"Christian" Fundamentalism in West

[RamaY]

^ This is all good, but christian conversions are a threat to Indian national interests.

If Christ's message is just eat, love and pray then why all these conversions in India? Don't the indigenous culture have christ-like figures in its heritage? Then why this obsession to remain christian by the Indic-christians? If the interest is in message, does it really matter if they pray christ or Dadhichi or Sibi or Vasishta?

If the root-cause of proselytisation in India is western "Christian" fundamentalism, then what is wrong in discussing it? How can we ensure that the western "Christian" fundamentalism doesn't spread to India?

[devesh]

BRF degraded to such a level that somebody can openly say that non-believers of Christianity will burn in hell???

This is increasingly OT. My last comments.

Every faith has consequences for those who fail it. To be condemned to return to the Earth too can be a form of hell. You can believe in Christianity and still burn in hell.

In some cases it took a lot of violence to keep women unclothed. Touchy subject in my native. Touchy subject personally as well.

Some Christians have been in India a lot longer than 400 years.

Vijayanagara Empire was definitely not secular in its actions in Madurai region. It treatment of certain communities to the benefit of Nayak overlords is quite distasteful.

Bji,

You appear violently opposed to conversion, all which you appear to believe is violently coerced. It is clouding all your thought processes. Humbly request you read up the various histories of how Buddhist Kerala turned into Hindu Kerala. I can recommend books if you want. Of course you can label them all as propaganda. It is your choice.

If discrediting Christianity is the way to tackle fundamentalism, you are barking up the wrong tree.

All states must deal with religion. It is too large a part of people lives. The question is how minority thought is approached by the state.

Theo ji,

before you comment on the Vijayanagara behavior in TN, you should first comment on the Muslim treatment of Hindus in TN. you should fist talk about the fanatical behavior of invaders in desecrating temples and destroying Murthis. you should talk about the fact that Sri Rangam was made into a ghost town where the streets were full of weeds, a few years after the Muslims invaded. they tried their best to destroy the Ranganatha mula vigraham, but only quick thinking saved that murthi. they purposefully set up animal slaughtering houses in the Ranganatha temple and stopped all religious services. for several years (i think 20+), Sri Rangam became a ghost town, and Muslims did this on purpose b/c it was a temple town.

anyway, before one gives blanket statements about the "distasteful" behavior of Vijayanagaras, one should fist also see what behavior they were retaliating against.

on a side note, the grand irony is that it was the "Hindu" Vijayanagaras which saved South from Islamic invasions and incubated TN from the destructive influence of Islamic overlords. that helped preserve Tamil without any Urdu/Arabic/Persian influences. but of course, the modern day Periarists never acknowledge this. it was the evil "Hindus" that saved and nurtured Tamil language and culture, while a huge portion of India was getting battered. oh....the irony!!!

[svinayak]

on a side note, the grand irony is that it was the "Hindu" Vijayanagaras which saved South from Islamic invasions and incubated TN from the destructive influence of Islamic overlords. that helped preserve Tamil without any Urdu/Arabic/Persian influences. but of course, the modern day Periarists never acknowledge this. it was the evil "Hindus" that saved and nurtured Tamil language and culture, while a huge portion of India was getting battered. oh....the irony!!!

Actually Hindus saved Christians in India on many occasions. The goan christians were saved by the Hindus in the coastal Karnataka from the torture and oppression by Tipu Sultan.

[brihaspati]

Phillip,
I see the problem at the moment still connected to the inability of the Church to relinquish its dogma, especially about the constructions of the "other" and how to deal with the "other". This is the crucial point where all that Breivik is constructing is coming in.

I have had long discussions with several theologians, and I will not name the Churches . But each time we have come to the same dilemma - as to how to weaken Breivik type positions without actually damaging the very legitimacy of the Church claims - especially where they all converge, and crucially on the question of the "other".

The construction of the "other" is the most problematic aspect of any of the Christian dogma. Surely you realize that it is not about "turning the other cheek" or "forgiveness", which still does not actually deal with the problem of how to construct the image and ascription and hence interaction with - the "other".

Then again, the other crucial aspect that comes up - and which I have represented to many audiences, especially the theologians and academics of religion studies - that trying to crush the so-called "fundamentalists" may actually turn the Christian society towards Islam. The reason for that can only be understood by studying the trends and roots [as well as the political treatment of dissent] of past "fundamentalisms" which led me to conclude that the desire for fundamentalist "course correction" [as the dissenters see it] is part of the consequence of the dogma.

If the desire for such "course correction" is not met, because it is the Churches which brought this situation and expectation in the first place as part of their belief enforcement measures - the Churches themselves will be thrown away. Because alternate philosophical systems have all been "devilized" and demonized, the seekers of religious satisfaction will seek it in more radicalized forms of the Abrahamic - and Islam is an option.

This is why I feel it is so crucial understand the underlying reasons - which are obvious when we go deeper into Church history and its actions or responses.

