Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 01:42

indranilroy wrote:But this is the best design for a docile and highly stable ... That is why we see a lot of UAVs of this shape. I mean look at the airframe ... what is there to build in it ?!!! Choose the payload of the instruments that need to be carried, choose a suitable engine and prop ... counter balance the engine with the payload ... select a low-drag aerofoil. Calculate length of wing. Match the CG with CP and there you go.

Indranil, You make UAVs sound so simple!!! I don't think so.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2011 07:19

If you want the electro optical sensors of a UAV to get an unrestricted forward view you cannot have a spinning propeller in front. So it must be a pusher. For a single engine pusher, a twin tailboom is the most sensible design that places the engine thrust in line with the fuselage. Otherwise the engine will need to be mounted above the fuselage like that Dornier Seaplane.

Jet engines make your UAV very fast and high flying - less useful for slow loitering. Twin engines (Like her ugliness Rustam 2) do not require a twin tailboom - but that is more complexity and more weight.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Jul 2011 10:16

Shrinivasan wrote:
indranilroy wrote:But this is the best design for a docile and highly stable ... That is why we see a lot of UAVs of this shape. I mean look at the airframe ... what is there to build in it ?!!! Choose the payload of the instruments that need to be carried, choose a suitable engine and prop ... counter balance the engine with the payload ... select a low-drag aerofoil. Calculate length of wing. Match the CG with CP and there you go.
Indranil, You make UAVs sound so simple!!! I don't think so.

Please don't quote half of the message to make it sound out of context. What I wrote was this, and I stand by it.

What is inside it and what is on the ground are what matters.

As far as as the airframe for these UAVs go, it is not the most challenging thing. You are in the US. Please visit any university of repute ... there will be atleast two undergrad teams making UAVs ... Why go even there, back home at IITs people are making UAVs ... the difference between student projects at military UAVs is the range, durability, and all weather capability.

Coming back to just the airframe ... give a UG aero kid an assignment to design a stable, lazy plane and efficient plane ... what would he do? ... he will make a long aspect-ratio high mounted wing with a sleek airfoil ... do you see why gliders have the same shape as UAVs ... Shivji explained why we should have a pusher prop design ... once you know that, the empennage is also a given ... For pneumatically launched UAVs, the housing has be much more sturdy, that is all!!

Having said that I love the fact that we chose the Long-EZ for our Rustom-I ... I can discuss it too ... but I will save it for another day as it is much more complex ... the primary reason why it was chosen is again because it is one of the sleekest through the air.

The main challenges for building a military UAV is not with the airframe. The main challenges are (from the top of my head):
1. the payloads: they are extremely complex opto-electronic gadgets, how do you have the best possible surveillance in all weather ... day and night!
2. ground control (possibly integrated ground controls),
3. making the plane autonomous
3.1. provide the plane intelligence about it's orientation ... this is generally done with gyros and horizon detection (used to a big deal 10 years back, grad-college level stuff now),
3.2. way-point communication (was a big deal 10 years back, again grad-level stuff now)
3.3. Auto take-off and landing with provision for pilot authority
4. making a reliable and efficient engine which can go on and on and on
5. increasing range: this is a major major challenge ... not because the plane can't fly further ... it is because it becomes increasingly difficult to have uninterrupted communication with the plane, the lag in communication increases, there is a possibility that your communication is picked up/jammed

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 23 Jul 2011 00:54

PNS Alamgir formally inducted into navy

our correspondent
Thursday, July 21, 2011
Karachi

The small tanker-cum-utility-ships (STUS) — Madadgar and Rasadgar — have been commissioned and the PNS Alamgir, a frigate given by the USA, has been formally inducted in the Pakistan Navy Fleet during a ceremony held at the Pakistan Navy Dockyard.

Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir was the chief guest at the occasion.

The ceremony was attended by officials from Ministry of Defence, flag officers from Pakistan Navy, senior management of the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW) as well as other guests.

According to a statement of the Pakistan Navy, Rasadgar and Masadgar, the first ships of their class, were indigenously constructed in Pakistan by the Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works.

These state of the art ships are designed and equipped for multi facet roles with robust and reliable modern machinery as well as equipment.

PNS Alamagir (formerly USS McInereney) is an Oliver Hazard Perry (OHP) Class guided-missile Frigate. The ship was commissioned to Pakistan Navy on 31 August, 2010 after which she underwent major refurbishment and essential repairs in the US.

