Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2011

[Lalmohan]

no need to say anything, these men are born and bred yorkshiremen, they drink tetley beer and eat fish and chips and like geoffrey boycott and er... maybe... er... could be... possibly... slightly... er... of an... er... islamic persuasion...

the unspoken subtext is very clear given the previous convictions of vulnerable children's molesters from a certain south asian background

[Lisa]

^ They might be holding UK passports.

Why not say that they are persons of Asian origin.

You may be missing the point unless i missed the sarcasam.

[shiv]

Without any pisskological analogies, do you believe Pakistan stands a chance in hell of defeating US in a conventional war ? ( Mind you, we are not talking about a endless occupation like Afg/Iraq/Vietnam). If yes, what chance does India have against a Pakistan that can defeat the world's sole superpower ? Looking through such a prism, we just have to throw our hands in the air and admit that we'll continue to get blown by Paki terrorists and can do nothing about it. That's the point you are trying to make.

Everyone loves piskology as long as its supports his own viewpoint. The minute the same piskology shows up chinks in reasoning, piskology becomes a problem. The US's capability is meaningless without the will power to defeat Pakistan. US spokespersons including IIRC THE Hillary herself have clearly stated that there is no chance of the US going to war with a 180 million people plus nuclear armed Pakistan. It is only enthusiastic rah rah America hopefuls who believe that the US will contemplate war with Pakistan and then win it. Someone please wake me up if it happens - but everyone on this board will probably have died of old age before that comes to pass.

Nowadays on this thread - my bullshit detection meter is ringing more loudly and frequently. The stories that are being concocted would put the Pakistani Urdu press and the Nutty Nation to shame.

The US, it is eagerly asserted, controls Pakistan. The US, it seems, twirls Pakistan on the palm of its hand. Yeah. tell me another one. But the US will not attack Pakistan because it needs Pakistan to counter India.

Lets get this straight. The US, sole sooperpower, can control Pakistan. But to control India, it needs Pakistan's help. That would be a great idea if the US actually controlled Pakistan. Now lets see how the US is controlling Pakistan. Since the 1960s the US has poured in tens of billions in aid, gifted aircraft, AAMs, radars, helos, ships, submarines, missiles into Pakistan. This is "control" right? The US gives Pakistan all this and Pakistan does exactly what the US wants, according to this toddlers bedtime story. No, I am told. That is not all. Apart from this generosity the US is "kicking Pakistani ass" (rah rah rah America). And what does this kicking of Pakistani ass consist of?

• An attack on Afghanistan held back while Pakis were evacuated
• Amritraj shouting at Musharraf leading to Musharraf hoodwinking the stupid Yankee Gringos
• 3 Arab men killed in an attack on the bin Laden compound
• Dozens of Taliban killed in drone attacks with drones taking off from Pakistan with the full knowledge of the Paki army.

If this is "kicking Paki ass" the US has to be the most inept and incompetent nation on earth when it comes to kicking ass, and I beg people who seriously tell me that all this is "punishment" of Pakistan to show me mercy. I can't breathe when I laugh so much. Are people being serious here? I mean serious? This is "kicking Pakistani ass?" Holy smoke! I like the stuff that is being smoked round these parts.

Ah no! I am told. The US is not really punishing Pakistan. The US needs Pakistan to counter India remember? But flippin heck - if the US is not going to punish Pakistan what the hell is the use of all that US power that can "take out Pakistan in hours". It's a load of crock. Basically the US is paying Pakistan. Pakistan is not cooperating. And the US is trying to do the job ineffectively with drones appeals and lectures without hurting Pakistan. And this pathetic story is being pushed on here as "US control of Pakistan and a US capability of handling Pakistan at will"

Rubbish! Balderdash. I haven't heard such worthless blather even in the wildest dreams of the Pakistani press. All this contradictory nonsense has so many holes that a sieve looks like a 10 foot thick steel wall in comparison.

This concocted story is being told on here from a US viewpoint designed to somehow give the US an aura that it does not need or deserve. The truth is simple. Pakistan calls the shots. Pakistan takes what it wants and as long as events are to Pakistan's satisfaction they cooperate. When things do not suit the Paki army they say "Enough!" and tell the US where to get off. And the great superpower US is left blabbering and performing ineffective actions like drone attacks and shouting at Musharraf while the rah rah USA cheerleaders bunch around saying "The US is great! Can you prove that the US cannot take out Pakistan in a jiffy! They have the capacity! They have the potential." Potential my left foot

Pah! BRF cannot even hope to be behind the curve - BRF is not even in the curve by subscribing to the sort of nonsense that is being pushed on here. If we understand the US's weakness with regard to Pakistan, we can begin to comprehend our own weakness. But we want to live on in la la land.