[Manish_Sharma]

http://apostlethomasindia.wordpress.com/

[devesh]

Theo ji,

I must disagree with your stand that the Western EJ's aren't concerned with SDRE's. that is not true. The more Indians they see in the US, the more Brown people they see on TV Shows and real life in Masa, the more their focus turns toward India and Indians. My present location is Masa doesn't allow me to regularly keep in contact with the EJ's that I knew. But every time that I do talk to them, they don't hold back in telling me that they feel pity for me. one of the guys that I knew even wrote an article in a local newspaper in the Midwest about "Indian brothers not showing interests in the teachings of Christ."

and with Bobby Jindal and Nikki Haley becoming the "new faces" of America, the template is being set for which all brownies are expected to follow. recently, have seen this phenomenon too among the EJ's. they keep harping about BJ and NH and how they are good "role models" for not just Indians in America but the Indian subcontinent too.

the more Indians become visible in US, the more the pressure will be on Indians and India. this might sound narcissistic, but the 'problem' is that Indians become successful without having Latinised names and groveling before the Cross. if we were some poor community living like paupers, it wouldn't matter. but the fact is there are Indians giving interviews on Bloomberg who are CEO's and successful entrepreneurs, Indian women who are psychiatrists who are popular on American Health shows, etc etc. this creates a huge insecurity complex.

1. dark skinned
2. names sound alien
3. don't grovel before Christ and Cross
4. seemingly very successful.

these 4 factors create a powerful fear/insecurity that is solved by imposing the Christian attitude of contempt for the heathens.

[svinayak]

They need normalized Indians
Normalizing all cultures is the goal of the EJ

[brihaspati]

Phillip,

Just to point out what framework of definitions and characterizations I am using which I feel both you and Theo ji have problems with :

Kelstedt and Smidt (1991) define "religious fundamentalism" "as a subgroup within evangelicalism that accepts biblical authority, salvation through Christ, and a commitment to spreading the faith.They defend these beliefs militantly ". Further characterizations are narrow-minded, unwilling to question alternate beliefs, and unable to consider different points of view (English1996; Hunsberger, Alisat, Pancer, and Pratt 1996; Hunsberger, Pratt, and Pancer 1994; McFarland and Warren 1992; Richards1994).

If you see the bolded part - proselytization and the salvation dogma together with biblical authority are key components of what is seen as "fundamentalism" in academic studies.

Altemeyer (1981, 1988) defined right-wing authoritarianism(RWA) as incorporating three attitudinal clusters: authoritarian submission, authoritarian aggression, and conventionalism. Despite its socio-political underpinnings, authoritarianism shares with fundamentalism an unquestioning nature. McHoskey (1996) found a negative correlation between Altemeyer's authoritarian clusters and relativism (the ability to look at situations from differing views). Authoritarians have also registered as unimaginative, lacking self sufficiency, and closed minded on the 16PFscale (Billings, Guastello, and Rieke 1993). RWA and fundamentalism were strongly intercorrelated in several studies (Altemeyer and Hunsberger1992; Hunsberger 1995, 1996; Wylie and Forest 1992).

Studies have shown strong correlations between fundamentalism and measures of Christian orthodoxy (CO;e.g., Altemeyer Hunsberger 1992; Kirkpatrick 1993). Moreover, CO correlates more strongly with fundamentalism (corr=.60 -0.75) than it does with RWA (corr =0.43-0.60; Altemeyer and Hunsberger 1992).

[1]Altemeyer,Bob.1981.Right Wing Authoritarianism Winnipeg: University of Manitoba Press.
[2]Altemeyer, Bob. 1988. Enemies of freedom. Understanding rightwing authoritarianism. San Francisco:Jossey-Bass.
[3]Altemeyer, Bob, and Bruce Hunsberger.1992. Authoritarianism, religious fundamentalism, quest, and prejudice. International Journal for the Psychology of Religion 2:113-33.
[4]English,F. 1996. The lure of fundamentalism. Transactional Analysis Journal 26:23-30.
[5]Hunsberger, Bruce. 1995. Religion and prejudice: The role of religious fundamentalism, quest and right wing authoritarianismJ.ournal of Social Issues 51 (2): 113-29.
[1996]. Religious fundamentalism, rightwing authoritarianism, and hostility in non-Christian religious groups. International Journal for the Psychology of Religion 6:39-49.
[6] Hunsberger, Bruce,M. Pratt, and S.Pancer. 1994. Religious fundamentalism and integrative complexity of thought: A relationship for existential content only? Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 33:335-46.
[7] Hunsberger,Bruce, S. Alisat, S. Pancer,and M. Pratt.1996. Religious fundamentalism and religious doubts: Content, connections,and complexity of thinking. International Journal for the Psychology of Religion 6:201-220.
[8] Lyman, and C.Smidt,1991. Measuring Fundamentalism : Analysis of Different Operational Strategies. Joulrnal for the Scientific Study of' Religion 30:259-78.
[9] Kirkpatrick,Lee. 1993. Fundamentalism, Christian orthodoxy, and intrinsic religious orientation as predictors of discriminatory attitudes. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 32:256-68.
[10] Kellstedt, McHoskey, J. 1996. Authoritarianism and ethical ideology. Journal of Social Psychology 136:709-717.
[11] McFarland, S., and J. Warren.1992. Religious orientations and selective exposure among fundamentalist Christians. Journal for the Scientific Studyof Religion 31:163-74.
[12] Wylie,L.,and J.Forest.1992. Religious fundamentalism rightwing authoritarianism and prejudice. Psychological Reports 71:1291-98.

