Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

[Prem Kumar]

The RPG only story is bullshit. I'm willing to bet my left nut that it was not RPGs alone. In due course, things will leak out. Not saying RPGs can't take down choppers, even rifles can in right circumstances. But this was something more.

JEM: its quite possible that an RPG took out the Chinook. There is precedence: Operation Red Wings. In fact, given the supposed dozens of SF actions each month & the proliferation of RPGs with the Taliban, I am surprised at how infrequently this has happened. It must take a lot of intel, fine-tuned procedures for ingress/egress, technology & firepower to keep the SF casualties to a low number.

[anupmisra]

PAF completes production of 26 JF-17 jets

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has completed production of 26 JF-17 Thunder aircraft at Pakistan Aeronautical complex Karma so far during a period of two years.

Thirteen per year? How is that compared to HAL's production rate of say, SU-30MKI? Also, what role and level of "production" did the pakis add to the SKD (semi-knocked down) kits?

[Prem]

BR Mention the study of Poanqjabis VS Punjabis and here cometh the answer. Take it as kuch Such jayda jhooth by Poaqoot.
WASHINGTON DIARY: Myths about Pakistani Punjab —Dr Langur Ejaz

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2011_pg3_6

He was extremely surprised to see that Muslim Punjabis are also divided into castes. He thought — since we claim to be an ummah — there should be no caste division like there is in Hindus or Sikhs. One can see how such a misconception has been created. For this generation of Indian Punjabis who were unable to interact with their counterparts across the border, Muslim is a generic universal term. Such an impression is created by Pakistanis as well by presenting themselves as a universal community. The reality is that Pakistani Punjabis are so much divided into castes that intra-caste marriages are rare. This tells us that most of Pakistani Punjabi Muslims are converts from Hindu lower castes. They have continued the old practices but hypocritically give a misleading misconception to outsiders.
However, he was convinced that most Muslim Punjabis have more than one wife because one of his friends has two or three wives. I told him that in central Punjab most married people have to contend with one wife because besides the cultural pressure, most cannot afford more than one wife. I do not know a single living person in my village or elsewhere in Punjab who has multiple wives. He still does not believe it yet. Probably, the Muslims of India have been demanding of the government that they should have the legal provision to marry up to four wives. Whether Muslims can afford to indulge in multiple wives is a different thing but having multiple wives is very rare in central Punjab.In general, he is right that women in Pakistan are not treated the way they are in East Punjab. I had the same view when I visited East Punjab the first time when I saw the number of women using bicycles and scooters for daily work and chores. In the 60s, there was more liberal space for women in Pakistani Punjab than now; instead of progression Pakistani Punjab has regressed under the heavy pressure of religious fanaticism.
He was extremely surprised to see that Muslim Punjabis are also divided into castes. He thought — since we claim to be an ummah — there should be no caste division like there is in Hindus or Sikhs. One can see how such a misconception has been created. For this generation of Indian Punjabis who were unable to interact with their counterparts across the border, Muslim is a generic universal term. Such an impression is created by Pakistanis as well by presenting themselves as a universal community. The reality is that Pakistani Punjabis are so much divided into castes that intra-caste marriages are rare. This tells us that most of Pakistani Punjabi Muslims are converts from Hindu lower castes. They have continued the old practices but hypocritically give a misleading misconception to outsiders.

Before the partition of 1947 there was no business class of Muslims — in every town, businesses were conducted by Hindus. After walking through Anarkali — there was hardly one Muslim shop in this always busy bazaar before partition — he said, “Oye Muslio, tusin te Laalayaan noon vi piche chad gaey” (O Muslim [shopkeepers], you have even surpassed the seasoned Hindu business class).

[Dipanker]

I beg to differ that US has a hand-off Kashmir policy. I have heard any number of "South Asia experts" recommend, and I thinks thats what is in motion, namely, US does not want to openly talk about Kashmir for fear of hurting one of their munnas domestically, MMS or Kiyani & Co. Quiet diplomacy as they call it. For sure, behind the scenes nudging is going on to facilitate some movement. My own feeling is that US's viewpoint is definetly pro-Paki in that they would like to see the valley in TSP control. That would really give life to their TSP project of 60+ years. So, US strategy is to push all kinds of duplicity from "borders are irrelevant" to self determination in POK etc to get some movement going.

US always had its own agenda separate from Paki's agenda i.e. to push for independent Cashmere. In the current situation US is just exploiting Paki's wetdream that India will deliver concessions on Kashmir. India will play along but deliver nothing to the Pakis, that we know.

