"Christian" Fundamentalism in West

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
Dhiman
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 13:56

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Dhiman »

Lalmohan wrote: that said, i do believe that multi-culturalism in europe has gone too far and needs to be scaled back.
European multi-culturalism doesn't exist in vacuum. Europe has a clear and well demonstrated history of historically abusing various cultures of the world both through colonialism and through self-inflicted large-scale violence. For a long time "globalization" worked in Europe's favor. It still does today, but to a lesser extent. Multi-culturalism in Europe is a side-effect of this globalization (but not a result of some higher self-perceived morality that many europeans feel they are born with). One can't have their cake and eat it too.

When it comes to perpetrating historical violence, Europe will give the Islamic world a good run by any standard. Just because some Nordic idiot ended up shooting his own people doesn't negate this.
breivik wants his day in court and a platform to rant from. he's not going to get the latter. what he did was totally unacceptable. i am slightly disturbed to see some sympathy for his pov on BRF
More like ignorance from my POV (and apologies for saying this) when there is hardly anything in common between Norway and India both in terms of history, culture, and/or current themes. Surely the wide variance in the amount of daylight this country gets is driving some people crazy behind their peaceful facade. Not to mention the cold.
joshvajohn
BRFite
Posts: 1516
Joined: 09 Nov 2006 03:27

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by joshvajohn »

In Tamil we have a saying, "Allavukku Minjinal Amirthamum Nanji". It means any food -Elixir- more than sufficient amount it becomes poison. There are different social forces in every community trying to balance one with the other. But in its extreme forms they become poison to the society, whether it is faith, ideology or a concept.

Religious and Cultural extremism is a threat to all communities. One needs to keep watching on such extremistic ideologies and their activities. Plenty of such extremistic ideas are floated on the websites. If people are not careful to create counter narratives then such incidents may repeated. Liberal extremism is also a terror when it is imposed on people without certain consensus and discussions.

Does this action reflect the reactions against multiculturalism? or a reflection of Huntington's thesis (Clash of Civilisations) and the fault lines have comewithin Europe? not necessarily.

This guy's article shows his ability to grasp exact issues in the cultural liberalism and its weakness. The way he argues show that there is a connection between liberal culture through multiculturalism and Islamic expansionism into the West (at least in its claims).
The argument is straight forward in which he sees the presence of other cultural groups within his country as a cause of fall of his own culture and value system that leads to decay of his own community and nation and so those who are responsible must be eliminated is what is his logical conclusion.

Though the first part of his remarks on liberal cultural elements may be true his connections with Islamic influence into his country and multicultural influence as a result comes of out of popular ignorance about other cultures. This is where Edward Said's argument long back is still relevant (Culture of Ignorance).

Liberal cultural schools have also contributed towards such ignorance by criticising too much on the local cultural values and worldviews. It is essential to promote an understanding with other cultural groups while attempting to preserve one's own cultural values and worldviews.

To stop such activities in future, one must monitor any ideologies that promote ignorance about the other and also frustrate local cultures and values.

I have defined fundamentalism as if it is an attempt to return to fundamentals of one's core faith or concept. As long as it does not define an outsider as an enemy or evil, returning to fundamentals of one's faith is not an issue. If other is defined as enemy and there is an attempt to eliminate or remove the other then it becomes an extremism which is a threat to all people. some may even argue even the fundamentals of one's faith is exclusive and can lead to such extremism then such fundamentals need relooking or reinterpretation. Many of the monotheistic religions are undergoing this process of maintaining their uniqueness of their faith and their universal relevance on the one hand and on the other they also explore possibilities of how not to become extremists or completly exclusive of other faiths. This is where the contemporary attempts are made. You may see the recent document of WCC, Roman Catholic church and Evangelical traditions making a common statement against wrong conversions - proselytisation.

At times faith combined with some other ideologies such as right wing or socialism (in the case of Hitler) is automatically pushed towards such extemism by promoting a populistic ignorance about minorities. ....continue
Dhu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 16
Joined: 20 Jan 2009 08:57

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Dhu »

joshvajohn wrote:You may see the recent document of WCC, Roman Catholic church and Evangelical traditions making a common statement against wrong conversions - proselytisation.
Long-winded statements are not worth the paper they are written on. RCC intentions to deculturate Bharat and turn it into another Phillipines are quite clear from its actions, many of which are enumerated in Rajiv Malhotra's 'Breaking India'. That book also gives the most well research account of the history and theory behind the Church and *its* Western "institutions", especially their role in Colonialism.