The OHP Frigates are being used by a number of navies. PNS Alamgir will augment Maritime Security Operations capacity in the Arabian Sea in addition to supporting Pakistan Navy Surface Fleet.

On the occasion, Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir, while addressing the audience, congratulated all those who were involved in the STUS Project and on the induction of Alamgir.

He expressed satisfaction on the induction of these crafts in the Pakistan Navy Fleet. Chief of the naval staff said that the commissioning of these tankers cum utility vessels is a manifestation of PN’s commitment and resolve towards self reliance and indigenisation.

Commander Pakistan Fleet Vice Admiral Abbas Raza reiterated that the PN Fleet is committed to defend Pakistan’s sea frontiers and will continue its contribution towards peace and stability in the region.

He said the STUS Project, undertaken by KS&EW, will provide PN with greater flexibility and endurance for a wide range of support operations to PN fleet and coastal stations.

The indigenous projects that are well underway range from platform design and construction to development of sensors, command and control systems, simulators and computer based training modules, said the PN statement.

and News from earlier this year:
Frigate, Pier Damaged At Drydock

POSTED: Friday, January 21, 2011
UPDATED: 2:46 pm EST January 21, 2011

The PNS Alamgir and the drydock it was in were damaged while testing the ship's engines Friday morning.
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A Navy guided missile frigate that was sold to the Pakistani navy earlier this year was damaged on Friday morning, along with the pier of a Northside shipyard where the ship is undergoing repairs.

The USS McInerny was transferred in August and renamed the PNS Alamgir. It was at BAE Drydock -- formerly Atlantic Drydock -- in the 8500 block of Heckscher Drive for renovations before it was to steam for Pakistan next week.

The U.S. Coast Guard said the ship's engines were being tested when it lurched forward, slamming into the pier causing heavy damage to the pier and the bow of the ship.

There was no oil or fuel spill, but the hull was crumpled.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jul 2011 01:25

^^^ unkil has number of ways to tighten screws

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2011 06:15

suryag wrote:^^^ unkil has number of ways to tighten screws

But can only tighten 20% of them. 80% are out of unkil's control

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 11:20

shiv wrote:
suryag wrote:^^^ unkil has number of ways to tighten screws
But can only tighten 20% of them. 80% are out of unkil's control

Unkil can tighten how much ever it wants to... Unkil has tightened the screws 20% till now...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2011 12:32

Shrinivasan wrote:Unkil can tighten how much ever it wants to... Unkil has tightened the screws 20% till now...

This is how we SDREs build up urban myths of Amriki power and invincibility and in turn compare and say how SDRE we are.

Both IMO are misplaced.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 13:28

shiv wrote:This is how we SDREs build up urban myths of Amriki power and invincibility and in turn compare and say how SDRE we are. Both IMO are misplaced.

My comment was not a reflection on Desh, not even the power of Amreeka. just the intent of Sherkhan and the sheer apathy of "bhaksheesh/Bekari Babu"

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jul 2011 15:40

the good Dr says 20% but i think the pigs being Dr.Evil's second keep's son knew all these and always prepared for lack of khanish spares/equipment, they have possibly implemented to the last word the cardinal rule of not having a single supplier. They have played their cards very well bringing in the chinese and the sauds but what they dont know is, we can track their machinations, after all we know what they are made of, just that our ruling class lacks will/enlightenment... it will come. I mean when a respected Dr.Shiv and a non-descript surya with brf's help understands what these guys are upto wont south/north block know them. They are like s.pal their misdeeds are never going unaccounted and redemption is hopefully around the corner

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2011 15:58

Facility Analysis - Karachi Port Facility

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 23 Jul 2011 17:33

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... N48-tYr-A0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... fo4#at=504

two video abt pak infantry weapons

Anuj A · Post by **Anuj A** » 23 Jul 2011 18:14

jimmy_moh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... N48-tYr-A0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... fo4#at=504

two video abt pak infantry weapons

I wish Indian media would do somthing similar on Indian armed forces.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 23 Jul 2011 19:47

^Shivulla won't be happy

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 23 Jul 2011 20:45

jimmy_moh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... N48-tYr-A0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... fo4#at=504

two video abt pak infantry weapons

And this is what "putting lipstick on pigs" is all about. The lipstick here being the firangi background music/videos and the pigs here being.......well you know it already....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 Jul 2011 23:18

jimmy_moh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... N48-tYr-A0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... fo4#at=504

two video abt pak infantry weapons

Really...I mean really? Hollywood scenes and hip hop? Overcompensating for something are we?

