"Christian" Fundamentalism in West

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jul 2011 21:40

sorry, OT again, but no actual historical narrative used "Hindu Koh". It is a modern Brit-left-Thaparite speculation to cover up for "Kush".

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jul 2011 21:46

sanjeevpunj wrote:^^^^The term Breivikism should be up in the wiki anyday soon.
Well it is already there!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Breivikism
Noun
Breivikism (plural Breivikisms)
1) The paranoid delusion that 'Cultural Marxism' has infiltrated society at every level, multiculturalism is inherently evil, and that all Muslims are secretly plotting world domination.

Oh the same would apply - and in fact was even applied - "paranoid delusion" - to Lenin. Churchill would fit the bill perfectly before 1940's - although for him the target ideology/population would be different - Indians/Hindus and Germans/Nazis and Russiana/Communists. Even maybe Digvijay Singh would earn these too!

All dyed in the wool leftists would subscribe to the paranoid delusion that Fascism has infiltrated society at every level, cultural renaissance is inherently evil unless it is Islamic, and that all Hindus and Jews are sercetly plotting world domination.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Jul 2011 22:01

The mountains in that area are called today, e.g., Feroz Koh, Safed Koh, Koh-i-Baba etc. Koh being mountain. One old gazetteer I looked up suggested that Hindu Kush was Hindu Koh.

If you look for "Hindu Koh" in books.google.com, you will find many hits. e.g., Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1853, "The plains of Turkistan rise very gently towards the Bolor and Hindu Koh, the whole western slopes of which are a ... A western continuation of the Hindu Koh, the range of rran, or Khorassan, and the Damani Koh, separates Iran from ..."

Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, 1836, Volume 5, page 474 ("Memoir on a Map of Peshawar") "The mountainous tract to the north of the district boasts the boldest and most romantic scenery. It is the link between the Pirpanjal range and the Hindu-koh".

So Hindu-koh was in use in the 19th century.

Afghanistan Revisited, by Cary Gladstone (2001) says:

"The origin of the term Hindukush (which translates as Hindu Killer) is also a point of contention. Three possibilities have been put forward: that the mountains memorialize the Indian slaves who perished in the mountains while being transported to Central Asian slave markets; that the name is merely a corruption of Hindu Koh, the pre-Islamic name of the mountains that divided Hindu southern Afghanistan from non-Hindu northern Afghanistan; or, that the name is a posited Avestan appellation meaning "water mountains"."

Sir Henry Elliot and John Dowson 1877 "The History of India, as told by its own historians", often cited in the tale of Islamic atrocities, use "Hindu Koh". In later editions of the Britannica (e.g., 1894) we are told that Ibn Battuta (1332) is the first writer to use "Hindu Kush" and gave the explanation as Hindu killers; and that "Hindu Koh" is a modification by Orientalists. (Why Elliot and Dawson would do so, when their purpose was to document Islamic atrocities, is not clear.) We are also told that Babar used "Hindukush".

E.g., Koenraad Elst writes
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/arti ... ocide.html
"Slaves were likely to die of hardship, e.g. the mountain range Hindu Koh, "Indian mountain", was renamed Hindu Kush, "Hindu-killer", when one cold night in the reign of Timur Lenk (1398-99), a hundred thousand Hindu slaves died there while on transport to Central Asia. " -- the problem is that Ibn Battuta had already called it Hindu Killer 60 years earlier.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Jul 2011 22:02

Vedas too were built by humans, hence imperfect. Humans do not have the ability to create perfect ideology or society. Yet we believe such exists.

Highly recommend "The Human Condition" by Hannah Arendt. Some parts are weak but the essential parts are quite fascinating.

Bear with me a little here. In part she tries to addresses the human condition as a rising above the private/labor sphere of eating/sleeping/hunting/sex and into the Public sphere of contemplation. We are the only creatures to do so. The modern condition has changed the Public sphere into a social sphere. As we move into the contemplative/social world we must slowly deny our senses and begin to believe in the abstract. This has given us the huge successes of science and technology. For the private sphere the world is still flat, the Sun still circles the Earth and the Mountains last for ever. This is what our senses tell us everyday. Yet our modern knowledge tells us to believe different every moment of the day though even now a few deny these things. In the private sphere violence is typically the solution to most problems. You don't have food, you hunt or you raid or you chop down a plant to solve your problem. The issue begins when we use the same approach to solve problems in the contemplative/social world.

