Indian Military Aviation

koti · Post by **koti** » 28 Jul 2011 13:26

shiv wrote:
Viv S wrote: Its not all that much. Rs 100 crore is a little over $20 million.
The value of 100 crores in India is more than the value of $20 million in the US. More people can be employed for a longer period of time in India for the same money.

What we as an economy are striving to achieve is to get the value of 20 million in India to be as close to the same 20 million in US.
I believe this non returning capital cost is absolutely necessary to continue our surge without compromising on our national and economic interests.

It is time we start to see these costs as investments rather then expenditure.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Jul 2011 16:03

koti wrote:
shiv wrote:
The value of 100 crores in India is more than the value of $20 million in the US. More people can be employed for a longer period of time in India for the same money.
What we as an economy are striving to achieve is to get the value of 20 million in India to be as close to the same 20 million in US.
I believe this non returning capital cost is absolutely necessary to continue our surge without compromising on our national and economic interests.

It is time we start to see these costs as investments rather then expenditure.

The only point is that the "we" who make that value judgement are the air force, not any one of us. The air force has made the value judgement that once in five years is what they find optimum. Any difference of opinion we may have with the air force on the issue about the inability or unwillingness to learn from the great Khan's Lal Jhanda is a case of air marshal vs armchair marshal.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Jul 2011 01:42

$20M is 10 jammers, or 20 BVR missiles (Price per Mica @$1 Mn each) or ~15 Brahmos @$1.2 Mn each (price for Indonesian Yakhont) or 40 LGBs @500K each (~300 Paveways @161 Mn for Pak).

$20 Mn is not peanuts, not in the Indian context.

Shiv, is right.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 29 Jul 2011 02:16

IAF to match top guns in Neveda
Times of India

"We will participate in Red Flag in 2013. Since such exercises are very expensive, we have decided to undertake them only once in five years", says IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik. The only time IAF has participated in Red Flag was in 2008, with eight frontline Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, two IL-78 mid-air refuellers, an IL-76 heavy-lift aircraft, 91 officers and 156 other ranks. The bill for the complex aerial combat manoeuvres, touted to be the closest one can get to real war, had come to over Rs 100 crore three years ago.

"The Americans were surprised by our pilots, who flew as many as 356 sorties during Red Flag, and were full of praise for them. The exercise established IAF's capability to project its air power by deploying a trans-continental task force and sustaining prolonged operations there," said another officer. "The US had wanted Indian participation in Red Flag, which trains pilots 'to survive in war and win' in an advanced network-centric environment, to become a regular feature. We, however, have financial constraints," he added.

But the fact remains that the stunning flurry of Indo-US military exercises, with well over 60 such joint war games being held over the last decade to build "interoperability", has been the most visible symbol of the upward trajectory in strategic ties between the two countries.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 29 Jul 2011 02:17

shuklaji, this news has already been posted and discussed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Jul 2011 03:48

Austin wrote:Every body and their aunty knows that nuclear retaliation will result in total annihilation and serves only deterrent value , both countries are aware of each other nuclear capability,potential and as such need no demonstration , Chest thumping and rhetoric by military wala will not help either.

They should let some sane political boss speak on such issue atleast with India that is possible and I am certain there are few sane people on the other side even though they are khaki fellas and understand what Nuclear weapons means and tone down decibels.

Austin, whats with this bizarre response man, what sane guy exists on their side and what sane political boss in the current weird setup can speak on our side? Here we have an Indian military guy supporting deterrence and you object? The opponent we face is a fanatic,he opposes any subtle speak, you need direct responses, irrespective of who delvers the message.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 29 Jul 2011 07:44

Singha wrote:imo every alternate year would have been ideal balance to keep track of whats cooking in the big tent.

Red Flag is also a political tool.. I dont think there are quantum leaps in terms of air war strategies every alternate year... unless you want to send fresh batch of pilots every alternate year..!! which also does not make sense .. in a way.. 4-5 years is a resonable investment..... the hopping across the pond is less of strategic value then actual close quarter fights and supports...
our adversaries are landlocked with us...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jul 2011 11:31

Karan M wrote:Austin, whats with this bizarre response man, what sane guy exists on their side and what sane political boss in the current weird setup can speak on our side? Here we have an Indian military guy supporting deterrence and you object? The opponent we face is a fanatic,he opposes any subtle speak, you need direct responses, irrespective of who delvers the message.