Taqiya in ingrained into the Monotheist cults. Where is the guarantee that this latest document to come of the forgery mecca that is the Church is not dissimilar to the New Testament. The New Testament is ridden with hatred for the native culture of the Jews and in fact even blames them for them for the Killing of the Messiah; that is, the Jews crucify their own Messiah. While the natives are blamed for their own degradation, the real Roman colonizers who actually destroyed the Temple get a free pass. This is quite clear from th work of Joseph Atwill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNJf83bqjs
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14778
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Aditya_V »

Dhu-> By bringing conversions it will becoem a religion debate which the Admins specifically do not want, I would suggest you cease and desist from such line of posting. Otherwise it will become flame war with Admin action required.

Lets stick to topic, the Norway attack and its causes.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by brihaspati »

Fidel Guevara wrote
"need for a more nuanced approach from our side" - Why try that approach with a rabid dog that we know is going to eat us in the near-medium term?
I do not think anyone other than me has broached this - so I am assuming that this line ws for me. I am consistently tying up attitudes towards him with what is demanded of us as the required attitudes towards Maoist and Islamist atrocities.

It does not imply that I support what the Islamists and Maoists and EJ's do. But my point is simply that if Islamists and Maoists are sought to be protected from the backlash for such actions why is it that we are being asked to focus our condemnation and hatred for this guy's actions? The selective protection afforded to Islam and Marxism only, then implies a deeply perfidious intellectual ambience that revels in sadism but does not want to extend the right to enjoy such sadism to groups that they in the darkest recesses of their mind - absolutely hate or see as competitors.

When people have claimed loudly and long on the forum that the congrez-lefties have been right in taking a "nuanced" approach towards Islamism and Maoism - are we saying that these two are not rabid dogs but some other animals who are going to eat us in the near-medium term, or that they are rabid dogs but who are going to eat us in far-medum or near-long or far-long term - and hence it is okay to take up a "nuanced" approach towards them?

No mind that does not condemn Maoists and Islamists and some of the EJ's who qualify - in the same terms that it condemns Breivik with - is actually not against what Breivik stands for in the core of his ideological basis, not against the claim to perpetrate atrocities on any social group that is seen as not "belonging". That mind is only against Breiviks use of this claim but not against the claim itself. Any call for a nuanced approach towards Islamists and Marxists while condemning Breivik is perfidy of the highest order.
Manny
BRFite
Posts: 859
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 22:16
Location: Texas

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Manny »

joshvajohn wrote: At times faith combined with some other ideologies such as right wing or socialism (in the case of Hitler) is automatically pushed towards such extemism by promoting a populistic ignorance about minorities. ....continue
In the case of Hitler, it was more of the right wing including religion.

http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

http://nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Lalmohan »

the nazis used religion for symbolism rather than foundational beliefs (IMO), they were happy to undermine the church and put many priests into concentration camps and execute them, particularly if they showed any dissent
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13531
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by A_Gupta »

Ishaan Tharoor:
But after nearly a decade of global hand wringing over al-Qaeda and terrorist networks of its ilk — a decade in which the capabilities of that most notorious of outfits has demonstrably dwindled — it's time to treat extremists like Breivik and the clandestine organizations and factions with which many of them dwell with the same intolerance.
One shouldn't deny that there are genuine (if perhaps misguided) grievances fueling this xenophobic surge and that it's a small blessing that many of these extremist groups get incorporated into the democratic process.

But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Breivik's actions are still rooted in an apocalyptic and wide-reaching hysteria that is arguably becoming more mainstream in the West than al-Qaeda's brand of puritanical hate ever was in parts of the Muslim world.

Read more: http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/0 ... z1TJ4XkBHx
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by brihaspati »

Nazis went against those Catholics who opposed them, but it is well-known that they collaboarted with other sections of Catholics - and at least one group of the RC church establishment helped many of the Nazis to escape the Allied dragnet post war.