My sense is that US is not gung ho about its Cashmere agenda anymore, but I certainly don't see that as support to the Paki agenda. If anything US is actually ceding space to India, Fai's arrest points in that direction.

[Shankas]

http://www.celsias.com/article/beginnin ... ollar-oil/
The Beginning of the End of the Supremacy of the US Dollar in Oil

India’s government has decided to pay for its imports of Iranian oil in rupees.

This seems to be a "Chanakiyan" move by India. A trade dependent Iran and an Aid dependent Afghanistan combined with an Indian airforce base in Tajikistan has ensured complete encirclement of Pakistan.

[svinayak]

This seems to be a "Chanakiyan" move by India. A trade dependent Iran and an Aid dependent Afghanistan combined with an Indian airforce base in Tajikistan has ensured complete encirclement of Pakistan.

India needs a base in Afghanistan and a expeditionary force for the CAS region.

[Nandu]

This seems to be a "Chanakiyan" move by India.

Fix the link please.

Nothing chankian about it. Dollar settlements were becoming impossible because of US sanctions against Iran.

[anupmisra]

As suspected, there were pakis involved. US helicopter crashed in Taliban trap: Afghan official

The Taliban lured US forces into an elaborate trap to shoot down their helicopter, killing 30 American troops in the deadliest such incident of the war, an Afghan official said Monday.

A senior Afghan government official told AFP on condition of anonymity that Taliban commander Qari Tahir lured US forces to the scene by tipping them off that a Taliban meeting was taking place.

He also said four Pakistanis helped Tahir carry out the strike.

"The Taliban knew which route the helicopter would take," he continued....as the helicopter approached, they attacked it with rockets and other modern weapons. It was brought down by multiple shots."

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity as he was not authorised to discuss the issue, also said President Hamid Karzai's US-backed government "thinks" the attack was retaliation for the May killing of Osama bin Laden.

[anupmisra]

India needs a base in Afghanistan and a expeditionary force for the CAS region.

Acharya, supplying that base on a regular basis would be a logistical nightmare. Secondly, a base in Afghanistan would require India to trust the Afghans implicitly on all accounts. In the long run, I believe that Afghans have no love lost for the Hindus. Today they hate the pakis with a passion but tomorrow that could change. Remember, blood will always be thicker than water.

[ranjbe]

No replacements for Onion surveillance planes, given current 'tense' US-Pak relations.Paki defence production secretary.

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... impossible

[ranjbe]

Interesting article by a retired Paki army officer Mehboob Qadir on the aftermath of Babri Masjid demolition in Pakistan (Lahore) where mobs destroyed temples, churches and gurudwaras. They were aided and abetted by the rulers of Punjab at that time, the Sharif brothers. The author says that minorities in Pakiland have lived in fear since then.

After this incident, these minorities began to display an unprecedented belligerence mainly out of desperation and unfortunate state apathy. In this fetid drama, the Sharifs of the time and some of their odious camp followers played a despicably major role. They gave the call for a general strike without laying down its parameters. It was an obvious conclusion that angry mobs would threaten minority lives, property and places of worship. No safeguards were taken at the state level, which was a tacit signal of the approval of such ugly mischief. The government of the day clearly and criminally colluded with the mobsters and failed in its primary duty towards the minorities.

And Pakis have the gall to talk about Modi!

LINK

[Nandu]

Indepth story on those Chechen terrorists killed by Pakis in Quetta. (Video was posted here). Turns out, they were neither Chechen, nor terrorists.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/fe ... 74942.html

[A_Gupta]

The reality is that Pakistani Punjabis are so much divided into castes that intra-caste marriages are rare. This tells us that most of Pakistani Punjabi Muslims are converts from Hindu lower castes. They have continued the old practices but hypocritically give a misleading misconception to outsiders.

But as far as I know, north Indian Hindu lower castes do not have the practice of first-cousin marriage. Or do they?

Further note:

He thought Pakistani Punjab was a bit more prosperous than its Indian counterpart. I had the same feeling during my half a dozen trips to East Punjab; West Punjab is much more industrialised and commercialised than its counterpart.

PPS: compare and contrast with Shiv on the previous page:

Pakjab also has 50-70% poverty and illiteracy.

[arun]

X Posted from the Pakistani Economic Stress Watch thread.

The Railways of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan records “progress” in that nations headlong (d)evolution to 570 AD.

Passenger and freight capacity levels of Pakistan Railways have “progressed” to the levels that existed in 1955 :

Deteriorating PR crisis Only 102 engines for 153 trains

Moayyed Jafri
Wednesday, August 10, 2011

LAHORE: The Pakistan Railways (PR) has only 102 engines to run 153 trains, …………………………..