Its better to leave nuclear matter to higher up in political bosses in MOD or PM himself .

And if you think Nuclear weapons in PA is handled by fanatic or cowboys then you are mistaken , there are responsible people out there who takes cares of their weapons much like we have responsible people taking care of ours and nuclear weapons is a tool of deterrent and not fighting wars.

arya · Post by **arya** » 29 Jul 2011 14:15

IAF Signs $2.4-billion Mirage 2000 Upgrade Contract
Jingo Khush Hua

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ia ... igned.html

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Jul 2011 14:50

^^^

At lettle more addition to the published price the entire Miraj fleet can be replaced by the Tejas. Which in turn will generate more jobs for the suppliers in India. Give a plane that will serve longer and can be upgraded by the local industry.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Jul 2011 14:59

Dassault and Thales contract to upgrade Indian Air Force's Mirage 2000 fleet

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 29 Jul 2011 21:19

koti wrote:What we as an economy are striving to achieve is to get the value of 20 million in India to be as close to the same 20 million in US.
I believe this non returning capital cost is absolutely necessary to continue our surge without compromising on our national and economic interests.
It is time we start to see these costs as investments rather then expenditure.

My take on this is completely different, IAf does not want to expose itself too much. hence this reduction in exercises. RedFlag would be once a year, we do other exercise with other countries... like COPE with US, Indradanush with UK, misc exercises with SG, Ru etc. One exercise a year would be ideal (with different forces).

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 29 Jul 2011 21:47

arya wrote:IAF Signs $2.4-billion Mirage 2000 Upgrade Contract
Jingo Khush Hua
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ia ... igned.html

Great news, rather belated... only news which can better this is the MMRCA announcement. Still better would be induction of couple of SQ of Tejas with Kaveri engine!!!

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 30 Jul 2011 01:08

Shrinivasanullah,
I am not aware of any exercises with RuAF in recent times. Have read about some exercises with Singapore air force. We also exercised with Royal Omani Air Force last year.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jul 2011 02:03

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:Austin, whats with this bizarre response man, what sane guy exists on their side and what sane political boss in the current weird setup can speak on our side? Here we have an Indian military guy supporting deterrence and you object? The opponent we face is a fanatic,he opposes any subtle speak, you need direct responses, irrespective of who delvers the message.
Its better to leave nuclear matter to higher up in political bosses in MOD or PM himself .

And if you think Nuclear weapons in PA is handled by fanatic or cowboys then you are mistaken , there are responsible people out there who takes cares of their weapons much like we have responsible people taking care of ours and nuclear weapons is a tool of deterrent and not fighting wars.

really ? pakistan's det is handled by army generals like kayani through chief of SPD (strategic plans div)
I have read interviews of SPD chiefs including lt gen khalid kidwai and they come across as rabid as any jehadi maulavi. the guy was boasting that he wanted to use those buttons one day ! I don't know where you get this idea of sane operators handling nukes in pakistan, never heard of such a thing.
as for ACM Naik, he merely expressed what is already there in our nuclear doctrine, that too in reply to a question. what is the problem with that ?

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 30 Jul 2011 02:27

he merely expressed what is already there in our nuclear doctrine, that too in reply to a question. what is the problem with that ?

too much NDTV......

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Jul 2011 03:42

This report where Dassault blames the strong Euro exchange rate versus the USD for the lack of UAE Rafale sales also explains why the Mirage-2000-9 upgrade is proving to be so costly- just based on the exchange rate the deal ends up being 40% more costly than the same upgrade had it been in USD..but since Dassault's entire supply chain is French based (which most of the BRFites have been calling a distinct advantage when it came to the MRCA deal), it is based on the Euro and not the USD..which is why it's 40% more costly for the same spec.

We better get used to this- Typhoon or Rafale, either way the exchange rates are going to cause big sticker shocks for most BRFites.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Jul 2011 09:20

Rahul M wrote:I have read interviews of SPD chiefs including lt gen khalid kidwai and they come across as rabid as any jehadi maulavi. the guy was boasting that he wanted to use those buttons one day !

Can you post the interview ?

If Kidwai indeed said that then that makes him equally irresponsible as ACM Naik

as for ACM Naik, he merely expressed what is already there in our nuclear doctrine, that too in reply to a question. what is the problem with that ?

