Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jul 2011 16:46

Amitabh wrote:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 745188.JPG

zoom (ctrl + +) .. and check out the fins. Very interesting design, shows about people who worked on it [sdre-ng, but under sdre-og].

the tip has brahmos type design for the vertical launch.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jul 2011 17:01

SaiK wrote:
Amitabh wrote:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 745188.JPG
zoom (ctrl + +) .. and check out the fins. Very interesting design, shows about people who worked on it [sdre-ng, but under sdre-og].

the tip has brahmos type design for the vertical launch.

Please explain the interesting part and its correlation with sdre engineers

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jul 2011 17:21

double wedge-> lower drag, plus the deep cut serrated design has some distinct characteristics showing how they would have done based on CFD.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 23 Jul 2011 18:35

It looks like a vacuum test chamber to me.....It has ~6ft dia, dome shapped door is typical for vacuum coaters

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jul 2011 19:38

I had based my comment on the SLBM hatch seen below. seems to have the same pattern of locking 'teeth' along the rim..and the brahmos/xyz with fins folded is going in off-center, about where a 3 tube adapter would have sub-caliber tubes.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2600/389 ... e68f8b.jpg

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 23 Jul 2011 21:32

disha wrote: I am wondering why they stressed on the size of 200 Kg warhead. Why not say 300 Kg? This puppy can take a 300 Kg and hit somewhere around 100 Km easily. Is it that the strategic maal weighs just above 300 Kg and starts from there? Just speculating.

Through deliberate and clear equation with ATACMS, DRDO is fundamentally sending a signal that Prahaar is not meant for traditional BM role. It is for augmenting long-range artillery (MBRLs) and for saturation attacks against troop/armor/artillery concentrations, albeit in a guided role.

For the DDM which keeps talking about Prahaar meant for filling the gap between Pinaka and Prithvi, it is rather unsuitable analysis. Prithvi is against fixed land targets and not for saturation attacks over a wide area. It is meant for single-launch not multi-launch. Much like any MBRL, tactics using Prahaar will emphasize on multi-launch.

Instead of "filling the gap" -- if anything, Prahaar should be seen as extending the artillery range:
Pinaka (40km) --> Smerch (70-90km) --> Prahaar (150km)

After Pinaka-II with 100km range (currently under development), this will be:
ACCS augemented field artillery --> Pinaka --> Smerch --> Pinaka-II --> Prahaar

There are several indications as this to be the case:
1) quick reaction time
2) dimensions (length is similar to smerch, so is the payload and types of munitions)
3) specific emphasis on carrying 6X and near simultaneous launch like a MBRL

It also indicates that strategy for use of aircraft for saturation attacks is perhaps being reduced (not eliminated).

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 24 Jul 2011 01:26

Preparations apace for Agni V launch

Preparations for the launch of Agni-V in December 2011 are gathering speed, with all the three stages of the missile having been successfully tested at Jagdalpur in Chhattisgarh's Bastar district.
...

Report by TSS in The Hindu

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 24 Jul 2011 07:22

On the reusable missile concept, they got all these 3 technologies,

1) liquid fueled Brahmos ramjet missile, platform good aganist typical SAMs and AAMs, has way point navigation

2) Precision airdrop system in the 1 to 3 ton category, here is a link

http://frontierindia.net/drdo-develops- ... rop-system

allowing for slow landing approach

3) sturdy landing gear from Rustom UAV

if they can modify the Brahmos airframe for release of various munitions including Sudarshan enabled dumb bombs or Helina, add IFF, fit a landing gear similar to the Rustom UAV but flushed into the airframe

the mission would be vertical launch, release munitions at the correct way point(s), employ IFF, dash back, recovery by first hoisting into a hi profile inside safe airspace, slowing down, dump fuel,

option A) deploy the precision ram chute, approach landing strip, deploy landing gear as shock absorbers

option

deploy wings flushed to the airframe, the size of Dhruv's main rotor blades, glide back and land as a UAV (a design on these lines should challenge people who were saying UAV airframes are for grad students)

it will be good in engaging turds behind well defended airspace especially in the night with deniability and then it also addresses the cost aspect of Brahmos by reuse, this small R & D investment from DRDO's own coffers might prove to be a good value proposition for the Brahmos inventory; the Brahmos production line is booked until the end of this decade so a 2 year R&D effort falls well within schedule. Then there is news of Mr. Pillai saying that the sub launched and air launched versions are ready and he is just twiddling thumbs for the respective launch platforms to be ready

and later the same recovery mechanism can be applied to the solid boosters of GSLV for reuse, like to see a long and wide landing strip in Sriharikota for this purpose as much as for the RLV

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2011 07:49

from the Hindu article above:
DRDO rocket technologists said all the three stages of Agni-V would be fired by solid propellants. The missile, 17.2-metre long and weighing 50 tonnes and with a diameter of two metres, will be launched from a road mobile system from the Wheeler Island off the coast of Orissa.