PS: I have always rued the PR unfriendliness of IA. I feel that a little TFTA show off is useful to inspire the general mass. But if PR friendliness means this, then I am all to happy with the current state.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 09:14

jimmy_moh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... N48-tYr-A0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... fo4#at=504
two video abt pak infantry weapons

This looks like a straight copy of what NatGeo made about the IA with Mission Army. Including the opening Montage!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 09:19

NDTV's Jai Hind with Rocky and Mayur is another good Series on the Armed forces. They are back/going to be back with another series this year. One need more make-up when there are more blemishes to hide, a wealthier suitor to please, are already a discarded glove...
IA's PR initiatives might be few and far between but then that is the same thing with all things India. People only remember the snafus and corruption allegations in 2010 Commonwealth Games, not the spectacular Games which was conducted smoothly or the Medals Indian Athletes won. Jai Hind.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 09:22

Rohitvats and Gagan,
There is a wealth of ORBAT info about the Paki Army and other arms... will post details in the Paki ORBAT thread.

manum · Post by **manum** » 24 Jul 2011 10:08

Shrinivasan wrote: People only remember the snafus and corruption allegations in 2010 Commonwealth Games, not the spectacular Games which was conducted smoothly or the Medals Indian Athletes won. Jai Hind.

who is people by the way?
and whoever they are, they do remember everything with corruption...don't talk like living in shell, may be you are out of India currently, but try taking a legitimate bank loan for your business or even get a map passed...or doing whatever you please, even dealing with your own god damn hired CA who deals with taxes and so govt. officials...

try putting yourself outside the package company gives you, deducting the taxes...and not being corrupt...and don't talk about people which is you...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 11:41

manum wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: People only remember the snafus and corruption allegations in 2010 Commonwealth Games, not the spectacular Games which was conducted smoothly or the Medals Indian Athletes won. Jai Hind.
who is people by the way?
and whoever they are, they do remember everything with corruption...don't talk like living in shell, may be you are out of India currently, but try taking a legitimate bank loan for your business or even get a map passed...or doing whatever you please, even dealing with your own god damn hired CA who deals with taxes and so govt. officials...

try putting yourself outside the package company gives you, deducting the taxes...and not being corrupt...and don't talk about people which is you...

Manum, Care to explain... Are you praising India or demeaning it, or are you demenaing me for being outside India. I don't understand. I also don't seem to care your line of thinking, so am ignoring it. My line is simple "India is a great country, striving to become better inspite of all the hurdles on its path... imposed and self made"

manum · Post by **manum** » 24 Jul 2011 12:07

Shrinivasan wrote: Care to explain... Are you praising India or demeaning it, or are you demenaing me for being outside India. I don't understand. I also don't seem to care your line of thinking, so am ignoring it. My line is simple "India is a great country, striving to become better inspite of all the hurdles on its path... imposed and self made"

yup its better to ignore it for all the reasons...but only request is please use "people" word more responsibly, that is it...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Jul 2011 12:15

Shrinivasan wrote:NDTV's Jai Hind with Rocky and Mayur is another good Series on the Armed forces. They are back/going to be back with another series this year. One need more make-up when there are more blemishes to hide, a wealthier suitor to please, are already a discarded glove...
IA's PR initiatives might be few and far between but then that is the same thing with all things India. People only remember the snafus and corruption allegations in 2010 Commonwealth Games, not the spectacular Games which was conducted smoothly or the Medals Indian Athletes won. Jai Hind.

I agree.

If sachin can be considered for Bharat Rathna, then so should kalmadi. After all, the creep did conduct the games smoothly. (albiet in a somewhat oily and profitable fashion!)

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Jul 2011 17:02

^^
Touche

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 24 Jul 2011 22:32

http://app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option= ... 7&Itemid=2

Downhill sking in progress:

Pakistan to defy regional hegemony of India: Hina

LAHORE, July 24 (APP): Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar has said that Pakistan is a sovereign state and it would not accept hegemony of any country in the region. “Pakistan’s role in the region is by no means inferior to India”, she said while talking to the media men at the Lahore Airport on her return from the ministerial meeting of the ASEAN regional forum, here Sunday.