[Philip]

I agree with Shiv.Ever since Partition,the US aided by other western entities and "titties",have molly-cuddled Pak and legions of its uniformed tribesmen,the "crore commanders" ,plus any number of Paki babus and politicos,so that they did Uncle Sam's bidding and performed a variety of "rent-boy" tricks ever mindful of the interests of their patron.The aim of the patron was to have a client,subservient vassal state at the historic gateways to India,the High Himalayan passes,from whence invasions into the subcontinent took place.Strategically located also at the mouth of the Persian Gulf,and a springboard into Cebtral Asia,Tibet and China,espaecially if Kashmir could be hived off as a separate indepndent (client) state or delivered into Paki hands, such a client state would checkmate any Soviet attempt to obtain a warm water port through Afghanistan and Pak.Pak,India's mortal enemy would be supported ad nauseum with military and economic aid so that Non-Aligned India,a moral world power with hgue influebnce in former British colonies and in Afro-Asian forums,would be unable to interfere in the US's plans for Asia during the Cold War.

Unfortunately,a certain lady called Mrs.G. put paid the the machinations of the Pakis-Gen Yahya Khan,Zulfie Bhutto,plus Nixon,Kissinger,et al,when India rent Pak into two,creating Bangladesh.Since '71,especially when the Soviets were forced to intervene in Afghanistan-now revealed by the US itself as it was heavily engaged in covert ops using the Pakis,Pak under Zia obtained huge amounts of aid and arms courtesy Uncle Sam and the west.When Zia went too far on the road to islam,and was refusing to listen to his white masters,they eecided to send him to "firdaus" along with a crate of mangoes! The same fate befell Noriega,Saddam,and others.Disobey Uncle Sam and you get fixed-permanently!

50+ years of Paki perfidy has only been possible through the munificence of the Yanquis and more than the supply of advanced weaponry to Pak has been the Nelsonian eye that Bill Clinton used to enable Pak to obtain covertly N-weapons ,missiles and tech for the same,thanks to the US's hatred of India.It cannot stomach the fact that we are the world's largest democracy wedded to a policy of neutrality and unwilling to join sides in global geo-politics.The ISI and CIA have been joined at the hip for decades.Separating them is proving to be extremely painful.What we are seeing right now is Teddy R's famous "stick" being used to "beat the dog",make it obey,otherwise a new "dog or dogs" will be put in place,after much suffering and sorrow,as we are seeing in Iraq and elsewhere.The US wants India to be a benign friendly doggie,wagging its tail whenever Uncle Sam or his envoy comes-a-visiting,and barking and biting if need be at Uncle Sam's pet hates!

[Ambar]

Knob? What knob? They hold a knob as much as a hostage negotiator paying off the kidnapper holds a knob. That supply route to US troops in Afg. and the +X dollahs fuel costs coming over CAR ... that's how the Pakis have the US by the short and curlies. If you're looking for knobs I'd suggest looking at the burning fuel tankers evertime the aid spigot is turned off.

Good.So that's settled, US pays Pakistan in return for a service that helps US, pray explain what service do we get through WKKs that helps India ?

I'm guessing if we had an ocean or two between us and Pakistan we'd have less attacks too. I can see how stellar a job the US does of sealing the Afg/Pak border. That's the terrain we have with them too.

This is news to me! US is now in charge of securing the Afghan border too ? But then again we digress, ocean or no ocean does not help the fact our intelligence could be much much better than what it is now.

Yes. The US is entirely free of mindless bleeding hearts. No siree.. no useful idiots in America. Such is it's greatness.

Since Indian bleeding heart WKKs are == China/US policy towards Pakistan,American bleeding hearts ==Chinese policy towards N.Korea ? Dhanya ho guruji for such pisskoligical analysis!

[gakakkad]

Altair ji- The worst harm US/Indian forces could do to TSP is to destroy TSP Airforce and Navy. And even this would take weeks . What next? Do we even feel remotely threatened by PN/PAF ? Everyone knows PAF/PN is pathetic. Would destroying them stop terror attacks ? Ground attack would be daunting to say the least.US lost 7000+ troops in Iraq . The casualty figures in an invasion of TSP could be 10 times more. Is India or US willing lose 50k men ? And that too with no guarantee of achieving the target of stopping terror?

