Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Jul 2011 20:29

^^Wouldn't CBU-105 be more effective against armored columns and vehicle convoys on the plains?

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 21 Jul 2011 20:45

tsarkar wrote:
The missile will be cheaper and even more reliable than Brahmos, minus Russian dependencies. And the cannisters can be ship mounted - remember that L&T manufactures UVLM - the key word is universal. And enemy air defenses will have to deal with simultaneously ballistic (Prahaar) and manoeuvering (BrahMos) missiles.

.

tsarkar - you are a certified bl**dy sadist man !!!!

disha · Post by **disha** » 21 Jul 2011 20:46

Rakesh wrote:Tejas is the name for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and not the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

Sir I do know! Following Tejas since Deve G days ...., just my post was not clear.

But we digress from the main topic...back to the discussion at hand.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2011 20:48

disha wrote:
SaiK wrote:why should we restrict deployment to a movable launcher for the mountains and hills? secret hidden fixed launchers? perhaps number of them dispersed at strategic locations?
How will you keep it secret? The fixed launchers need maintenance and that means a logistical tail. No secrecy, then they become sitting ducks. A mobile launcher can go to a point A, launch, disperse, re-load, re-launch. Mix in some dummies to throw the dogs off the scent.

You did not read me correct. Mobile launch platform is the way to go, but on certain terrains, they can be a moving duck as well. It depends on the enemy capability to take on moving ducks.

Now, coming back to being stealthy on logistical ops, I don't want to discuss further and reveal ideas. /eod

disha · Post by **disha** » 21 Jul 2011 20:51

D Roy wrote:gentlemen gentlemen,

when they say like ATACM they may also mean trajectory shaping .... t2ku anyone?

Look at what we have now for the mountains ( mixed list in terms of weapons and services)

1. Prahaar 2. Brahmos Block III+ 3. Shourya 4. CBU-105 5. New EW system 6. Shakti IACCS 7. Variety of mountain top light weight radars 8. cargo round for 130 mm.

I think the Chicom threat has begun to be taken seriously now.

Not just the Chicom threat, it gives a theatre commander lot of options without climbing up the escalatory theatre. Most of the list above works for plains as well, not saying that Prahaar is paki specific., it is just another arrow in the quiver. And the way DRDO positioned is just that, beyond Pinaka and under Brahmos and is cheaper to produce with a tactical (200 Kg) warhead.

I am wondering why they stressed on the size of 200 Kg warhead. Why not say 300 Kg? This puppy can take a 300 Kg and hit somewhere around 100 Km easily. Is it that the strategic maal weighs just above 300 Kg and starts from there? Just speculating.

disha · Post by **disha** » 21 Jul 2011 20:54

^^^ How can mobile launch platforms be "moving ducks"?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 21 Jul 2011 21:01

Not just the Chicom threat

of course. But each of these weapons has features particularly useful in the mountains. Trajectory shaping i.e steep dive for some , airburst capability etc for others. and the new EW system I am talking about is optimized for the mountains.

Wouldn't CBU-105 be more effective against armored columns and vehicle convoys on the plains?

As effective. But in the mountains this kind of thing will tear to shreds any light wheeled armour attempt by Chicom. In open areas in ladakh it will make mincemeat of T-whatever.

So the IAF will always have a role in interdiction.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jul 2011 21:10

ohhhh shitski! That is one of the worst videos I have seen recently. None of the camera persons were expecting the missile to accelerate up that fast and they all failed to track the missile.

I have also never seen a missile accelerate this fast, this one was flying like an mbrl rocket or Shiv ji & DRDO folks tied up and used the same technology that was last seen in acceleration of LCA full circle videos

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 21 Jul 2011 21:24

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/07/p ... s-3rd.html

Prahaar is a gift from DRDO’s 3rd generation scientists: Saraswat

The DRDO chief, who always prefers to reach the launch site in Balasore on a speed-boat, leaving the comforts of a VIP vessel, said that the whole missile was developed by scientists, below 35 years of age. “Be it the controls, navigation, propulsion, guidance, system engineering or structures – it is DRDO’s 3rd generation scientists who developed Prahaar. I am delighted to say that it is their gift to India,” Saraswat said.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 21:56

suryag, look for videos of the gorgon/gazelle ABM n-tipped interceptors...thats the fastest I have seen yet.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jul 2011 22:09

^^^ just saw it on youtube, indeed they accelerate very fast

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 21 Jul 2011 22:26

Not an accurate one but a quick job to compare AAD and Prahaar. Anyone got a good Hires image for Shaurya. Google isnt helping:

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 21 Jul 2011 22:38

Just saw the Video of Prahaar launch....the second camera angle was too funny..he kept trailing the fumes but when couldn't locate the missile he just focused the whole sky

....superb acceleration booom and gone.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 21 Jul 2011 22:58

PratikDas wrote:
Singha wrote:>> I may be wrong but aren't missile launches tracked and filmed by automatic tracking cameras?

not here they are not! the wedding videographer from balasore town sends over few chaps and thats it.
That has to be one of the funniest things I've read in the non-BENIS threads.

really? what is so funny about it.. ? Pratik had a valid question which is still unanswered..