The concept of equality from this perspective is not one of equal amongst unequal's but one of trying to create a common social world all can share. We are only equal in that all of us strive to create a common world for all. A common world of ideas and communities and still exist is a plural world where we belong to one species yet are isolated into separate unique individuals. The dilemma is serious. It is not an accident that so much of what we think is dense, unintuitive and deeply confusing. Our brain wakes up every morning and confuses us. We straddle two now three worlds simultaneously that can never be bridged. It is quite a bleak profile of modern human existence but it explains much of what we find perplexing. That Nazi soldiers could stand there and shoot women, children and 80 year old grandmas as enemies of the state and that the Taliban can hang an 8 year old boy as an enemy to their cause.

Also that we believe Utopia exists in our contemplative world while our connection to the active world denies us admission.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 27 Jul 2011 22:11

brihaspati wrote:sorry, OT again, but no actual historical narrative used "Hindu Koh". It is a modern Brit-left-Thaparite speculation to cover up for "Kush".

May be your right. But there are other non-Brit-left-Thaparite Scholars as well who agree with the 'Hindu Koh' being the original name which was later twisted to 'Hindu Kush' when the mass killings began.

From Koenraad Elst

In fact, “Mountain of India” translates a similar-sounding expression, Hindu Koh. Hindu is the Persian equivalent of Sindhu, and originally meant “India”, or “Indian”. Koh is the Persian word for “mountain”, as in the name of the famous diamond Koh-i-Nûr, “mountain of light”. It is entirely likely that the name Hindu Kush came about as a sarcastic twist on the older name Hindu Koh, viz. on the occasion of an actual mass-killing.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 27 Jul 2011 22:16

Theo_Fidel wrote:Vedas too were built by humans, hence imperfect.

Theo, not at all.Vedas originated from the Lord himself. They were passed down word by word, verbally, and eventually texted by Rishis.

I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas I am to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas. Chapter 15, Verse 15, Bhagvad Gita

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Jul 2011 22:25

Sanjeev,

Many books say the same. Why privilege one over the other.

Also the Vedas and others are maintained, interpreted and followed by humans. God could say this way is left and we would not be able to agree what left is. We are stuck in the Human condition.

This ways lies madness.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Jul 2011 22:29

It is easy to verify in books.google.com that Ibn Battuta in 1332 narrates the story of Hindu Kush being named so because of Indian slaves dying there.

{At Qundus} We stayed outside this village about forty days to pasture our camels and horses....Another reason for our halt was fear of the snow, for on the road there is a mountain called Hindukush, which means "Slayer of Indians", because the slave boys and girls who are brought from India die there in large numbers as a result of the extreme cold and the quantity of snow.

{Ibn Battuta, Travels in Asia and Africa 1325-54, translated by H.A. R. Gibb, first published 1929}

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 27 Jul 2011 22:37

Theo_Fidel wrote:Sanjeev,

Many books say the same. Why privilege one over the other.

Also the Vedas and others are maintained, interpreted and followed by humans. God could say this way is left and we would not be able to agree what left is. We are stuck in the Human condition.

This ways lies madness.

Vedas are not books. They were 'codified' at some point in time, very recently.
I know from where are you coming from, please no equal equal here. Thanks.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 27 Jul 2011 22:43

A_Gupta wrote:It is easy to verify in books.google.com that Ibn Battuta in 1332 narrates the story of Hindu Kush being named so because of Indian slaves dying there.

If this is directed towards my comments, then i totally agree with that as does Koenraad Elst. But the point i am trying to make is that long before the word 'Hindu Kush' was coined, that mountains were called as 'Hindu Koh' and long before that it used to be called as 'Pariyatra Parvata'.And hence it is a total self golf for us to keep referring that mountains as 'Hindu Kush' instead of using its original names - 'Hindu Koh/Hindu Parvata' or 'Pariyatra Parvata'.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jul 2011 22:47

Rony wrote:
May be your right. But there are other non-Brit-left-Thaparite Scholars as well who agree with the 'Hindu Koh' being the original name which was later twisted to 'Hindu Kush' when the mass killings began.

From Koenraad Elst

In fact, “Mountain of India” translates a similar-sounding expression, Hindu Koh. Hindu is the Persian equivalent of Sindhu, and originally meant “India”, or “Indian”. Koh is the Persian word for “mountain”, as in the name of the famous diamond Koh-i-Nûr, “mountain of light”. It is entirely likely that the name Hindu Kush came about as a sarcastic twist on the older name Hindu Koh, viz. on the occasion of an actual mass-killing.

Well even he is "speculating" - "entirely likely...". The problem is that from the earliest Arab geographers and persian chronicles - as and when the name appears - it is "Hindu Kush" and never Hindu Koh in the early days. If the name was common, the Persian records would at least use it in the earlier days. This usage comes up with the Europeans.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jul 2011 22:47

SRoy wrote:
Vedas are not books. They were 'codified' at some point in time, very recently.
I know from where are you coming from, please no equal equal here. Thanks.