With the current strength of trains and locomotives, the Pakistan Railways will carry almost the same number of passengers and less freight in 2011 as it did in 1955 while Pakistanís population has increased seven times since then.

The News

[ramana]

Eijaz is truly langur for that article. The poor Pak elite converted as they had no choice during the Mameluke(slave) and Mughal interlude. The cousin marriages were to ape the Arabs.

They still preserve the Hindu traditions covertly.

[chetak]

Interesting article by a retired Paki army officer Mehboob Qadir on the aftermath of Babri Masjid demolition in Pakistan (Lahore) where mobs destroyed temples, churches and gurudwaras. They were aided and abetted by the rulers of Punjab at that time, the Sharif brothers. The author says that minorities in Pakiland have lived in fear since then.

After this incident, these minorities began to display an unprecedented belligerence mainly out of desperation and unfortunate state apathy. In this fetid drama, the Sharifs of the time and some of their odious camp followers played a despicably major role. They gave the call for a general strike without laying down its parameters. It was an obvious conclusion that angry mobs would threaten minority lives, property and places of worship. No safeguards were taken at the state level, which was a tacit signal of the approval of such ugly mischief. The government of the day clearly and criminally colluded with the mobsters and failed in its primary duty towards the minorities.

And Pakis have the gall to talk about Modi!

[url=http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2011_pg3_4[/url]

You have to understand that all the talk of Modi is because their greatest fear and nightmare came true in Gujarat. No gurantee that it will not repeat given the right triggers. No government of any ideological hue can or indeed will prevent this. The NAC bill is a insidious move to limit majority options using dubious constitutional means.

A resurgent and now vengeful majority intent on teaching them a lasting lesson is something that they have been wary about since long before partition days. That by itself was suerly one of the visceral driving forces behind the demand for porkistan. A safe haven that they psychologically craved after centuries of oppressing the peaceful natives.

Their feared reaction of the majority is the very same tool that they themselves have successfully employed for centuries and still think that they have a god given a patent on.

[arun]

Text of Steve Colls interview by Dawn:

‘The Pakistani government sanctioned drone attacks’

[shiv]

The reality is that Pakistani Punjabis are so much divided into castes that intra-caste marriages are rare. This tells us that most of Pakistani Punjabi Muslims are converts from Hindu lower castes. They have continued the old practices but hypocritically give a misleading misconception to outsiders.

But as far as I know, north Indian Hindu lower castes do not have the practice of first-cousin marriage. Or do they?

I think this Paki is talking nonsense without knowing what has happned in India. Gandhi set the tone for a dilution and sidelining of caste discrimination. That has been implemented as national policy in India and the vast majority of educated Indians today have grown up in a system that does not discriminate caste. This idiot Paki (Ejaz Haider?) has no idea about this and is making up his own theories.

Pakistani attitudes towards caste remain as India was in 1947. India has moved on. Not Pakistan. Pakistani authors are becoming less and less relevant as analysts and only serve as a window into current Pakistani society.

[A_Gupta]

Apologies if this was previously posted:
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?277951

Ejaz Haider is no fool. He wrote what prima facie appears to be an ‘investigative’ op-ed piece, but sticking to his basic charge against Tharoor that perception formation is important, he has broad-brushed the Shiite Hazara people, literally as Iran’s fifth column in Pakistan. In a ruthless but crude manner a target seems to have been painted on the back of the Hazaras — a community, which according to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) has lost over 300 members in targeted killings by jihadists, between 1999 and May 2011.

But Ejaz Haider’s technique here is simple and tried and tested one: paint the genocide of a minority group as a tit-for-tat sectarian warfare and charge the weaker group of getting foreign help. He has written similarly about the Shiite enclave of Upper Kurram Agency, which has been resisting the Taliban onslaught since 2007. In branding the conflict as perennial sectarian battles, he essentially makes a case for the state machinery to not act in defence of the defenceless — a policy that the Pakistan Army has applied in Kurram Agency.

It is actually a quadruple whammy for the persecuted minority communities. First, the state-sponsored terrorists like the LeJ and its assorted incarnations are unleashed on them. Second, the state either takes no action or attacks the victims (e.g. Army airborne attack on Shiite tribes of Kurram Agency in August 2010). Third, it dilutes or pre-empts any national or international sympathy that may appear for the besieged minority populations. Fourth, it creates the spectre of Iranian involvement making the US and allied forces suspicious of, if not outright allergic to, these anti-Taliban groups.

