Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Aug 2011 19:40

habal wrote:low CEP is preferred in say population centres of NWFP, Baluchistan & parts of Sindh.

In Pakjab, low CEP high CEP doesn't matter, just finish all of them.

That is the most incredulous statement I've seen here this season.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Aug 2011 20:30

koti wrote:
habal wrote:low CEP is preferred in say population centres of NWFP, Baluchistan & parts of Sindh.

In Pakjab, low CEP high CEP doesn't matter, just finish all of them.
That is the most incredulous statement I've seen here this season.

Statement of fact and nothing more than just mundane cancer surgery.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 07 Aug 2011 19:07

Thought i'd share these two photos of Rambha SB023.
On the left is her photo by my friend Andreas in the static display area of Yelahanka with BrahMos on the Centreline hp, on the right is my photo of her being readied-up for the Static Display a few days earlier

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Aug 2011 20:06

Vishal Jolapara wrote:Thought i'd share these two photos of Rambha SB023.
On the left is her photo by my friend Andreas in the static display area of Yelahanka with BrahMos on the Centreline hp, on the right is her being readied-up for the Static Display a few days earlier
----t/photo/1962782/L/][/url]

Amazing photo. Thumbs up!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Aug 2011 20:14

jilebi for you vishal! brahmos under the belly makes many days!

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 08 Aug 2011 15:13

habal wrote:low CEP is preferred in say population centres of NWFP, Baluchistan & parts of Sindh.

In Pakjab, low CEP high CEP doesn't matter, just finish all of them.

Can we have a 'like' button only for this comment - FB ishtyle?

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 08 Aug 2011 15:16

dinesha wrote:Army to test 2 Agni missiles
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/army-to-test ... 0-117.html

Our guys are becoming predictable. Testing of two agnis just before the mega agni - huh, we seen enough. We know what is going on. SDREs will test everything on the earlier two and then declare system operational after successfully testing the third. What do the DRDO guys think - we are TFTA std bheja?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Aug 2011 19:49

What is predictable? The IA is testing from its inventory to show operation readiness.

The DRDO is conducting development tests of new models.

the problem is both tests are contducted from Balasore range and leads one to not differeantiate between operaton readiness testing and devleopment tests.

One way out of the mis-perception, is to have DRDO in an advisory role as the vehicle designer for operational tests. So all telemetry processing etc is by DRDO. Any DRDO personnel needed for telemetry conversion of the operational vehicles could be seconded to the user force on temporary basis for the duration of the tests. This way there is clear distinction between operational and development tests.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Aug 2011 19:54

ramana , I have doubt about operational missile having telemetry ability those are generally limited during development period , any operational missile flight will be tracked by land based and naval radar.

Also it would be good for SFC to test operational missile from operational deployed areas where they would eventually use these missile from then from balasore.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Aug 2011 20:35

Austin, Even operation flights need telemetry to see how the vehicle performs in flight and near impact point and also to have range safety equipment for inadvertant failures. external radar can only do so much. Its for this reason that test ranges are used.

Also using operational areas to launch tests would tip off the others and more likely to trigger scares of "bolt from blue". So very de-stabilizing.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 08 Aug 2011 20:45

Over a period, i have seen missiles being tested at Balasore because of its infrastructure set up.

Like most of the other countries, we should look at the mobility of the vehicles and test the missile from undisclosed locations, it will truly mean system is in a operational state.

Although personally no doubts on the Missile systems which India Posses. Further, i always believe every time something new is tested rather than the same old system users.

Cheers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Aug 2011 22:34

Testing from non-traditional areas will be de-stabilizing and should not be done for it serves no useful purpose.

Sometimes upgradation can be tested from operational vehicles to take advantage of already scheduled flights.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 09 Aug 2011 07:46

AP missile project hits a gas block
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... -block-445

The ministry of defence (MoD) has objected to a proposal of the Union petroleum ministry for identification of oil and gas exploration at the Krishna-Godavari basin in Andhra Pradesh on the grounds that such a project “would interfere with the proposed long-range missile-launching facility in Andhra Pradesh,” the defence minister, Mr A.K. Antony, told Parliament on Monday.

The MoD is currently discussing the matter with the ministry of petroleum and natural gas (PNG), the government stated.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation is reportedly planning to open an integrated long-range missile launching facility in Machilipatnam. This ancient seaport town is located at a strategic point and gives the DRDO a clear and long range for missile tests, in comparison to the existing facility in Odisha. Though the DRDO has not yet officially announced Machilipatnam as its new missile launch site, oil explorers have already received feelers that the country’s premier defence research body has set its eyes on the town. Companies involved in oil exploration have already begun lobbying with the Centre to shift the missile site to the Andamans.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Aug 2011 08:19

Hope they go thru. Bandar needs a boost.

Bandar= Machlipatnam or Masulipatam was the port of the Mughal Empire on Bay of Bengal. The famous besan ka ladoo called bandar ladoo is from there.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Aug 2011 09:56

ramana wrote:Austin, Even operation flights need telemetry to see how the vehicle performs in flight and near impact point and also to have range safety equipment for inadvertant failures. external radar can only do so much. Its for this reason that test ranges are used.