Also vedas are accumulation of knowledge and it is an universe and full system for humanity. This kind of thing has never been done before by any other civilization and humans have only codified it.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 27 Jul 2011 22:54

Theo_Fidel wrote:Sanjeev,
Many books say the same. Why privilege one over the other.
Also the Vedas and others are maintained, interpreted and followed by humans. God could say this way is left and we would not be able to agree what left is. We are stuck in the Human condition.
This ways lies madness.

But which book says that Vedas are given out by man, I have not seen. The commentation on the Vedanta-sutra by Vyasadeva in the Srimad-Bhagavatam gives the real understanding of Vedanta-sutra. The Supreme Lord is so full that for the deliverance of the conditioned soul He is the supplier and digester of foodstuff, the witness of his activity, the giver of knowledge in the form of Vedas and as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, the teacher of the Bhagavad-gita. He is worshipable by the conditioned soul. Thus God is all-good; God is all-merciful.
The madness of the world disappears when one focusses on the vedas, at least that is my experience, honestly.

On another note,You might have heard of Essenes? These are the extremely orthodox Jews, who follow rituals which are almost similar to what the Vedas taught.You can find info about Essenes here http://www.essenespirit.com/jesus.html

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jul 2011 22:56

Theo_Fidel wrote:Vedas too were built by humans, hence imperfect. Humans do not have the ability to create perfect ideology or society. Yet we believe such exists.

Humans are imperfect. God and the message of the god is above humans.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 27 Jul 2011 22:57

Theo_Fidel wrote:Vedas too were built by humans, hence imperfect. Humans do not have the ability to create perfect ideology or society. Yet we believe such exists.

Theo ji, I see your point. "Perfection" is conceptualized by an immature mind as some sort of static "state" of existence, and thereafter the mind is always struggling to attain or hold onto a particular state of existence. Then, every law and ideology it generates is merely a set of computations based on such a definition of "success" and "perfection"; the culture it generates is merely a dramatization of that struggle to hold or reach that state.

But a more mature and clear mind can conceptualize "perfection" to include all states of being comprehensively. It has the capacity to accommodate and dovetail all phases of human existence, and because of this comfort and grace, there are no neurotic snags or extraneous lash-ups. This is what is meant by the Vedic idea of varnashrama dharma. All sensory, mental and intellectual propensities are harmonized along a spectrum scale of consciousness, and they telescope one within the other.

The beginning of that expansive maturity is a particular cognition of the Fourth Factor. With that Knowledge, everything else can align. Knowledge --> Skills --> Behaviors --> Attitudes. With cognition and love, different types of people take up positions along this developmental scale and hold and shape their positions in a society recursively. "Veda" refers to that "Knowledge", not a derivative codex of any kind.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jul 2011 23:02

But are we not moving away from a study of Breivikism+ Christianity+"fundamentalism"?

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 27 Jul 2011 23:04

^^ B ji, I think this small digressoin helped to give perspective and preempt narrow positions or mis-identifications here.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 27 Jul 2011 23:09

brihaspati wrote:Well even he is "speculating" - "entirely likely...". The problem is that from the earliest Arab geographers and persian chronicles - as and when the name appears - it is "Hindu Kush" and never Hindu Koh in the early days. If the name was common, the Persian records would at least use it in the earlier days. This usage comes up with the Europeans.

Of course Koenraad Elst is speculating.But his speculation makes sense to me. If we go by the understanding that from the time of the earliest Arab geographers and persian chronicles, that 'Hindu Kush' is a standalone phrase and is not derived from 'Hindu Koh', then that opens up interesting possibilities.

It is inconceivable that the Persians named those Mountains only around early middle ages.Mostly probably, the Persians had a name for those Mountains even in Pre-Islamic times.My guess is that name was 'Hindu Kok'(Hindu Mountains). But if we discard that and go by the understanding that 'Hindu Kush'(Hindu Killer) is the original name, then that begs the question what was the Persian name for those Mountains in Pre-Middle Ages and if the Pre-Middle Ages Persian name is also 'Hindu Kush' , then that in turn begs the question whether Hindu/Indian mass slave enslavements/Killings were happening even in Pre-Islamic times at the hands of the Central Asians ?