BrijeshB · Post by **BrijeshB** » 21 Jul 2011 23:22

MN Kumar wrote:Not an accurate one but a quick job to compare AAD and Prahaar. Anyone got a good Hires image for Shaurya. Google isnt helping:

Have a close look at those images horizontally, does it also seems like an A2G missile??
I think this is a new beginning, DRDO is hiding something under this sleek long design of Prahar. Does our brilliant scientists have undertaken for a universal missile project already with all possible variants in future..?
Correct me if I am wrong; can we use a pair of prahar's be fitted under the wings of our MKI's, or even LCA's with its ASM variants..?

Also 2 Prahar~2.5Tons under the wings, much lessr than a Brahmos need any significant modifications..??

John · Post by **John** » 22 Jul 2011 01:25

Rather difficult for it to be air launched since it would require the platform to Vertical and not to mention the large of thrust generated during launch.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jul 2011 01:28

didn't we have brahmos in vertical launched version, and now we are getting to ready to fire it off from MKI? of course a variant..

brvarsh · Post by **brvarsh** » 22 Jul 2011 01:29

This is a beautiful news from DRDO. Army needed this for a long time. Its a quick reaction missile and very effective to show Army's intent to succumb the enemy positions/installations from a 150+kms. We do not need a high precision system for that kind of a job. Kudos to DRDO once again.

John · Post by **John** » 22 Jul 2011 01:32

SaiK wrote:didn't we have brahmos in vertical launched version, and now we are getting to ready to fire it off from MKI? of course a variant..

It has side thrusters to orient itself so it can launched vertically or using inclined launchers. Brahmos is a Ramjet missile where as this is a Solid fueled missile.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jul 2011 01:39

Singha wrote:suryag, look for videos of the gorgon/gazelle ABM n-tipped interceptors...thats the fastest I have seen yet.

holy mackerel!!! the launch is a blast.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Jul 2011 02:09

prithvi wrote:
PratikDas wrote: N Jhawar>> I may be wrong but aren't missile launches tracked and filmed by automatic tracking cameras?
Singha>> not here they are not! the wedding videographer from balasore town sends over few chaps and thats it.

That has to be one of the funniest things I've read in the non-BENIS threads.
really? what is so funny about it.. ? Pratik had a valid question which is still unanswered..

Actually, N Jhawar, not I, had the question and Singha ji responded, and responded sufficiently in my opinion. If you can't appreciate the sense of humour then that's too bad. It is dead obvious from the videos that an automatic tracking system is missing. ISRO might have an automatic tracking system but that too is for satellite launchers, which don't cover as much of an elevation arc from the camera's point of view when they're as fast as this. Prahaar is obviously fast from the word go.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jul 2011 03:15

Well, the wedding videographer was kind enough to send multiple men AND stagger their distance from the launch site.

A report did state that it took 250 seconds to travel the (horizontal) 150 KMs.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 22 Jul 2011 03:53

PratikDas wrote:[
Actually, N Jhawar, not I, had the question and Singha ji responded, and responded sufficiently in my opinion. If you can't appreciate the sense of humour then that's too bad. It is dead obvious from the videos that an automatic tracking system is missing. ISRO might have an automatic tracking system but that too is for satellite launchers, which don't cover as much of an elevation arc from the camera's point of view when they're as fast as this. Prahaar is obviously fast from the word go.

We have seen videos from automatic tracking during AAD/prithvi interception sequences. So its there and they probably did not release it for whatever reason.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Jul 2011 04:55

NRao wrote:Well, the wedding videographer was kind enough to send multiple men AND stagger their distance from the launch site.

A report did state that it took 250 seconds to travel the (horizontal) 150 KMs.

And by how many degrees is the missile moving when it's that far? Not a lot, I can tell you that.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Jul 2011 05:18

Cybaru wrote: ...
We have seen videos from automatic tracking during AAD/prithvi interception sequences. So its there and they probably did not release it for whatever reason.

