please don't get your dhoti in a twist sir!devesh wrote:Harbans,
what exactly is your point??? just make it. don't beat around the bush. all these examples of this and that person making some comment is just distraction. what exactly are you trying to say? that Hindus should shut up b/c otherwise it might foster a guy like Breivik?
The above is not blaming the Norway massacre on the RSS. It is saying that without an unequivocal rejection and condemnation of violence as a solution to the problems correctly (or incorrectly) identified by the RSS, etc., India is going to face huge problems.In 2008, Hindutva leader B.L. Sharma ‘Prem' held a secret meeting with key members of a terrorist group responsible for a nationwide bombing campaign targeting Muslims. “It has been a year since I sent some three lakh letters, distributed 20,000 maps of Akhand Bharat but these Brahmins and Banias have not done anything and neither will they [do anything],” he is recorded to have said in documents obtained by prosecutors. “It is not that physical power is the only way to make a difference,” he concluded, “but to awaken people mentally, I believe that you have to set fire to society.”
Last week, Anders Behring Breivik, armed with assault weapons and an improvised explosive device fabricated from the chemicals he used to fertilize the farm that had made him a millionaire in his mid-20s, set out to put Norway on fire.
Even though a spatial universe separated the blonde, blue-eyed Mr. Breivik from the saffron-clad neo-Sikh Mr. Sharma, their ideas rested on much the same intellectual firmament.
In much media reportage, Mr. Breivik has been characterised as a deranged loner: a Muslim-hating Christian fanatic whose ideas and actions placed him outside of society. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mr. Breivik's mode of praxis was, in fact, entirely consistent with the periodic acts of mass violence European fascists have carried out since World War II. More important, Mr. Breivik's ideas, like those of Mr. Sharma, were firmly rooted in mainstream right-wing discourse.
For India, there are several important lessons. Like's Europe's mainstream right-wing parties, the BJP has condemned the terrorism of the right — but not the thought system which drives it. Its refusal to engage in serious introspection, or even to unequivocally condemn Hindutva violence, has been nothing short of disgraceful. Liberal parties, including the Congress, have been equally evasive in their critique of both Hindutva and Islamist terrorism.
Besieged as India is by multiple fundamentalisms, in the throes of a social crisis that runs far deeper than in Europe, with institutions far weaker, it must reflect carefully on Mr. Brevik's story — or run real risks to its survival.
), without exceptions and without apologies, it is bound to fail.Bji, not able to understand the following:brihaspati wrote:
So it is the height of delusion to try and separate "politics" from "religion". The so-called "secularism" of the Western European trend is actually based on a reconstruction of an imagined "golden" period in the "classical pre-Christian" and "early Christianity" Europe. In fact a lot of it found justification, strength and logic from an imagined "reformist", "rebellious", social-uprising-inducing supposed revolutionary aspect of Christianity as mediated by the classical Roman and Greek republicanism....
The modern Leftist-West-European-Protestant-mix value based evaluatory criteria that passes for "secularism" is directly traceable to the early modern reinvention of a revolutionary modern version of Christianity. Look at the value systems, the "republicanism" of the Roman roots, the imagined peculiar elite-egalitarianism, the jealous formation and guarding of closed ideological peer groups - which maintain their paradigms, and ultimately through it all the timeless search for a monopoly over power.
Eggjaktlee!RamaY wrote:This incident is a Christian purge of its Marxist liberals. Hindustan has no game in this nonsense.
But the CSM extensively quotes Praveen Swami. He must be having a ball at the references to him, and will further associate, howeverr speciously, "Hindu right" into this mess and continue to get notoriety in the west. I won't be surpirsed of P'Misra & A'Roy push this line as well in some western publications. Lost in all this will be real issue, the terorrism India has suffered and continues to suffer inflicted by Islamists whose nerve center is in TSP.RamaY wrote:If one goes to the tail end of that document he wrote, one can clearly see the Christian origins of his lunacy.
He threw the words Hindu, Buddhists as they suffered much at the hands of fanatic Islam. What he misses to mention is the pain and suffering caused by his own creed, EJism.
Only politically motivated link this nonsense with Hindu-right.
Added: This is a crusade between Christianity and Islam. This incident is a Christian purge of its Marxist liberals. Hindustan has no game in this nonsense.
It's a popular attitude to view this guy as nothing else as a lonely nutcase. But be real. My estimate of the number of people in the world below 35 years of age who could write a similarly extensive (1500 pages), relatively coherent, and formally nearly flawless (compare it with your generic crackpot) book about politics is less than 0.1%. This guy is clearly no random chap who only differs by psychological instabilities or problems from others. He's more intelligent than a vast majority of humans. In this sense, much like his strongly held right-wing and nationalist opinions, intelligence itself is partly a culprit in this mass murder - which is perhaps another inconvenient truth for many intelligent people on all sides of the political and apolitical spectrum.
