India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 25 Jul 2011 09:00

If he was trying to impress Yindians and sell EF2K, he achieved the opposite. He has pissed off people within the IAF. I would wonder how many customers would be happy if your seller dissed you/your work/products to sell you his products.

IMO He wasnt trying to impress any one, IAF knows how the rafale and eurofighter fare against the sukhoi and he ensured he passed credit to IAF. perhaps he was effectively trying to rule out (speculations?) of eurofighter's loss to rafale in simulated missions. presumably sukhoi's fared well against the rafale. Implications in this context, if the french offered rafale's to pak you still have sukhoi's to deal with. What if we ?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 25 Jul 2011 09:03

Ganesh_S wrote:
If he was trying to impress Yindians and sell EF2K, he achieved the opposite. He has pissed off people within the IAF. I would wonder how many customers would be happy if your seller dissed you/your work/products to sell you his products.
IMO He wasnt trying to impress any one, IAF knows how the rafale and eurofighter fare against the sukhoi and he ensured he passed credit to IAF. perhaps he was effectively trying to rule out (speculations?) of eurofighter's loss to rafale in simulated missions. presumably sukhoi's fared well against the rafale

He probably impressed the journo big time for him to report this at great length, using words not used by the RAF chief in his title, etc. I take all these wins and loses with a huge pinch of salt.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jul 2011 10:11

rakesh, I agree. however, having more internal fuel I thought it can get deep since refuelers say can't go beyond a certain safe zone, so depending on how deep the target is, could decide how much of internal fuel actually helps to return to get refueled again.

on the side stick, it was in response for left and right swapping of the controls. I was not sure, if it can be done. now, if they are redundant dual, then it should be a stand by programmable for leftie pilot. I read, that the left is for throttle only.. wrong?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Jul 2011 10:33

Shrinivasan wrote:
D Roy wrote:Ha ha HA.http://twocircles.net/2011jul24/british ... cises.html
I am surprised with this statement from the RAF chief, incidentally he was in Kalaikunda for ID2010. None of the Indian or international rags reporting the event drew such a conclusion then. Also Sukhois would have been able to detect and get a lock even before the EF2Ks considering its powerful Radar (unless SU30s where operating in a dumbed down mode). It is "bad business" for RAF to ridicule IAF's prize possession at this crucial juncture that too after more than a year of the exercise. Unless the whole article is DDM/Lifafa. Or the EF2Ks have been badly beaten by Katrina Kumaris in the MMRCA deal that the RAF cheif has gone on a rampage... doesn't make sense anyway I see it.

He's been completely frank in his interview. The facts themselves aren't surprising. After all, many folks are convinced that the Rafale can stomp all over the PLAAF's MKKs. While the MKIs are better, they're not in an altogether different league. The MKI has a powerful radar yes, but the Captor-M is no slouch either. There is a stark difference in the RCS values for both aircraft though. In addition the EF has advantages in agility, sensor fusion, drag and ergonomics. It brings more energy to a BVR fight than any other aircraft except for the F-22. I doubt if the joint exercises were designed to let the MKI exploit its edge, i.e. its huge endurance.

So I concur with the RAF chief - on the balance, the EF is better. As is the Rafale. And that's one of the reasons why the IAF down-selected the pair over other cheaper fighters.

With regard to his evaluation of the IAF's professionalism, his exact statement was - "I would say the IAF crew that I have worked with and seen are every bit as clever as any other air crew in the world, and in many cases better."

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2011 11:03

The RAF Chief in an interview to FORCE magazine mentioned that viz a viz Typhoon , the MKI were equal to Typhoon below 20-30 K feet and about that the Typhoon was superior to MKI .

Obviously he is talking of BFM which took place at ex Indradhanush.