In 2007, the DRDO developed a large rocket motor-casing made entirely of carbon filament-wound composite, a crucial step towards building Agni-V. This casing will form the third upper stage of the missile.

The DRDO will launch two more missiles by the end of 2011. In August, it will launch Agni-II, which can target places 2,000 km away. It will be launched by the Strategic Forces Command of the Army, which handles nuclear delivery systems. In September, the DRDO will fire the Agni-II Prime missile, which has a range of 2,500 km. The maiden launch of this two-stage missile failed in December 2010, because of a problem in the control system in its first stage.

I am sure the road mobile launchpad will just be a rail wagon fitted with road wheels like we see on republic day. I dont think there is any way they will deploy a 50t x 18m long missile to a road mobile trailer. good to hear A2-P is being retried.

weight of Agni-V will likely be reduced in future iterations by having the 2nd stage and finally the 1st stage as composites - like the tridentD5 missile...would likely deduct a couple of tons and increase the climb speed / throw range of third stage. maybe a A3-P or A2-P could try this idea out first. must be some challenges in having the bigger stages composite else everyone would be doing it.

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Jul 2011 10:44

Does Prahaar has radar seeker?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Jul 2011 11:26

In this photo of Agni II prime we can see a part of the launcher which seems to be Road-mobile

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 12:16

Kakarat wrote:In this photo of Agni II prime we can see a part of the launcher which seems to be Road-mobile

Great to have TSS back in "The Hindu". hidden in the Agni-V article is a snippet about Agni-II Prime, There is going to be a test launch of the missile in September 2011 before the Agni V launch in Dec 2011.

In September, the DRDO will fire the Agni-II Prime missile, which has a range of 2,500 km. The maiden launch of this two-stage missile failed in December 2010, because of a problem in the control system in its first stage.

There is also going be another Agni-II test in August 2011.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 12:18

r_subramanian wrote:Preparations apace for Agni V launch
Preparations for the launch of Agni-V in December 2011 are gathering speed, with all the three stages of the missile having been successfully tested at Jagdalpur in Chhattisgarh's Bastar district.
...
Report by TSS in The Hindu

Great news on the Agni-V front... Happy to note that Agni Program is charging ahead.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 12:27

Singha wrote:from the Hindu article above:
DRDO rocket technologists said all the three stages of Agni-V would be fired by solid propellants. The missile, 17.2-metre long and weighing 50 tonnes and with a diameter of two metres, will be launched from a road mobile system from the Wheeler Island off the coast of Orissa.
I am sure the road mobile launchpad will just be a rail wagon fitted with road wheels like we see on republic day. I dont think there is any way they will deploy a 50t x 18m long missile to a road mobile trailer. good to hear A2-P is being retried.

Good You brought this out, I was just about to comment and saw ur note... Road mobile launcher (wheeled rail wagon) is just to move the launch to a site farther away from the current launch sites which are pretty close to buildings etc. Also Desh might want to have an option of a Road Mobile launcher on a Maz like platform for the future when the weight of A-V is reduced further.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 24 Jul 2011 12:41

vic wrote:Does Prahaar has radar seeker?

Unlikely. Its a MBRL missile with sufficient avionics to provide 10m CEP accuracy.

It will be interesting to see what sort of conventional weapon loads will be incorporated into it.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 12:55

Nick_S wrote:...It will be interesting to see what sort of conventional weapon loads will be incorporated into it.

Weapons for Prahaar: it has been hinted that the "weapons developed for the Prithvi" would be used for the Prahaar too, you may ask Google Chachu for "prithi warheads" info and he will give you plenty. There was an old Arun_S article on BR Main site which has a whole of information. There is an interesting DefExpo picture showing multiple warhead types developed by Desh.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Jul 2011 12:59

^^
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/07/ ... teeth.html

Furthermore, the Prahaar’s range of warheads, which the DRDO has developed, gives the Indian Army multiple options. It could carry a cargo warhead containing bomblets that disperse over a wide area, killing any exposed troops. Alternatively, it could carry air-delivered mines, which spread across a piece of terrain, denying passage to enemy infantry or tanks. Or the Prahaar could carry a single, high explosive warhead that can demolish even the best-protected target or critical infrastructure.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 13:22