Obviously, I don't share his opinions about lots of things. I am simply not scared by Islam in "any concentration", as you may find obvious given the large number of people from all conceivable ethnic groups that I've had friendly relations with in my life. If there's a worry, it's a worry that Islam may overtake Europe and become the official, majority-sponsored regime. But if you could guarantee that this won't happen, I just see nothing wrong about a few Muslims anywhere in Europe. Efforts to introduce any purity - ethnic or cultural - just look like ordinary fascism to me and I've been always strongly opposed to it.
Your 1500-page manifesto may surely find lots of readers who know where you're coming from - but how it's linked to the killing of 76 particular young people on a summer camp will inevitably remain a mystery for your foes as well as your allies. Others won't understand what was so wrong with those young people. Others will realize that these young people have never hurt us - not even made us upset - in any way whatsoever. No one really knows them. They've been innocent and they don't even seem to be important culprits in whatever undesirable trends that may be taking place in contemporary Europe and the world.
There is a lot of mist and dust that has accumulated about early Christianity. I am trying my best to point out the problems with the representations that have been handed down to us. But this goes too deep into the history and more importantly the "historiography" of Christianity. Will go far OT, so will try to keep it within ambit.Bharath.Subramanyam wrote:Bji, not able to understand the following:brihaspati wrote:
So it is the height of delusion to try and separate "politics" from "religion". The so-called "secularism" of the Western European trend is actually based on a reconstruction of an imagined "golden" period in the "classical pre-Christian" and "early Christianity" Europe. In fact a lot of it found justification, strength and logic from an imagined "reformist", "rebellious", social-uprising-inducing supposed revolutionary aspect of Christianity as mediated by the classical Roman and Greek republicanism....
The modern Leftist-West-European-Protestant-mix value based evaluatory criteria that passes for "secularism" is directly traceable to the early modern reinvention of a revolutionary modern version of Christianity. Look at the value systems, the "republicanism" of the Roman roots, the imagined peculiar elite-egalitarianism, the jealous formation and guarding of closed ideological peer groups - which maintain their paradigms, and ultimately through it all the timeless search for a monopoly over power.
i. 'revolutionary aspect through Roman & Greek republicanism'
ii. 'elite-egalitarianism'
iii. 'closed ideological peer groups'
Can you please explain?
Indian political spectrum on the left has evolved enough that suiciding or "heart attack" is the preferred means of silencing opponents. So there might be a rash of suicides, but no assasinations, for the same reasons that you mention i.e. nobody needs martyrs. For that matter the right wing has also tasted success by tackling MF Hussain via legal means.harbans wrote:I am only pointing to a clear danger, that hatred against the Psec and liberal is peaking slowly. It's visible across wide sections in the media through posts in TOI, Rediff and elsewhere in US and EU. Do you see what many are clearly seeing, a few targetted assassinations against known psecs and libs and you have created the quadri effect like in Pakistan, or Islam has created against people who draw cartoons and criticize the prophet. This incident is not a Timothy Veigh or Unabomber type of thing.
Christianity has for centuries waged a lively polemic against Islam.
Recently, this criticism has subsided. Worse, polemical works by clerics have been
withdrawn or kept unpublished (such as, early this century, Father Henri Lammens'
paper arguing that Mohammed's revelations were a psychopathological
phenomenon). One reason is that the Church is aware of the similarity between Jesus'
and Mohammed's missions, so that a criticism of the foundations of Islam may
backfire on Christianity. The second reason is the fear that Christians in the Muslim
world would have to pay for even ideological attack on Islam (that is why Church
polemists save their sharpest words for harmless religions like Hinduism). This fear
also motivates other Church policies, such as the non-recognition of the state of
Israel.
An oft-invoked counterweight for the charge-sheet against Islam, is the fanaticism record of Christianity. It is indeed well-known that Christianity has been guilty of
numerous temple destructions and persecutions. But the reason for this fanaticism is
found in the common theological foundation of both religions: exclusivist prophetic
monotheism. The case against Christianity is at once a case against Islam.