I would be surprised if they did , established players like US and Russia and even P5 test operational missile on to a testing range as a target which are many thousands km away , but launches are from operational missile bases , that would test crew performance and launch platform reliability in real operational sceneries ( minus the warhead ).

May be in case of SFC launches from Balasore it could be different , but i would lean towards being a real missile minus the warhead and telemetry. These most likely test reliability of batch produced missile

Also using operational areas to launch tests would tip off the others and more likely to trigger scares of "bolt from blue". So very de-stabilizing.

Bolt from Blue strike is a worry for nations that keeps a good percentage of missile in ready to fire mode , in case of India that is not really the case , more ever you would really need a good number of missile to have any success in Bolt from Blue strike and with self proclaimed NFU it minmises the chances.

I believe we do notify the Pakis of any BM launches based on the agreement we have.

We have some how created this shell where any thing we would do would be self goal destabilising , the way you train is the way you fight and hence operational testing from operational bases in operational scenerios should help in improving our strike potential . In good old days even testing Agni once in 5 years was destabilising we have moved on since then , hopefully the SFC moves on from Balasore to operational areas

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 09 Aug 2011 13:55

Companies involved in oil exploration have already begun lobbying with the Centre to shift the missile site to the Andamans.

DRDO should shift there, finding our hydrocarbon resources is as important as ICBM's.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 09 Aug 2011 14:08

Sagar G wrote:
Companies involved in oil exploration have already begun lobbying with the Centre to shift the missile site to the Andamans.
DRDO should shift there, finding our hydrocarbon resources is as important as ICBM's.

Completely agree with Sagar. Those hydrocarbon resources are probably more important than anything else. Its prudent that we find another location for our missile test range.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 09 Aug 2011 17:38

If the oil is found, then only the shift is necessary. Exploration can go on for a certain time frame. If it succeeded, then the shift can take place else DRDO can have the missile test facility there.
Also consider the point that the ones lobbying with the govt may be doing so by keeping the interests of foreign nations as well. There is a security angle to it.
Also it's not that easy to transport everything from various facilities spread all across India to Andaman. Also Andaman is more vulnerable to spying.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 09 Aug 2011 17:47

don't know if moving to the andamans is feasible from a security perspective.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Aug 2011 19:10

Andamans is not feasible or they would have moved long ago. Chandipur was the interim test range(ITR) chosen in mid 80s. Balasore was to be the final test range as it gives a clear shot from medium ranges. Now that the product is a long range vehicle, then proximity to Hyderabad desgin offices is good as spalsh point is anyway south of Equator. If Machlipatnam is being chosen then there must be new requirements that force a new choice. Some place on mainland is need to provide transportation and integration infrastructure.

Austin I guess you know best.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 09 Aug 2011 19:49

Whether it is for development, training or routine test from stock, US conducts its long range missile tests from Vandenberg AFB. Same case for Russia. Our missile are mobile so what difference it makes whether it was tested from Point A or Point B? If observed carefully, all tests are conducted from mobile TEL, whether it is Agni or Prithvi or anything else.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Aug 2011 00:20

can't oil exploration and missile tests co-exists? In the sense, it could be a little bit more investments in operational aspects like having a kill vehicle ready to destroy an incoming test failure missile to the oil rig. Now, we could have active protection system for the rigs, and more channels of business lines open.

Given a problem, they should bisect to see what opportunity lies!?

jai · Post by **jai** » 10 Aug 2011 01:30

Fire the missiles from Lakshadweep, let karachi harbour be the splash point

Or send some to the pirates in Somalia

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2011 08:18

I dont particularly care where we fire it off from, but we need to test A3 and A5 to its full ranges (and avoid debris from failed tests hitting sri lanka). this means splashdown points deep in the southern indian ocean and for A5 perhaps the edge of antarctica ice shelf.

we need both testing and operational test to full range using dummy replica payloads

there is talk of high angle shots to spend the same airtime but shorter range, but imo better to test in operational ballistic profile to full design range.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 10 Aug 2011 09:01

SaiK wrote:can't oil exploration and missile tests co-exists? In the sense, it could be a little bit more investments in operational aspects like having a kill vehicle ready to destroy an incoming test failure missile to the oil rig. Now, we could have active protection system for the rigs, and more channels of business lines open.

Given a problem, they should bisect to see what opportunity lies!?

It won't be a "little bit" of investment but a massive one which will unnecessarily increase the cost of each missile test. Economic factor also has to be kept in mind. So it would be better if DRDO can find another site.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 Aug 2011 11:14

jai wrote:Fire the missiles from Lakshadweep, let karachi harbour be the splash point

The launch pad is OK. The target is perfect.

Why stop at Karachi ? Thee are so many juicy targets further north like Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Sarghoda, Peshawar etc.

Besides, "the people of Karachi" are not at all rabid anti Indian like their brothers in the north.