(They surely have sleeper cells inside both US , India and most of Oirope who would retaliate . India may have impregnable airspace with AWACS, greenpine SAM and all that but thats not how TSP would strike us in case of war. The SIMI piglets would wreck havoc PAF can never hope too. 9/11 may seem like a simple road accident in comparison to what their American sleepers might do. Fai was just the tip of the iceberg .

I am not dhoti shivering . The solution to TSP does exist. And it does involve an attack. But thats not just it. There has to be a combination of psy-ops , covert ops and political interventions. It has often been discussed on BR. TSP has to be divided into 5 countries. And attacking TSP madly will not achieve the surgical division we want to.

[Ambar]

.......

Thanks for the effort,doc. In your copious post you failed to answer 2 straight forward questions put to you. If Pakistan is not a "renter" state, but a country that dictates terms to those who throw alms at it, we surely have a reason to shiver in our dhotis, and have no business to be upset about US/West providing Pak with financial aid to survive, political support to legitimize its existence and military equipment to arm itself to its teeth. After all, US is sh1t scared about Pakis,so can we really blame them ? Probably that's the reason why Egypt gets a bigger financial aid than Pakistan and those flashy weaponry, US probably worries about its very existence being threatened by the Egyptians.

[shiv]

Thanks for the effort,doc. In your copious post you failed to answer 2 straight forward questions put to you. If Pakistan is not a "renter" state, but a country that dictates terms to those who throw alms at it, we surely have a reason to shiver in our dhotis, and have no business to be upset about US/West providing Pak with financial aid to survive, political support to legitimize its existence and military equipment to arm itself to its teeth.

Sorry. Makes no sense. We have reason to dhoti shiver alright, but how does that make it OK for Pak to get aid?

After all, US is sh1t scared about Pakis,so can we really blame them ? Probably that's the reason why Egypt gets a bigger financial aid than Pakistan and those flashy weaponry, US probably worries about its very existence being threatened by the Egyptians.

Egypt gets more aid is a pathetic excuse. But here again is another example of US obsession

USA is WKK^1000 in terms of aid, love and friendship given to Pakistan

Stop confusing yourself with what the US does as an example of what India should do. The US is botching its job of loving Pakistan and we have no business using the US as an example of how to handle Pakistan

[rajpa]

what did khan achieve with noko or iran? pretty much nothing. given that, the US are ways ahead with tsp in getting what they want. where there is a tough love dynamic going on between khan and tsp, in the case of noko and iran, US doesnt have any relationship at all.

if tsp believes that they can put ungli up khan's a** just like noko or iran - they are wrong. this is because imo tsp folks are not radicalised enough - unlike noko or iran - where they can shut themselves off while being consistent with their ideology and also have a modicum of self-sufficiency. the rape and tspa both know this to be true.

the rape class is painting a picture of being the bulwark of tsp's "liberalism" and therefore, integration with the rest of the world. this is however not the case. they are a picture of tsp's inability to radicalize and to put up the ungli to khan or to india. so they are on a downward spiral already. the "great liberal rape class" is actually a tsp weakness to negotiate or downhill ski, which they have been projecting so far as their strength.

similarly, tspa has been holding their country to ransom, but they cannot get away from working with the khan. they have been portraying this as a difficult thing for them to sell to their people. it is their own people that they are scared of.

WKKs believe that making love to the rape class with chai biskoot will result in tsp giving up radicalism altogether, without using the other lever - tspa - to force this to happen.

khan flicks both levers - rape levers - such as turning on and off of aid $$ and tspa lever - also uses its army to nudge tspa into some action. interesting days are ahead.

[CRamS]

We on BRF are talking utter crap if we use the US as an example of how Pakistan should be handled. The US is admired too much for non existent capability. The US is not the direction we need to look to handle Pakistan.

DocJi, kindly give your fellow BRites more credit. Nobody is suggesting that India should handle TSP the way US handles TSP. There are significant differences:

1) USA, with its mighty military machine has the capabiity to reduce TSP to a pile of rubble should it choose to. Remember, Hisroshima and Nagasaki? Thus, USA deals with TSP from an absolute position of strength

2) USA, or rather the USA empire has geo-poitical objectives. And one such objective is to bottle up smart SDREs in a "South Asia" box. Thus, it chooses not to destroy TSP but rather work with it through inducements

In contrast, India deals with TSP from a position of military parity. And I don't need to repeat what should be elementary TSP 101 for any BRite, namely, TSP is so obsessed with India, that it relishes a nuke war in which it can take India down. So thats the India TSP equation.