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 27 Jul 2011 23:10

Norway's Anders Breivik is not a Christian fundamentalist
http://www.energypublisher.com/article.asp?id=57706

United Daily News -- Waning multiculturalism gives rise to extremism
http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_ ... &Type=aOPN

After modernity Many in the west do not wish to go to church as they believed in the complete ability of human being to change this world. Cultural liberalism filled the gap as if they are very much standing for the cause of the rights of the people. Yes it stood for the causes of ordinary labourers and others and brought transformation within the societies through labour movements and social securities and so on. But it went to the extent of eradicating local values and faiths. At one point such a liberal approach along with liberal economy ridiculed family values, religious faiths and all those social institutions. Mass media played a major role in such activities by making negative news about all these institutions as comercial value and popular public opinion was shaped around this. Churches in the West have lost their plots and so the people in general lost their piety. Islam with its enthusiasm tried to fill in the gap but it does not fill the gap by conversion rather fill the gap by migration. But also many Muslims with the support from their Arabian counterparts want to insult the local religion and values system. They build huge mosques just before the churches and usually make huge parades during the church services. This is understandable as a minority complexity. But many within the church who themselves are a minority within the non-believing Western Majority began to be scared of the Muslims or atleast build a strong ignorant view towards Islam. After the generation X and Generation Y many options are available for the Westerners spiritualities and other meanings to search for with temporal relationships and valueless or with less committments and with short term jobs and so on, people believe within groups anything that a particular leader or ideologist provides. In the West many are struggling to understand and talk about the sex related issues. Critical liberalism has imposed certain values in the society which finds no other option but to keep oneself from engaging with the community at all. For some it is extremely difficult It is natural to see extreme answers such as going back to an institutional religion such as Roman CAtholic religion or authoritarian community as a solution to this.

People from different cultural groups can live together only if there is a mutual respect for each other's faith and values systems. When people wanted to retain their faith and values which are not against other religious faiths and values should be allowed to be taught in schools along with other faiths and values. To avoid such attacks in future the best way is to keep an eye on those who form peer groups of extreme ideologies and in their content they began to identify others as enemies and threats (hatred) and express a wish to translate this into action.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Jul 2011 23:15

Carl,

Exactly.

Breivik believes a mature clear mind (such as his) can conceive of a static perfect pure state. Everone in sync.

The problem always is that final interpretation is up to the plurality of unique individuals. He wrote a 1500 page treatise to clarify himself and no two people here can understand what he says the same way. What hope then for us to understand the mind of god.

The Vedas are a codified guidance for the human mind. All of us choose where on that spectrum we choose to stand.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 27 Jul 2011 23:19

Theo_Fidel wrote:Carl,

Exactly.

Breivik believes a mature clear mind (such as his) can conceive of a static perfect pure state. Everone in sync.

Theo, Breivik isn't in synch at all. The Vedic view is that reality and existence - rtam - has a dynamic aspect like the seasons, not static. And the worst word that someone like Madhvacharya uses for an ignorant is nir-rti.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 27 Jul 2011 23:19

as for the Vedas, it is up to each individual how they interpret it. for some, it is an instrument of "Aryan Imperialism," and for others it is the "divine word" which came from Hiranya Garbham. whatever one thinks of it, let them think it. if one tries to identify the Vedas with some mythical delusional nonsense like "Aryan Invasion," then their theory must be questioned on the grounds of logic and rationality. if not, then let everybody have their personal opinion of the "timeline" of the Vedas.

I am of the opinion that the Vedas represent the unbroken line of history of Jambudvipa or Bharat-varsha. such a project as the Vedas was never undertaken by any other civilization. and that is Satyam, Satyam, Punah Satyam.

all other thoughts on the Vedas are based on one's experiences, but the single truth is that it is a Project like no other.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jul 2011 23:31

Rony wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Well even he is "speculating" - "entirely likely...". The problem is that from the earliest Arab geographers and persian chronicles - as and when the name appears - it is "Hindu Kush" and never Hindu Koh in the early days. If the name was common, the Persian records would at least use it in the earlier days. This usage comes up with the Europeans.
Of course Koenraad Elst is speculating.But his speculation makes sense to me. If we go by the understanding that from the time of the earliest Arab geographers and persian chronicles, that 'Hindu Kush' is a standalone phrase and is not derived from 'Hindu Koh', then that opens up interesting possibilities.

It is inconceivable that the Persians named those Mountains only around early middle ages.Mostly probably, the Persians had a name for those Mountains even in Pre-Islamic times.My guess is that name was 'Hindu Kok'(Hindu Mountains). But if we discard that and go by the understanding that 'Hindu Kush'(Hindu Killer) is the original name, then that begs the question what was the Persian name for those Mountains in Pre-Middle Ages and if the Pre-Middle Ages Persian name is also 'Hindu Kush' , then that in turn begs the question whether Hindu/Indian mass slave enslavements/Killings were happening even in Pre-Islamic times at the hands of the Central Asians ?