Me think ACM Naik simply blabbered it out since it was his last 3-4 days of his career in IAF and he had nothing much to loose , what it did was it put the MEA and MOD in spot and if media news are to be believed they are not happy about it and rightly so , such statements have long term implications way beyond Naik tenure and the MOD/MEA has to grapple with it and it does not change any thing on the ground , in a nuclear war neither country would win and its a loose loose game.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Jul 2011 09:44

Austin wrote: Me think ACM Naik simply blabbered it out since it was his last 3-4 days of his career in IAF and he had nothing much to loose , what it did was it put the MEA and MOD in spot and if media news are to be believed they are not happy about it and rightly so , such statements have long term implications way beyond Naik tenure and the MOD/MEA has to grapple with it and it does not change any thing on the ground , in a nuclear war neither country would win and its a loose loose game.

I think you are wrong. This doublespeak is done deliberately. People do not erach the level of ACM and live in Delhi rubbing shoulders with mantris just to become loose cannons. If you meet a couple of retired chiefs over a drink - you will realize that they are clued in old bandicoots.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Jul 2011 10:11

shiv wrote:I think you are wrong. This doublespeak is done deliberately. People do not erach the level of ACM and live in Delhi rubbing shoulders with mantris just to become loose cannons. If you meet a couple of retired chiefs over a drink - you will realize that they are clued in old bandicoots.

Shiv , its just good old turf war

manum · Post by **manum** » 30 Jul 2011 10:19

Austin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:I have read interviews of SPD chiefs including lt gen khalid kidwai and they come across as rabid as any jehadi maulavi. the guy was boasting that he wanted to use those buttons one day !
Can you post the interview ?

If Kidwai indeed said that then that makes him equally irresponsible as ACM Naik.
.

Anyways ACM Naik is not as irresponsible as Pakistani, if India has no first use doctrine, and if we use it then it means we have already been targeted. We have a traditional feel of messiness Pakistani's can get into, they need to be warned and reminded again and again.

you'll find it a good read, I guess... http://www.pugwash.org/september11/pakistan-nuclear.htm

Nothing new, but its concise and derived from horse mouth itself, may be its the same source of Interview Rahul talked about...its between kidwai & others with Italian news agency Landau Network.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Jul 2011 10:59

shiv wrote:I think you are wrong. This doublespeak is done deliberately.

Correct. It is good to have the out going chief saying such things. Serving ones saying this would amout to threat. This was deliberate.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 30 Jul 2011 11:27

Austin wrote: Me think ACM Naik simply blabbered it out since it was his last 3-4 days of his career in IAF and he had nothing much to loose , what it did was it put the MEA and MOD in spot and if media news are to be believed they are not happy about it and rightly so , such statements have long term implications way beyond Naik tenure and the MOD/MEA has to grapple with it and it does not change any thing on the ground , in a nuclear war neither country would win and its a loose loose game.

What the ACM said amounted to nothing more than stating that the sun will set in the west. The govt sent a message via ACM Naik and both the press question about the new super duper paki tactical nuke and ACM Naik's imagery was choreographed. There was nothing else he could have said.

Something had to be done to rid the pakis of any delusions about brilliant gamechangers while talking cho chweetly to their cinderalla. They know that they have been slapped down where they belong, including Cinderella who had the bolls to meet with the valley turds and the local kabab.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jul 2011 11:51

Austin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:I have read interviews of SPD chiefs including lt gen khalid kidwai and they come across as rabid as any jehadi maulavi. the guy was boasting that he wanted to use those buttons one day !
If Kidwai indeed said that then that makes him equally irresponsible as ACM Naik

sorry, you are doing a gross injustice to ACM Naik. kidwai gleefully expressed a wish to commit nuclear genocide against the hated Indians, it was not even in context while the ACM merely mentioned what our doctrine says in response to a query about potential nuclear strike by pakistan (the context was the news of 24 additional nuclear capable missiles)
as chief of the primary military executive as far as nuclear deterrence is concerned, it is his duty to hold up the doctrine in public, in any case the apathetic responses by our 'saner' politicians have repeatedly reduced our strategic space and emboldened the pakis to bring the nuclear threshold lower and lower. any more interference by our 'sane' people and we might as well not have nukes. deterrence depends on stated declaration of intent, without that adversaries are bound to question both capability and intent resulting in a. this is especially true of delusional pakis to whom any civilized behaviour is proof of weakness that needs to exploited (vajpayee's peace overtures for example. to them it was proof that kafir India was weak, else why would anyone seek peace and it resulted in kargil. this pattern has been repeated again and again).

the 2 situations are completely incomparable, the equal-equal you are doing here is not founded on logic.