Nazis applauded and recruited Islamists too - Himmler's laudatory comments exist, and they even tried forming a "Muslim/Turk" battalion towards the end. There was also the case of Nazis having a lovey-dovey relationship with the so-called grand Mufti of Palestine [an ancestral relative of Yasser Arafat] who was however recruited and put in his position by the Brits - who lobbied hard to help in the genocide of the Jews. [Maybe we should try and dismiss this as Jewish propaganda against pious and peaceful Muslims who should never be seen as ever matching in support of extremism as non-Muslims can be - a la Ishaan Tharoor].

It is perhaps not known that much at least one Nazi offshoot in Eastern Europe firmly linked itself to the Church. By the logic of "appreciation" should we not reserve the treatment we are claiming for "Hinduism" by Breivik - to Islam too because of the Nazi appreciation of Islam?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by shiv »

Where can I download this guy's manifesto?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by shiv »

Just wondering if Breivik might be the single most intelligent anti-Osama that the western world has produced - especially when you compare him with the likes of plodders like Dubya under whose watch 9-11 occurred.

Osama was brainy enough to strike a sudden hard blow that sent a message that echoed well with the religion of war in the name of peace. The message went far beyond Osama because of his unique method of sending it.

Breivik has done something similar. In fact I am amazed at the guy's guile. There seems nothing stupid about him. He has ensured that his message will be read by the maximum number of people in the world. Nothing will stop that - no matter what happens to him. No sane human will praise or love Breivik for what he did - but like the pain of countless genocides and mass murders in the past - the pain will pass. The message will stay.

In 10 years from now if someone says "I support Osama's cause" someone else can say "And I support Breivik's cause"

Both may be mass murderers - but that is a side issue - it is like the bell carried by a town crier to attract attention.
Dhu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 16
Joined: 20 Jan 2009 08:57

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Dhu »

Nazis are united with Christians in that both are animated exclusively by the monotheist dynamic. In fact, Nazi anti-semitism becomes quite unintelligible if divorced from the glorious christian history of the same. Nazis tried to steal away the orientalist/romantic dynamic from the internationalists while developing a "scientific" basis for the monotheist dynamic via race theory. THe internationalist marxists, in contrast, tried to craft a scientific basis for the monotheist dynamic by shedding the Orientalist portion of colonialism and replacing with economic theory. These were necessary because of .
Notable in the current fellow is a reversion to Nazism without race theory and without orientalism.
shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2212
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by shravan »

shiv wrote:Where can I download this guy's manifesto?

http://media.blubrry.com/kevinislaughte ... ndence.pdf

PDF (7.7MB)
sanjeevpunj
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 13:10

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by sanjeevpunj »

shiv wrote:In 10 years from now if someone says "I support Osama's cause" someone else can say "And I support Breivik's cause"
Both may be mass murderers - but that is a side issue - it is like the bell carried by a town crier to attract attention.
Image
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashurama

Lord Parashurama, who appeared before Lord Rama, destroyed 21 generations of corrupt Kshatriyas. If that is not a source of inspiration, then show me another.Destroying the downright corrupt people is and was and will always be acceptable,they have sold their souls.
Last edited by sanjeevpunj on 27 Jul 2011 18:18, edited 2 times in total.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14778
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Aditya_V »

shiv wrote:Just wondering if Breivik might be the single most intelligent anti-Osama that the western world has produced - especially when you compare him with the likes of plodders like Dubya under whose watch 9-11 occurred.

Osama was brainy enough to strike a sudden hard blow that sent a message that echoed well with the religion of war in the name of peace. The message went far beyond Osama because of his unique method of sending it.

Breivik has done something similar. In fact I am amazed at the guy's guile. There seems nothing stupid about him. He has ensured that his message will be read by the maximum number of people in the world. Nothing will stop that - no matter what happens to him. No sane human will praise or love Breivik for what he did - but like the pain of countless genocides and mass murders in the past - the pain will pass. The message will stay.

In 10 years from now if someone says "I support Osama's cause" someone else can say "And I support Breivik's cause"

Both may be mass murderers - but that is a side issue - it is like the bell carried by a town crier to attract attention.
And he knew that he can just surrender in his country, take 15 years in Prison, come out on Parole and enjoy his life from the late 40's aand have good food, entertainment at prison as well.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34916
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by chetak »

brihaspati wrote:Nazis went against those Catholics who opposed them, but it is well-known that they collaboarted with other sections of Catholics - and at least one group of the RC church establishment helped many of the Nazis to escape the Allied dragnet post war.