Hina Rabbani Khar said the outstanding issues with India could not be settled overnight, adding that Kashmir issue is on the preferential agenda of Pakistan as Pakistan is desirous of durable peace in the region.
The Minister said that the international community must extend cooperation to Pakistan in recognition of country’s role as a frontline ally in combating terror.
To a query, she said that she had a fruitful meeting with the Chinese foreign minister at the ASEAN forum and we discussed Pak-China bilateral relations, adding that China is time-tested friend of Pakistan and Pakistan is proud of this friendship.
The Foreign Minister said that the strategic relations with China were moving from strength to strength with every passing day.
About her meeting with the US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton she said that Pak-US relations came under discussion at the meeting, stressing that strong working relationship with the US is in the national interest of Pakistan.
The minister said that the US secretary of state has expressed her will to bring relations back on track with Pakistan as well as remove any reservations between the countries.
She has said that Pak-US do have difference of opinion on certain operational matters, expressing the hope that the differences can be resolved amicably.
Ms Khar said the US Secretary of State has agreed on the meeting of the Pak-US Foreign ministers soon.
“Whatever be the role of a country in the region, Pakistan’s importance can not diminished at and the US acknowledges the fact”, she responded.
Regarding Ghulam Nabi Fai, she said that the Kashmiri leader has rendered meritorious services for the Kashmir cause in line with the US law and the constitution, adding that Pakistan admires Dr Fai’s services for the Kashmiris.

Ohh isn't she a phataki. No wonder the TFTAs lub her!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jul 2011 22:42

as Pakistan is desirous of durable peace in the region.

Is Pakistan durable?

manum · Post by **manum** » 24 Jul 2011 22:46

^^ she is nightwatchman of pakistani cricket team which they are hoping will make a century...that we'll see...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 25 Jul 2011 01:53

rajanb wrote:Downhill sking in progress:
Pakistan to defy regional hegemony of India: Hina
To a query, she said that she had a fruitful meeting with the Chinese foreign minister at the ASEAN forum and we discussed Pak-China bilateral relations, adding that China is time-tested friend of Pakistan and Pakistan is proud of this friendship.
The Foreign Minister said that the strategic relations with China were moving from strength to strength with every passing day.
Ohh isn't she a phataki. No wonder the TFTAs lub her!

Now GUBO time with China or is it with both PRC and US

is this an example of "a Two timing ba$tard"!?!
Already Pakees are bitching about her credentials (isn't being a PYT & from the 22 families enough!! she also has a degree from Amreeka to boot) Hain Ji.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2011 03:31

This thread, typical of all Paki related threads, is getting to be a catch all?

However, the Pak-US relation must be getting pretty bad. Originally from the NY Times:

Pakistan Spies on Its Diaspora, Spreading Fear

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 25 Jul 2011 03:47

NRao wrote:riginally from the NY Times:
Pakistan Spies on Its Diaspora, Spreading Fear

Rao, did you notice that they quitely shipped this guy out, it means US has been tightening the screws on Pakees for some time now, now only the blood has been spilt in public. Again goes back to my theory of Uncle has Huge leverage (100%) but choses to use 20% of it, also uncle can choose the place and time of its choosing to tighten the screws. Only think Pakees can do is GUBO and/or do a charm offensive (Hina comes in here).

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Jul 2011 08:37

NRao wrote:
as Pakistan is desirous of durable peace in the region.
Is Pakistan durable?

Hopefully not. But Pakistani pieces would be durable.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 25 Jul 2011 09:01

rajanb wrote:
NRao wrote:as Pakistan is desirous of durable peace in the region.
Is Pakistan durable?
Hopefully not. But Pakistani pieces would be durable.

"Pakistani Pieces" or "Pieces of Pakistan" would be durable only is the global players want it to be durable. Who would be new players who will exert influence on the pieces which would remain of Pukistan? what are their intentions? how deep is their pocket? all these influences durability.
Let us take Post World War II Germany as an analogy. It was initially carved into FOUR pieces, One each for US, UK, France and USSR (the largest piece), these were roughly equal to the are occupied by the Armies of these countries at the time of cessation of hostilities. Initial plan was to keep these pieces separately but the mess which was UKisthan and France implied that their zone would not be a viable country and could get gobbled up the USSR. US created the Federal Republic of Germany (FGR/FRG) and USS created the German Democratic Republic (GDR) - East Germany. See more info @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Jul 2011 09:09

^^ Shrini,

Very good analogy. Even in pieces, we would still have the troublesome pieces of Sind & Punjab at our border.

Diplomatically, if we increase our relationship with the Afghans, and we had a good relationship, before it fell apart in the 80's we could increase our diplomatic footprint to Baluchistan.