Can you post the interview ?

I haven't saved it but it might be there in the 'nuclear threat from pak : boom or bluff' thread in strat forum.

as for ACM Naik, he merely expressed what is already there in our nuclear doctrine, that too in reply to a question. what is the problem with that ?
Me think ACM Naik simply blabbered it out since it was his last 3-4 days of his career in IAF and he had nothing much to loose , what it did was it put the MEA and MOD in spot and if media news are to be believed they are not happy about it and rightly so , such statements have long term implications way beyond Naik tenure and the MOD/MEA has to grapple with it and it does not change any thing on the ground , in a nuclear war neither country would win and its a loose loose game.

boss, all we have are a couple of reports from TOI and telegraph quoting unnamed sources. since when have these media outlets become the paragon of truth. all it takes is one MOD babu (who are anyway looking for ways to put down forces) to invent these stories as 'leak' and parrot it to a couple of scribes over drinks.
rather sad that you are using these dodgy reports to bash someone like ACM Naik and equating him to a bigot like kidwai.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Jul 2011 12:03

Why all this hellstorm over ACM Naik's comments? This is not the first time this has been said. I had read the same thing being said by an ex SFC Chief!
I am sure that this was posted before:
http://www.asianage.com/interview-week/ ... t-back-484

Air Marshal T. M. Asthana (retd), a fighter pilot, was the first Commander-in-Chief of India’s Strategic Forces Command which operationalises the country’s nuclear arsenal.

There are rumours, and also some reports, that they are developing tactical nuclear weapons. I doubt this very much. A tactical nuclear weapon is for use against enemy forces, not the population, and is a sub-kiloton device. Our policy is “no first use”. We won’t be the first to use nuclear weapons of any kind against any country. But the retaliation from our side will be massive if a nuclear device is used against us. I wonder if that is an acceptable risk for Pakistan to take — using a tactical weapon against India and inviting a massive retaliation.

Please remember, we will hit back massively even if Lashkar-e-Tayyaba or any of the terrorists drops a bomb on India. The principle remains the same. We will hit back.

So what new thing did ACM Naik said? Why the controversy?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 30 Jul 2011 12:07

Generation shift in air force

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 30 Jul 2011 12:25

Shrinivasan wrote:
arya wrote:IAF Signs $2.4-billion Mirage 2000 Upgrade Contract
Jingo Khush Hua
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ia ... igned.html

Makes a lot of sense. The mirage has a lotta juice in it. No point not making any use of it. MMRCA is going to go with EF2k.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Jul 2011 12:38

Rahul M wrote: really ? pakistan's det is handled by army generals like kayani through chief of SPD (strategic plans div)
I have read interviews of SPD chiefs including lt gen khalid kidwai and they come across as rabid as any jehadi maulavi. the guy was boasting that he wanted to use those buttons one day ! I don't know where you get this idea of sane operators handling nukes in pakistan, never heard of such a thing.
..

OT but how do you know that this is not deliberate posturing? Pakistan relies on giving an impression of low nuclear threshold and it being seen as a rabid dog.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jul 2011 12:49

abhik, I do think it is posturing but unfortunately in this field perception drives reality.
no more on this from me here, we can continue in the umpteen deterrence related threads if you want.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Jul 2011 13:41

chackojoseph wrote:
shiv wrote:I think you are wrong. This doublespeak is done deliberately.
Correct. It is good to have the out going chief saying such things. Serving ones saying this would amout to threat. This was deliberate.

Especially when you consider that a series of service chiefs/senior officers have done this for the GoI. Last person to do that was Deepak Kapoor and it cause some severe chaddi twisting. And again naive BRF imagined it was "Unauthorized"

. The armed forces are a wing of government and work exactly the same way. When the Indian government wants to make a veiled threat deniably - they get one of the service officers to say it and then claim that he shot his mouth off. This is a well established game. Naive mango people really believe in silly things like "loose cannon" Defence minister "reprimands" service chief , Defence minister "unhappy" etc. That is laughable bullshit - which will be believed ONLY by school kids of the grown up kind. As if a rift will be made public for everyone to discuss.