Nazis applauded and recruited Islamists too - Himmler's laudatory comments exist, and they even tried forming a "Muslim/Turk" battalion towards the end. There was also the case of Nazis having a lovey-dovey relationship with the so-called grand Mufti of Palestine [an ancestral relative of Yasser Arafat] who was however recruited and put in his position by the Brits - who lobbied hard to help in the genocide of the Jews. [Maybe we should try and dismiss this as Jewish propaganda against pious and peaceful Muslims who should never be seen as ever matching in support of extremism as non-Muslims can be - a la Ishaan Tharoor].

It is perhaps not known that much at least one Nazi offshoot in Eastern Europe firmly linked itself to the Church. By the logic of "appreciation" should we not reserve the treatment we are claiming for "Hinduism" by Breivik - to Islam too because of the Nazi appreciation of Islam?

Right you are saar.

The church was complicit in very many cases. A matter of ancient scores being settled perhaps. :)

The association often reached the rarefied heights of the rigidly hierarchical church.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by RajeshA »

shiv saar,

this guys requires a thorough piskoanalysis. I am sure you will find his manifesto extremely rich in piskostudy. :)
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Agnimitra »

shiv wrote:
The gunman on the.... suggests that “non-Muslim” Bangladeshis, Indians and Pakistanis would be good candidates for a serf class who would live in separate ghettos and work 12 hours a day to clean, garden, carry out construction and drive taxis for their European masters.[/b]

“This is not slavery as slavery is taking away peoples freedom,” he claimed.[/q]
This idea was thought of and implemented centuries ago but went out of fashion and it was thought convenient to say that one particular religion was responsible for the idea. All humans it was said , are equal. Full circle. It seems.
But the Vedic idea says that there is nothing wrong with hierarchies of privilege and service .... so long as all individuals have the opportunity to cultivate and use their innate potentials for the summum bonum (guna karma vibhaagasaH). This guy's idea mimics the classification and compartmentation, but does so on the basis of a re-tribalization of society based on pre-existing race and cultural blocks, and socio-economic compulsions alone. There's an abyss of a difference between daivi varnaashrama and its asurik mimickry, as we ourselves have learned the hard way as a civilization. So again, I would be careful before drawing any parallels between our situation, ideas and objectives and those of Western rightwingers. They borrow ideas and b@stardize them to justify their own purposes - whether practical or romanticist.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Lalmohan »

yes the RC church in particular supported fascism - not just in germany and italy, but all over europe, and also backed the croats vs. the serbs and did much else besides - primarily driven by a fear of communism - which openly proclaimed they wished to destroy the church. but i'd say in this case it was a marriage of convenience. unlike say the dutch reformed church which actively supported apartheid
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:shiv saar,

this guys requires a thorough piskoanalysis. I am sure you will find his manifesto extremely rich in piskostudy. :)
Aaah! 1400 pages! An entire holy book to be revered down the ages with selective quotes, lack of real reading or insight that might make you call its bluff, and support from a multiplicity of "experts" whirling the text above their otherwise empty heads and claiming wisdom from the text. Breivik may be a Prophet no? If you disagree - heck - every Prophet has had opponents. Just you wait. Do your holy leaders not predict that the next Prophet would be a fair complexioned man from a white land in the North?
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by RajeshA »

Carl wrote:This guy's idea mimics the classification and compartmentation, but does so on the basis of a re-tribalization of society based on pre-existing race and cultural blocks, and socio-economic compulsions alone.
Good formulation!

This seems to be one of the weak points of Anders Behring Breivik's manifesto. There is no need for re-tribalization. He need not be against "Multiculturalism" as such, as long as it is defined as

Co-existence of multiple cultural blocks side-by-side in a given geographical area, as long as these are compatible cultural blocks, compatibility being:
  • Each cultural blocks respects and supports the cultural health and liveliness of the other and its own separate identity.
  • The migrated cultural block does not do any aggressive proselytizing but still welcomes the other.
  • The immigrant cultural block is law abiding
  • The immigrant cultural block integrates well w.r.t. the language, customs and culture of the host cultural block
  • The immigrant cultural block accepts the dominance of the host cultural block in the given geographic area
  • The immigrant cultural block does not demand that the state adopts its cultural elements
joshvajohn
BRFite
Posts: 1516
Joined: 09 Nov 2006 03:27

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by joshvajohn »

Famous Christian theologian (not Catholic but protestant) wanted to assasinate Hitler and organised groups of people.Later Hilter found this out and executed him just before his death. I have to agree with the points that many Christian theologians and churches stood by Hitler at that point of time. Particularly the Popes of that time could have done more to save many lives.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... effer.html
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by RajeshA »

I found the parts where Anders Behring Breivik explains the reasons why "Liberal Left"/Marxists support Islamist causes and Muslims as illuminating.

