km range missile is 3T.

If the weight is around 3 Tons, we could expect a warhead having far higher payload then the 300kg warhead Brahmos carries.
But I think the weight could be in the league of around 1.5 tonnes.
1.5X6 = 9Tonnes.

Which in turn could be based on similar vehicle as used for Brahmos LACM.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2011 22:20

..or more range than 150km. perhaps 3 configs of the {range,warhead} combo using the same airframe but some modular sections is best - with an eye to the future...juicy targets in tibet and yunnan could for example be deeper than 150km from firing point. also some areas do not have great roads to drive right upto the border.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jul 2011 22:25

again better active SAR imaging and locating radar is the key.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 20 Jul 2011 22:41

Prahaar Debut Launch Tomorrow

There have been indications that the Prahaar will be visibly similar to the Indian endo-atmospheric interceptor missile, though this is not confirmed. The team is ready for the missile's first test-firing tomorrow morning.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Jul 2011 01:11

Adding my 2 naya-paisa to the mix: the "omni directional" warhead comment points distinctly to an AAD ancestry (recall the gimballed-directional-warhead in the latest BMD test). But this also leads to another (possible) interesting conclusion - would an omni-directional warhead be useful without a seeker? If you are going to direct the explosion in a particular arc, you should know where the target is. Ergo: the Prahaar has some sort of a seeker/imaging mechanism.

Borne out by a comment from Dr. Selvaraj reported in yesterday's Chindu: ‘Prahar' missile ready to be tested

Dr. Selvamurthy said: “It can image, take out multiple targets and can be moved to any place.”

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2011 04:35

It could be interesting if we have something like multiple targets (like in ballistic mirvs) taken out by single flower.. essentially MICV (cruise).

nash · Post by **nash** » 21 Jul 2011 07:00

Adding my 2 naya-paisa to the mix: the "omni directional" warhead comment points distinctly to an AAD ancestry (recall the gimballed-directional-warhead in the latest BMD test). But this also leads to another (possible) interesting conclusion - would an omni-directional warhead be useful without a seeker? If you are going to direct the explosion in a particular arc, you should know where the target is. Ergo: the Prahaar has some sort of a seeker/imaging mechanism.

Borne out by a comment from Dr. Selvaraj reported in yesterday's Chindu: ‘Prahar' missile ready to be tested

It reminds me of "jericho" missile used in Iron Man movie , which tony spark demonstrated to army in Afghanistan...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Jul 2011 07:29

Recall that the surface-2-surface Brahmos missile had to be tested twice (at least) to remove bugs from her sensors.

I suspect this missile shares some sensors with that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 08:18

the good thing is - they can test 6 different ideas today if they want to - all from the same launcher.

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 21 Jul 2011 08:28

Tarmak has broken the news first that Prahar has been tested successfully

Breaking on Tarmak007: Prahaar packs a punch, hits the target in 195 seconds

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 21 Jul 2011 08:31

Yippee.....Great news.

150 km within 195 secs, thats mach 2.3. Way to go.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2011 08:38

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 21 Jul 2011 08:38

Details of Prahar from Tarmak:

1. Its a spin-off from Endo-atmospheric interceptor
2. Minimum range - 50 km
3. Max range - 150 km.
4. Ready to fire, canisterized, no periodic-checking required.

Boy one hell of a missile to have in the quiver. Fill it, shut it ,forget it and use it. Being solid fueled, I guess would also allow the TEL to move over rougher terrains at higher speeds, because we do not have any liquids sloshing around. Great for tactical needs.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2011 08:49

kamij shiber is 10 now.

Close to 50 scientists and engineers, including many youngsters, have worked for the Prahaar project.

cool!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jul 2011 08:53

I guess the next difficult test for prahaar would be to hit a target at 50KM. Hope the pinaka producers are pulled in for producing prahaar too

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jul 2011 08:55

I would love to see the pic of Prahaar....and shove it in the face of 'you-know-who'. The bugger has been shouting all along that Prahaar has been derived from Israeli EXTRA rocket. Ch*@#

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jul 2011 08:58

Rohit i think you answered this, at what level would prahaar be commanded, will it be a brigade level asset?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jul 2011 09:01

suryag wrote:Rohit i think you answered this, at what level would prahaar be commanded, will it be a brigade level asset?

Expect it to go to the Arty Divisions that we have...and Corps Artillery Brigades of Pivot Corps.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2011 09:02

A video would be even better, and up the jingo feel!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 09:05

suryag wrote:Rohit i think you answered this, at what level would prahaar be commanded, will it be a brigade level asset?

We won't know this for a couple of years... traditionally a missile system (Brahmos is an example) is introduced as a Army HQ asset, then it moves down the gravy train. "Brigade level asset", I wouldn't think so. Pinaka is kept at Division level. That is the lowest it will go. Maybe after couple of regiments have been inducted, it could make it way into an Independent Armoured Brigade?!? I make way for Rohitvats the resident IA ORBAT guru.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 09:06

SaiK wrote:A video would be even better, and up the jingo feel!

Even a Picture would have thrilled us...

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 21 Jul 2011 09:08

Bharat mata ki jai!