Life would be better? Tough to say.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 25 Jul 2011 09:28

rajanb wrote:Very good analogy. Even in pieces, we would still have the troublesome pieces of Sind & Punjab at our border.

Let us analyse Punjab first. The new state of Punjab would be dependent on Yindia for Water, electricity, trade etc. It is now cut-off from the sea coast so, its trade either needs to go through India or Sindhudesh. Also it will be militarily most powerful state, so it needs to be made Nanga pretty quickly. Expect the RAPE of Punjab to grab and loot whatever they can and quickly emmigrate to Sindh, MidEast, Ukisthan, Urope and Amreeka. Event to SE Asian countries and Australia. So the remaining ~~PakJabis~~ Punjabis owe their daily bread to Yevil Yindoos.
Actually this is an ideal scenario, I expect an Yogoslavia type situation (Civil War) for couple of years before a breakup happens and a Germany/Balkan type structure created. AQ and Telebunnies would not go off quietly, they would finish of the Pakjabis before any settlement is attempted. Crore Commanders might take their armies and carve out provinces (or even countries) for themselves. Former Kingdoms like Bhawalpur would just want to separate from PakJab and become independent.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 25 Jul 2011 09:31

rajanb wrote:Very good analogy. Even in pieces, we would still have the troublesome pieces of Sind & Punjab at our border.

Sindh analysis follows tomorrow.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jul 2011 11:17

Anuj A wrote:
jimmy_moh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... N48-tYr-A0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... fo4#at=504

two video abt pak infantry weapons
I wish Indian media would do somthing similar on Indian armed forces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UYGJ-RH ... re=related
Check the map of Pakistan and India on kashmir.
It keeps changing

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Jul 2011 06:35

Pakistan plans to add 24 missiles this year to target all parts of India

Pakistan plans to add 24 nuclear-capable, short-range missiles capable of hitting all major Indian cities to its arsenal this year, reflecting a urge in the security establishment to seek "strategic parity in the region", according to a media report today.This will be the highest number of missiles Pakistan has ever produced in a year if the government achieves the target, The Express Tribune newspaper quoted its sources as saying.The air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles will be able to hit targets at a distance between 700 km and 1,000 km, thus putting nearly all major Indian cities within their range, the report claimed.The plan is in line with Pakistan's official policy of having what is rhetorically called "maintaining a minimum deterrence", especially against India, the daily quoted sources as saying.The Strategic Plans Division (SPD) � the body that oversees Pakistan's nuclear arsenal � is supervising the production of the new missiles.The SPD works under the National Command Authority, which is nominally headed by the Prime Minister and has the three service chiefs as its members.At a recent meeting of the NCA, the SPD briefed authorities about its plan envisaging the production of the highest number of missiles in a year.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 26 Jul 2011 06:54

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan plans to add 24 missiles this year to target all parts of India
Pakistan plans to add 24 nuclear-capable, short-range missiles capable of hitting all major Indian cities to its arsenal this year, reflecting a urge in the security establishment to seek "strategic parity in the region", according to a media report today.This will be the highest number of missiles Pakistan has ever produced in a year if the government achieves the target, The Express Tribune newspaper quoted its sources as saying.The air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles will be able to hit targets at a distance between 700 km and 1,000 km, thus putting nearly all major Indian cities within their range, the report claimed.The plan is in line with Pakistan's official policy of having what is rhetorically called "maintaining a minimum deterrence", especially against India, the daily quoted sources as saying.The Strategic Plans Division (SPD) � the body that oversees Pakistan's nuclear arsenal � is supervising the production of the new missiles.The SPD works under the National Command Authority, which is nominally headed by the Prime Minister and has the three service chiefs as its members.At a recent meeting of the NCA, the SPD briefed authorities about its plan envisaging the production of the highest number of missiles in a year.

Nice Lahori logic here. A 700km/1000km Surface-to-air missile? For destroying a city ?? The Air-to-air missile is even more funny. Do they even have radars to catch some aircraft 1000km away?

Even if they somehow make these imaginary Surface-to-air/Air-to-air missiles, they still wont cover "all major cities in India". Here is a rough map I could make with 1000 km radius (assuming launched from edge of the border - another lol).

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 26 Jul 2011 07:16

^^but major Air bases are covered

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2011 08:03

they dont care for airbases. all paki n-weapons are countervalue intended - killing the maximum indians.