The net result is a perception that the victims have only themselves to blame for their misery, thus justifying and legitimising their slaughter at the hands of Pakistani states’s jihadist assets.

[A_Gupta]

Pakistani attitudes towards caste remain as India was in 1947. India has moved on. Not Pakistan. Pakistani authors are becoming less and less relevant as analysts and only serve as a window into current Pakistani society.

Maybe. The point I was trying to make that it is interesting that Pakjabis have supposedly kept marriage within the "caste" from their pre-Muslim days but adopted first-cousin marriage via Islamic influences.

[shiv]

Pakjab cannot be compared with Indian Punjab in prosperity. The India that Ejaz Haider describes is teh view a typical uninformed Canadian-Indian who lived in a RAPE home RAPE areas - "Bahria" - Bahria is a Pakistan Navy enterprise and I am not surprised they get 24x7 electricity. You live in a RAPE home and RAPE surroundings you wiil believe that even US of A is "poor". Here is another foolish misled Indian from Canada who is being quoted by a desperate Paki because the desperate Paki feels good about what the misled Indian bleats.

[Airavat]

Being a parochial Gujju bhai from Siddhraj Jaisingh's Karnavati, I always get confused about places south of the Vindhyas. But I have always wondered how it was possible for a Jai Singh to attack a Shivaji in vassalage of an Aurangzeb, but not for his ancestors to go to the aid of Vijayanagar when the Bahmani sultanats were razing it to the ground.

There is a history thread for such questions, but just as an FYI you didn't have to go so far to the north.....there were Hindu chieftains from southern India who were part of the Muslim army that razed Vijayanagar! Read more here:

The Aravidu Dynasty of Vijayanagar

Further, it tells us that Akbar, while engaged in conquering the Deccan sultanates sent envoys to befriend Hindu Vijayanagar against his Deccani Muslim enemies!

Back on topic: Drone strike kills 7

A US drone fired two missiles, destroying a vehicle and a compound near Miranshah, the main town in North Waziristan tribal district, along the Afghan border. "At least seven militants were killed in the drone strike. All of them were Haqqani's men," a Pakistani security official in Miranshah told AFP.

[shiv]

Pakistani attitudes towards caste remain as India was in 1947. India has moved on. Not Pakistan. Pakistani authors are becoming less and less relevant as analysts and only serve as a window into current Pakistani society.

Maybe. The point I was trying to make that it is interesting that Pakjabis have supposedly kept marriage within the "caste" from their pre-Muslim days but adopted first-cousin marriage via Islamic influences.

That is actually a very interesting sociological commentary. Both "caste" and cousin marriages have two things in common
1. They are both discriminatory in a sense they they seek to eliminate certain groups from joining one's own "bloodline"
2. They are both measures that seek to keep wealth within a small group.

Both concepts are alien to the idea of "equality of all humans" and "equal opportunity". In a sense I think that the rhetoric of Islam is "egalitarian" is bullshit just like its not a religion of peace. If you leave aside the burqa of islam that Pakistanis sought to wear, you get an old fashioned unequal, misogynist society. They funniest part for me is that Pakistanis are able to find quotes from the quran and hadiths to support inequalities in their societies - in a way showing up all the nonsense and inequality that an be supported using Islam as an excuse. Pakis are funny. They have managed to squeeze, distil and adopt the worst out of old Indian society and out of Islam and they are proud of it. Just out of spite for Hindu India.

[Prem]

Pakistani attitudes towards caste remain as India was in 1947. India has moved on. Not Pakistan. Pakistani authors are becoming less and less relevant as analysts and only serve as a window into current Pakistani society.

Maybe. The point I was trying to make that it is interesting that Pakjabis have supposedly kept marriage within the "caste" from their pre-Muslim days but adopted first-cousin marriage via Islamic influences.

All the time, Poaqooters have been claiming to come into existence from the droppings of Arabs, Persians or Turkash. The author must be aware of the fact that even the Bhangis living the hellish life in Pakistan wont convert to keep their sense of belonging and loyality to ancient civilization. They are example in making sacrifices and strength of spirit.
IMHO, it is good thing that they practice inbreeding and pass on retardnes from generation to generation. Every passing year, this practice bring them closer to animal kingdom in moral, mental, social and spiritual sense and becoming living example of human waste. Lets thank the Indian leades calling off Ali Djinnah's bluff and exposed the hoax for whole world to see.

[shiv]

On the topic of the US wanting to see Cashmeer in Pakistani hands the question that comes to mind is "Why would the US want to see Cashmere in Paki hands?" What would the US stand to gain by that?