Cybaru ji, to make it perfectly clear, none of what I've said is at the expense of DRDO or the significance of this milestone. If we must make a big deal out of the video, something I'm certainly not keen on, then this is the link I could find:

As you can see, the video is continuous for the Prithvi (target) but not for the AAD (interceptor). I do remember seeing some infra-red footage of the interception elsewhere, but when the missile is that far, it's angular velocity isn't very high so tracking it easier.

Last post on the topic.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2011 07:09

Singha wrote:>> I may be wrong but aren't missile launches tracked and filmed by automatic tracking cameras?

not here they are not! the wedding videographer from balasore town sends over few chaps and thats it.

At least one of those camera persons is building up expertise in Doordarshan before leaving to set up his own wedding videos company. This guy did not catch the missile at all. Heck some DD guys miss a T-90 rolling past on the R-Day parade at 5 kmph and get Sonia Gandhi's mug instead.

If you visit the Flightlobal site you see some great videos of the Paris air show. But DD in Aero India? The less said the better. Sorry. OT

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2011 07:13

What is a quick reaction missile?

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 22 Jul 2011 07:15

Cross posting from the Indian Army thread
Army's 'Cold Start' doctrine gets teeth

:
The Prahaar gives a huge boost to India’s ‘Cold Start’ military doctrine. This method of war would be adopted as retaliation for any grave Pakistani provocation, such as another 26/11 Mumbai-style terror attack. Cold Start involves multiple, simultaneous invasions of Pak territory with quickly assembled Indian Army battle groups, well before Pakistani forces can reach the border and occupy defensive positions. The Prahaar would provide the army’s invading battle groups with lethal fire support, striking Pakistani headquarters far behind the frontlines, and destroying roads, railways, bridges and other communications infrastructure that are essential for rushing Pak forces to the border.
:
Further, the Prahaar’s range of warheads, which the DRDO has developed, gives the Indian Army multiple options. It could carry a cargo warhead containing bomblets that disperse over a wide area, killing any exposed troops. Alternatively, it could carry air-delivered mines, which spread across a piece of terrain, denying passage to enemy infantry or tanks. Or the Prahaar could carry a single, high-explosive warhead that can demolish even the best-protected target or critical infrastructure.

FREEING THE IAF
So far, many of these targets have fallen to the lot of the Indian Air Force. But in a Cold Start situation, the emphasis of the IAF, especially during the initial crucial days, would focus on attacking the Pak Air Force to prevent it from causing casualties in the Indian Army’s attacking battle groups or stopping their advance. By using the Prahaar against enemy entities beyond the range of artillery guns or rockets (30-40 km), or for interdicting enemy reserves and logistic columns far behind the lines, IAF fighters would be freed for “counter-air operations” against the PAF.

If, as is more than likely, the IAF buys the Prahaar in numbers, the missile could be effectively launched against forward Pakistani air bases, destroying fighters on the ground and damaging runways, air defence radars and air control networks. Currently, manned fighter aircraft perform these tasks, often at the cost of pilots’ lives and shot-down fighters.
:
:

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 Jul 2011 07:37

^^^Nice that teeth prototypes stand proven. But mass-manufacture & deployment remain big hurdles, esp in the Indian scenario. I do hope the capacity ram-up happens whilst the varied tech sanctions are still in force so as to render the threat of tech sanctions irrelevant in the future in the missiles space at least.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2011 07:52

shiv wrote:What is a quick reaction missile?

The one where detection/tracking time and firing of missile are minimal usually couple of seconds , the boot up time for such missile are under 4-6 sec compared to 18-20 sec for other types.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Jul 2011 08:25

Imagine a situation where prahaar batteries are networked with cartosat2 and if cartosat2 lowers its orbit and say provides six passes over pigistan, the prahaar would be latching on to these targets and finishing them off as they start moving towards the frontlines

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 09:11

[quote]Army's 'Cold Start' doctrine gets teeth[quote]
A decent write-up from Col Shook-law about Prahaar. the last line is lovely... "developed in TWO years".

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 22 Jul 2011 09:15

I think the high acceleration of the missile truly shows its AAD ancestry. An anti-ballistic missile would have very low time to engage the target, hence high acceleration and speed. Its great that Prahaar has inherited this trait from its ancestor. The acceleration is truly phenomenal.