Thus, in combination with militay parity with India, its support from USA, TSP is going about its national objective, namely, destroy India through a 1000 cuts. All many of us on BR are saying is that India's response to this maniacal obsession of TSP is not WKKism (in my opiion, that is slow-motion surrender: for e.g., MMS resuming talks with TSP despite 26/11), but rather a more aggressive diplomaic posture, which in our opinion, India is capable of but for WKKitis.

I don't see where anybody admiring US or asking India to emultae US has got to do with this. Simple hard-nosed diplomacy, thats all.

[rajpa]

We on BRF are talking utter crap if we use the US as an example of how Pakistan should be handled. The US is admired too much for non existent capability. The US is not the direction we need to look to handle Pakistan.

DocJi, kindly give your fellow BRites more credit. Nobody is suggesting that India should handle TSP the way US handles TSP. There are significant differences:

1) USA, with its mighty military machine has the capabiity to reduce TSP to a pile of rubble should it choose to. Remember, Hisroshima and Nagasaki? Thus, USA deals with TSP from an absolute position of strength

2) USA, or rather the USA empire has geo-poitical objectives. And one such objective is to bottle up smart SDREs in a "South Asia" box. Thus, it chooses not to destroy TSP but rather work with it through inducements

In contrast, India deals with TSP from a position of military parity. And I don't need to repeat what should be elementary TSP 101 for any BRite, namely, TSP is so obsessed with India, that it relishes a nuke war in which it can take India down. So thats the India TSP equation.

Thus, in combination with militay parity with India, its support from USA, TSP is going about its national objective, namely, destroy India through a 1000 cuts. All many of us on BR are saying is that India's response to this maniacal obsession of TSP is not WKKism (in my opiion, that is slow-motion surrender: for e.g., MMS resuming talks with TSP despite 26/11), but rather a more aggressive diplomaic posture, which in our opinion, India is capable of but for WKKitis.

I don't see where anybody admiring US or asking India to emultae US has got to do with this. Simple hard-nosed diplomacy, thats all.

CRamS - the threat by USA to nuke to stone age doesnt work with noko or iran does it?

OTOH, india is not a pushover for tsp to try pushing ungli without fear.

why invent this south asia scenario - when it is difficult to deal with one country as it is..?

diplomacy is probably far more subtle than such simplified scenarios i would guess.

[Gus]

if US is all so mighty and powerful and can make Pak dance...why is it still bleeding in Afg?

Their influence can only do so much with Pak. They threaten Pak. Pak says ok. Then Pak won't do it. Then they threaten again. Pak says ok but give us this. Negotiations drag on. They give Pakis a little. Pakis put up a show. Not enough says Khan and threatens again. Pakis do a 'after me the deluge' drama. Khan backs down a little. They threaten again.....you get the drift?

Since 911 it is the paki establishment getting away with what they want - than the other way around.

Let me even go further. Pakis facilitated 911. Khan has just taken the hit and lashed out at pansies like Iraq and Afg. And has given money and arms to Pak army. We should probably bomb BD or SL for the heck of it and call it as our show of strength too...

[nachiket]

1) USA, with its mighty military machine has the capabiity to reduce TSP to a pile of rubble should it choose to. Remember, Hisroshima and Nagasaki? Thus, USA deals with TSP from an absolute position of strength

The capability to reduce pak to rubble means nothing if the US is not prepared to use it. What exactly does pakistan have to do so that the US actually uses its mighty military machine against it?

Support Afghan Taliban killing US troops in AFG -- Check

Provide sanctuary to same guys in Pakistan -- Check

Harbour the USA's most wanted man who killed thousands of Americans near their military base --- Check

What did the US do? They killed the guy without harming any pakis and went along with the story that the pakis didn't know he was there.

They are not prepared to use their mighty military machine against NoK or Iran, you think they'll do that against Pakistan. And you don't think the pakis know this?

[CRamS]

CRamS - the threat by USA to nuke to stone age doesnt work with noko or iran does it?

OTOH, india is not a pushover for tsp to try pushing ungli without fear.

why invent this south asia scenario - when it is difficult to deal with one country as it is..?

diplomacy is probably far more subtle than such simplified scenarios i would guess.

India is no pushover, but any military victory over TSP will be phyrric at best. And TSP knows that as do TSP's 3.5, and hence their objective to maintain this parity between India & TSP.

Indeed diplomacy is more subtle, and US interests go beyond nuking everybody in sight. But its that absolute power that makes either Iran, or Noko, or TSP stand up and listen to what USA says.