I don't think the US originally (1950-early 60s) considered this India-Pakistan dispute as significant. The Cashmere "dispute" exists because Pakistan disputes Cashmere. Any American who was "elderly and wise" in 1950 - say 65 years old, would recall that India had been a mass of states who disputed each other's borders and that the British subdued and subjugated all these petty squabblers and made a nation. When the British left the petty squabbling started again - with two states coming immediately after the Brits left and instantly going to war over territory. For a USA that had fought and won wars in Europe and the far East - this petty squabble over Cashmere was an minor local dispute whose resolution would make no difference to the global scheme of things because the two states India an Pakistan were so backward and insignificant.

The US was looking for allies in its "great game" of checking communism and the Soviet empire and Pakistan grabbed the opportunity with both hands in the 1950s. Please revisit that Liaqat Ali Khan interview linked on Arun Gupta's blog. I think the piskological significance of the term "Great game" is easily missed. The "Real game" - the "Great" game was what big boy played. Small petty regional disputes were not part of the "Great" game unless they could be exploited to get allies or dominate over the power of one's adversary.

Right at the time of Liaqat Ali Khan the Pakis bandwagoned with the US saying "We are firmly on your side", even as they painted the socialist non aligned Nehru as a Soviet stooge. The pouring of hundreds of F-86 Sabres into Pakistan in the late 1950s was to shore up an "ally" who promised to be part of the anti-Communist crusade. At that time the US as still smarting from the Korean war which left the Korea question unresolved. Communism had not been defeated and would require global level forces and alliance. But despite all the arming of Pakistan the US had made no firm commitment about handing over Cashmere and the question of "keeping India down" probably did not seem particularly urgent or relevant in the late 1950s. The US in fact hedged its bets in many ways. India received a nuclear reactor as part of "Atoms for Peace", US planes came into India when Nehru asked for help in 1962 and the CIA had India cooperation in placing a nuclear powered monitoring device in the Himalayas to snoop on the Chinese.

I doubt if the US actually expected Ayub Khan to launch his useless 1965 war - but Pakistan was actually sanctioned at that time. That was when Pakistan started acquiring arms from other sources as well. The Chinese pitched in as did some ummah nations. IIRC the US actually blocked the sale of used German F-86 Sabres to Pakistan.

But the point I want to make was that many of the US's actions in the post 1950s years were actions of anxiety and dhoti shivering, not actions of strength - which is what they appeared to be to us weakling cowardly Yindoos. The US was fighting rearguard action to protect the US from Communism which appeared to be gaining strength. The thoughtless dumping of arms into a perfidious Pakistan was not a well calculated chess move - it was a reaction to communist advances where the US sought any goddam ch**t as an ally if he made the right noises. The US sort of backed out from arming Pakistan after 1965 - but just 3-4 years later the US found itself in another big mess in Vietnam. It was at this time that the US did another dhoti shivering reactive act that they are paying for today.

Pakistan had moved closer to China when US embargos kicked in after 1965. Nixon/Kissinger - in their fear of Communism used Pakistani good offiices" to become friends with China and reduce the Communist threat that the US faced. The Pakistan China alliance in the 1960s was purely anti-India. It had nothing to do with China global aspirations. The US joined that alliance - not to oppose India but to neutralise a Chinese communist threat. This was a dhoti shivering reactive act to the US's losing situation in Vietnam and not the great Chankian chess move we see.

Then Pakistan went and botched things again in 1971. Embargos kicked in but the US was more concerned about Vietnam, and a few years later they were out. The US was shamed. Communism had won. That set the stage for using Afghanistan and Pakistan once again to defeat communism. Once again the US who ha already selected a ch**tiya nation as an ally just because she offered herself - used that same Pakistan again to shore up, train and arm Islamic fundamentalists to defeat the USSR. The USSR folded up after that What freedom and democracy could not do was done with the help of religion.

The US has armed, funded and used Pakistan every time the US dhoti has shivered. The Cashmere question has never been relevant to US actions. That may have been the US's mistake - but a mistake out of weakness rather than strength. In all the years that the US used Pakistani assistance, the US never realised that Pakistan was willing to commit suicide over Cashmere. The US's "urgent requirement for Pakistani help" was always more important than Pakistan's "urgent need for Cashmere". So Pakistan was always playing a double game of helping the US and committing suicide fighting India. The US never figured out what Pakistan was doing to itself.

Now suddenly the US finds that the Pakistan army is not in control, the Pakistani state is decrepit and shrunken, the US is still in trouble and that trouble comes from Pakistan itself and the US is now trying to use Pakistan against itself.