Many people brought up as Christians, or as nominal Hindus, never outgrow their pubescent revolt against their parents' religion, and therefore automatically sympathise with every rival or opponent of the religion they have come to despise. Because Islam poses the most formidable threat, they like it a lot.
page 49/1518Negationists sometimes accept the facts, but disclaim their
hero's responsibility for them. Thus, Mohammed Habib tried to exonerate Islam by
ascribing to the Islamic invaders alternative motives: Turkish barbarity, greed, the
need to put down conspiracies brewing in temples. In reality, those rulers who had
secular reasons to avoid an all-out confrontation with the unbelievers were often
reprimanded by their clerical courtiers for neglecting their Islamic duty.
In this century, Islam has come to be advertised as a naturally leftist "religion of equality". This line has been developed by Muslim apologists such as
Mohammed Habib, and they have even taken it as a rationalisation of the irrational
claim that Mohammed was the "last Prophet": after all, as the "prophet of equality",
he had brought the ultimate message upon which no improvement is possible.
Among Muslim spokesmen, is certainly not the fundamentalists who are the most
active proponents of negationism. It is liberals like Asghar Ali Engineer who deny
that Islam ordains war on the infidels. It is those who are acclaimed by Europeans
as being good "secular" Muslims.
We should not make the Islamic mistake of judging people simply by their belonging or not belonging to the Muslim community, rather than by their human qualities. But the fact remains that the presence of a doctrine of intolerance as the official and identity-defining ideology of a community, exerts a constant pressure tending
towards separatism and confrontation. The alleviating presence of the humanist
factor even within the Muslim community should not be used to deny the ominous
presence of Islamic factors.
In Islam, there is no "natural" sense of morality or justice that transcends the specific examples and injunctions outlined in the Quran and the Sunnah. Because Muhammad is considered Allah's final prophet and the Quran the eternal, unalterable words of Allah himself, there is also no evolving morality that permits the modification or integration of Islamic morality with that from other sources. The entire Islamic moral universe devolves solely from the life and teachings of Muhammad.
Brihaspatiji, this is precisely the problem. Conflict was always there in the heathen society, there is nothing significant in this by itself. Factions will always form and there will be supporters in each faction, and there will be some voicing a grievance. The rebellion of grievance is in no way transformed into a “revolutionary movement” in heathen society. In fact, the “revolutionary movement” only manifests at the level of conceptualization in socio-political theory. This happened for the first time in Monotheism. For example, we know that (Titus of) Josephus is a mirror image of the (Jesus of) NT and that the NT is a parody of Josephus and not the other way around (but with tell-tale reverse situations occurring in isolation). If Josephus is so perfectly crafted, then what of its “neutral observations” regarding the natives refusing to “bow before the emperor/idol’’ in ‘theological principle’ rather than just rebellion? When Shivaji rebelled against the Emperor, did he do so because he was opposed to idol/emperor worship? Of course not (although the converted omniscients will have an extremely hard time visualizing such). The “observations” regarding "refusal to emperor/idol worship" in Josephus are simply the ground against which the anti-semitic (meaning anti-ME) invective of the NT can manifest. Josephus is the "social observation" and is posited as the 'normality'. And by framing the case of the native rebellion as a case of theological disagreement, an intermediary (of theological principle) can be posited as the “fulcrum” of the conflict, which allows for further ambiguation (eg, the rebels had founded a world theory of anti-slavery, freedom, liberty, etc). At the level of Josephus, this ambiguation is "social theory"; at the level of NT, it is religious invective. Such ambiguation is present in the texts themselves and works as long as the social theory (Josephus) part remains isolated from the religion (NT) which commands action. When a relationship between the two becomes obvious, the macaulayite nature of the “revolutionary movement” also is seen.brihaspati wrote: There are parallel studies which find the early Christian movement to be a political one, which either started off as a revolutionary movement or was taken up as such a revolutionary movement by disgruntled sections of the Roman society.
The personal expands into the impersonal at a certain stage.sanjeevpunj wrote: In the Gita,Lord Krishna clearly says "Abandon all forms of religion and surrender unto Me".There is an authentic voice behind this statement,a personality, not any impersonal concept of an imaginary god. Krishna says it with complete clarity, and it is proving to be true today.
No, no that is certainly not the case. You cannot equate a Mao with a Ramakrishna.sanjeevpunj wrote: each individual has a point of view, and it is equally valid.Simultaneous multiple assertions of the same truth in different ways, enhances the experience of it.