Usually people adopted the names of what local people already called it - of course there are plenty of exceptions. But this renaming as an act of imperialistic possession appears to have taken off significantly only with the Arabs. Remember that the Persians actually were present in the Sindh area long before the Islamics - but the particular dynasty which claimed parts of Sindh areas as their 22nd satrapy - was known for its policy of respecting local customs and names. What little we get from them does not mention the mountains in specific way. Greeks do not use the name - even if they tried their best to adopt persian terms while there. The Parthian period also does not use the term. That leads us directly to the Islamic-Arab-Persian stretch. Anyway - this belongs to the GDF history thread perhaps. The very us eof the whole exepression from Islamic side was "Kush" and it appears much later in Arab/Persian geography - while there is no early known instance of "Koh" for Hindu in the Persian chronicles.

This should also be interesting - yes - but reflecting the fact that Persia was not handed over to Islamism entirely on a platter, and until the late 900's to 1000 Islam was still contested. Come on they had place names like Nishapur [still exists] and Gundishapur - a well known then centre of "But-prasts" [Buddhist centre of learning and monks/viharas] in Persia - so why would they even need to give a Persian name to something they saw as Indian domain. Or reverse - if it was traditionally already long under Persian sovereignty why would they need to concede a "Hindu" to it? The very word "Hindu" makes any early pre-Islamic and even Persian coinage unlikely - they used "Hind" if at all, its the Arab islamics who start to use it to denote people and religion. The "u" at the end is the key. You will not find it in the old Persian usage.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Jul 2011 23:33

brihaspati wrote:Well even he is "speculating" - "entirely likely...". The problem is that from the earliest Arab geographers and persian chronicles - as and when the name appears - it is "Hindu Kush" and never Hindu Koh in the early days. If the name was common, the Persian records would at least use it in the earlier days. This usage comes up with the Europeans.

Encyclopedia Britannica 1894 says:

WE have said that Hindu Kush is the Caucasus of Alexander's historians. It is also included in the Paropamisus, though the latter term embraces more, Caucasus being apparently used only when the alpine barrier is in question. Whether the name was given in mere vanity to the barrier which Alexander passed (as Arrian and others repeatedly allege), or was founded also on some verbal confusion, we cannot say. It was no doubt regarded (and perhaps not altogether untruly) as a part of a great alpine zone believed to traverse Asia from west to east, whether called Taurus, Caucasus, or Imaus. Arrian himself applies Caucasus distinctly to the Himalaya also.......The ancient Zend name is, according to Rawlinson, Paresina, the essential part of Paropamisus; this accounts for the great Asiatic Parnassus of Aristotle, and the Pho-lo-sin-a of Hwen Tsang.

The name Hindu Kush does not appear so far as we can ascertain, in any of the earlier Arab geographers. But it is used by Ibn Batuta, who crossed (c. 1332) from Andarab, and he haves the explanation of the name, which, however doubtful, is still popular, as (Pers.) Hindu-Killer, "because of the number of Indian slaves who perished in passing" its snows. Baber always calls the range Hindu Kush, and the way in which he speaks of it shows clearly that it was a range that was meant, not as a solitary pass or peak (according to modern local use, as alleged by Elphinstone and Burnes). Probably, however, the title was confined to the section from Khawak to Koh-i-Baba (see Baber, pp. 136, 139). The name has by some later Oriental writers been modified into Hindu Koh (mountain) but this is factitious, and throws not more light on the origin of the title. The name seems to have become known to European geographers by the Oriental translations of the two Petis de la Croix, and was taken up by Delisle and D'Anville. Rennell and Elphinstone familiarized it, and Wilford wilfordized about it. Burnes first crossed the range (1832)."

I see a Ramananda Chatterjee, 1934 claming that the mountain range is "Hind Koh" - black mountain. This would be in line with the other ranges being "Safed Koh" (white mountain), "Feroz Koh" (equivalent to Nilagiri?).

PS: Petis de La Croix (died 1713) wrote a translation of Zafarnama - life of Timur - in French; published in 1722, translated into English the next year by J. Darby. In those days spellings were somewhat different. "Timur decamp'd at the fame time, and march'd towards Cabul: he took the road to Tulle, afcended the mountain of Hendou-Kech, pafs'd by Pendgehir, commonaly call'd Pendgir, and went to encamp in a meadow of the country of Baran, about five leagues from Cabul."