The US can
1. Get the hell out and lick its wounds and lose echandee
2. Fight a war with India to give Cashmere to Pakistan (Iraq, Af-Pak, Iran and now India? ). Not possible, but OT here
3. Make the Paki fight India over Cashmere and lose leading to total loss of US influece as the Paki army gets butt-kicked.
4. Try and stop all conflict in Pakistan other than the one conflict (fighting Al Qaeda and taliban) that the US is interested in fighting.

Whichever way I look at it - a war over Cashmere will be disastrous for US interests and the Paki army.

[SSridhar]

Now, PLA is along the Rajasthan border too

Pakistan and China have launched joint war games barely 25 km from the international border along Jaisalmer-Bikaner districts of Rajasthan.

The brigade-level military exercise by the People's Liberation Army's 101 Engineering regiment began last week and will continue for one month. {Doesn't it look too long ? Will the Chinese go back or stay put ?} Independent sources said this was the first time that Chinese troops were detected along India's western border.

According to information from intelligence sources, China is extending all possible help to Pakistan militarily. After assisting in oil and gas exploration in Pakistan, China is now working in close cooperation with it in India's western sector, providing Pakistan with tank upgrade technology and unmanned air vehicles (UAVs).

Officials contacted at the Army headquarters in New Delhi said they had "no specific information" about such an exercise. Another official said Pakistan Rangers conduct annual exercises but there was no information about the ongoing operations.

An intelligence source said the PLA's engineering battalion along with Pakistani soldiers are on an exercise on how to take out tanks and other heavy military vehicles from marshy areas, and how to make way for the infantry by constructing bridges.

The places where these operations are on are Suryaan and Chor, near Sem Nala in Rahimiyaar Khan in Pakistan, adjoining Tanot-Kishangarh area along Jaisalmer. There is an entire brigade of China for the military exercise there.

The source also said that the Chinese battalion along with Pakistan forces are practicing formations and operations along Bikaner district of Rajasthan. One officer, who refused to indentify himself since he is not authorized to speak, said the Chinese army along India's western border in Pakistan in the name of military exercise is "really surprising, and could prove strategically dangerous for India".

"China under the garb of military exercise has reached India's western border. This can't but be a matter of concern for us," he said.

[SSridhar]

The presence of the PLA in Pakistan along the Rajasthan border, along with their presence in Balawaristan and along the LoC already, shows that while we are engaged in the American-TSP relationship, the Chinese are beginning to creep into Pakistan along the entire India-Pakistan border. PA has abdicated to PLA, it seems now. PLA wants to surround India on the west and the East even while mounting diplomatic pressure on us in various ways and widening the trade with us. Along with that report also comes the news of the ISI activating terror training camps in PoK with about 2500 terrorists as our Dy. Home Minister has said in Parliament. Pakistan believes that PLA would be the effective deterrent, not the Nasr, against Cold Start. The advice Gilani gave Karzai of moving over to RMB rather than Dollar-denominated trade also needs to be remembered. It shows that Pakistani strategy, in collaboration with PRC, is to break away from the US as soon as practically feasible. If Taliban eventually take over power in Afghanistan, which looks certain to me now (only a matter of time), then the Americans will be driven out of Afghanistan without being able to exert any influence anymore. A vast stretch from Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan will come under Chinese influence encircling India even more. It will also deprive India of natural resources especially from CAR countries.

[svinayak]

The presence of the PLA in Pakistan along the Rajasthan border, shows that while we are engaged in the American-TSP relationship, the Chinese are beginning to creep into Pakistan along the entire India-Pakistan border.

THis could be a PLA- Pak-...US ARMY backed game since CENTCOM and NATO are in the same region = hardly 300 miles from that area

[A_Gupta]

From March, but relevant - Sino-Pak stuff:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhe4r0 ... cises_news

[shiv]

J-10s were in Pakistan a few months ago. We saw pics on here and some pics in Vayu.