His introduction of "Cultural Marxists" into the vocabulary is enriching for the debate.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Agnimitra »

A_Gupta wrote:
More extreme principles-
Support the dismantlement of Protestantism in the Nordic countries, the UK, Germany (replacing it with Catholicism).
As far as most Europeans are concerned, the first two won't really affect them. But
as far as I know, historically, the Protestant-Catholic fight was very bloody; North Ireland is in part at least a Protestant-Catholic fight; this last is something Europe would not want to repeat. Yet Brievik suggests it.
I wonder why Breivik favours a consolidation of the West under Roman Catholicism. I've seen even Jewish Zionist writers promote the revival of Catholicism as an overarching institution under which a supposedly degenerate West succumbing to demographic and economic decline can be re-invigorated. What is it about the Catholic Church that makes parts of the Judeo-Christian lobby favour it at this time? In recent times Pope Benedict has also made provocative pronouncements about Islam. Wonder what's brewing.
Fidel Guevara
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 21 Jan 2010 19:24
Location: Pandora

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Fidel Guevara »

brihaspati wrote:Fidel Guevara wrote
"need for a more nuanced approach from our side" - Why try that approach with a rabid dog that we know is going to eat us in the near-medium term?
I do not think anyone other than me has broached this - so I am assuming that this line ws for me. I am consistently tying up attitudes towards him with what is demanded of us as the required attitudes towards Maoist and Islamist atrocities.

Any call for a nuanced approach towards Islamists and Marxists while condemning Breivik is perfidy of the highest order.
This was actually in response to Carl's note that we need a nuanced approach.

For how long are we going for a nuanced approach is the question...we can probably live out our lives in a more-or-less similar world as we see today.

Our kids will live in a world that is far more dangerous and where their individual rights will be under attack, because their previous generation opted for a "nuanced approach".

And our grandkids will pay jizya and have sharia law, whether you live in India or in Norway.

As Shiv put it, this guy is like another Osama - you disagree with his methods, but can't refute that his actions have brought the issue front and centre.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by RajeshA »

Carl wrote:I wonder why Breivik favours a consolidation of the West under Roman Catholicism.
Roman Catholicism is all about cultural heritage, about dogma, about institution, about hierarchy, about customs. That is exactly what Anders Behring Breivik is promoting.

In Protestantism, there is far less structure and it is all about religious piety. But Anders Behring Breivik is not that interested in piety, but only in cultural identity.

One reason is that with Protestantism one always needs to be constantly galloping on the horse of piety. If one stops once for a break, the Protestant becomes "culturally rootless" and easy prey for the secular "Cultural Marxists".

In many European cities, Christianity has almost disappeared because of cultural shallowness of Protestantism and in times of weakness of faith, which is part and parcel of modern lifestyles, the inability of Protestantism to keep sway over its flock.

Protestantism is strong in Americas, because everybody there is wildly galloping on their piety horses.

Interesting part is that even though Anders Behring Breivik wants to renew the Order of Templar Knights, he still favors the Catholic Church, which played an important part in the dismantling of the Order. He even acknowledges that.

He has good reasons to advocate the Catholic Church.
Fidel Guevara
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 21 Jan 2010 19:24
Location: Pandora

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Fidel Guevara »

Carl wrote: I wonder why Breivik favours a consolidation of the West under Roman Catholicism. I've seen even Jewish Zionist writers promote the revival of Catholicism as an overarching institution under which a supposedly degenerate West succumbing to demographic and economic decline can be re-invigorated. What is it about the Catholic Church that makes parts of the Judeo-Christian lobby favour it at this time? In recent times Pope Benedict has also made provocative pronouncements about Islam. Wonder what's brewing.
Demographically the Catholic Church may be better, with their position on contraception and abortion

Historically the more hard-line anti-Islamist church has been the RCC, and most of the great victories of Christendom against the Muslims were fought under the banner of the RCC. It appeals to those who yearn for a world where Christ was carrying the fight to Islam, and not the other way around.
Last edited by Fidel Guevara on 27 Jul 2011 19:26, edited 2 times in total.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34916
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by chetak »

RajeshA wrote:I found the parts where Anders Behring Breivik explains the reasons why "Liberal Left"/Marxists support Islamist causes and Muslims as illuminating.