My take is both aircraft enjoys its own advantage in subsonic and supersonic regimes of flight it would just boil down to pilot taking aerodynamic advantage of its own fighter and he would win the day.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 25 Jul 2011 11:18

Jaik wrote:I went to the Southport Airshow in Lancashire this weekend.The crew of the Typhoon sounded pretty confident. As soon as they saw a few of us Indians( or should i say Injuns!), they made us feel very welcome, answered our questions etc.. Guess 10 Billion is a lot of wonga !Money talks! Never been made to feel more welcome than this. Felt really proud of our country and how we are slowly but surely moving up the ladder!

hmmm we somehow always feel "important" when graced by white-skin people.. have difficulty in understanding this facination.. may be some deep rooted inferiority complex..

on a side note.. OT.... is currently on a vacation in India and took a day long ride from New Delhi to Agra through Mathura Road... and some really interior villages of UP for an adventorous short-cut.... the condition of road is pathetic.. --highways are falling apart.(can you believe every 10 kms there is an "Engrezi sharab ki dookan... thandi beer ki dookan!! on a highway with highest accident rate..) poverty is stark... Agra is incredibly filthy.... the road signs to Taj Mahal is incredibly either missing or hidden by overgrown trees...
..and finally almost had a fist fight in Fatepur Sikri with some local muslim goons who have irrected illegal road blocks forcing people to park their cars in their facility and taking their "guides" for exorbitant prices driven by the make of vehicle you are driving --not a single cop anywhere in sight..!!... I just felt so gutted inside myself and then when I come to this forum driven by my ultimate passion.. i suddenly feel...billions of dollars spent....and our orgasmic delight at growing "power" of India... how detached are we from reality...siting in the comfort of air-conditioned rooms or cubicles whatever..

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jul 2011 11:27

Ganesh_S wrote:
well i would not presume US aims to gain leverage over india through MMRCA in terms of understanding op doctrines or changing the outcome of an conflict with india for some reasons. op doctrines may evolve or change in future combat scenario courtsey technological advancements, eventhough it certainly may add value to their knowledge repository but not worth being pursued as a critical objective unless war is at sight. Further any conflict between a superpower and an powerful economy is likely destabilise the global economy which is increasingly being dependant on a global supply chain. US is likely to pursue its economic interests with india for a long period to come.

There is some gain for them with this deal apart from the sale itself. Ops info can help them to have the Pak trained to engage India effectively. It is all about any edge they can get in the conflict.
We are not talking about conflict between large countries.

IMHO in US strugle to contain and weaken China ,India plays a key role. US has an immense influence over India's adversary Pakistan, which In turn is relying on China in its struggle against India. Combined with immense US covert operation capability in the region US strategist should be able to ignite the conflict b/w India and Pakistan if they see it beneficial for US interests in region. Recent round of saber rattling by both India and China shows that both sides are preparing ...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2011 11:34

prithvi wrote: i suddenly feel...billions of dollars spent....and our orgasmic delight at growing "power" of India... how detached are we from reality...siting in the comfort of air-conditioned rooms or cubicles whatever..

Interesting post and there is a certain amount of detachment with reality from what you would read or hear.

If you are rich and well off then it is really not a problem as you can bribe your way out but it is only the middle class/poor who suffer a lot.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 Jul 2011 11:38

NRao wrote:
well i would not presume US aims to gain leverage over india through MMRCA in terms of understanding op doctrines or changing the outcome of an conflict with india for some reasons. op doctrines may evolve or change in future combat scenario courtsey technological advancements, eventhough it certainly may add value to their knowledge repository but not worth being pursued as a critical objective unless war is at sight. Further any conflict between a superpower and an powerful economy is likely destabilise the global economy which is increasingly being dependant on a global supply chain. US is likely to pursue its economic interests with india for a long period to come.
well stated.

Furthermore, what happens if the MMRCA is fielded for the most part against China - something that should favor the US? would the US actually assist India in enhancing Indian strategies?

In fact LM and Boeing had both stated that they would share their experiences if the IAF had selected their air crafts.

Just as a FYI, the full scope of the Indian MiG-21 is unknown to the Russians - this from an very senior IAF pilot.