Could this Mystery myssile be Prahaar???
Ajai Shukla's blog had a quiz sometime back, there this picture was posted for identification. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/T ... issile.JPG Could this be the Prahaar missile?
I had my doubts based on the posn / size of the fins, but then it could be because of the angle.

disha · Post by **disha** » 24 Jul 2011 13:31

Shrinivasan wrote:Could this Mystery myssile be Prahaar???
Ajai Shukla's blog had a quiz sometime back, there this picture was posted for identification. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/T ... issile.JPG Could this be the Prahaar missile?
I had my doubts based on the posn / size of the fins, but then it could be because of the angle.

What is the booster doing there? Gas generator plus booster for a caniterized version?

If the booster is taken out., quite likely a Prahaar. Ruled out Shourya, since all the photos of shourya show a missile without a "booster" popping out.

PS: Added: Also the databoards (on the top right have been poorly smudged to wipe out any data points

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Jul 2011 13:32

I think thats a old SAM

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 24 Jul 2011 13:47

Shrinivasan wrote:Could this Mystery myssile be Prahaar???
Ajai Shukla's blog had a quiz sometime back, there this picture was posted for identification. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/T ... issile.JPG Could this be the Prahaar missile?
I had my doubts based on the posn / size of the fins, but then it could be because of the angle.

it looks like SAM-2 DVINA , It can been seen in pragati maidan in Delhi .. during trade fairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jul 2011 15:03

Ajai Shukla said something about a "Project Devil" Missile. someone else has posted a more clearer picture
http://frontierindia.net/wp-content/upl ... -devil.jpg.
This is what I found about Project Devil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Devil, sort of a precursor to the Current day SAMs and BMD missiles. The discussions/comments is Ajai Shukla's blog was interesting to say the least.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 24 Jul 2011 15:11

yeah so what is surprising.

Project Devil was pretty much based on Soviet SA-2s. it was a sort of SSM derivative.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Jul 2011 16:16

I had a Q about the Prahaar, What guidance does it use? Inertial only or with some sort of GPS.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 24 Jul 2011 21:08

The missile can be launched from its canisters within two to three minutes without much preparations, and can also be ferried on road and rail mobile launchers.

t is not known if the new missile will be armed with small, tactical nuclear bombs but it is the officially declared policy of the Indian Government that India would not use nuclear weapons first, and never against non-nuclear countries.

DRDO scientists however said that there would be an attempt to reduce the weight of the missile as the tests progress. Reduced weight of the propellant rocket would compensate for higher explosive package.

Indiastrategic on Prahar

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 24 Jul 2011 21:23

Is it true that Indian have comparably better CEP than US/Russian/Chinese systems?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Jul 2011 21:07

Rakesh wrote:Well said Kanson. Please note that not a single missile range that you see advertised by DRDO is the actual one. Everything is purposefully dumbed down to keep the enemy guessing, which leads to them allocating resources in a conflict which could be used elsewhere. Arun_S had proved that time and again with the Agni missile tests.

Thank You Rakesh. It could be that way. What we all(General public) can do is to estimate, predict general system capabilities. What we may not know is the exact way the system was or will be configured by DRDO as per User requirements. So we play humbly within our limits.

What is tested is only TD. As Saraswat mentioned in The Hindu, “With different types of warheads, you can have different types of missiles from the same launcher", as further highlighted by FI and by IndiaStrategic, there is possibility of introducing different warheads of different weights which could vary the range of missile, so these can be termed as different type of missiles from the same launcher.

pragnya wrote:
DRDO scientists however said that there would be an attempt to reduce the weight of the missile as the tests progress. Reduced weight of the propellant rocket would compensate for higher explosive package.
Indiastrategic on Prahar

==============
DRoy: Thank You. There was some murmur but don't know that USN inducted the missile.

Aksara · Post by **Aksara** » 25 Jul 2011 21:22

Kanson Sir, Dont call ppl posting on Bharat-Rakshak as general public!!!

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Jul 2011 21:46

Aksara wrote:Kanson Sir, Dont call ppl posting on Bharat-Rakshak as general public!!!

As long there is no official stamp, it would be termed as public opinion.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Jul 2011 22:13

abhinavjo wrote:Is it true that Indian have comparably better CEP than US/Russian/Chinese systems?

US Trident II D5 CEP 90m, this was developed in 80s

Russian Topol-M CEP 200m, this is most accurate missile in Russian inventory as per public resources.