[Sushupti]

They need normalized Indians
Normalizing all cultures is the goal of the EJ

anylink descrbing what "normalization" means in EJ context.

[Theo_Fidel]

Pity for you is not the same same things as you are invited as well. Trust me SDRE are not invited. Even Hispanics have trouble making the grade. For that matter those with professional degrees from mainstream colleges are not welcome as well. People with degrees from Bible colleges are preferred.
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The blood curdling massacres of the Khilji clan in Madurai are well known. One reason there is no trace/memory of them remaining other than that Sikander Dargah on top of the hill. Good riddance is all one can say. It still bothers me that they were able to march unmolested for 2000 kms. It is said the first raid produce 800 Kuddams of gold treasure that Khilji carted back on 800 horses and elephants. So heavy was it. The Pandian army of 100,000 soldiers was annihilated in the bed of the Cauvery. The river flowed red for months they say as the sky refused to rain.

I am referring to Vijaynagara entering Madurai from a religious point of view. No one said they were evil just not Secular. When they entered they did not recognize the existing Hindu tradition but brought their own. They put themselves at the top of the totem pole. Local communities that had been part of the older existing Hindu tradition were 'reclassified' as being lower down the totem pole. It was the final destruction of the old order. What had been a powerful and wealthy kingdom turned into a permanent thorn in the side of the Vijaynagara kingdom. Local representative repeatedly turned rogue at the urging of the populace. Repeated expeditions were required to keep the majority locals in check. To this day being a Nayak has a certain connotation in communities here. We hold on to our pain looong term.
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Acharya this is OT but,

The question you have to ask yourself is how the majority of the country, 80%+ in many areas, supposedly willingly classified them selves as bottom of the barrel community. In some areas here on the East side of the Ghats, just the Harijan (untouchable) and Praiyan communities alone approach 40%+. Is one to believe they did this willingly and generations put up with it willingly. A lot of blood was shed to make it so and keep it so.

Normalizing Indians is also the purpose of our nation. The day a Tamil can marry through free choice a Gujarati or a Bengali with no reference to caste or creed is the day the dream of India will be realized and our tryst with destiny will be in sight.
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The reason Christian fundamentalist thought is strong is the military and financial power behind it. If India had a world beating(at least short term) type military we too would be able to impose our will on the world despite the obvious problem of blow back. Hindu's living in India may not realize this but there is a strong contingent of proselytizing Hindu groups all over Massaland & even Europe. My local temple is now 10% white. Every November there is a flyer on my door with an invitation for Deepavalli. At least a couple of times a year there is a communal procession down my street. The local Sikh Gurudwara has one as well.
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Bji,

The question to ask is who the fundamentalists want to spread the faith to. It is probably not you.

[svinayak]

Normalizing Indians is also the purpose of our nation. The day a Tamil can marry through free choice a Gujarati or a Bengali with no reference to caste or creed is the day the dream of India will be realized and our tryst with destiny will be in sight.

Indian dont need foreign social engineering. Indians will find their own since we have been around for millenia.
Indians dont need some external western version of corrupt society with no value system to be inside India
This kind of talk is a western arrogance.

This shows the ulterior reason for the conversion - that is a revolution using normatizing bull crap. Indians have seen the foreign bull sh@t for more than 500 years and all these are nothing but mind colonization. You need to decolonize yourself even though you may follow the church.

[ramana]

Normalize or normatize?

[sanjaykumar]

The day a Christian Tamil can marry a white Missouri Christian will be a day of rejoicing, joined as they will be in their common love for Jesus.

[svinayak]

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Acharya this is OT but,

The question you have to ask yourself is how the majority of the country, 80%+ in many areas, supposedly willingly classified them selves as bottom of the barrel community.

This classification is colonial system imposed version. Check out how they did it.

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... _p__110589
None of the ancients used to harp on their birth based community.
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... __p__99507

The confusion of the average Indian about our social structure, culture and tradition is enormous. The root cause is our culture and tradition illiteracy that is quite high in society, especially among our university degree holders. One reason for this is the continuance of the old colonial education in our country even after Independence.�

Kumar is of the view that social science disciplines such as anthropology, history and Indology, apart from the mindset of a large section of educated Indians, are coloured by colonial misinterpretations. This is primarily the motivating factor for writing this book. �Efforts should be made to get our social sciences and education rid of the all pervasive colonial hangover without any delay. The book, written with this perspective in mind, tries to inform about Indian social structures � varna and caste � and the various other aspects of our culture and tradition in the succeeding chapters,� Kumar says.