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Jul 2011 23:40

For those who believe certainty exists.

The word of God, written down by man, is corrupted the moment it enters his mind.

For those sure of their mind try this experiment on counting.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jul 2011 23:48

I actually applaud the attempt to analyze Breivik through the Vedic prism. So far the demand was that all analysis should happen using the Marxian prism of pseudo-economic-drive-onlee. But applying any tool to a task is also a dynamic process isnt it? there is a long confusion that sees the "text" of vedas as == "vedas". So hopefully - the text is not going to be applied as the prism!

Whatever be the form in which Veda prism is applied, Vreivik does not go into the direction that either the text or what it represents [rather than an actual embodiment] would project. Vreiviks concerns are immediate -practical -social, cultural and state - in nature. These are only indirectly a concern in the Vedas.Even social hierarchies are not that much of concern in the Vedas - sorry to point that out. So Vedas would be useless as a framework of analysis for the thee main points of concern of Vreivik.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 27 Jul 2011 23:53

brihaspati wrote:Vreiviks concerns are immediate -practical -social, cultural and state - in nature. These are only indirectly a concern in the Vedas.Even social hierarchies are not that much of concern in the Vedas - sorry to point that out.

How do you say that? Aren't all purusharthas dealt with even in codified texts called "Veda"? Doesn't the Purusha-sukta occur in this text? Even apart from text, talking of Veda in abstract terms of cognition and illumination -- can the psycho-social aspect of one's being be excluded from it?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jul 2011 23:55

Once upon a time there was a boy, who was extremely smart. But he was lazy when it comes to studies. So he came up with an idea for his language exam. He studied the 'cow' story and planned to link any question in the exam to the 'cow' so he can write his story.

Fast forward 28.183 years to July'2011

A Christian fundamentalist called Anders Breivik went on a rampage killing 70+ people in a labor-party political camp; to showcase the ill-effects of Marxist-liberalism on European society, especially from Islamic immigrants who have a tendency to show their ideological-colors once they cross certain % of the population.

So our boy starts answering this question.

"When Anders went to kill the people, he stepped on cow-dung. Cow!!!!

Cow has four legs. It has one tail, two ears. The cow also has two eyes. It eats grass and gives milk...."

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Jul 2011 00:51

Carl wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Vreiviks concerns are immediate -practical -social, cultural and state - in nature. These are only indirectly a concern in the Vedas.Even social hierarchies are not that much of concern in the Vedas - sorry to point that out.
How do you say that? Aren't all purusharthas dealt with even in codified texts called "Veda"? Doesn't the Purusha-sukta occur in this text? Even apart from text, talking of Veda in abstract terms of cognition and illumination -- can the psycho-social aspect of one's being be excluded from it?

Vreiviks concern as quoted here is about social hierarchies and desirable or undesirable ideologies, and the nature of the state. The RigVeda does not deal with state directly, nor is there any conclusive evidence about socially ordered repressive heirarchies - no permanent [until utopia] "subordination of minorities to majorities" - the chief concern in Marxians and lefties. Genocide of undesirable ideologies - not clear either. One can try and find it in the later texts - but even there one has to be selective in true Thaparite academic integrity.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 28 Jul 2011 00:57

European politicians speaking out in defence of the ideas of Norway killer Breivik

An Italian MEP has described the ideas of Norway's self-confessed mass killer, Anders Behring Breivik, as "good" and in some cases "excellent".

Mario Borghezio, who belongs to the Northern League party, condemned Mr Breivik's violence, but backed his stance against Islam.

The Northern League is a partner in PM Silvio Berlusconi's government.

[...]

"Some of the ideas he expressed are good, barring the violence. Some of them are great," Mario Borghezio told Il Sole-24 Ore radio station.

He agreed with Mr Breivik's "opposition to Islam and his explicit accusation that Europe has surrendered before putting up a fight against its Islamicisation".

[...]

The Northern League is an avowedly anti-immigration, regionalist Italian political party, key to the governing coalition, and known for its anti-Islamic rhetoric.

[...]

...Ms Sinclaire resigned last year from the European Parliament umbrella group, Europe of Freedom & Democracy (EFD), which included her UK Independence Party, as well as Italy's Northern League. She cited the racism of Northern League members in making her decision.

[...]

But Mr Borghezio is not the only right-wing politician to express sympathy with the actions of Anders Behring Breivik.

A member of France's far-right National Front party has been suspended after writing a defence of the Norwegian attacker on his blog.

Jacques Coutela described Mr Breivik as "the main defender of the West", comparing him to Charles Martel, a seventh century leader who halted Islamic expansion in western Europe.