The Protestant Churches have essentially been Masonic institutions right from their inception in the 16th century. The Catholic Church has been taken over post the "Vatican II" reforms in the 1960's. Communism is also a similar animal. Different dupes have different tastes and thus need different pretexts.Lalmohan wrote:the xtian right wing in europe is not centred in britian, but british nazis have joined it eagerly - and english is ofcourse the lingua franca. this movement is far more dangerous than the street thugs with flags, these are the psychos who blow up railway stations like bologna and do these shooting sprees, etc. every european nation has members, but its more of a north euro thing
Page 1167The European Military Order and Criminal Tribunal (the PCCTS - Knights Templar) was created by and for the free indigenous peoples of Europe. One of the primary purposes of the tribunal and order is to attempt/contribute to seize political and military control of Western European multiculturalist regimes and to try, judge and punish Western European cultural Marxist/multiculturalist
perpetrators (category A, B and C traitors) for crimes committed against the indigenous peoples of Europe from 1955 until this day.
PCCTS, Knights Templar message to all minority groups and mixed individuals Know that we, the PCCTS, Knights Templar, are not a racist organisation. Individuals of all races, providing that they are Christian, can join and fight for the Knights Templar as Justiciar Knights. Your contribution for the conservative cause will guarantee you and the loyal members of your family permanent residency in Europe. You will be embraced as a fellow citizen if you shed blood with us, have no doubt about that. The future of all minorities in Europe will depend on where their loyalty is and will NOT be based on their skin color or ethnic origin. Needless to say; individuals that have proven to be disloyal (by directly or indirectly supporting cultural Marxism/multiculturalism) will have no future in Europe and will be deported. So called neutrality until the day of the takeover/coup d’état will not be an option if you want a future in Europe. You must be able to prove your loyalty by establishing a verifiable track record (support or membership to a conservative non-violent or revolutionary organisation) in order to prove your loyalty. Conversion to Christianity, changing of name (where applicable) or change of customs at an early stage will also support your candidature for permanent residency. It is only a slight possibility that it will be the Knights Templar that will be the dominating conservative force in your country when this may apply. Obviously, the rules and requirements for permanent residency will be set by the new regime and not by us. As such, consider these guidelines as an expected equivalent to what you can expect.
The European Resistance Movement/Indigenous Rights Movement – PCCTS, Knights Templar offer a full pardon to the Western European multiculturalist regimes, the MA 100 alliance (political parties) and all category A and B individual traitors if they capitulate to our military forces by January 1st, 2020
The Order and Tribunal has concluded that any and all Europeans
have not just a right, but a duty to resist through political and military means; cultural Marxist/multiculturalist atrocities and crimes committed against the indigenous peoples of Europe. As such, any European Christian conservative can act as a Justiciar Knight. This
includes Christian agnostics and Christian atheists. Although the PCCTS, Knights Templar is a pan-European indigenous rights movement we give all Europeans, regardless of skin colour, the opportunity to become a Justiciar Knight as long as the individual is either a Christian, Christian agnostic or a Christian atheist.
All Justiciar Knights must ask themselves; should I manufacture explosives or just stick to fire arms? This decision really boils down to what you expect to accomplish. A well planned assault with an assault rifle may kill 30 category B traitors, while an unsuccessful explosive manufacturing process might result in 1 dead Justiciar Knight and thus 0 traitor executions.
Page 1027The Chernobyl disaster broke the back of the Soviet Union. A new Chernobyl disaster in the heart of Western Europe will break the back of the EUSSR, have no doubt. Causing a new Chernobyl disaster on a multiculturalist regime would completely cripple them and might eventually lead to the collapse of the EU altogether or any targeted individual regime. However, it would potentially cause massive civilian suffering and/or hundreds of thousands or even millions of internally displaced individuals (refugees). A new Chernobyl disaster in the heart of the EU will not be as devastating (civilian suffering) as that in Ukraine/Belarus. Western European regimes will not wait a week before informing and evacuating the public so the number of individuals affected will be significantly less (estimated to less than 10 000-50 000).
It may be required to make such sacrifices in order to end this experimental multiculturalist nightmare and genocide. Sometimes, the situation requires us to be cruel
and kill a limited number of civilians (indirect casualties in shock/sabotage attacks) in
order to prevent much more severe long term atrocities against our peoples. In fact,
from a pragmatical viewpoint, it would be inhuman not to act in a cruel manner when the
alternative is much worse. Just focus on targets that can be morally justified and accept
casualty numbers that are far from exceeding the alternative future atrocities.
If we successfully manage to seize political and military control of at least one Western
European country in phase 1 (as a result of a regime collapse caused by the nuclear
power plant attack) we may actually manage to deport all Muslims before they become a
majority, and by doing so we potentially save millions of European lives from the war that
most certainly awaits us when the Muslims in any given country become the dominating
force and grow overconfident. Inflicting cruel cancer deaths on 1000 - 10 000 Europeans
(in P1) might actually be the most humane thing we do, if their sacrifice contributes to
prevent a bloody Christian-Muslims civil war (in P3) resulting in millions of deaths. And
what if we lose the Christian-Muslims civil war in P3? A worst case scenario will be a
repetition of the Hindu Kush genocides (80 million massacred Hindus, 100 million
enslaved) resulting in the massacre and enslavement of an equivalent amount of
Europeans should the Muslims dominate us one day.