There is always something that is not said.

All this notwithstanding bugs in the product.

Why should a hefty buy like this would be limited to China? IAF is buying it, they should be free to use as the need arises. When we can buy agile newer jets without any cismoa shismoa instead of phat panting teens which could hardly carry anything and struggled to take off from Leh.

I didn't understand the red part, sharing experience regarding what? ToT ? Production?

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 25 Jul 2011 12:29

prithvi wrote:i suddenly feel...billions of dollars spent....and our orgasmic delight at growing "power" of India... how detached are we from reality...siting in the comfort of air-conditioned rooms or cubicles whatever..

sorry for the OT

my take

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 25 Jul 2011 15:33

IAF pushing opening of aircraft bids

Keen on getting 126 combat aircraft as early as possible, the Indian Air Force is pushing for the commercial bids of the two contenders - Eurofighter and Dassault - to be opened before the end of this month.

"We are pushing the Defence Ministry to open the bids of these two companies by the end of this month," a senior IAF official told PTI. After the opening of the commercial bids, the Defence Ministry will work out the L-1 (lowest bidder) in the tender on the basis of the life cycle cost of operating the two aircraft.

"There are around nine enclosures and each of them have 20 points which include parameters like labour cost, repairing and maintenance cost, cost of spare parts and their service ability and the man-hours required to maintain the aircraft. All this would be taken into account to determine the lowest bidder," the official said. As per the Defence Procurement Procedure, the vendors offering a military product at lowest price and meeting all the requirements are awarded the contract.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Jul 2011 16:10

Meanwhile at Air Tatoo RAF pilot praises Eurofighters fatigue free flying, focus as a fighter bomber

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 25 Jul 2011 16:16

There is some gain for them with this deal apart from the sale itself. Ops info can help them to have the Pak trained to engage India effectively. It is all about any edge they can get in the conflict.
We are not talking about conflict between large countries.

one problem, try fitting the chinese factor into the jigsaw. Also what kind of US interest's in pakistan would be in threat for them to respond in favour of pakistan ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2011 16:29

Why should a hefty buy like this would be limited to China? IAF is buying it, they should be free to use as the need arises. When we can buy agile newer jets without any cismoa shismoa instead of phat panting teens which could hardly carry anything and struggled to take off from Leh.

There was and seems to be a lingering camp that believes that the US products are meant for the US to gain more control over policies. So, if this is true, then the theory goes, that the US will throttle any conflict between India and Pakistan. (And, although I do not quite agree with that argument, I can see it being tabled.)

Let us assume that to be true. Then my question relates to an extrapolation of that argument. I would expect the US to aid India to the hilt if there were a conflict between India and China. So, would the US change positions and actually provide assistance to ensure that China does not win?

IF it is in the best interest of the US to see a "draw" - so to speak - between India and Pakistan (or I am sure thee those that believe that the US wants Pakistan to do better than India too - so be it), then I would entertain the thought that it is in the best interest of the US to ensure that India does not get butt get kicked by China and intervene to that extent.

I didn't understand the red part, sharing experience regarding what? ToT ? Production?

Good catch.

Should have said USAF/USN.

The USAF had stated that if India were to select the F-16IN then they would open their books of tactics, etc, etc, etc.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Jul 2011 23:01

Shrinivasan wrote:<Disclaimer>I have never sat in Rafale's cockpit, neither have I seen it in person</Disclaimer>
Apart from the fact that Rafale's cockpit is ROOMIER than the Mirage2K, if you see the pics of Shiv Aroor on the Rafale, he looks Comfy. Shiv is not exactly the lean & mean type. Short and Stocky is how we can characterize him. I also spoke to him about his couple of days ago after seeing the pics... he thinks Rafale's cockpit was pretty roomy. JMT.