[A_Gupta]

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/di ... id=8296929

Research Article
CONSANGUINEOUS MARRIAGES IN AFGHANISTAN

* Article author query
* saify k [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
* saadat m [PubMed] [Google Scholar]

KHYBER SAIFYa1 and MOSTAFA SAADATa1

a1 Department of Biology, College of Sciences, Shiraz University, Shiraz, Iran

Summary

The present cross-sectional study was done in order to illustrate the prevalence and types of consanguineous marriages among Afghanistan populations. Data on types of marriages were collected using a simple questionnaire. The total number of couples in the study was 7140 from the following provinces: Badakhshan, Baghlan, Balkh, Bamyan, Kabul, Kunduz, Samangan and Takhar. Consanguineous marriages were classified by the degree of relationship between couples: double first cousins, first cousins, first cousins once removed, second cousins and beyond second cousins. The coefficient of inbreeding (F) was calculated for each couple and the mean coefficient of inbreeding (α) estimated for each population. The proportion of consanguineous marriages in the country was 46.2%, ranging from 38.2% in Kabul province to 51.2% in Bamyan province. The equivalent mean inbreeding coefficient (α) was 0.0277, and ranged from 0.0221 to 0.0293 in these two regions. There were significant differences between provinces for frequencies of different types of marriages (p<0.001). First cousin marriages (27.8%) were the most common type of consanguineous marriages, followed by double first cousin (6.9%), second cousin (5.8%), beyond second cousin (3.9%) and first cousin once removed (1.8%). There were significant differences between ethnic groups for the types of marriages (χ2=177.6, df=25, p<0.001). Tajiks (Soni) and Turkmens (also Pashtuns) showed the lowest (α=0.0250) and highest (α=0.0297) mean inbreeding coefficients, respectively, among the ethnic groups in Afghanistan. The study shows that Afghanistan's populations, like other Islamic populations, have a high level of consanguinity.

First cousin = common grandparent.
Second cousin = common greatgrandparent
Double first cousin = two common grandparents?
First cousin once removed = child of a first cousin

[Altair]

The presence of the PLA in Pakistan along the Rajasthan border, along with their presence in Balawaristan and along the LoC already, shows that while we are engaged in the American-TSP relationship, the Chinese are beginning to creep into Pakistan along the entire India-Pakistan border. PA has abdicated to PLA, it seems now. PLA wants to surround India on the west and the East even while mounting diplomatic pressure on us in various ways and widening the trade with us. Along with that report also comes the news of the ISI activating terror training camps in PoK with about 2500 terrorists as our Dy. Home Minister has said in Parliament. Pakistan believes that PLA would be the effective deterrent, not the Nasr, against Cold Start. The advice Gilani gave Karzai of moving over to RMB rather than Dollar-denominated trade also needs to be remembered. It shows that Pakistani strategy, in collaboration with PRC, is to break away from the US as soon as practically feasible. If Taliban eventually take over power in Afghanistan, which looks certain to me now (only a matter of time), then the Americans will be driven out of Afghanistan without being able to exert any influence anymore. A vast stretch from Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan will come under Chinese influence encircling India even more. It will also deprive India of natural resources especially from CAR countries.

SS
Would that scenario bring US towards India? Either way India has no option but to engage PLA very soon. China is also suffering from rising inflation,unemployment and dipping economic growth.A war with India will jump-start their ailing arms industries which have been suffering for some time due to lack of fulfilling orders. It will also solve their unemployment problems for some time. PA on the other hand can concentrate in core areas of their expertise namely genocide and murder.Tough times ahead for India
I recommend we involve Russia both diplomatically and militarily sooner than later to form an alliance.
Altair

[shiv]

In a previous discussion on BRF I had asked why we would worry about Chinese troops in Pakistan when we did not worry about US forces and US advisors in Pakistan.

At least one reply I got was that the US can be trusted but not China. But then why did India pressurise Sri Lanka to disallow a VOA station in SL? How come US troops and forces in Pakistan and a US hero Chuck Yeager flying sorties in an India Pak war make the US "trustworthy" while a mere VOA station is bad for Sri Lanka?

We know the answer to that. The problem is Pakistan. We cannot control what Pakistan does and we have to prepare for whoever the Pakis invite into their land. I personally would not even think about CAR resources as long as the Pakistan problem remains unsolved. In fact it is the Pakistan problem that ensures that CAR resources cannot move East and South. Those resourced were locked away when the Soviets were there. They remained locked away when the Taliban got there. They remain locked away with the US over there, an I predict that they will continue to remain locked away with Chinese troops in the region.

The facts actually hit you in the face if you think about them. None of these foreign forces in Afghanistan have come in peace. they have come as warriors to access resources. And none has succeeded.

If China can sit in Pakistan and make Afghanistan peaceful and access CAR resources I wish them luck. If they attack India will will whup their sorry pork loving asses back to their only child mommies and daddies.