His introduction of "Cultural Marxists" into the vocabulary is enriching for the debate.

Don't miss page 1465.

He talks about Hindus and India.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Agnimitra »

Fidel Guevara wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Any call for a nuanced approach towards Islamists and Marxists while condemning Breivik is perfidy of the highest order.
For how long are we going for a nuanced approach is the question...we can probably live out our lives in a more-or-less similar world as we see today.
Fidel, Brihaspati ji -- A "nuanced" approach does not mean the same kind of "nuanced approach" that psecs and marxists use. Why did you equate the two?? They have a culturally rootless basis of appeasement. What is needed is a more genuine civilizational basis that we should work off of. From that platform, we can still adopt a far more nuanced and intelligent means of engagement with the ummah, instead of leaving the ummah hostage to the islamist ulema and talking only to the latter as psecs do.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by shiv »

Carl wrote:
This idea was thought of and implemented centuries ago but went out of fashion and it was thought convenient to say that one particular religion was responsible for the idea. All humans it was said , are equal. Full circle. It seems.
But the Vedic idea says that there is nothing wrong with hierarchies of privilege and service .... so long as all individuals have the opportunity to cultivate and use their innate potentials for the summum bonum (guna karma vibhaagasaH). This guy's idea mimics the classification and compartmentation, but does so on the basis of a re-tribalization of society based on pre-existing race and cultural blocks, and socio-economic compulsions alone. There's an abyss of a difference between daivi varnaashrama and its asurik mimickry, as we ourselves have learned the hard way as a civilization. So again, I would be careful before drawing any parallels between our situation, ideas and objectives and those of Western rightwingers. They borrow ideas and b@stardize them to justify their own purposes - whether practical or romanticist.
Carl - I sometimes have thoughts which could be described as mad by modern day standards of political correctness.

For example - every population of humans consists of a set of people who fall under a bell curve. Some are achievers and leaders, others are servants and workers, yet others are incapable and incompetent. Oh yeah Oh yeah I know. All humans are born equal. All equal in God's eyes blablabla.

But you see while kids grow up some are exposed to undernutrition and trauma, others are given perfect stimulation and perfectly nurtured, a third set are traumatized but well fed and so on. So the resulting human population is definitely varied in capability and potential no matter what God intended. In a normal human population you have all sorts of people. Some will be leaders and have the brain and body for that. Others will be serfs and have the brain and body to be happy as serfs. Life came first, evolution came next, societies came out of that. Human societies have evolved to structure themselves around the human population that they have.

Now if you approach this "normally evolved" human population with the viewpoint that "all human are equal, so lets keep them that way" then what you will attempt is an experiment where you tweak the things you things you think are wrong and "unbalanced". You reduce undernutrition, try and equalise education, stop color discrimination or other discrimination etc. What you are doing by that is to aggravate other imbalances that you know nothing about by fiddling with what you imagine is what needs to be fiddled with. From that you produce a uniform population who love everyone and are equally educated and remove some of the competitions in society with absolutely no idea how it is going to pan out in an entire society after 50 years or 75 years. If your experiment goes wrong - you could end up with a society that does not protest when it is being screwed. In many ways Europe is doing just that. And no one s bothered because no one sees any trouble from doing that. Maybe I am asking for trouble by saying this - but inequalities are an essential component of societies and you must not uniformly try to tweak societies to remove anything that takes your fancy as an "unequal situation" without any insight into why this society has survived till today with that inequality and how that society may change if you remove what you call inequality.

But if anyone were to say, in this day and age "Preserve and protect inequality and discrimination because it has an evolutionary role and a stabilizing value in that society" how far could he go before he is called racist or a bigot?