[svinayak]

They need normalized Indians
Normalizing all cultures is the goal of the EJ

anylink descrbing what "normalization" means in EJ context.

It is normatizing.
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... _p__112309

The need to normatize against a standard may itself prevent the "revolution" from taking off on its own, ie both the elites and the followers cannot conceptualize beyond the macaulayite lifestyle. In fact, the ambiguation which is "useful to the elites” and the "delight of the rabble-rouser" needs a sustained academia/seminary for maintenance. When discrepancies are encountered eg the discovery of heathen native america or heathen india, the discourse automatically shifts to incorporate those at the level of discourse itself (Enlightenment with its binary of sterilized social science and orientalist romanticism). The elites are quite secondary here.

[Theo_Fidel]

I understand normalizing as a way to set common standards for all in a country. The way the constitution does. That way a Mallu can marry can marry a Assamese with relatively low shock to the system. Not a clue what Normatizing is.

P.S. Acharya from your paragraph it appears it is a academic exercise to shift goal posts...
---------------------------------
Achary,

So unless one is told they are low class all is fine. It is the knowledge that is the problem. Similar to the blacks had better 'life' under slavery argument. And sorry, classical Tamil literature at least is replete with community considerations. I've been reading Silla Pathikaram in English recently and it is replete with the stuff. As is the Tamil original.

[svinayak]

Achary,

So unless one is told they are low class all is fine. It is the knowledge that is the problem. Similar to the blacks had better 'life' under slavery argument. And sorry, classical Tamil literature at least is replete with community considerations. I've been reading Silla Pathikaram in English recently and it is replete with the stuff. As is the Tamil original.

This is OT and how the western sociology studies are done on the "natives" and their "human rights" are still very naive and there is long way to go for the world. This entire current Indian system a colonial system and you are talking in the language of the colonial past. This will change and the Indian system will come in with more harmonious social interaction without social class.

[sanjaykumar]

If the constitution is the measure, then how to accept that all men are equal but Christians are more equal than others. Constitutional axioms would imply the banishment of any cults proclaiming the divisibility of a common citizenship.

[Theo_Fidel]

...the Indian system will come in with more harmonious social interaction without social class.

This I can agree with. We see the same end game just not the same path.

IMHO the constitution has already set us on this path. Yes there are problems but the path is substantially correct. We should agree to disagree at this point and let it go.

[sanjaykumar]

I am sorry. But Christians need to demonstrate the inferiority of heathens. Then we can let it go.

[brihaspati]

Theo ji,

Bji,
The question to ask is who the fundamentalists want to spread the faith to. It is probably not you.

You would be surprised. I was once in a palm lined desert paradise of the lands where you are staying now. They kept trying because as I was told - my polemical skills could come in handy. Even houris were unleashed. I am still in touch - and pose as someone sympathetic, but someone too "intellectual" to be formally faithful. Useful to get info.

Phillip ji has already invoked superior authority to rain down fire and brimstone on whoever strays from the straight and the narrow path of not bringing India into this - and there has been remarkable show of solidarity on this between ancient sages from Ayodhya and Macedonian kings! [ friendly teasing - to both - I consider you both as fellow travelers of the particular journey I am on]. So not going into the Pandya rout and the 2000 km stuff - a very plausible explanation exists!

But the key question still remains - the roots of "western fundamentalism" lie in the doctrinal straightjackets. I will post on the Scope controversy and the rise of the "Fundamentalist" dispute in the late 19th century USA - actually that is traced back to UK. But thsi particular "fundamentalism" should illustrate all that I have been harping on, and is an important connector to the current phenomenon.

[svinayak]

We should agree to disagree at this point and let it go.

I cant let it go

[Prem]

Onlee If indians have not deviated from the right path or even learned from Islamists or Great Perfidtain , we wont be lamenting many things ,discussing the funadementalism or its root cause. India and Indians lost lost by single factor of refraining from head chopping competition. We did not acquire the right skill or efficency and stil lags behind the whole wide world.

[Theo_Fidel]

Bji,

Do not partake of the houris. They ain't worth it. The preaching in some Churches is that God will turn the unbelievers heart and like Saul this would be the highest form of conversion. Worth 5 ordinary ones.

You must attract greater interest that I do. While random stranger type groups approach me all the time, the organized fundamental groups in church leave me alone. They are very selective in the Christians they target for internal participation. They tend to have their own prayer groups and pastors. Now that they are not so shy they have even developed a couple of churches in my neighborhood into a large congregations.

Their one great weakness is for the bright bauble waved in front of their nose. They just can't resist it. One Fundamentalist group I know split when one side decided to put graphic pictures of aborted fetuses on the side of a Ryder truck and drive through town and park in front of city hall, etc. The women in the group, some of whom had had miscarriages, decided that was too much and broke out on their own. As with all religion based ideologies, doctrinal purity was impossible. Another group has been going after illegal immigrants recently.