Shiv Aroor short ? Have you seen him ? He's plump and tall. If he can fit into the Rafale's cockpit then I would guess every other IAF pilot would fit in comfortably as well.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jul 2011 23:04

did he dress himself up like a pilot with g-suite etc?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 25 Jul 2011 23:17

SaiK wrote:did he dress himself up like a pilot with g-suite etc?

When one is pulling Gs in a high performance fighter, it is required to be sooted-booted in G-suit. Nahin to phat jayegi.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jul 2011 23:34

Ganesh_S wrote:
There is some gain for them with this deal apart from the sale itself. Ops info can help them to have the Pak trained to engage India effectively. It is all about any edge they can get in the conflict.
We are not talking about conflict between large countries.

one problem, try fitting the chinese factor into the jigsaw.

So US needs to support India against PRC as US struggle to contain and weaken China. But US wants to keep India in an equal capability wrt to Pakistan. This is the contradiction of US policy on India where they want a stronger India to take care of the region but not a power independent of itself and having autonomous policy and power projections.

That is the reason for this elaborate policy since the reaction of Pak and PRC is based on US policy - past, present and future. Indians may not understand what Pak reacts to US policy in the region. Same with PRC.

India would be a foolish to go with this and would end up a messed up country.

IMHO in US strugle to contain and weaken China ,India plays a key role. US has an immense influence over India's adversary Pakistan, which In turn is relying on China in its struggle against India. Combined with immense US covert operation capability in the region US strategist should be able to ignite the conflict b/w India and Pakistan if they see it beneficial for US interests in region. Recent round of saber rattling by both India and China shows that both sides are preparing ...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jul 2011 23:45

oops.. did not realize he did fly. i take that back.

Kovy · Post by **Kovy** » 26 Jul 2011 00:14

Rakesh wrote: I think you need to see this video and then determine if the Rafale is as "roomy".

Well, I've sat several times in the Rafale cockpit (both M and C versions), as well as in Mirage III, F1, 2000 (B,C,N) and Jaguar.

The Rafale cockpit is, by far, the most comfortable and roomy of them all.... with plenty of room for giant legs.
The fact that the Head level display get out of the dashboard and is, therefore, very close to the pilot head gives the false impression that the cockpit is tight but that's just an impression.

Remember that when you look in the head level display, you look at a screen which is focused to infinity giving the impression of a very large display. In fact the HLD looks like the bottom part of your HUD as both displays are colimated at infinity.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Jul 2011 01:18

With regard to the Rafale's ergonomics, shouldn't it be compared with the EF instead of the Mirage-2000 and Jaguar? Otherwise you may as well start comparing it to the Gnat and Spitfire.

France24's Apoorva Prasad got to ride in both aircraft -

The Eurofighter has a highly advanced "man-machine interface". The cockpit is large, spacious and comfortable, and it feels very different from the cockpit of an F-16, Rafale, MiG-29 or Jaguar. But then, I belong to the joystick generation: I'm far more comfortable with buttons and screens than dials.

A day later, I flew the Dassault Rafale simulator under instruction by a test pilot and engineer. The Rafale's cockpit is tighter than the Eurofighter’s, but that doesn't mean that the Rafale, a slightly smaller plane, is less advanced technologically.

http://www.france24.com/en/20101201-fly ... lanes-jets

Will probably make only a marginal difference though.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Jul 2011 01:32

Rakesh Saar, I don't think I'll be popping open the bubbly as yet. I'd say the Rafale has about a 45% chance of winning (random figure of course). So I need to prepare myself to love an aircraft that I've been dissing (politely) for two years now, if fate proves I bet on the wrong horse.

That goes for Rafale lovers as well. We're forced by jingoism to love the winning aircraft regardless of our first love, so we may as well start moderating our opinions, eh?

I'm told the institution of marriage runs on the same principles.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 26 Jul 2011 01:53

There is some gain for them with this deal apart from the sale itself. Ops info can help them to have the Pak trained to engage India effectively. It is all about any edge they can get in the conflict.
We are not talking about conflict between large countries.

mention ops info being used by US to assist PAK and think of that being proliferated to PLAF. now the question is what interest is US pursuing wrt PAK ?