Now we should have another spin-off from this Prahaar and using the same components/fuel etc, make a missile, which is around 25-30 cm in diameter and 4-5 m in length, carrying 70-100 kg warhead and 400-500 kg total weight. That would probably give us a range of 70-90 km when launched from air. Good stand-off missile for the airforce. Provide all the warheads that are already there for Prahaar to this missile too. Also make ARM version. The missile is light enough to be carried in decent numbers by most of our fighters. Also maybe compact enough to be carrier internally by PAKFA & AMCA.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 09:17

Kanson wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The capability conferred by this missile is beyond words, actually. We now need a longer range variant for PLA - something with 250-300-400kms range....will allow missiles to be launched from the plains of Assam Valley. Or targets in depth opposite our Ladakh. Though, such a missile will ofcourse be more heavy.
You must be having some idea, Rohit, so I put this question. How much target of import you can find near battlefield at the distance of 300 - 400km which needs such long range missile.

Rohit knows what he is talking about... S300 nodes, Radar sites, Ammo dumps, POL Dumps, Command and Control Centers. Resupply depots for forward troops.
UAV bases, Roads, Bridges, Artillery sites. forward bases/runways. the list goes on...
< 150KM range, the target might be less but at
300-400KM range, there will be plenty of targets... a Simple perusal of Google Earth will show you huge # of targets.
One more thing, Prahaar in the current AVATAR is for COLD start and we all know to whom/what Cold Start is meant for!!!

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 22 Jul 2011 09:26

rohitvats wrote:The capability conferred by this missile is beyond words, actually. We now need a longer range variant for PLA - something with 250-300-400kms range....will allow missiles to be launched from the plains of Assam Valley. Or targets in depth opposite our Ladakh. Though, such a missile will ofcourse be more heavy.

You must be having some idea, Rohit, so I put this question. How much target of import you can find near battlefield at the distance of 300 - 400km which needs such long range missile.[/quote]

Wouldn't it be more prudent to scale down the Shaurya missile to 400 km range and 250-300 kg warhead. The reason I am saying so is that Shaurya is not exactly a ballistic missile, but rather has a much depressed trajectory. Hence over a distance of 300-400 km, where maybe Prahaar would go upto 70-80 km height, Shaurya would still be below 50 km height, thus that much difficult to detect & counter.

Vinit · Post by **Vinit** » 22 Jul 2011 10:17

bmallick wrote: Hence over a distance of 300-400 km, where maybe Prahaar would go upto 70-80 km height, Shaurya would still be below 50 km height, thus that much difficult to detect & counter.

AFAIK, there is going to be hardly any difference in detection for missiles hitting 40km of altitude (Shaurya) versus 80km of altitude (Prahaar). Radars which can pick up inbounds at 80km of altitude can do that for 40km of altitude.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 10:35

Kanson wrote:@ Rohit, Thank You. @1.2 tonne, 6 missile should weigh less than 3 Brahmos. And hope it will be compact enough to travel windy roads. In official press release it is mentioned as all weather all terrain quick reaction missile.

Kanson, Apart from Weight (3 Brahmos missiles would be 9Tonnes + compared to Six Prahaars would be 7.2 Tonnes), length of missile also impacts traversing narrow, mountainous terrain roads. Prahaar with lower numbers on both count would have better road mobility.
I think both Brahmos and Prahaar would be deployed on the high mobility 8x8 TATRA trucks.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 10:37

Rakesh wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:Don't Drag Kareena into this... that name is reserved for Rafale... let this be Deepika ( Padukone)
Tch Tch....Kareena is the name for the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) for being size zero. Katrina is the name for Rafale for having just the right potency.
But please no names for Indian missiles. They are all already Indianized (Prahaar, Prithvi, Agni, Brahmos, etc).

Rakesh... just kidding...

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 22 Jul 2011 10:38

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:>> I may be wrong but aren't missile launches tracked and filmed by automatic tracking cameras?

not here they are not! the wedding videographer from balasore town sends over few chaps and thats it.
At least one of those camera persons is building up expertise in Doordarshan before leaving to set up his own wedding videos company. This guy did not catch the missile at all. Heck some DD guys miss a T-90 rolling past on the R-Day parade at 5 kmph and get Sonia Gandhi's mug instead.

If you visit the Flightlobal site you see some great videos of the Paris air show. But DD in Aero India? The less said the better. Sorry. OT

Did you mean the coffee mug ?

K

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 10:43

MN Kumar wrote:Not an accurate one but a quick job to compare AAD and Prahaar. Anyone got a good Hires image for Shaurya. Google isnt helping:

Good Effort, if you still don't have the Shaurya pict, drop me an email @ my gmail ID from my profile.