Indian Naval Discussion

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asbchakri
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby asbchakri » 30 Jul 2011 05:29

Any new news about the IAC. Can any one post some latest pics if any on it. thanks

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 30 Jul 2011 09:30

Will wrote:Oto Melara, a company of the Finmeccanica group, involved in the design and production of small and medium calibre naval guns, and BHEL are producing a 76 mm naval gun. The Indian Navy has appointed Bhel as the production agency the 127 mm large calibre gun.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only part of that gun that BHEL will be developing will be the packaging :(


Slightly OT

This is how the GOI pampers the PSU, with public money. BHEL is definitly one of the much better run PSUs, but....

Why TF is BHEL, a premier power plant manufacturing company, poking its finger in making naval guns ? Does this mean that the GOI/MOD/IN have no confidece in the OFB hwo should be making it ? What if a pvt company ties up with Oto Melara and "competes" with BHEL ? BHEL gets the order on price / PSU preference.

And we want to indigenise !!!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 30 Jul 2011 14:46


Rahul M
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 30 Jul 2011 17:30

kersi saar, you are shooting at the wrong guys. BHEL is not some unknown entity in this business, they supply the Oto melara 76mm gun to navy for sometime now.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ranjithnath » 30 Jul 2011 17:44

asbchakri wrote:Any new news about the IAC. Can any one post some latest pics if any on it. thanks

i myself am from kochi and i tried getting info from people working in the shipyard.all i could get was that the navy has built some sort of a huge enclosure and only limited access was given inside that.will try to get somemore info though.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 30 Jul 2011 21:22

No you do not have to.

there is a reason the Navy has kept it under wraps

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby biswas » 30 Jul 2011 22:11

^ To the people doubting BHELs capability:

Forbes ranks BHEL No.9 in list of World's 100 Most Innovative Companies

http://machinist.in/index.php?option=co ... 2&Itemid=1

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby S_Prasad » 30 Jul 2011 22:18

biswas wrote:^ To the people doubting BHELs capability:

Forbes ranks BHEL No.9 in list of World's 100 Most Innovative Companies

http://machinist.in/index.php?option=co ... 2&Itemid=1


Its rank is in power equipment field .....

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby biswas » 30 Jul 2011 22:30

S_Prasad wrote:
biswas wrote:^ To the people doubting BHELs capability:

Forbes ranks BHEL No.9 in list of World's 100 Most Innovative Companies

http://machinist.in/index.php?option=co ... 2&Itemid=1


Its rank is in power equipment field .....


And?

I believe this is an important excerpt.

Embedded in each of these companies is a code for innovation, discernible in their people, processes and philosophies, what is referred to as a ‘3P’ framework for understanding the DNA of innovative organisations. The study also recognises the CEO that fully grasps how to embed the 3Ps deeply into a company’s culture to create a powerful, positive innovation premium, setting him apart from other CEOs.


This company is good at what it does, there is no reason to blindly assume that it'll pass off foreign maal as its own. I believe BHEL will make good use of its joint venture with Oto Melara to absorb technology as per its philosophy.

Give credit where it is deserved.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 30 Jul 2011 22:58

look, it has forging and casting capability better than what most others have. and that is why it gets these orders.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby S_Prasad » 31 Jul 2011 03:28

I agree that the people are good and the company is good that doesnot guarantee that they can simply produce stuff that's out of their realm.
Any way if they can do it ........I would be the first one to be happy as desh would immensely benefit from that

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 31 Jul 2011 20:09

http://frontierindia.net/indiandefence/ ... d-in-2012/

paging CJ,
According to this story of yours INS Kolkata's gonna be delivered in 2015.

1. Can you confirm this?

2. If yes, is MDL at all worried that they are taking 12 years to build ( from keel laying to commissioning) an effing destroyer? yes I know it is two generations ahead of many legacy ships, but still?

3. will project 17A and 15B do better, as in at least see light of day in 4-5 years from the time they are laid down?

4. If not, then how exactly does the Indian Navy hope to keep up with the Chinese?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 31 Jul 2011 20:34

^ Once again IN is not trying to keep pace with PLAN, as for the delays it has been reported earlier IIRC the issue is partly due to Barak-8 which is not yet ready.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 31 Jul 2011 21:32

Rahul M wrote:kersi saar, you are shooting at the wrong guys. BHEL is not some unknown entity in this business, they supply the Oto melara 76mm gun to navy for sometime now.