In contrast, TSP conducts 26/11, dares India to a nuke war, shoves all the dosas India serves up down the toilet, shows India the middle finger, and calls for "dialouge" which MMS has acceeded to.

The sheer disparity in India's travails with TSP Vs those of US with TSP are enormous, and comparing USA's inducements to cooperate with it, with India's WKKitis, is disingenuous to say the least (the latter is surrender, while the former is bribery).

[ramana]

Shiv, Who on BRF is advocating the line you say is being advocated?

Thanks, ramana

[Suppiah]

The US, even under the most extreme right wing President (if Reagan or Bush can be called that), has no civilisational or existential issues with TSP or for that matter with anyone. It did not have with the Germans, Russians even. So why would they have a problem with TSP.

So while Shiv garu is right in saying Pakistan calls the shot in the relationship, it is something like, bit like saying the moon has no way of hitting back at the barking dog.

USAs relationship with TSP is measured against what Unkil wants at any given time. If it wants India to be needled, there is of course, one price/value. If it wants Soviets to be defeated, there is another value/price, obviously much higher. And so on...When there is no need, a typical American politician spends about as much time thinking about TSP as he does about the used toilet paper he flushed away.

All this talk of Unkil being afraid of TSP nukes is in one way bulls.it because none of them can reach even Israel, forget about Europe or even massa-land. So if Unkil is worried it is probably about TSP hitting India like Saddam did with Israel. Only he did not have nukes. That does not make TSP strong, it just means it means so little. If I were to go on to the street in Chennai and shout 'kill all Americans', they would probably not bother. On a slightly larger scale, so is TSP.

Right now Unkil needs TSp for Afghan war. It should be obvious to anyone that reads newspapers that they are doing their best to reduce dependence. When there is no further use, TSP will be thrown away like the used toilet paper it really is. Unless India-needling factor which is losing credence is strengthened because Karat & Co come to power here.

Sorry for being a bit fuzzy but I think you get the drift.

[shiv]

DocJi, kindly give your fellow BRites more credit.
<snip>
I don't see where anybody admiring US or asking India to emultae US has got to do with this. Simple hard-nosed diplomacy, thats all.

I will certainly give credit where it is due. It is entirely possible that I see things that you don't see. I will point them out as and when the call for India to emulate the US in handling Pakistan recurs.

I reiterate that the US is WKK^1000 when it comes to its relationship with Pakistan. Any misguided person who thinks otherwise must see the light - or we will forever get sidetracked.

Let me summarize my view:

1. Is India handling Pakistan well? No
2. Are the actions of the WKK correct? No
3. Should India emulate the US in its handling of Pakistan? No

The USA not only mollycoddles Pakistan, it demands that of India much to the delight of WKKs. And yet the USA shows great weakness and inability to handle Pakistan in any way other than by payment of protection money and apology and is at great pains to ensure that nothing that is important to Pakistan is irreparably hurt by the US. (which is advertised as having the strength to do otherwise) This is a weak USA no matter what spin people might put on this behavior. Claims that this is deliberate weakness to ensure Pakistans' survival as an aid to keeping India down may be true, but it is weakness nevertheless. Weakness requiring Pakistani assistance, of all things.

Taking this forward, if the the behavior of Indian WKKs is weak and the behavior of the USA is weak, we have to look at something outside these two paradigms in dealing with Pakistan.

[rajanb]

^^ Interesting stuff going on. Here is an article, which if true strengthens my analysis is that the US itself is rift with dissensions about how to handle the Pakis.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/ ... 6931.shtml

(AP) ISLAMABAD — The American ambassador to Islamabad phoned Washington with an urgent plea: Stop an imminent CIA drone strike against militants on the Pakistani side of the Afghan border.

He feared the timing of the attack would further damage ties with Islamabad, coming only a day after the government grudgingly freed a CIA contractor held for weeks for killing two Pakistanis.

Ambassador Cameron Munter's rare request — disclosed to The Associated Press by several U.S. officials — was forwarded to the head of the CIA, who dismissed it. Some U.S. officials said Leon Panetta's decision was driven by a belief that the militants being targeted were too important to pass up, but others suspected that anger at Pakistan for imprisoning Raymond Davis for so long played a role.

The deadly March 17 attack, which the Pakistanis claim killed 38 civilians, helped send the U.S.-Pakistan relationship into a tailspin from which it has not recovered. .............

The attacks have also strained the relationship between the U.S. State Department and the CIA, where officials argue that killing militants who threaten U.S. interests should take priority over political considerations, said U.S. officials.