[Muppalla]

Pity for you is not the same same things as you are invited as well. Trust me SDRE are not invited. Even Hispanics have trouble making the grade. For that matter those with professional degrees from mainstream colleges are not welcome as well. People with degrees from Bible colleges are preferred.

If what you are saying is correct then for the low caste converts of India is okay to just say they are Christian though they are more untouchables in the church than in the independent and continuously reforming India. Is it worth to allow this new untouchability for downtrodden Indians just to allow the vengence against their past and alos just for nice feeling?

I am referring to Vijaynagara entering Madurai from a religious point of view. No one said they were evil just not Secular. When they entered they did not recognize the existing Hindu tradition but brought their own. They put themselves at the top of the totem pole. Local communities that had been part of the older existing Hindu tradition were 'reclassified' as being lower down the totem pole. It was the final destruction of the old order. What had been a powerful and wealthy kingdom turned into a permanent thorn in the side of the Vijaynagara kingdom. Local representative repeatedly turned rogue at the urging of the populace. Repeated expeditions were required to keep the majority locals in check. To this day being a Nayak has a certain connotation in communities here. We hold on to our pain looong term.

Vijayanagara empire and Chandra Gupta Maurya empires are not just some empires but they are the doctrines of building great civilizations. In their persuit of saving and building civilization they formed the strategies and in those killing ones own for a larger goal is fine. Read Kautilya again. Instead of looking from a victimhood look from a war/maintaining a kingdom strategy. The way super powers maintained their power gives you the clue.

Another point of importance from history is when the population started looking for other philosophies empires collapsed. Roman empire, Ashoka's empire are primary examples. Vijayanagara emprire had great strategists who know it pretty well to force a particular religious way of life. Highest number of temples were built in that pursuit by Vijayanagara Empire.

The question you have to ask yourself is how the majority of the country, 80%+ in many areas, supposedly willingly classified them selves as bottom of the barrel community. In some areas here on the East side of the Ghats, just the Harijan (untouchable) and Praiyan communities alone approach 40%+. Is one to believe they did this willingly and generations put up with it willingly. A lot of blood was shed to make it so and keep it so.

The supression Vs suppressed argument is easily manipulatable based on the creative-created context The world over in any corner there are suppressed. US lifted a large number of slaves and threw them in Liberia. Indian/Hindu suppressors did not find a Liberia and hence they reached 40%. [Please note that I am not trying to be insensitive. It is a historical fact]. No other society has reformed as much as Indian society has done at various times from stone ages to current west-moulded age. If there is a cruelty factor then the least cruel society is Hindu society. The exxagaration of suppression of downtrodden by upper caste Hindus is a figment of imagination and exxaggerated creation of Christian west for obvious reasons.

Normalizing Indians is also the purpose of our nation. The day a Tamil can marry through free choice a Gujarati or a Bengali with no reference to caste or creed is the day the dream of India will be realized and our tryst with destiny will be in sight.

If the girl likes a boy and vice versa they marry. In such a situation and personal decision is made such marriages are occuring in India. In urban India above said type of marriages also are happening via arranged mode. A boy from remote village in Gujarat searching from a girl from a remote Tamland is impossible and that cannot be a parameter of normalization. Caste of India will live another couple of centuries. India's cultural strenght is in caste. Caste is not a barrier for normalization.

The reason Christian fundamentalist thought is strong is the military and financial power behind it. If India had a world beating(at least short term) type military we too would be able to impose our will on the world despite the obvious problem of blow back. Hindu's living in India may not realize this but there is a strong contingent of proselytizing Hindu groups all over Massaland & even Europe. My local temple is now 10% white. Every November there is a flyer on my door with an invitation for Deepavalli. At least a couple of times a year there is a communal procession down my street. The local Sikh Gurudwara has one as well.

I am sorry to say but you are just exaggerating. I live in a location in massa land where there are more than 50% population in the communities are Indians. There are a total of 21 temples with some of them really huge. I don't get any fliers. Just because the topic of the day is Christian proselytization, you are bringing in equal-equal argument. I lived in east, west, northwest and south. You are just distressed that even in Christian west where you avoided the Takleef of Hindus the folks are celebrating their festivals and you are not able to digest those couple of days a year stuff. Sorry for being blunt.

[brihaspati]

Theo ji,
those were final days of my pchaddigiri - which I completed there [had to move with pchaddiguru from janmabhumi]. My casual chat [I have always been a "mixer"] comments were reported and the ringleaders thought that someone with such acquaintance of Church history and lore must have "God" working inside "subconsciously". It was a matter of onlee formally bringing "Him" out. Houri unleashing, and outright lies and false knowledge of even their own documents and texts and background refs - infuriated me. Look, at desh, my parents took me to "observe" [but never participate in] mass, especially on Christmas, and we would also spend Christmas eve/New Year with my parents friends who just happened to be "Christians" among a lot of other religious origins. My alma mater is a well-known "missionary" school and my best "friends" were "Anglo-Indian" teachers of languages, including the local GV one. Mixing had always been easy for me - but because of my dad's library and discussions/experience on field during my student activist days - had made me rather widely-read and researched in the history of the Abrahamic tradtions - all three of them.