My question is simple. Why should BHEL, a premier power eqpt manufacturing GIANT, go for such items ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 31 Jul 2011 21:53

why did L&T, originally a dairy equipment maker go for making nuclear submarines. why did M&M, a tractor maker go for aircraft ? why did a vegetable oil company wipro go for software ?

the question is why shouldn't they ? if they have the competence and it fits in with their operating philosophy who are we to question what they should do. from a jingo point of view as long as a desi company does it and does it well, there's nothing to complain about ?

for a company with the technical capacity of BHEL making naval guns is not a big deal. my real interest is to know whether we will be making the ammo and if so who will do it ? it's the vulcano ammo which is the secret sauce for this gun.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 31 Jul 2011 22:15

it's the vulcano ammo


exactly. that baby can be considered LRLAP's chhota bhai.

^ Once again IN is not trying to keep pace with PLAN, as for the delays it has been reported earlier IIRC the issue is partly due to Barak-8 which is not yet ready.


the other reasons are well known too. 2600 changes in the design, poor infrastructure at MDL and of course paucity of steel deliveries.

All very nice to say we ain't "racin.. with chicom". but we are, whether we like it or not..

A wise admiral once said that he was more keen on one really good ship than ten ordinary ones. yeah but even that one el fantastico ship cannot be at two places at once, unless of course the bhartiya nau sena was a secret party to the philly experiment.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 31 Jul 2011 23:56

Rahul M wrote:why did L&T, originally a dairy equipment maker go for making nuclear submarines. why did M&M, a tractor maker go for aircraft ? why did a vegetable oil company wipro go for software ?

the question is why shouldn't they ? if they have the competence and it fits in with their operating philosophy who are we to question what they should do. from a jingo point of view as long as a desi company does it and does it well, there's nothing to complain about ?

for a company with the technical capacity of BHEL making naval guns is not a big deal. my real interest is to know whether we will be making the ammo and if so who will do it ? it's the vulcano ammo which is the secret sauce for this gun.


Ok Agree

But L&T did not go form making dairy equipment to nuclear subs overnight. It has evolved into a world class fabricator especially of large thick wall equipment for refineries, power plants, (land based) nuclear reactors, petrochemical plants etc.

Is this large thick wall equipment akin to a submarine ? So it can be argued as a "natural" expansion of its product portfolio.

An open secret. Over 15 years ago L&T had developed a complete shell of a land based nuclear submarine. This is/was to be at Vizag. This was the "first" ATV. officially called a PTC Towers, very similar to the distillation & absorbtio towers made by L&T

The issue of BHEL making naval guns perhaps proves only one point.

INDIAN NAVY HAS NO CONFIDENCE IN THE OFBS MAKING THIS GUN.

That is why perhaps they chose BHEL, a PSU. Choosing a private player would have invited CAG audits and rumour of scams. Come to think IN has perhaps taken a wise decision of selecting one of the much better run PSUs. As mentioned above BHEL may be having soem excess capacity in forging, casting, machining etc lying idle so why not make the best use.

Kersi

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 01 Aug 2011 06:50

>> INDIAN NAVY HAS NO CONFIDENCE IN THE OFBS MAKING THIS GUN.

does anyone ? ;) OFBs need to be either massively overhauled with new labour regulations in place, or broken up and sold to the highest bidders piece by piece, retaining the few that are decent performers.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 01 Aug 2011 07:59

D Roy wrote:http://frontierindia.net/indiandefence/ins-sahyadri-to-be-delivered-in-2012/

paging CJ,
According to this story of yours INS Kolkata's gonna be delivered in 2015.

1. Can you confirm this?


I have confirmed this. Without that I won't post it.

For your other replies. They need lead time for delivery of equipment etc.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 01 Aug 2011 09:45

For your other replies. They need lead time for delivery of equipment etc.


So we can expect more of the same from them for P-17A and 15B as well? or are things getting better?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vishnu.nv » 01 Aug 2011 10:32

10-12 years of construction time for a destroyer is not acceptable by any means. This will effect the navy which is trying to cop up with the PLAN. The MDL proved themselves to be incompetent for the task they have.

Better the navy give Project 15A and 17A to other shipyards who can do the task professionally. Even the IAC construction time projected is less and Cochin shipyard is doing a wonder full job there.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Aug 2011 11:22

indeed - we need to be finishing up DDG/FFG in 5 yrs from start to finish. the good shipyards probably do it in 3 or 4.

our rate of DDG/FFG output has never really improved for the last decade.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 01 Aug 2011 12:25

BHEL can even build midget subs/components if reqd.Manufacturing the hulls would be chickenfeed for it,they could be churned out like sausages!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 01 Aug 2011 17:23

X-post

India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet
EconomicmTimes

According to the BAE Systems officials, the Typhoon, which is a shore-based combat jet, has the potential to be a carrier-borne aircraft, provided a few modifications are made to the aircraft itself, essentially in a ski-jump take-off configuration due to the thrust-vectoring 90 kN (kilo Newton) engine that powers it.