Interesting article if you want to peruse the whole thing.

[shiv]

Shiv, Who on BRF is advocating the line you say is being advocated?

Thanks, ramana

Ramana - I will take pains to point that out when it happens again. It appears that everyone has suddenly become blind to what has been glaringly obvious to me. It is not a single person whom I can accuse - but a general direction of thought on BRF that India advocates WKKism - an idea that is held up in stark contrast to US behavior which is highlighted by a number of people as tough. BRF notes every single event when a Predator/Reaper kills someone in Pakistan. In contrast i will be grateful if you or anyone else could point me to a thread in which the four terrorists killed by the security forces in Kashmir yesterday was recorded. The bin Laden raid is still receiving accolades as the act of a "tough" USA when in reality US actions over the years have been, to my mind a great example of weakenss and WKKism that is cursed so much when India displays it.

That idea is what I am questioning rather than accusing a specific person. If there was a specific person to accuse I would make a quote. It is a general idea that is becoming current on BRF where India's weakness is contrasted with the strength of the USA. I see this as a laughable and dishonest reading of reality. I will, as I said, make sure I point out all future instances of anyone comparing WKK weakness with imagined US strength to explain what I mean.

[Lalmohan]

india's strength has been in its softly spoken and quiet intransigence

[rajanb]

Yanquis tough? Give me a break. As far as the Pakis are concerned the Yanquis have been taken for an effing ride for decades. And seemed to enjoy it.

How can a superpower be so dependent on these mango abduls?

And the reson why they bandy about as to why pakis should be handled with kid gloves is because its nukes could fall into the wrong hands!

But the greatest of the great superpower turned a blind eye to Paki developing nukes; a blind eye to their proliferating the nukes to noko, iran and the saudis.

And watching the Yanks attack Iraq because the Iraquis had non-existent WMDs? And handling Pakis who have WMDs with kid gloves?

The only people who can help solve the problem of Pakistan is the Pakis themselves and they are doing a good job in destroying themselves.

Ask yourself this question. What is happening in Karachi? Girlfriends, wives or boyfriends going around being killed or killing? or ethnic cleansing reminiscent of East Pakistan?

All we brave Yindoos must do is watch the process; be diplomatic; and ensure there isn't any fallout that will effect us. And keep our interests as perpetual goals. Not poodles to anyone else.

[ramana]

Shiv,

In contrast i will be grateful if you or anyone else could point me to a thread in which the four terrorists killed by the security forces in Kashmir yesterday was recorded.

If you found that news items then you should post in the J&K news thread instead of waiting for someone else to do it. We all are news gatherers and not bhadralok.

And you can make your points without disparaging unknowns. That would be more efffective.

Again rajanb,
Who is saying US is tough? Please make your points without reference to any members whom you cant identify.

[Prem]

IMHO> Desi WKK DushKaram and USA Poak Takrar-E-Garm Garm are 2 separate phenomenons. Poaqs dont swear by the destruction of US but they do actively try to destroy India and all that Indians hold dear. We cant force the comparison between Pumpkin and Watermelon though both might appears some what similar. There are many things to emulate USA in force projection and many thing to avoid. India have to find "local" solution/ way of dealing with Poaq problem which may constitutes from freeing 2.3 provinces from Poakjabi domination to reducing Poakarmy and managing Poakroach(population) "nafri".

[shiv]

And you can make your points without disparaging unknowns. That would be more efffective.

Really? And be warned for getting personal? Please let me decide what is more effective.

[RamaY]

if US is all so mighty and powerful and can make Pak dance...why is it still bleeding in Afg?

Because they prefer that to killing the rabid dog. They are not going against Pakis in all spheres of influence as they want to keep it alive to hold-down India. That is what giving space for Paki perfidy.

If and when US makes the decision to let go of Pakistan from their alliance, Pakis will end up paying dearly. The current tussle between US and PRC gives two outcomes.
- A smooth transfer of control - assumes PRC is a larger non-state actor of US in asia; same as PRC:Pakis; Pakis:Good-Taliban and so on. No benefit to India.
- Another partition of Pakistan - Baluchistan will be snatched away from Pakis to hold on to sea-lanes, while conceding the land routes to PRC. Moderate benefit to India.

Unless PoK is taken away from Pakistan there is no way to contain Pakis in Indian hands of hard love and deter PRC making alliances with historical satraps of India.

[ramana]

And you can make your points without disparaging unknowns. That would be more efffective.

Really? And be warned for getting personal? Please let me decide what is more effective.