But US wants to keep India in an equal capability wrt to Pakistan.

is that why US offers advanced platforms to IND in comparision to PAK ? and how does US mitigate the defence budget deficit between these countries.

This is the contradiction of US policy on India where they want a stronger India to take care of the region but not a power independent of itself and having autonomous policy and power projections.

I would say this to be an ambiguity since there are contextual elements like GWOT to be considered aswell and isnt the widening between US-PAK relation's being evident now

India would be a foolish to go with this and would end up a messed up country.

certainly not ! India analyses its options stringently that's the reason euro birds as the offensive (my assumption) platform to avoid intervention for peace by US.

US has an immense influence over India's adversary Pakistan

so does china.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Jul 2011 01:56

Ganesh_S wrote:
India would be a foolish to go with this and would end up a messed up country.
certainly not ! India analyses its options stringently that's the reason euro birds as the offensive (my assumption) platform to avoid intervention for peace by US.

I agree with this. And Euro birds are the correct choice. This is what I meant.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 26 Jul 2011 02:32

Ganesh_S wrote:what i eventually meant was the importance of this deal to US may have been to strengthen its leverage over Pakistan while rejection of US birds may signify denial of this advantage to the US as india bears the price. I would disagree on Cohen's assesment that past US hostile beheviour leading to mistrust had any role to play in India's denial as this logic doesnt seem to be applicable on other platforms India buys from the US.

I did hint this implicitly early on

Kovy · Post by **Kovy** » 26 Jul 2011 02:35

Viv S wrote:With regard to the Rafale's ergonomics, shouldn't it be compared with the EF instead of the Mirage-2000 and Jaguar? Otherwise you may as well start comparing it to the Gnat and Spitfire.

I was only replying to the claim that the Rafale cockpit might be too tight for Indian Pilots.
And my point is : If Indian pilots already fit into the Mirage 2000, the jaguar and the LCA, then they will fit even better in a Rafale.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Jul 2011 02:36

Shrinivasan wrote:
NRao wrote:OK. Sorry, found it. 86 single, 40 dual.
This ratio of 1:2 seems pretty high for IAF, traditionally they have bought 1:8 (in a squadron of 18 planes they'll have 2 dual seater / trainer and the rest 16 single seaters). Eventhough I have no reason to dis-beleive AWST or an alternate data point to prove it otherwise.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... ia%20MMRCA I still consider this number suspect. What do gurus think?

It is the actual number as given by Boeing, which makes it quite reliable. the IAF started believing in the value of twin seaters after it inducted the MKI.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jul 2011 02:53

If helmet mounted fire control system is offered to IAF, then I guess we could utilize IAF's weapons afsar pilot to actively engage with another mission on a different a/c.

http://www.stratpost.com/eurofighter-of ... met-to-iaf

--

Rakesh, here is the answer for the source code. I think it is an "YES": if we choose Ef2k.

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 58776.html
Asked if Eurofighter is willing to "give away" its unique selling propositions, source codes of radars and design for the "sake of 126 units", The consortium said it would not be an issue if India becomes a partner of the Eurofighter programme. In the meanwhile, the Eurofighter partner countries of Germany, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom are doing all they can to showcase and aggressively promote Typhoon as the world's most advanced swing-role combat aircraft.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 26 Jul 2011 04:29

MMRCA deal: IAF might order 63 more jets

NEW DELHI: The "mother" could well become the "granny" of all defence deals in the years ahead. India is likely to go in for another 63 fighters after delivery of the first 126 MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) if the "timelines" for its other fighter development projects are not met, say top defence officials.

When the MMRCA selection process was initiated by the defence ministry in mid-2007, the overall project cost was pegged at Rs 42,000 crore, or $10.4 billion for 126 fighters. But it will zoom well beyond $20 billion, if India eventually decides to opt for 189 jets since inflation is also being factored in. Even with 126 jets, this is the biggest such fighter contract going around the world as of now.