So the debates in one of the UC campuses I was in, increasingly got intense between me and the "ringleaders". This was interpreted as "God" working inside - creating "tension" and "anger" which in due time would change the heart, and greater pressure was mounted. I have rather ran away from over-eager houris all my life and looked at such eagerness with grave suspicion- so the result of this missionary outreach had an exactly opposite effect to that intended. It made my determination to question even the syncretic, easygoing perceptions I had been brought up in - all the more.

This was the first occasion that I got in touch with sociologists and presented my first paper on proselytization [and roundly tongue lashed by pchaddiguru for wasting time on frivolous things away from thesis] and its bi-drectional effects on both the "preacher" and the "preached". This was also the great "milleniaral" madness years - and all around the EJ spectrum was in a ferment. Since I moved from this intoxicating atmosphere after getting the chaddi - I shelved all this for almost 5 years. Onlee in the last 4-5 years I have been forced to revisit it as part of my interests in identity theory models.

With time distance - the emotional reaction has gone away, but the cold assessment of root-causes and mechanisms in the doctrinal framework has only been strengthened. I have already expressed my dissatisfaction with the existing constitutional approach - and you know from my posts that I am a rather extreme proponent of rashtryia "neutrality" proactively rather than passively. Given even quarter of an opportunity I would ruthlessly push for just one identity being recognized by the rashtra - that of the citizen and perhaps biological differences where they are necessary [gender/age/disabilities] - and no compromise at all with any religious leadership who try to come in between.

To Phillip ji's question, and perhaps this answers your pointers too - from my side -I feel that the current methods of engaging the religious loudspeakers, from the rashtryia side - in the west and east - is the wrong method. This legitimizes their authority. Rashtra should talk directly to and address directly the citizen and the common follower and refuse to give any special status to any claims of special religious rights.

But technically and theoretically, the problem lies in that even in framing laws and operational procedures of the day to day life of a society [not all of which can ever be described in any book of law] - we need and we do assume the presence of an underlying set of values. Western ones are based on European Christian ones - even if they now get around as "sikular". This is the path of least resistance - by adopting the values of the majority [which will operate in society any way] and then tweaking them subtly or not-so-subtly to adapt them to changing conditions.

So debates on evolving a common set of values is a crucial step forward - engaging the broad following. Trying to exclude the "fundamentalist" from this values debate is again another side of fundamentalism.

[ramana]

Guys how did this thread turn to discussing India, Hinduism and Vijayanagar kingdom? Are the Kakatiyas going to come also?

How about sticking to topic?

[Pranav]

Guys how did this thread turn to discussing India, Hinduism and Vijayanagar kingdom? Are the Kakatiyas going to come also?

How about sticking to topic?

We are talking about an international phenomenon, it's hard to exclude India from the ambit of discussion.

As regards Breivik, he is more a Neocon than a traditional Christian.

But then Christianity worldwide is getting Neocon-ized, and that is the real story that one should focus on. EJ activities in India should be studied from this perspective.

Perhaps denominations like the Greek Orthodox Church may be exceptions, but they are marginal players.

[devesh]

The day a Christian Tamil can marry a white Missouri Christian will be a day of rejoicing, joined as they will be in their common love for Jesus.

I wish there was a "like" button on BRF for good posts. this basically sums up the the point of the thread.

[Advait]

The day a Christian Tamil can marry a white Missouri Christian will be a day of rejoicing, joined as they will be in their common love for Jesus.

I wish there was a "like" button on BRF for good posts. this basically sums up the the point of the thread.

Like

[Advait]

Guys how did this thread turn to discussing India, Hinduism and Vijayanagar kingdom? Are the Kakatiyas going to come also?

How about sticking to topic?

Actually this shows the typical Xtian behavior, always trying to do == when their kind does bad stuff and strutting their superiority other times.

Theo is a perfect example of an Indian Xtian. Trying to act all concerned about our people and maybe he is, but in the end its clear where his loyalty lies.

[Philip]

Ramanna,should we not to understand Brevik and co.,look towards the Greek and Roman entrance into India,as these were the first "western" invaders/traders?
Guys,please start another thread about EJ activity in India,but spare this thread please for the umpteenth time!

With such a galaxy of worldwide BRites,I am sure they could list out those in their countries who are encouraging and espousing the doctrine of which inspires Brevik and his ilk.This is neccessary because in the case of US EJs/fundas in particular,they are supporting and sponsoring entities within India.As I said before,they need to be exposed and countered.

[Arjun]

As regards Breivik, he is more a Neocon than a traditional Christian.

But then Christianity worldwide is getting Neocon-ized, and that is the real story that one should focus on. EJ activities in India should be studied from this perspective.

Don't see how Breivik can be characterized as a neocon....Neocons, at least as the term is understood in the US, stress on aggressive foreign policy objectives and support interventionism. Breivik was far more concerned with domestic social values than he was with foreign policy - in fact he seems to be arguing for a non-interventionist foreign policy in parts of his 'manifesto'.