Among the changes, it identifies strengthening of the undercarriage of the aircraft to assist in hard landings on a carrier's deck, fitting a carrier hook for arrested landings, and a good paint coating to help it withstand the vagaries of nature at sea.

The choice of the Typhoon for the Indian Navy the officials said, will complement the experience of operating the British Sea Harrier vertical-landing carrier-borne aircraft on board its lone aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, for over two decades now. Of the nearly 30 Harriers India had got for INS Viraat, only about 10 are left in service, with the rest lost in air crashes.

The offer has been made keeping in mind the Indian Navy's request for information issued in 2009. But the Indian Navy itself is not very amused with the offer.

First, according to officials, the Indian Navy plans to induct the Russian-built Admiral Gorshkov or INS Vikramaditya in the next couple of years. This warship will deploy Russian MiG-29K naval fighter jets and for this, the vessel is being reconfigured into a ski-jump take-off but arrested landing (STOBAR) mode at the Sevmash shipyard in Russia.

The same aircraft will be operated from the flight deck of India's indigenous aircraft carrier, under construction at the Cochin Shipyard, when it is inducted in the middle of this decade. Hence the Indian Navy has placed a total order for 45 MiG-29Ks for the two carriers from Russia.

For the future, the navy wants the Defence Research and Development Organisation's Tejas light combat aircraft's naval variant to fructify. If it does, then it may be the future carrier-borne aircraft of the navy for its two more indigenous aircraft carriers planned for construction at the Cochin Shipyard. But that decision is a long shot as it stands today, according to senior naval aviation officers.

But here is where the EADS, and BAE Systems in particular, is hopeful and is pitching the Typhoons as a powerful STOBAR platform for the future indigenous aircraft carriers of India.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 01 Aug 2011 18:16

Singha wrote:indeed - we need to be finishing up DDG/FFG in 5 yrs from start to finish. the good shipyards probably do it in 3 or 4.

our rate of DDG/FFG output has never really improved for the last decade.

A full sized destroyer will take at least 6 years unless you plan to cut corners. Even if P-15A was completed by now Barak-8 or its launching mechanism is not yet ready. Yes MDL shares some blame for P-15A delay part of reason is unlike with BZ or Yantar where we can impose fines when ship is delayed we can't do the same with MDL so there is no real incentive to meet deadlines.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 01 Aug 2011 18:43

D Roy wrote:So we can expect more of the same from them for P-17A and 15B as well? or are things getting better?


vishnu.nv wrote:10-12 years of construction time for a destroyer is not acceptable by any means. This will effect the navy which is trying to cop up with the PLAN. The MDL proved themselves to be incompetent for the task they have.

Better the navy give Project 15A and 17A to other shipyards who can do the task professionally. Even the IAC construction time projected is less and Cochin shipyard is doing a wonder full job there.


It could be some internal jig with Navy or MoD. First deliver this or that. Else MDL wouldn't have delayed it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 Aug 2011 19:05

D Roy wrote:look, it has forging and casting capability better than what most others have. and that is why it gets these orders.


And power electronics needed for gun control etc.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 01 Aug 2011 22:53

Paging Rahul M.

I need your email id brother.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 01 Aug 2011 23:23

it's in my profile signature boss.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 02 Aug 2011 16:42

..and pray,where is the money for "pioneering" the naval EF going to come from? Everyone expects India to foot the bill! Hillary wants us to buy the JSF at "unbelievable" prices,when her own allies are seriously considering deserting the project in droves,due to delays and open-ended costs.The globe's arms dealers have invaded the country as the defence buys for the 3 services is supposed to be more than $100 billion within the next few years.The Europeans are in the thores of economic stagnation and strangulation,just having had to bail out Greece and Obama at the 59th minue of the 11th hour,succumbed to the "mad hatters" of the Republican "Tea party" ,compromising with them over the scale of the US deficit,a tiny amount in trillions!

The MIG-29Ks,which are coming in at very reasonable costs in comparison with other options like the F-18,at least $10-15m less per aircraft,also have room for deep upgrades,AESA radar,TVC,new IRST,anti-missile systems,etc.There is also a wide range of contemporary PG munitions and missiles that come with it,common to the SU-30MKI.When and hopefully the LCAN also matures,we will have another low-cost light naval aircraft available to complement the heavier Fulcrums.At the moment we will possess only two 45,000t carriers plus the ageles Viraat until 2020,when IAC-2,supposedly larger to counter the PLANs 65,000t carriers on order,will arrive.At that time a naval stealth aircraft ,possibly a version of the FGFA would be best,as it would be totally "controlled" by us not having to depend upon a foreign supplier except for Russia ,the JV partner,with limited foreign components.