The Indian PM is the head of state - if he says "We will nuke you" it will cause an international incident. So he gets a service chief to say it and then deny that he had anything to do with it. That way the statement is made and yet claimed that no such thing is intended by the government and the service chief has some "private views" he is expressing.

LOL! Even a baby won't fall for that one but the tactic makes it plausibly deniable . Pakis for whom the statement is intended get the message. It does not matter what anyone else thinks. Everything will be denied. Standard tactics.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 30 Jul 2011 15:01

What one prominent Pakistani thinks his country should do with its atomic weapons

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Jul 2011 15:03

Rahul M wrote:rather sad that you are using these dodgy reports to bash someone like ACM Naik and equating him to a bigot like kidwai.

How would you know if these reports are dodgy or just paid report , it would well be GOI expressing displeasure through sources at what the chief said .... no ?

Like i said if push come to shove and if indeed there is nuclear war there would be nothing left on either side except a loss which will be impossible to over come , ever one knows our doctrine of 2nd strike and everybody know the capability which we and they have , it simply does not any add any thing to the debate , I would expect now a Paki general making similar irresponsible statement in coming days.

As far as GOI not doing any thing , they never did any thing when Paki did not have nuclear weapons , dont expect them to do any thing when they have it , GOI is good at making empty threats that no body takes it seriously except themself and Defiance is Pak middle name.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Jul 2011 15:33

shiv wrote:Especially when you consider that a series of service chiefs/senior officers have done this for the GoI. Last person to do that was Deepak Kapoor and it cause some severe chaddi twisting. And again naive BRF imagined it was "Unauthorized" . The armed forces are a wing of government and work exactly the same way. When the Indian government wants to make a veiled threat deniably - they get one of the service officers to say it and then claim that he shot his mouth off. This is a well established game. Naive mango people really believe in silly things like "loose cannon" Defence minister "reprimands" service chief , Defence minister "unhappy" etc. That is laughable bullshit - which will be believed ONLY by school kids of the grown up kind. As if a rift will be made public for everyone to discuss.

The Indian PM is the head of state - if he says "We will nuke you" it will cause an international incident. So he gets a service chief to say it and then deny that he had anything to do with it. That way the statement is made and yet claimed that no such thing is intended by the government and the service chief has some "private views" he is expressing. LOL! Even a baby won't fall for that one but the tactic makes it plausibly deniable . Pakis for whom the statement is intended get the message. It does not matter what anyone else thinks. Everything will be denied. Standard tactics.

AFIK, the statements have soiled a lot of Khaki's. Thats why you see nothing less than Paki Foreign Min or some one equivalent reacting with fanfare. Then the paki gen will sit in front of the other jenrails and utter some words warning India. If an army more than twice your size, Af, more than 3 times and navy more than 5 times, utters something, its going to be heard in lot of place.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Jul 2011 17:15

MiG-29UPG in IAF colours and what looks like a lighter shade of gray than the earlier Tipnis gray scheme

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 30 Jul 2011 17:41

^^ why dark grey at the tip of the horizontal stabilizers??and can any gurus explain the disadvantages of modifying the starboard side horizontal control surface for indian EW system?? its effective surface area has decreased .

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Jul 2011 18:04

Will the Mig-29s still have Jet Inlets on top after the upgrade, I thought they will be done away with so that they can carry more fuel and hence better range?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jul 2011 18:35

that would mean changing the airframe.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Jul 2011 18:47

Aditya_V wrote:Will the Mig-29s still have Jet Inlets on top after the upgrade, I thought they will be done away with so that they can carry more fuel and hence better range?

I haven't figured out what the connection is in your view betwren intake louvres on top and extra fuel.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jul 2011 18:51

I guess he meant use the volume occupied by the louvers and the extra inlet channels as a extension of the nearest fuel tank.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Jul 2011 19:04

Singha wrote:I guess he meant use the volume occupied by the louvers and the extra inlet channels as a extension of the nearest fuel tank.

Perhaps - but the louvres have a function that cannot be replaced by more fuel. So how does the fact of more fuel make it possible to remove the louvres? It's like saying "I've had breakfast, so I don't need to pee". One does not translate to the other.