You might want to clarify your usage of the term.

[RajeshA]

As regards Breivik, he is more a Neocon than a traditional Christian.

Breivik is an extremist with regards to 'Cultural Protectionism'! In Europe, the Culture is incidentally Christian-based, so Breivik advocates a "Christian-based Cultural Protectionism in Europe"! For other parts of the world, he may advocate a cultural protectionism based on some other religion.

[Pranav]

As regards Breivik, he is more a Neocon than a traditional Christian.

But then Christianity worldwide is getting Neocon-ized, and that is the real story that one should focus on. EJ activities in India should be studied from this perspective.

Don't see how Breivik can be characterized as a neocon....Neocons, at least as the term is understood in the US, stress on aggressive foreign policy objectives and support interventionism. Breivik was far more concerned with domestic social values than he was with foreign policy - in fact he seems to be arguing for a non-interventionist foreign policy in parts of his 'manifesto'.

You might want to clarify your usage of the term.

Neocons use anti-Islamism to justify their policies domestically. Some of that is valid (as in the case of the Paks), but at other times it is propaganda. Strong support of Israel is another characteristic. Breivik has people like Daniel Pipes and Melanie Philips as mentors. He may not embrace all of the Neocon agenda, but his agenda does mesh well with that of the Neocons.

[Arjun]

Neocons use anti-Islamism to justify their policies domestically. Some of that is valid (as in the case of the Paks), but at other times it is propaganda. Strong support of Israel is another characteristic. Breivik has people like Daniel Pipes and Melanie Philips as mentors. He may not embrace all of the Neocon agenda, but his agenda does mesh well with that of the Neocons.

The 'neocon agenda' refers more to the policy of military intervention by the West primarily in Muslim lands - Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, with the avowed aim of 'nation building' and promoting US-style values... There is parallely, a growing movement that is anti-immigration and anti-multiculturalism in the domestic theatre in the West.

Undoubtedly there is a strong element of Islamophobia that runs through both narratives - but I don't believe these two thought processes ought to be conflated. There may be folks who support both of these narratives - ie intervening militarily in Muslim lands abroad + anti Muslim immigration domestically. But there are also a large number of Christian right-wingers who are active supporters of one camp but not of the other.

There is however, an active leftist campaign ongoing now to smear the entire Western right-wing setup which has many different subgroups within it - including the neocons and the anti-multiculturalists, under one broad brush and associate the entire setup with Breivik-type horror.

Breivik was definitely in the anti-multiculturalism camp - & I believe that is how he needs to be represented. Of course there is no denying the pro-Christian and anti-Islam undertones of his belief.

[Pranav]

Undoubtedly there is a strong element of Islamophobia that runs through both narratives - but I don't believe these two thought processes ought to be conflated. There may be folks who support both of these narratives - ie intervening militarily in Muslim lands abroad + anti Muslim immigration domestically. But there are also a large number of Christian right-wingers who are active supporters of one camp but not of the other.

I would say that these camps are allied with each other, and are being supported by the same elites. This Freemasonry business that Breivik was into is another allied camp.

At one stage these elites promoted multiculturalism, through leftist front organizations, because ethnic nationalism was deemed contrary to their internationalist agenda. To some extent that consideration still exists, but now, immigration from Muslim lands may be viewed as a threat.

Let me give an unrelated example - an activist like Angana Chatterji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angana_P._Chatterji) may consider herself a leftist and a feminist, and not as a friend of the Jaish-e-Muhammad. But both are being financed, directly or indirectly, by the ISI.

I would say that most Christian denominations too, especially at the senior administrative levels, should be considered as subservient to the same western elite interests. Of course, an EJ pastor on the ground in a third world country, singing Hallelujah with the natives, may imagine that he is working for Christ. In reality, he is just a useful idiot.

[ramana]

We are talking about an international phenomenon, it's hard to exclude India from the ambit of discussion.

We have off topic thread for that. Lets stick to Philip's request.

Thanks, ramana

[Theo_Fidel]

Weren't the Neocons ex-liberals who hijacked the conservative party towards a active agenda. Breivik was not an active liberal by any means. He may have drifted through liberal circles but only in passing. The neocons are not overtly anti-immigration either. Or even very religious for that matter. Their point was to use US strength before it ebbs to 'remake' the world, as in use it or lose it. Its another matter they had no clue where they were going.

Breivik very definitely knows where he is going. He wants a return to a nonexistent nostalgic past (recent?) where there was no cultural conflict and everyone sang Kumbayah because it is the only song everyone knew.

This is the other thing. Fundamentalist thrive on conflict. They need the other. Breivik wants to end the conflict despite the obvious dichotomy of his actions. He merely wants to kill off the other or send them away.