Touche!

I really ment that if you find someone making such statments quote them. Right now I dont know who you are pisking. Now rajanb is bandwagoning.

Any way your choice.

[ramana]

RamaY, Geelani, the chief Hurrirat, has told Hina Khar that he intends to extend his campaign to PoK also. Shows the US origins of Hurrirat to Raphael's handiwork in 1990s.

--

The Pakis as they exist are a pivot for West against Central Asia, Iran, PRC and India. However they chose to focus on India as their main thrust.

PRC is trying to seize the pivot away from West due to : India and Uighers.

Iran is also trying to seize the pivot as you can see by the recent 10% visits.

India is ignoring the pivot. Sort of 'benign neglect." Anything else will rally/centralize the forces inside TSP.

[shiv]

Right now I dont know who you are pisking.

What does that mean?

[rajanb]

Shiv,

In contrast i will be grateful if you or anyone else could point me to a thread in which the four terrorists killed by the security forces in Kashmir yesterday was recorded.

If you found that news items then you should post in the J&K news thread instead of waiting for someone else to do it. We all are news gatherers and not bhadralok.

And you can make your points without disparaging unknowns. That would be more efffective.

Again rajanb,
Who is saying US is tough? Please make your points without reference to any members whom you cant identify.

Ramana,

My post wasn't against any specific individual. But a observation on people in the online world and the real world who think the yanquis are tough. With whom I debate these points.

All of us are entitled to our own povs.

Cheers

[rajanb]

I really ment that if you find someone making such statments quote them. Right now I dont know who you are pisking. Now rajanb is bandwagoning.

Any way your choice.

Ramana,

Pray explain to be what you mean by "bandwagoning".

Alas, a day w/o learning something new, is a wasted day in my finite life. Forgive me for my ignorance.

[ramana]

I felt you were posting in same vein as shiv. Hence the term bandwagoing. It would remove the misperception if you had made some reference to whom your post was addressing. I thought it was addressed to some unknown forum members. Guess not based on your above clarification.

Carry on.

[Gus]

Because they prefer that to killing the rabid dog. They are not going against Pakis in all spheres of influence as they want to keep it alive to hold-down India.

I disagree. "Keeping India down" is not a policy that is worth american lives, for the US admin (money maybe...that they can just print. but not lives). If they are ok with having their people killed for this objective of keeping India down..or whatever reason..then that is no different from Indian behavior. Given American military supremacy and relative insularity from pak overt retaliation on their homeland...it is the khan who is the most WKK of them all. They don't hit where it matters. They too grin and bear it.

[Hari Seldon]

Hmmph. So bad unkil is actually sad sack unkil when it comes to dealing with pokistan. So what's new?

Sure, unkil is a marketing guru, owns the big pulpits, the big awards, the big monies and all - so is able to spin yarns regarding its own heroics and greatness. That much is pretty much obvious. And some SDREs, BRFites even get taken in. OK. So what? Been there, done that when I was fresh off the boat in massaland myself. Have learned and grown since. People will slowly but surely learn, grow up and move on, hopefully.

Is there a new point to the overdrive on here today...just curious only.

[sanjeevpunj]

Way back in March, this cheif guest non-state actor of Pakistan said Pak will have to fight war with India: Hafiz Saeed ET Bureau Mar 2, 2010, 12.00am IST
The Amir of the Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD), Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, who continues to enjoy the protection of Pakistani establishment has said that Islamabad will have to "fight a war at all costs" if New Delhi is not prepared to hold talks."India wants war... If India is not prepared to hold talks, Pakistan will have to fight a war at all costs," Saeed said in an interview to a Pakistani news channel.
Source:http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... ai-attacks

^^^I feel he was used effectively by Pakistan to convey that they want talks, and not war, but they tried to show that it is India who wants war.S M Krishna has been pursuing a policy of wait and watch for a very long time and it is as dud as a dud scud.

India, after Rabbani's visit, seems to have gone soft again on Pakistan.Sharmila Ravinder said in her blog-

fromhttp://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... ani-effectThere has been more talk about Hina Rabbani’s Hermes Birkin bag, her Roberto Cavalli shades, her outfits, her pearls and her charming looks than anything else this week. For one who is attempting to be enlightened by the fourth estate to know what the purpose of Rabanni’s visit really was would be left scratching his head.

Pakistan is buying time, and GOI is selling it.The deal with Hina was swept under the carpet, she walked away with EU package. Unkil didnt give her,so now through India they got EU package! These people are just using India, and we keep ignoring.