"The reason for the Norway terror attacks: fighting the Muslim invasion, that's what people don't want you to know", read the post.

[...]

Meanwhile, the leader of the English Defence League (EDL), Stephen Lennon, said the mass killing in Norway was a wake-up call.

"What happened in Oslo shows how desperate some people are becoming in Europe," said Mr Lennon, who was convicted earlier this week of leading a brawl involving 100 football fans.

"It's a ticking time bomb. If they don't give that frustration and anger a platform as such and a voice - and a way of getting emotion out in a democratic way - it will create monsters like this lunatic."

The EDL is also known for its strong stance against immigration.

Mr Breivik has posted admiring comments online about the EDL.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 28 Jul 2011 02:44

Andrew Sullivan
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com ... osure.html
"Epistemic closure"

He cites this:
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2011/07 ... -the-west/

which argues, among other things:

What I do think is that Breivik has given us all something to think about and worry about. I think those who have stepped out into public to warn about Islamism and global Jihad, despite the near-certainty that they will be smeared as racist Islamophobes, need to think about our rhetoric.

and

You cannot make peace with apocalyptic enemies. But you can defeat them without descending to their level. You will certainly not defeat them with cowardice masquerading as generosity of soul.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 28 Jul 2011 02:54

Also worth noting
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... lence.html

...I use the term extremist or extremist movement for any identity based group (religious, kinship and/or linguistic, political/ideological, social, economic, nationalist, etc) that is both espousing a set of beliefs that are towards the fringes of the larger societies, groups, movements, and/or subcultures that they are part of and whose beliefs are either directly used to justify violence by those that are objectively identified with such a group or subjectively identify with the beliefs of the group even if they have never formally joined anything. In the former case we are talking about activity by known members of a group like the IRA or the UFF in Northern Ireland. In the latter we are looking at activity by Timothy McVeigh (please remember that McVeigh never formally belonged to any white supremacist, militia, patriot, and/or Christian Identity group, which is why he was not trackable by those who monitor those networks). In all these examples we are dealing with people who are white and Christian (members of the IRA being Catholic, the UFF being Protestant, and McVeigh seemed to be loosely involved with Christian Identity towards the end with his connections to Elohim City and his use of Willian Pierce/Ian MacDonald's "The Turner Diaries" as the blueprint for his attack). I could just have as easily used Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and other examples but these will do as no society, community, group, or religion is immune to extremism. So J, I'm not using the term willy nilly, nor am I just bandying it about with impunity. Contrary to those whose own works were cited as justification by the Norway shooter/bomber, I recognize that words have not only meaning, but consequences and we should strive to be as precise as possible so as not to provide anyone with a loaded gun; even if it is just a conceptual one.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 28 Jul 2011 03:49

Muslims are kidding themselves if they think Europeans won't turn on them.

The presence of aggressive America with its border fence and shoot orders made them moderate themselves to be different. But that only goes so far. If you read Europeans during the Jewish Holocaust, they knew the evil they were committing, they did it any way.

During the Rennaissance parts of Europe were far more Secular than it is today. There were hundreds of different Religious/Christian groups and faith all over. Almost all have been wiped out. Many are now represented only in America.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 28 Jul 2011 04:00

I made a comment a long time ago, it will be only a matter of time before the gas ovens are turned on across Europe.

I do expect better of Britain. Unfortunate that it is losing even its undistinguished place in the economic hierarchy of Europe.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Jul 2011 04:05

Nostradamus must be vindicated in this centurty. As per his prediction, Man (mohan) is Delhi is wearing turban at this juncture of Mlechhas Hannaye Nammah!!

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 28 Jul 2011 04:34

Source:http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/ ... 5420110727

Armed ethnic Serbs, who attacked and burned down a border post, fired at NATO peacekeeping forces in Kosovo on Wednesday in the ethnic-Serb dominated northern part of the country.
"The situation deteriorated at the customs post Jarinje and it was confirmed that an act of arson was committed against that position... There have also been confirmed reports of shots fired at KFOR personnel in the vicinity," NATO peacekeeping mission in Kosovo (KFOR) said in a statement.The NATO statement did not say whether anyone was injured in the attack or whether KFOR troops returned fire, but said reinforcements had been sent to the border.A Serb witness on the scene saw dozens of masked men, armed with crowbars, clubs, axes, Molotov cocktails and handheld flares, burn down the border crossing post.Customs and police officers fled to the nearby KFOR outpost after their border post was set alight and were chased by the armed Serbs.