Conventional Trident which is the latest variant of Trident missile is reported to have CEP of 10m.

Agni-III, though not an ICBM or MIRV, is reported to have single digit accuracy (The Hindu). If we can attain a similar feast in Agni-V we can say we are comparable to Americans.

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 25 Jul 2011 22:54

^ And as compared to Pakis?...any clue?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Jul 2011 22:57

for paki missiles you have to look at chinese and NoKo missiles. info about those are hard to get. accuracy of the missiles pak operates are quoted in the 400-500 m range IIRC.

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 25 Jul 2011 23:38

You say 400-500m, would that in anyway affect the size of a Nuclear warhead? I mean since our doctrine is not just blowing stuff up with the nuke, wouldn't the Indian missiles need a lower yield warhead to overwhelm a target as compared to the one with 400-500m?? or is that distance negligible enough to effect the size of a nuclear warhead?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jul 2011 23:43

did not read if prahaar can take out moving targets on the ground? (say: an important convoy or enemy logistic vehicle or some strategic missile launcher or air defence support vehicle).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jul 2011 01:02

@ abhi, that's correct, depending on target it does affect yield required. in fact, by 80's US experts started pointing out that low CEP meant that nukes were no longer necessary in many counter force strikes, conventional warheads would do. counter value strikes or deterrent strikes would however continue to need nukes. even here, you would need lower yield devices if you trust the accuracy.
btw, I don't think china's newer IRBM's or ICBM's are that inaccurate. 50-100 m is the figures I have seen.

psyki, that level of real time guidance that would push up costs like anything and defeat the purpose of a cheap-ish missile. let us not forget the economics, which after all more often than not determines the outcome of war. a salvo can however target a moving convoy with bomblets and mines.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 26 Jul 2011 01:12

SaiK wrote:did not read if prahaar can take out moving targets on the ground? (say: an important convoy or enemy logistic vehicle or some strategic missile launcher or air defence support vehicle).

I think Prahar on its own won't be able to take out moving targets with precision.( its made for stationary/area targets).

If it allows mid-course trajectory corrections in trajectory with a UAV to feed, then it may be feasible feed final coordinates of the target to the missile.
Lets assume prahar has 10meter cep
1. Lets say convoy moved at 40km/hr i.e. 11.11m/s and final course update at 20secs before impact
then the target can move about 230m(220+10) away and most probably the missile will miss it.

2. convoy moving at 20km/hr i.e. & update 10secs before impact
or
convoy moving at 10km/hr i.e. & update 20secs before impact
target will move about 120m(110+10) and may be hit with cluster/smart ammunition(but i am not sure about range of cluster ammunition).

3. for convoy moving at 10km/hr i.e. & update 10secs before impact
target will move about 65m(55+10) and is quiet likely to be hit.

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 26 Jul 2011 01:27

@ Rahul M
So if you say they are then taking that the Indian missiles CEP is around 2 times more accurate than Paki missiles. So we would probably then need a warhead half the size of what wud be in a Paki mijjile? IMHO that would mean that the total Indian weapons grade plutonium is actually half the size of our beloved neighbors?....which in proper context isnt so bad

This is then a great argument in favor of our Minimum Credible Deterrence Doctrine.

naved · Post by **naved** » 26 Jul 2011 06:39

if you're lobbing wee little nukes, it doesn't matter at all if CEP is 2 metres or 20 metres or 200 metres, the target will glow in the dark anyway. however, if you're going conventional, CEP is the ace up your sleeve. Looking at the awesome CEP paki mijjiles have, they'll probably end up hitting their own troops if used in any tactical scenario...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 26 Jul 2011 10:07

Gentlemen, the India Strategic Article has a gem which I just noticed.

The missile can be launched from its canisters within two to three minutes without much preparations, and can also be ferried on road and rail mobile launchers.

Rail Mobile Launchers
that would be great if we can pack couple of dozen Prahaars in a covered bogie and station it somewhere close to the border and boom, we can achieve a saturation attack (at the start of hostilities)... Road warriors can ride tango with our Armoured corps!!!

koti · Post by **koti** » 26 Jul 2011 10:26

I have a newbie question.

When a BM like Agni or Prithvi is launched, it will use and release the different stages of the rocket after that.
Does this mean that once the last stage booster is used up it will immediately get released or will it still be attached to the payload section?(And what about for a single stage missile for Prithvi?)

Also, I have seen control fins on the Agni I, II Re-entry vehicles, But they are not present on A III, Prahaar, Prithvi or Shaurya