Breivik's genius is in sparking debate from people like us who think that we can think. Compare that effect with Kasab and his cretin Pakislami handlers. That was a self goal. Not this one. Both were mass murders.
sanjeevpunj
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 13:10

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by sanjeevpunj »

Got down to reading the manual at last, and here is my first reaction
(page 14) While the hour is late, the battle is not decided. Very few Western Europeans realise that Political Correctness is in fact Marxism in a different set of clothes. As that realisation
spreads, defiance will spread with it. At present, Political Correctness prospers bydisguising itself. Through defiance, and through education on our own part (which should be part of every act of defiance), we can strip away its camouflage and reveal the Marxism beneath the window-dressing of “sensitivity,” “tolerance,” and “multiculturalism.”Who dares, wins.
First of all, thanks for the link,Shravan ji.Managed to download the entire PDF before some psecs motivate the website to remove it.
After reading through the first 15-20 pages,I begin to see the depth of research this person has got into.I will not comment on his logic and analysis just yet,I am just learning at the moment.
First reaction-India is mentioned 255 times in the entire manuscript.Pakistan manages a score of 233 times.The word "hindu" comes up 238 times."Sikh" comes up 14 times.The word "muslim" comes up 3632 times.The word "christian" comes up 2218 times. So much for my obsession with Ctrl+F search.
Second reaction-I now know the meaning of the word "Hindu Kush" thanks to Srinandan Vyas, and Anders.I always thought those scenic mountains called Hindu Kush, were always staring down at us with suspicion and it seems now that suspicion is confirmed. The words "Hindu Kush" mean -"Hindu Killer"!Quoting again from the manual.
All Standard reference books agree that the name 'Hindu Kush' of the mountain range in
Eastern Afghanistan means 'Hindu Slaughter' or 'Hindu Killer'. History also reveals that
until 1000 A.D. the area of Hindu Kush was a full part of Hindu cradle. More likely, the
mountain range was deliberately named as 'Hindu Slaughter' by the Moslem conquerors,
as a lesson to the future generations of Indians. However Indians in general and Hindus
in particular are completely oblivious to this tragic genocide.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by brihaspati »

OT - but Hindu Kush meaning was lost because Indians began to use foreign languages without knowing roots. Kush==kill/slaughter. Moreover Hindu's are supposed to be a later invention - later than Islamic advent and establishment in India. If the foreigners were finding "Hindus" around "Hindu koh" [the Britannica and Thaparite wisdom] that goes against the whole area being devoid of Hindus and overrun by Buddhists. Hence all the need to twist it around. I heard the foriegn language "samaasa" from my granddad as a child - so the real meaning must have been known among many Hindus.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Lalmohan »

what was the original name for those mountains?
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Agnimitra »

Shiv ji, I don't think your thoughts are mad or politically incorrect. My 2c:
shiv wrote:Now if you approach this "normally evolved" human population with the viewpoint that "all human are equal, so lets keep them that way" then what you will attempt is an experiment where you tweak the things you things you think are wrong and "unbalanced". You reduce undernutrition, try and equalise education, stop color discrimination or other discrimination etc. What you are doing by that is to aggravate other imbalances that you know nothing about by fiddling with what you imagine is what needs to be fiddled with.
When someone says, "All humans are equal", we have to ask, "Equal in what way?" According to Vedic philosophy, there is no roopa-samatvam, but only bhaava-samatvam, i.e., there is no equality in terms of forms and material qualities, but rather there is equality and complementarity of the selective importances of their relationship with a higher power. For example, the Ramayana depicts the same principle in the episode of the ecstatic humiliation of Hanuman by Shri Ram in the presence of the tiny spider volunteer.

Just as the introduction of an arbitrary external element (such as "god", "hidden imam", "jinns", etc) to justify a system causes a recursive spiral of more and more mumbo jumbo and jinn technology explanations, so also, the management of selective importances is vital to the stability and clarity of the individual and social mind.

It seems here lies the crux. If a society or individual is not spiritually clear enough to experience work within a higher power, then it shall labour under lower physical and metaphysical force - such as forces of other human's machinations and the assaults of one's own memory and its psychological scars, macroscopic forces of nature, compulsions of physical limitation. The subtle difference between one and the other is the difference between self-determinism and fatalism.