The PCCTS, Knights Templar will allow all Western European regimes to capitulate to our
demands and we are hereby giving them a deadline which is January 1st, 2020. We will
not initiate any nuclear power plant attacks until the deadline has passed (we will instead
focus on non-nuclear attacks until then). However, if the Western European
multiculturalist regimes do not fully implement our demands - stop the European
genocide, deport all Muslims from Europe and ban multiculturalism as an anti-European
hate ideology - by this date, we are committed to effectuate ALL necessary measures in
order to stop them from annihilating everything European (see complete overview of
demands in another chapter). This decision is not mine to make but must be decided by
future Justiciar Knight Commanders based on several factors
Two questions : Will the Old Testament, the Quran, and Lenin's "State and Revolution" also qualify as hate manifestos? All of them reco repression and coercion on those outside the "group" - just for not belonging to the "group".Manny wrote:Al Qaeda's Christian mirror
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Eco ... 6Dj04.html
The overlapping strands of al-Qaeda ideology can be examined in detail in volumes such as Al-Qaeda in Its Own Words, edited by Gilles Kepel and Jean-Pierre Milelli, and published in English by Harvard University Press. Lone Breivik also concocted his own hefty, 1,500-page hate manifesto [1], titled 2083: A European Declaration of Independence, where he equally thrashes liberalism, multiculturalism and "cultural Marxism", which are allegedly destroying European Christian civilization.
As much as al-Qaeda - under the ideological guidance of now leader Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri - embarked on defensive (and occasionally offensive) jihad against Christians and Jews, Breivik calls for no less than a Christian jihad to defend Europe from yet another Muslim invasion.
Kashmir conflict – biased coverage (anti-Hindu, pro-Muslim)
India in general – biased coverage (anti-Hindu, pro-Muslim)
Goals of Indian Hindu nationalists were identical to Justiciar Knights, Anders Breivik claimed
Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik hailed India's Hindu nationalist movement as a key ally in a global struggle to bring down democratic regimes across the world.
‘2080: A European declaration of independence' lays out a road map for a future organisation, the Justiciar Knights, to wage a campaign that will graduate from acts of terrorism to a global war involving weapons of mass destruction — aimed at bringing down what Breivik calls the “cultural Marxist” order.
India figures in a remarkable 102 pages of the sprawling 1,518-page manifesto. Breivik's manifesto says his Justiciar Knights “support the Sanatana Dharma movements and Indian nationalists in general.” In section 3.158 of the manifesto, he explains that Hindu nationalists “are suffering from the same persecution by the Indian cultural Marxists as their European cousins.”
“Appeasing Muslims”
The United Progressive Alliance government, he goes on, “relies on appeasing Muslims and, very sadly, proselytising Christian missionaries who illegally convert low caste Hindus with lies and fear, alongside Communists who want total destruction of the Hindu faith and culture.”
Even though Hindus who are living abroad “get an eagle's view of what's happening in India, Indian Hindu residents don't see it being in the scene.”
Breivik's manifesto applauds Hindu groups who “do not tolerate the current injustice and often riot and attack Muslims when things get out of control,” but says, “this behaviour is nonetheless counterproductive.”
“Instead of attacking the Muslims, they should target the category A and B traitors in India and consolidate military cells and actively seek the overthrow of the cultural Marxist government.”
“It is essential that the European and Indian resistance movements learn from each other and cooperate as much as possible,” he concludes. “Our goals are more or less identical.”
Now, expect BJP to be pillored by "secular DDM" because a Norwegian loony visited their website!Breivik lists the websites of the Bharatiya Janata Party, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, the National Volunteers' Organisation, the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad as resources for further information.
The manifesto pledges military support “to the nationalists in the Indian civil war and in the deportation of all Muslims from India.” This is part of a larger campaign to “overthrow of all western European multiculturalist governments” and evict “U.S. military personnel on European soil.”
India is one of several countries — including Russia, the Philippines, China and Thailand — where Breivik hopes his successors will fight.
He uses the work of historians K.S. Lal and Shrinandan Vyas to point to the threat posed by Islam to Europe, saying their work has established that millions of Hindus were killed in a genocide during 1000-1525 AD. N.S. Rajaram, another historian, is quoted as saying India's “political class have been so debilitating that they continue to live in a state of constant fear.”