This comes even as MoD is all set to open the commercial bids of the two jets left in the MMRCA fray -French Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon -"within a week or two". Eurofighter Typhoon is backed by the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy,

MoD has already rejected "any scope for comeback" by the other four jets, including the American F/A-18s and F-16s, ejected out of the MMRCA race in April on technical grounds after gruelling field trials.

"We are looking for only 126 fighters. The first 18 jets will come from abroad, while the rest 108 will be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd after transfer of technology (ToT) from end-2016 or early-2017 onwards," said a senior MoD official on Monday.

"But yes, if the timelines for the Tejas LCA (light combat aircraft) and the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) projects are not met, we will go for more MMRCA to retain IAF's combat edge," he added.

Apart from progressively inducting 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, IAF is slated to induct the first lot of 120 indigenous Tejas from end-2013 onwards. India also hopes to begin inducting 250 to 300 FGFA from 2020 onwards under the joint project with Russia, which rough calculations show will eventually cost India around $35 billion in the decades ahead.

But that is in the future. The request for proposal (RFP) for the ongoing MMRCA competition, issued in August 2007, did have the standard clause of India reserving the option to go in for 50% more fighters, over and above the initial 126, in the coming years.

This, however, is the first time that top defence officials have directly linked the progress in the LCA and FGFA projects to the possibility of exceeding the MMRCA acquisition beyond the first 126 jets.

"Commercial bids of Eurofighter and Rafale will soon be opened, with the reports of the Technical Oversight Committee (TOC) and Technical Offsets Evaluation Committee (TOEC) virtually complete now," said another official.

But it will not be "a cut-and-dried" affair to determine the lowest bidder (L-1). "Calculation of L-1 will take around a month due to the huge amounts of mathematical and data verification of the lifecycle costs of operating the jets over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying, as well as cost of ToT," he added.

Final commercial negotiations with the L-1 vendor will then begin before the contract is ready for signing by December or January. IAF, on its part, wants deliveries of the 126 fighters to begin from December, 2014, onwards to stem its fast-eroding combat edge. Plans have already been firmed up to base the first MMRCA squadron at Ambala, with subsequent squadrons coming up both in the western and eastern theatres.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 26 Jul 2011 07:10

^^ If we look at Su-30MKIs order IAF may opt for more than that i.e., 250+ so that it can depend on fewer type of fighters by the time PAKFA & MCA will be roles out.

I prefer MRCA order will go to EF, since it is the youngest of all MRCA contenders (Except Gripen-NG) and we have SU-30MKI which can easily match Rafael.

But EF problem is Saudi's operate it and PAF will have the opportunity to have look at it.

I believe IAF is trying to decrease the types of fighters so that maintenance may get cheaper & easier

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 26 Jul 2011 08:47

Biggest deal: IAF may buy 189 jets for $20bn

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 364375.cms

"We are looking for only 126 fighters. The first 18 jets will come from abroad, while the rest 108 will be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd after transfer of technology (ToT) from end-2016 or early-2017 onwards," said a senior MoD official on Monday.

"But yes, if the timelines for the Tejas LCA (light combat aircraft) and the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) projects are not met, we will go for more MMRCA to retain IAF's combat edge," he added.

...

This, however, is the first time that top defence officials have directly linked the progress in the LCA and FGFA projects to the possibility of exceeding the MMRCA acquisition beyond the first 126 jets.

"Commercial bids of Eurofighter and Rafale will soon be opened, with the reports of the Technical Oversight Committee (TOC) and Technical Offsets Evaluation Committee (TOEC) virtually complete now," said another official.

But it will not be "a cut-and-dried" affair to determine the lowest bidder (L-1). "Calculation of L-1 will take around a month due to the huge amounts of mathematical and data verification of the lifecycle costs of operating the jets over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying, as well as cost of ToT," he added.