[Atri]

Christianity is the last shackle on the minds of the europeans.. It is an middle-eastern ideology violently forced on the minds of europeans.. If they truely wish to find their roots again, this last shackle must go as well. Christianity is native to middle east, evolved (in its pristine original form) for life in middle east. NT is merely more civilized and humane form of the OT (if we keep aside the whole "son of god" business).

It was intriguing and amusing to see this guy trying to unshackle himself, but ending up like Hitler, with both his feet in his mouth. And please check the comments to this video as well.. For further details, read this enlightening post by Rudradev ji, long ago.. I will put forth my views on deracination of continental europe after a while.. I need to put my thoughts together..

Lot of water has flown under the bridge from the time I made this comment.

There are few drives behind the development of this mindset of Breivik. Violent Christianization of Scandinavia.

Scandinavia was the last bastion on Non-Abrahmic dharmarthik vyavastha (socio-politico-economic system) in Europe. Its standardization under the aegis of European christianity is indeed one of the sad stories of human history. A story which even modern Scandinavians haven't forgotten. One can hear them speak of this "wound" openly even today when they open up in bar. And this is not limited to older generations, but also in younger people. It is also in Scandinavia where the symbols of earlier Non-Abrahmin dharmaarthik vyavastha are more fervently preserved and stored in public memory and customs as opposed to museums in Roman and Germanic Europe.

I have always likened Scandinavia to the "Shire" of Tolkein's "Middle-Earth" where hobbits live. While the appearance of Scandinavians is far from that of a "hobbit", their nature is much similar to the ones. There is not a single trace of "Viking" left in their behaviour, something which they are both proud and remorseful of. The kind of Viking cauterization brought about by Christianization of Scandinavia have put an end to their "Vijigishu (विजिगिषु)" nature.

However, while they were enterprising lot, they have maintained slightly conservative mindset even today. They have refused to enter European Union as well. Other Scandic countries in EU (like Denmark, Sweden etc) are increasingly talking of putting in passport control at the border. While like other European countries they too suffer from diminishing natality rate. They did not resit much to Hitler and became part of third reich. WIth discovery of oil, they started admitting foreign workers to fill in the deficit in their workforce. In 70's, when Indira Gandhi in her early days refused to allow Indian labour to be part of Scandinavian workforce (which weird since she did not have such reservations against Indian labor in WANA), the deficit was filled in by bringing in labor from Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Arab countries. The inflow of refugees resulting from Afghan war, Gulf war 1 and 2 have been borne by continental europe.

This is the price which Europe has paid for being part of NATO. The humanitarian high ground of "the west" where freedom is valued and defectors from enemy given safe haven, was at the cost of Europe's demographics. While "the west" maintained this "moral high ground", USA have very cleverly kept itself aloof of this migration. While UK and France had colonial past which had allowed movement of residents from colonized part of world, Germany, Scandic and rest of Europe did not. Yet they have faced such huge influx of ROPers as part of the european brotherhood. This has led to rise of anti-immigrant mentality in central and northern Europe.

Europeans have been quite liberal for most of post 1993 era. But this is just one side of the story. There are certain questions which Europeans have been unable to answer. This is where India has found solution in form of Caste system. Caste enables "staged" assimilation of foreigners into Indian genepool. While this has not been 100% successful all the time, in absence of foreign pressure, given the time, the systems assimilates and Indianizes the foreign genes and ideas. however, I digress.

The demographic threat faced by Europe as whole is very real. In rural parts of continental Europe, there is a strong anti-Islamic sentiment prevalent among white Europeans (along with similar Sinophobia amply displayed).

As said earlier, amongst all Europeans, Scandic people are still very proud of their pre-Christian culture and civilization. That memory causes them to be quite conservative when it comes to accepting dominion of non-Scandic culture. While the famous nordic model of social security has enabled the free perks for everybody (which was taken advantage of many outsiders including many "desi" janta), Denmark, Sweden etc have stopped the scheme of free education for non-Europeans. They have issued very strict rules to dissuade immigration. The quasi-tribal affiliations which Scandinavian people have towards their country and their folk, makes this social security system workable. This has its own limits, however.

The mentality displayed by Breivik has multiple stimuli.

1. Drive to reinstate the Viking past
2. Drive to maintain Scandic identity in spite of Christian identity.
3. Drive to keep the all pervasive social security system which works fine only when the majority belongs to Scandic tribe. The white European counterparts are acceptable to an extent, but not others.
4. The section of Politicos sucking up to the NATO and making EU pay for west's moral high ground (iron fist in velvet glove) by assimilating more immigrants from shitholes created by UK-USA-French meddling all over the world. These political parties are known as liberal parties in EU. When US is a bad cop, these guys play (or at least force their country to play) good cop routine. Only thing is here, they have to be "good cops" all the time as part of american deal.

All these factors and few more brews the discontent in hearts of Scandinavians in particular and Europeans in general. This is further complicated by the fact that post WW2, the state has taken over the role of "god" in EU. People increasingly expect the same from their governments. this tendency will increase as the functioning of this system depends upon the homogeneity of the "tribe". anythings which dilutes this homogeneity is not welcome.