SM Krishna says:I reaffirmed India's desire to work with Pakistan to reduce the trust deficit and move forward in a friendly manner. I conveyed that India desires a stable and prosperous Pakistan, acting as a bulwark against terrorism, and at peace with itself and with its neighbours.Source:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/SM-Krishna

You see how strange it is,we desire a stable and prosperous Pakistan but it keeps putting us in difficulties at every step we take towards becoming a globally accepted power.It should be we who makes them kneel, and not they who make us kneel.If India is peaceful first, then these countries around India-Pakistan and Bangladesh will also benefit consequently. India is the most important country in the region in many many ways.We just keep underestimating ourselves.

[ramana]

While commenting on Hina Rabbani's fashion accourtments no one commented on SM Krishna and his sartorial induglences.

One non-entity talking to another. And AKA muzzles the service chiefs for this!

[Lalmohan]

so if india says to EU (who exactly in the EU?) give money to pakistan, then the EU (currently busy bailing out its member states i.e. angela merkel) is going to give money to pakistan when america and china are hesitating?
lets wait until it is announced before we condemn GOI

[rajanb]

I felt you were posting in same vein as shiv. Hence the term bandwagoing. It would remove the misperception if you had made some reference to whom your post was addressing. I thought it was addressed to some unknown forum members. Guess not based on your above clarification.

Carry on.

Thanks Ramana.

I like Shiv's attitude. He doesn't pull back any punches!

[rajanb]

so if india says to EU (who exactly in the EU?) give money to pakistan, then the EU (currently busy bailing out its member states i.e. angela merkel) is going to give money to pakistan when america and china are hesitating?
lets wait until it is announced before we condemn GOI

Correct.

It is laughable that she comes to town wearing $900 shoes from a brand I didn't know. Pardon my ignorance. But if it is a brand I do not know about, it sure isn't worth the money. (hats off to the news channels who are so clued in to sartorial brands. My unsolicited advice is be clued into things that matter, not tripe.)

And she pays Rs7,500 as taxes?

And if she has told the EU that we don't have any objections then the EU have to consider three things:

Can they afford it?

Or will we torpedo it at the last moment?

Or would they rather have money from us for all the defence goodies we want to buy?

Look at what is happening. The Paquis, after a long while have had to take their eyes off their eastern border. The TSPA is getting sucked into their geography of strategic depth.

Add to that the shennanigans of the Uighur Paki trained rebels. And the Paqui economic plight. Running to their deep ocean, higher than the Everest friends for a thumb suck. Going around to the Saudis, iranis and even claiming that history binds them to the buddhists of Thailand.

My opinion: There is desperation in their ranks and it is showing. And the visit that Pasha made to Unkil.....less said the better...for the Paquis.

So Sanjeev, no need listening to what Hina says. Read this:

http://www.inewsone.com/2011/08/03/indi ... -let/66811

New Delhi, Aug 3 (IANS) A week after talks with Pakistan, India Wednesday said it wanted to have ‘constructive relations’ with its neighbour, but Islamabad must ensure ‘an environment free from terror’ and take ‘credible’ action against 26/11 terrorists and Jamaat-ud-Dawa chief Hafiz Saeed.

Am I surprised that Hina did not mention it? Besides chai biskoot, these are opportunities for propaganda too.

[darshhan]

As far as WKKism goes USA is definitely as WKK as India is if not more.Come to think of it Pakistani Army and ISI is directly responsible of murdering more than 1600 US soldiers in Afghanistan as part of Operation Enduring Freedom.The very same agencies are also responsible for 9/11 and other terrorist attacks on American interests.

In response to these attacks what has US done ? Some drone strikes on frontier areas targeting the pashtun elements of Taliban and haqqani factions and some Al qaeda wannabes.All these are nothing but just pawns in the hands of ISI and Paki Army(includes Bin Laden).

Till date to my knowledge US has not killed a single ISI or Paki Army officer/personnel.Infact ISI chief shuja pasha was recently in USA to negotiate the military aid being given to Pakis.Just imagine the WKKism on the part of US.The man who is largely responsible for murder of so many US soldiers(along with Kiyani) was meeting Top US officials normally without any fear.To give you an analogy , can you imagine head of gestapo heading to washington DC in WW2.

IMO it is time to bury this myth that US conduct is very aggressive wrt Pakis.It is not.

By the way only time someone was really agressive against Pakis , it was in 1971.Since then Pakis have been enjoying their free rides.

[RamaY]

I disagree.

Let us disagree.