[svinayak]

SS
Would that scenario bring US towards India? Either way India has no option but to engage PLA very soon.
Altair

THis will not happen unless GOTUS has approved it. PLA will not make unilateral move into another country unless it has broad approval from P5

[A_Gupta]

Now suddenly the US finds that the Pakistan army is not in control, the Pakistani state is decrepit and shrunken, the US is still in trouble and that trouble comes from Pakistan itself and the US is now trying to use Pakistan against itself.

In a different context, but probably applicable here in the context of Pakistan as well, some reader of the New York Times reminded us

I believe it was Winston Churchill who said that Americans do the right thing, after they have tried everything else first. I hope he was right. It prevents me from completely giving up hope that at some point sanity will come back....

[rohitvats]

To me, it seems that TSPA is seriously worried about something. Something they feel India is going to do in medium term or being able to do in medium term - over next 5 years. And hence, all these moves. I, for one, don't believe in the theory of them replacing US with China. Replace in what context? But I cannot place a finger on what is it that TSPA is worried about.

May be, they expect US and India to gang-up against TSPA in medium term.....something is amiss.

[gakakkad]

Would that scenario bring US towards India? Either way India has no option but to engage PLA very soon. China is also suffering from rising inflation,unemployment and dipping economic growth.A war with India will jump-start their ailing arms industries which have been suffering for some time due to lack of fulfilling orders. It will also solve their unemployment problems for some time. PA on the other hand can concentrate in core areas of their expertise namely genocide and murder.Tough times ahead for India
I recommend we involve Russia both diplomatically and militarily sooner than later to form an alliance.
Altair

This is a dhoti shivering version of Lahori logic . Getting smacked up by India is not the best way for China to jump start their economy . Their is no way they will take on the smaller yet technologically more advanced Indian forces in the hostile terrain of Indo-China border. It will be a war of attrition. A cruel stalemate. China would be crippled .

[rajanb]

I beg to differ that US has a hand-off Kashmir policy. I have heard any number of "South Asia experts" recommend, and I thinks thats what is in motion, namely, US does not want to openly talk about Kashmir for fear of hurting one of their munnas domestically, MMS or Kiyani & Co. Quiet diplomacy as they call it. For sure, behind the scenes nudging is going on to facilitate some movement. My own feeling is that US's viewpoint is definetly pro-Paki in that they would like to see the valley in TSP control. That would really give life to their TSP project of 60+ years. So, US strategy is to push all kinds of duplicity from "borders are irrelevant" to self determination in POK etc to get some movement going.

Correct. It just occured to me that getting Kashmir for Pakistan could help the US get into the good books of the mango apduls?

But, then the US would land up being on the wrong side of two of the largest Asian powers. Add to that, the economic downturn, and it would seem that this line of thinking would be very expensive for the US in the long term?

[svinayak]

To me, it seems that TSPA is seriously worried about something. Something they feel India is going to do in medium term or being able to do in medium term - over next 5 years.

The biggest fear of the PA is the joint ops by India and US army to go after Pak assets
They are asking for a third party guarantee

[rohitvats]

To me, it seems that TSPA is seriously worried about something. Something they feel India is going to do in medium term or being able to do in medium term - over next 5 years.

The biggest fear of the PA is the joint ops by India and US army to go after Pak assets
They are asking for a third party guarantee

Possible, entirely possible.

In my opinion, in the short to medium term, TSPA is and will remain capable of holding IA at least to standstill (read: less than dramatic gains for IA) in a short conflict - during which the might of the IA might not come into picture completely. Apart from quick mobilization, this is another aspect which CSD tries to address - to create assymetry between attacking-defending forces from the word go. And TSPA has taken measures to address this.

IMO, the next 5-year defence plan (2012-2017) and the one after that, will change the face of Services in India. Next 5-year plan will see increment in the capability of the Services and more rounding off in terms of overall capability. The Services will set into their planned objective (in terms of strength and equipment profile) in the 2018-2022 plan period. So, it is no surprise that Kiyani said (last year?) that he expects IA to be in positiong to execute CSD in all its glory over next 5years.

However, the urgency for getting PLA involved in POK/NA and now this brigade level exercise points to some other urgency. What one needs to understand that brigade level exercise are generally done between armies expected to fight together. After all, if the whole idea for PLA was to learn about engineering aspects of mechanized in marshy areas, they could well have sent in a Squadron/Field Company worth of their Engineers. Why send in a whole Brigade? And if there is a Brigade, it sure will have mechanized elements comprising of tanks and APC plus support elements.

As I said earlier, something more sinister than anti-India posturing is involved here. Chinese don't show there hand so openly unless, the time has come.

From our POV, if nothign else, it will push the GOI/MOD to expedite the procurement process after the dragon has bared its fangs.