The money spent on developing the FGFA-N will be better spent on a naval stealth aircratf than a naval EF.The tech acquired/developed for the FGFA could be synergised with the development of the AMCA or a naval stealth UCAV.Beyond 2020,the attraction of stealthy UCAVs,long endurance and with a substantial internal weapons bay will outweigh the attraction of developing highly expensive manned aircraft.Air forces in the future will be using both manned and unmanned aircraft together,with manned aircraft most probably acting like "mother ships".With re-usable hypersonic aircraft/missiles also being planned,what the IAF has been talking of in recfent times of an "aero-space" air force will be more in evidence.The RMA in naval aviation is just around the corner with the USN about to test its own carrier based UCAVs for the future.The USN plans to operate UCAVs from its carriers well before the end of the decade if the development runs to schedyule.If the IN can also develop a naval UCAV by 2020,it would be a great achievement,as by using more UCAVs,medium sized carriers that the IN will operate (the Gorky and IAC-1) will be ideal for operating such smaller aircraft.This is where the naval LCA holds out such promise.An unmanned UCAV developed from LCA technology-as i've been advising for several years,must be on the anvil,as its size is ideal for devloping such an aircraft.The IN is already with israel trying to devlop an unmanned helo based upon the Chetal/Allouette airframe,why can't it do the same with the LCA?

I was also reading a piece where the PLAF (?) is suppoedly developing a supersonic unmanned "missile" using old legacy aircraft,of which it has several thousands,specifically to be used against Taiwan.This is exactly what I said a few years ago,using our hundreds of old airframes of Ajeets,MIG-21s,etc. on "suicide" missions to overwhelm Taiwan's defences.I am sure that we can likewise develop at least several hundreds-at least 500 of these deadly weapons using these old airframes at little cost.Why not?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SKrishna » 02 Aug 2011 21:00

LiveFist Tweets ...

In #Parliament: India's First indigenous aircraft carrier to be launched this December. 75% of hull work complete at Kochi.


Hurrah!!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 02 Aug 2011 21:27

Philip wrote:
I was also reading a piece where the PLAF (?) is suppoedly developing a supersonic unmanned "missile" using old legacy aircraft,of which it has several thousands,specifically to be used against Taiwan.This is exactly what I said a few years ago,using our hundreds of old airframes of Ajeets,MIG-21s,etc. on "suicide" missions to overwhelm Taiwan's defences.I am sure that we can likewise develop at least several hundreds-at least 500 of these deadly weapons using these old airframes at little cost.Why not?


And how exactly is that supposed to work Mig-21 was not designed to fly at low altitudes at high speeds you will have very little maneuverability and maneuvering it thru obstacles would require a good EO/IR sensor/GPS and terrain following radar. For the cost it would take to modify and maintain this thing it is much cheaper to fire some cruise/ballistic missiles.

If you were planning to fly this at high altitude and then dive to hit its target heck even the Libyans can shoot this down without any problems.

Good to see launch timeline for IAC and looks like it will fairly be complete at the time of its launch.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Hariprasad » 02 Aug 2011 22:18

People have seen this yet ? Lying basta**s :evil:

[youtube]2RNkUf1PezM&feature=player_embedded#at=242[/youtube]

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gurneesh » 02 Aug 2011 22:53

noob question: why was the paki ship allowed to creep up to the indian ship. Isn't some area around the battle ship sovereign territory of the nation (whose flag that ship carries).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby manum » 02 Aug 2011 23:10

It happened when they were escorting the released merchant ship with Indians and Pakistani's on board...This is why it all happened and Indians decided to keep restraint than displaying false bravado...Pakistani's always pay for this later...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saip » 02 Aug 2011 23:38

Whose video is that? What are they shouting?

Now that I see the no F20 on the other ship it must be INS Godavari. Then this video was shot by pakis on PNS Babur.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby dnivas » 02 Aug 2011 23:46

Hariprasad wrote:
[youtube]2RNkUf1PezM&feature=player_embedded#at=242[/youtube]


The troops on the Paki ship are like barbarians. what kinda military operation is that when no one is at their post. It is like some type of vacation trip

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sourab_c » 02 Aug 2011 23:46

saip wrote:Whose video is that? What are they shouting?

Now that I see the no F20 on the other ship it must be INS Godavari. Then this video was shot by pakis on PNS Babur.


They are shouting "Allahu Akbar"

The naivety of their naval personnel amazes me.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saip » 02 Aug 2011 23:50

Strange. Their own video shows they are the ones who made the dangerous moves. It is like a thief putting his own act on youtube! :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby dnivas » 02 Aug 2011 23:59

Yeah , just saved the flv file incase it is pulled.


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