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 Aug 2011 11:17

Singha wrote:I dont particularly care where we fire it off from, but we need to test A3 and A5 to its full ranges (and avoid debris from failed tests hitting sri lanka). this means splashdown points deep in the southern indian ocean and for A5 perhaps the edge of antarctica ice shelf.

we need both testing and operational test to full range using dummy replica payloads

there is talk of high angle shots to spend the same airtime but shorter range, but imo better to test in operational ballistic profile to full design range.

Why don't we utilise the vast space west of Rajasthan as target area ? I am sure no SENSIBLE person on earth will have any objections.

K

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 10 Aug 2011 11:47

Using empty spaces of Rajasthan as target area would mean that the missile would be overflying over most of the country's landmass. Which means any malfunction of the missile during the test would result in very high probability of debris falling over populated areas and causing unnecessary casualties.
Hence the test range are located on sea coast and the targets in open seas, so that the missile overflys the sea and any debris because of malfunction falls over empty sea. Of course, there is the infinitesimally small probability of debris falling over a hopelessly unlucky ship/boat at sea.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 10 Aug 2011 12:15

bmallick wrote:Using empty spaces of Rajasthan as target area would mean that the missile would be overflying over most of the country's landmass. Which means any malfunction of the missile during the test would result in very high probability of debris falling over populated areas and causing unnecessary casualties.
Hence the test range are located on sea coast and the targets in open seas, so that the missile overflys the sea and any debris because of malfunction falls over empty sea. Of course, there is the infinitesimally small probability of debris falling over a hopelessly unlucky ship/boat at sea.

I know of notifications to civil airlines and other folks using the airspace in case of missiles tests but is there a similar notification to people using the sea? For e.g. would they say that the missile is expected to land between such and such coordinates which need to be avoided etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2011 13:22

yes I have read so.

jai · Post by **jai** » 10 Aug 2011 13:56

bmallick wrote:Using empty spaces of Rajasthan as target area would mean that the missile would be overflying over most of the country's landmass. Which means any malfunction of the missile during the test would result in very high probability of debris falling over populated areas and causing unnecessary casualties.
Hence the test range are located on sea coast and the targets in open seas, so that the missile overflys the sea and any debris because of malfunction falls over empty sea. Of course, there is the infinitesimally small probability of debris falling over a hopelessly unlucky ship/boat at sea.

Mallick sahib, you missed the "west" of Rajasthan in Kersi da's post

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 10 Aug 2011 14:58

My mistake Jai ji... West of Rajasthan for target practice is fine with me. However, rather than long range ones why not short ranged ones launched from the land where Budha Smiles..

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 10 Aug 2011 19:39

In the context of BMD, phase 2 needs two launch sites unless they can base either the target missile of the Agni class or the ABM on a naval ship

And then for SLBM test launches from Arihant's home pen in the vicinity of a instrumented range

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 10 Aug 2011 19:40

Can anybody comment if similar to the BMD components MFCR and LRTR, can the Su-30MKI's future AESA radar and Phalcon radar parallel them respectively allowing for air launched variant of the PDV (< 2500kg)

IF IAF gets to dominate TSP airspace they can take out the BM's from any hidden mobile launchers in their Boost phase given that the altitude ceiling of PDV is 150kms

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 Aug 2011 23:17

bmallick wrote:My mistake Jai ji... West of Rajasthan for target practice is fine with me. However, rather than long range ones why not short ranged ones launched from the land where Budha Smiles..

Good Idea
We standardise on the area west of Rajasthan as the target for practise.
We launch short "ones" from Rajasthan, Gujarat & MP, Punjab
Medium "ones" from Orissa (Chandipur, Balasore), AP, UP
Long "ones" from Assam, & neighbouring states, J&K incl Ladakh.

A long range missile launched from J&K and NE India towards west will sends a strong message to the eastern direction too !!!

Kersi

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 11 Aug 2011 19:33

Did not know where to put this.
A PDF listing all the wind tunnel facilities in India.

What is more fascinating is pictures of some models being tested.
Can someone explain what is being tested in page 52

http://www.icast.org.in/Resources/Dwttfi2.pdf

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Aug 2011 23:11

^ The computer generated 3D pic is the aft section of a rocket/missile with jet vanes. The closest one with that arrangement in our inventory is AAD/Ashwin missile.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 12 Aug 2011 15:22

Brahmos Block-III User Trial Successful

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 578740.cms

POKHRAN: The Army today successfully conducted the user trial of BrahMos Block-III supersonic cruise missiles that has the ability to engage inaccessible targets inside hillocks.

The test was carried out at a firing range here around 1100 hours and met all the mission parameters, sources told PTI here.

The Block III version has the capability of scaling mountainous terrain and can take a steep dive to engage targets located inside hillocks which are otherwise inaccessible.

This was the 25th test of the cruise missile which has already been inducted in the Army and Navy.Army has plans to induct the missile for mountain warfare.

...

The submarine and air launch version of the missile are under different stages of development and are scheduled for test-firing in next couple of years.

The fire-and-forget missiles are stored, transported and launched from special mobile launchers and can be launched in both vertical and horizontal modes. [/quote]

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Aug 2011 15:33

Indian Army test fires BrahMos Block-III missile

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Aug 2011 18:03

^^^Time for CCS to sanction artillery division for Northern Command.