This is quite likely the first awakening caused by the Breivik incident.Ethnic Serbs will be finding plenty of support after reading the manual.Moreover their leaders are in prison,and the Politically Correct authorities in Europe think they have ended the rising wave of fundamentalism,but instead,as is the nature of waves,there is a trough and a peak.So the trough has been reached and the wave rises again.We can see if the wave rises higher this time or not.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 28 Jul 2011 04:45

Aditya_V wrote:
shiv wrote:Just wondering if Breivik might be the single most intelligent anti-Osama that the western world has produced - especially when you compare him with the likes of plodders like Dubya under whose watch 9-11 occurred.

Osama was brainy enough to strike a sudden hard blow that sent a message that echoed well with the religion of war in the name of peace. The message went far beyond Osama because of his unique method of sending it.

Breivik has done something similar. In fact I am amazed at the guy's guile. There seems nothing stupid about him. He has ensured that his message will be read by the maximum number of people in the world. Nothing will stop that - no matter what happens to him. No sane human will praise or love Breivik for what he did - but like the pain of countless genocides and mass murders in the past - the pain will pass. The message will stay.

In 10 years from now if someone says "I support Osama's cause" someone else can say "And I support Breivik's cause"

Both may be mass murderers - but that is a side issue - it is like the bell carried by a town crier to attract attention.
And he knew that he can just surrender in his country, take 15 years in Prison, come out on Parole and enjoy his life from the late 40's aand have good food, entertainment at prison as well.

Am in Norway and have followed the debate. For 4 days all TV programmes were cancelled and only news covrage was shown. At the discussion of penalty, the first question was how long can we keep this dude jailed? maximum in Norway is 21 years (but each year is only 9 months), hence 15 years is the max. BUT there is a nice little law that says you can keep a person in custody for 5 years at a time, if the person poses a danger to the society. The other solution is that he is going to be declared insane and kept in an asylum for the rest of his life.
This dude is never going to see freedom.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 28 Jul 2011 04:56

One thing is certain, thousands if not tens of thousands are going to read his manifest, which is very intelligently written. But his "masterstroke" is to attack the state and local people rather then the ethnic minorities. He know all to well, that any attack on minority would reduce him to a simple hatecriminal. The majority would not have taken them seriously, as they were not the ones targeted. The Left is going to blame the right. The right is going to fire back. The ideological divide may become very hardned and hatefull. Only future will tell.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 28 Jul 2011 04:58

Source:http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... e63114.771

Indian right-wing Hindus reject Norway killer's praise(AFP) – 11 hours ago
NEW DELHI — India's right-wing Hindu groups on Wednesday rejected lavish praise heaped on them by Norwegian gunman Anders Behring Breivik in his online manifesto.
Breivik, who killed 76 people in twin attacks last week in Norway and was described by police as a Christian fundamentalist, hailed India's Hindu nationalist movement as a key ally in a global struggle to contain the spread of Islam.But Breivik's ringing endorsement and his call for support from hardline Hindu groups angered nationalist Hindu organisations such as the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council).
"Breivik's act of killing innocents is reprehensible in the strongest possible words. The attempts to link it to the Hindutva movement are also equally reprehensible," said RSS spokesman Ram Madhav.
"Violence has never been our ally and it will never be. Breivik's gory act should be condemned by everybody."Breivik, who called himself anti-Muslim, expressed his support for Hindutva -- a comprehensive umbrella term that encompasses the Hindu nationalist movement in India.The movement regards Islam as a foreign element and aims to unite Hindu society.
Breivik endorsed the views of right-wing Hindu groups and criticised the Indian government for "appeasing Muslims".Senior leaders of the VHP also distanced themselves from Breivik.
"Linking European right-wing thinking with the most ancient Hindu cultural ideology is absurd," Praveen Togadia, VHP international secretary general, told AFP.
The right-wing Hindu organisations said they have had no contact or correspondence with the Norwegian extremist.

Expected reaction in India.Senior VHP and BJP leaders distanced themselves from Breivik.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Jul 2011 06:18

Acharya wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:Vedas too were built by humans, hence imperfect. Humans do not have the ability to create perfect ideology or society. Yet we believe such exists.
Humans are imperfect. God and the message of the god is above humans.

So if I don't believe in the existence of God I can express genuine doubts about the Vedas which require me to believe in God.

No sir. No. The vedas are a human expression of the existing truths of the universe, truths that some people may choose to call by the name "God". As such the knowledge of the Vedas remains unchanged and unchangeable even if it were expressed in another language such as Urdu or Norwegian to make other humans understand. Among Hindus knowledge itself is God.

Saying that the Vedas were handed down by some unseen God is making Vedas samesame as Bible-Quran - which it never was and never will be.