Self-determinism does not mean absolute free will, but it is a virtuous spiral brought about by a conscious engagement or withdrawal from the natural course of present conditions. Whereas fatalism is a dwindling spiral of further and further entanglement brought about by unconscious or ignorant battle or resignation to present conditions.

The quality of guidance and the relationship between the guide, the people and the system is important. Hierarchies of service and privilege are daivi only in the presence of a Fourth Factor, indicated by Bhishma Pitamaha on Kurukshetra:

brAhmaNyaM durlabhaM lokE
rAjyaM hi sulabhaM naraiH |
brAhmaNyasya prabhAvAddhi
rathE yuktau sva-dhUryavat ||


"It is difficult to attain brahminhood in this universe,
While sovereignty of any kind may be acquired with relative ease.
It is only through the puissance of a brAhmaNa
That we are yoked to a fine Chariot like well-broken animals."

Sovereignty involves acquisition and management of land, capital,
and people, harnessed to realize the fullest civilizational potential, materially and spiritually. The soft and hard power of a brAhmaNa is of a different class from these three. It is of a different class from even the general class of "people" resources. It cannot be "managed" or "acquired" by sovereign administrators like the other three factors.

It is the "puissance" (tapasya, i.e., power born of Right Penance)
of this class that really harnesses the general class of people to
the Chariot of the Lord. Otherwise they are nothing but beasts of
burden for a material social enterprise (subtle, or sometimes quite
gross).

Related to the distinguishing 4th quality of a real brahmana (attained in addition to the other three), from the Mahabharata again:

naratvaM durlabhaM lokE
vidyA tatra su-durlabhA |
shIlaM ca durlabhaM tatra
vinayas tatra su-durlabhaH ||


"Human birth is rare in this universe,
Attainment of knowledge and wisdom is even harder.
To then build a noble character is even harder,
And harder still is to attain deep and humble supplication after all
that."

IMHO, that's the difference between Vedic philosophy and Breivik ji's philosophy. His culture does not have the delicateness and sophistication to create a truly progressive multicultural order. either it congeals into Nazism, or metls away into a wishy washy leftism.
sanjeevpunj
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 13:10

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by sanjeevpunj »

^^^^The term Breivikism should be up in the wiki anyday soon.
Well it is already there!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Breivikism
Noun
Breivikism (plural Breivikisms)
1) The paranoid delusion that 'Cultural Marxism' has infiltrated society at every level, multiculturalism is inherently evil, and that all Muslims are secretly plotting world domination.
Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3513
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Rony »

'Hindu Kush' indeed means 'Hindu slayer/Killer' as the Persian word 'Kush' translates to killing as in Persian influenced Hindi/Urdu word 'Kuhd-Kushi' (self killing) (I personally prefer to use the Sanskrit word Atma Hatya) . But the original Persian word of 'Hindu Kush' is 'Hindu Koh' . 'Koh' in Persian means Mountain. 'Hindu Koh' translates to 'Hindu Mountain'. Since the word 'Hindu' was not a religious community in anceint times and often used a substitute for 'Indian', 'Hindu Koh' basically means 'Indian Mountains'. During the Middle Ages, as Central Asian Muslim kings transported Indian Slaves through this rugged snow clad terrain resulting in lots of death, it was then that the Original 'Hindu Koh' (Hindu Mountain) lost its meaning and replaced with 'Hindu Kush' (Hindu Killing).

Indians today should discard the term 'Hindu Kush' and start using and propogating the right word which is 'Hindu Koh' and better still discard all this Persian words and start calling by its REAL Sanskrit name - 'Pariyatra/Parijata parvata' since it is famous for Parijata and other assorted flowers.In my opinion it is a self goal for Indians to keep calling that mountain range as 'Hindu Kush'.
sanjeevpunj
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 13:10

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by sanjeevpunj »

^^^Paki Kush! Reverse the trend!
Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3513
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by Rony »

Better still, 'Hindu Parvata' which is the original name.Lets start claiming things which are rightfully ours !
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6589
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by sanjaykumar »

Here are some of the people murdered. The Iraqi woman is more beautiful than any Norwegian I have seen.

Tragic on many levels.

http://news.nationalpost.com/tag/norway-attacks/
sanjeevpunj
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 13:10

Re: "Christian" Fundamentalism in West

Post by sanjeevpunj »

Apparently, Breivik wants to meet Putin someday, look at Putin's reaction :rotfl: Image
Locked