Kanishka · Post by **Kanishka** » 21 Jul 2011 09:16

Congratulations to DRDO and all those involved.
Someone asked what is a name? A lot, I would say, if the name is uber cool like "Prahar".
I am sure that the browning of the pant ceremony has already started at GHQ.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 21 Jul 2011 09:25

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 279166.ece

Yahoo! Congratulations to DRDO

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 09:33

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 279166.ece
TSS has written a detailed article on Prahaar.. highlights.
1) The test was carried out at 8.15 a.m. from Launch Complex-III at ITR
2) The single-stage, solid-fuelled missile - No Three Stage (that was probably DDM)
3) zeroed in onto the pre-designated target in the Bay of Bengal with a high degree of accuracy
4) All the radars, electro-optical systems and telemetry stations, besides a ship located in the vicinity recorded the entire event. (Videos will follow)
5) It will replace the unguided Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher (40 km range) and Smerch (90 km) rocket systems. (Surprise - replace the Pinaka!!!)
6) The 7.8 metre long missile weighing 1.2 tonnes
7) had high manoeuvrability and acceleration and could be quickly deployed in any terrain by a road mobile launcher.

Each launcher will carry six missiles - Six tubed I presume
9) Designed to carry omni-directional warheads
10) Most importantly - no cribs, no rants... Sabhashi all around by Chindu!!!

Guys!! it was tested when Madam Clinton is in TOWN!!!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Jul 2011 09:37

Good news,

Good job, now please get the land / sub ICBM right.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jul 2011 09:38

5) It will replace the unguided Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher (40 km range) and Smerch (90 km) rocket systems. (Surprise - replace the Pinaka!!!)

I dont think it will replace pinaka, pinaka will obviously be cheaper and its range is equal to the min range of the prahaar. Makes a little more sense to replace the smerch but that is unlikely either. Prahaar might be a surprise package hidden somewhere behind the frontlines to deliver the punch to higher value enemy c4i structures/big supply depots located 100-200 Kms behind the enemy frontline

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Jul 2011 09:40

Shrinivasan wrote: Guys!! it was tested when Madam Clinton is in TOWN!!!

This is a fixation of "Clinton in town" is silly in my opinion ... as if Clinton will not come to know about it while she is away or US is in 150 km range from India!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jul 2011 09:41

Whats the payload?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jul 2011 09:42

and moreover Shrinivasan ji we should be happy if we tested the ICBM when she was there.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 09:43

Another interesting Analysis of Prahaar missile by Vijainder K Thakur in hi Knoll!!!
http://knol.google.com/k/vijainder-k-th ... hy2mq/144#

1) It can be fired in a salvo of six. (Interesting - Why will someone fire all missiles in one go? even Pinaka rockets are fired in sequence- albeit is couple of seconds interval)
2) the missile "can image, take out multiple targets and can be moved to any place.” - A mature seeker I presume? all terrain capable. Multiple Target means it can be launched at different ranges, need not be continuously guided (seeker).
3) The Prahaar missile appears to be designed to neutralize the threat posed to India's Cold War Strategy from Pakistan's Nasr, a 60km range tactical nuclear missile. (Been in development well before NASR came into the picture).
4) India could ensure that no Nasr batteries came within striking distance of the armor formations during a cold start response.
Prahaar takes of NASR's Chaddi from Afaar.
Good analysis...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jul 2011 09:44

No replacement of Pinaka or Smerch...in fact, we might see some home-grown version in the Smerch class....this 150kms missile is in a class of its own. It will complement the SS-150 version of Prithvi in the short to medium term; expect the SS-150 version of Prithvi to be phased out in the long run. But everything said and done, 1 ton warhead is 1 ton warhead. Also, from IA's perspective, it gives them lot of flexibility in terms of taking out targets in depth - they will have to rely on that much lesser on IAF.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 09:44

suryag wrote:and moreover Shrinivasan ji we should be happy if we tested the ICBM when she was there.

will happen when Sec State Kerry comes visiting!!! just kidding... Agni-V will be tested in 2011 - Vande Mataram.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 09:45

indranilroy wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: Guys!! it was tested when Madam Clinton is in TOWN!!!
This is a fixation of "Clinton in town" is silly in my opinion ... as if Clinton will not come to know about it while she is away or US is in 150 km range from India!

The point I was trying to make was, People were shouting that it will not be tested this week as Clinton is in town. I felt it did not matter, hence my assertion. NO CONNECTION IS MY PT. I think we both Agree on this, correct?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 09:51

Someone just asked me what is an "omni-directional" warhead. Here we go.
An omni-directional warhead is one in which the explosive power radiates out in all direction (Omni - Multi or All) from the point of detonation. This is in contract to a Directional warhead or a Gimbaled Directional Warhead.
In a Directional warhead (used in ABM like PAD & AAD), the charge is directed at an angle say in a 45 degree arc. This is needed to efficiently destroy an incoming missile / RV / warhead.
A SRBM needs to spread its love and affection over a wider area to everyone around. Both have their advantage...
A Gimbaled Directional Warhead weighing only around 30 kilograms but will generate the impact of a 150 kilogram omni-directional warhead. At the same time An omni-directional warhead would spread its love to an area SIX to EIGHT times larger than a Gimbaled Directional Warhead.
Hope it helps!!!