Final commercial negotiations with the L-1 vendor will then begin before the contract is ready for signing by December or January. IAF, on its part, wants deliveries of the 126 fighters to begin from December, 2014, onwards to stem its fast-eroding combat edge. Plans have already been firmed up to base the first MMRCA squadron at Ambala, with subsequent squadrons coming up both in the western and eastern theatres.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Jul 2011 09:41

kmc_chacko wrote: But EF problem is Saudi's operate it and PAF will have the opportunity to have look at it.

If we select it, we happen to be the makers and we will have our say if Pakis can access the Saudhi EF.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 26 Jul 2011 09:51

Chack doubt we can join now and dictate terms to Saudis. I don't think that would practically work.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Jul 2011 10:16

Cybaru wrote:Chack doubt we can join now and dictate terms to Saudis. I don't think that would practically work.

The company will. If it goes through, we will be joining the other side of the business. We should stop looking at the things from older prespectives when we were subjected to the treatment. Now, with us joining the new world order, we will be on the other side.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Jul 2011 11:20

Ganesh_S wrote:
I did hint this implicitly early on
Also what kind of US interest's in pakistan would be in threat for them to respond in favour of pakistan ?

Your question is also answered.
importance of this deal to US may have been to strengthen its leverage over Pakistan

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 11:50

Kartik wrote:It is the actual number as given by Boeing, which makes it quite reliable. the IAF started believing in the value of twin seaters after it inducted the MKI.

Boeing? where did Boeing come into play in MMRCA? did you mean Dassault?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 11:59

kmc_chacko wrote:But EF problem is Saudi's operate it and PAF will have the opportunity to have look at it.

I don't think Pakis having a Dekho of a Saudi AF EF2K would be a major factor (might not even be an issue)... See other examples.
1) Pakis operate C130s, not the C130Js but older variants. They could take a look at the J's being operated by Khan flying into Pakiland regularly or during exercises.
2) Cheena operates SU27/SU30MKK, they could have a really good Dekho of it.
3) Pakis themselves operate older variants of Mirages, half of middle east AFs have M2Ks (even superior variants as compared to ours) and Paki pilots are the rentboys to clean and grease these hangar queens. this has been going on for ages.
4) The F-16 offered by LM has been in Paki Inventory for ages, they now operate the Blk52 variant of it. UAE operates the Block 60 variant (the same one which participated in AI2011 and in some demos). Pakis would have been all over it.

The list can go on and on... but will it help, not really. Desh usually packs many bells and whistles of its own. creates an operational doctrine around it and our pilots train on Simulators and the actual plane like there is no tomorrow. Our birds and our pilots log more hours on the air than many air forces around the world.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 26 Jul 2011 14:20

About cockpit comfort and having sat in both the rafale-a good dozen of times at the paris air show 2005, 2007, 2009 and 2011, and the typhoon at the 2009 paris airshow I can say that while Typhoon cockpit is more roomy the sitting position is definitely less comfortable.

The rafale along with the F16 (which I also tested the cokpit) are the most comfortable fighters I tried due to the inclined seat and sidestick. That's a very relaxing position and the sidesticks fit very naturally in your hands. There are also supports for your front arms so you are sitting with all commands in hands without making muscular efforts. The inclined position is also comfortable for your legs.

Another thing that the rafale offer in terms of comfort is the tactical display right under the HUD. You can switch to "Head Up" to the tactical display with just a blink without looking in the bottom of the cockpit like the typhoon or most other fighters. It allows the pilot to perform more quickly and more efficiently the visual circuit between "outside" an "tactical display" giving a better situation awarness especially in a high stress/work environement. The cherry on the cake is the the tactical hollographic display is tuned so that there is no eye refocus from looking outside and inside and vice versa.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 14:25

^^^ Thanks Arthuro... very informative. I am glad the inferences from pictures have been validated by someone who has experienced it first hand.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jul 2011 16:32

$10b, $10.2b,$10.4b, $11b, $12b, and now it is 189 for $20b. who is playing with the numbers here?