Mass Rapid Transit in India

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 28 Jun 2011 13:28

Theo_Fidel wrote:I know we talked about this earlier but there is a special level of density Indian cities operate at. We should call it the 'Indian Urban Super Crush Density'. This particular bust terminus was planned for the next 50 years in 1990 or so. Back then it was way out in the outskirts of town. It is already completely overloaded.

Keep in mind that what you see in the picture below is one of 5 similar bays, 6 if you include the terminus for local buses. It is obviously not enough. Space for 300+ buses is filled just like that, and trust me the way they park there is often well over 300 there. The terminus now finds itself oddly bang in the middle of town next to the 100 feet road which used to be a ring/bypass road. 3 lakh passengers a day. Even a dedicated Metroline will have trouble with that level of passenger flow.

Yet what do we get, Monorail apparently.

The stats are awe-inspiring: the terminus covers 36 acres and has 180 bus bays that can simultaneously station 270 buses.

But, all this is not enough to accommodate the 3,000 buses that touch the terminus daily.

“The terminus has outgrown the facilities. Better planning and proper administration are the need of the hour to deal with the increasing congestion at CMBT,” says civic activist K. Ramdoss.

[/quote]
Theo, The problem seems to be one of poor scheduling. A one hour turnaround for buses parked at the bay should produce a handling capacity of more than 4000 buses in a day assuming a 16 hour utilisation of the bus terminus.
If I can give it a theoretical spin I would say the ownership structure of the fleet operators (100 % publicly owned) and the manager of terminal facility (another public facility in the case of Chennai it is the Chennai Metropolitan Development Authority, I think) militate against any productivity improvement. The users perhaps don't pay any fees (the way airlines do for using airport facilitieis) and so have no incentive to turn vehicles around quickly.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 29 Jun 2011 14:49

Travelled by the New Delhi Airport Express from NDLS to T3. Superb service, 135 km/h rake on ballast less track. Middle finger to Delhi taxi and auto drivers. Paid Rs. 80 for a 1 way ticket and reached within 20 minutes.

I found no signage on NDLS for the Airport Express. Had to use the age old Indian method of asking people.

I could not find any direct link from NDLS main station to the Metro station.

I had to exit NDLS main station from platform 16 end, negotiate the usual obstacles in cattle, dogs, touts, puddles, smells, parked vehicles, road dividers..you get the picture and enter the Metro entrance about 100 metres away. Its messy, unpleasant and inconvenient. We should have built this last "mile" access direct from NDLS station.

Rest of the Airport Express service is great. here are some pictures https://picasaweb.google.com/1133537813 ... directlink

Rest of the service is world class.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Jun 2011 00:17

Did you use the baggage check-in?

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 30 Jun 2011 05:31

nandakumar, i'm not familiar with details of how buses operate in TN. but in all probability, the drivers have to meet trip times. i know several city wide and state wide corporations that closely track trip times. they dont have an optimizing integer program, but several state corporations do manage to get good through put.

but i can tell you about travel volumes in TN, based on my experiences pre-liberalization days. I used to leave SoKA around evenings. We would reach small B/C towns in NoTN in the middle of the night. You would be amazed at the number of people at 2-3:00 am at small town bus-stands. i have for one have never travelled in a near empty bus in TN. these are small towns like erode and gobichettipalyam. things grow exponentially in bigger cities like salem, kovai and tiruchi.

if you have been to these types of bustands you'll realize that many passengers are on a business/work related trip. Every single passenger prim and properly dressed and out on what looked like a business/work related trip. men and women. they are all trying to reach some place right at dawn, so that they can return back the same day. they all seemed to have luggage which needs to be loaded on top of the bus. one of the key logistic bottlenecks is getting the luggages sorted.

indians in general travel a lot. the amount of traffic in the range of 60-100kms of a town is huge.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 30 Jun 2011 06:41

Travelled mid May 2011. I asked about baggage check and was told it was yet to be operational. I only ever use a back pack so it was no issue for me.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 30 Jun 2011 08:11

Shaardula saar,
The buses are fuller than ever and the routes are busier than ever

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jun 2011 09:58

*drumroll*

a grand new plan to have two bus lanes running down the middle of ORR in BLR has been announced.

problem is, there are already flyovers being built and existing overpasses that leave no room for even a single lane along the median, let alone two.

and if office parks and high density corridors were planned in this corridors, why are the service roads either no there or just single lane rather than AS WIDE as the main carriageway itself, with proper exits and merge/exit buffer lanes?

we build roads with the mentality of a village panchayat in FATA, in the middle of metros,
we go on endless study trips to singapore and hongkong for shopping and learn nothing.

http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/repor ... re_1558081

The BRTS envisages operating high-tech, low-floor buses in large numbers. This would motivate regular commuters to shift to public transport on a regular basis. The 35-km stretch of the Ring Road from Hebbal to Silk Board has 17 junctions, and these are set to be modified to accommodate dedicated bus lanes, so that movement is smooth and without interruption. The bus lanes will be located in the middle of the road.

On its part, the Bangalore Development Authority is already constructing underpasses and flyovers at all intersections on the Ring Road to accommodate dedicated bus corridors.

----
I suppose what they mean is at each flyover there is a single lane each way down the middle at ground level so that buses travel at ground level and never on top of flyovers , so people do not have to climb up and down to the bus stop. that much is true, all the new flyovers have these lanes running down the middle but used by other vehicles taking turns too.

there is no room for dedicated bus lanes in middle of road however.....

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Jun 2011 10:23

Singha,

In India it is impossible to get contractors to follow construction drawings. Even if they are being paid an arm and a leg to follow specs from Massaland.

I ran into this silliness last year while installing the car park and access lanes for a MNC in Hyderabad. The MNC has specific requirements due to special medical containers it ships and receives. There were carefully laid out plans for 6" curbs, rumble strips, grate drains, truncated dome crosswalks, 25' radius curves, 40' radius curves, landing heights, etc. During the pre-bid and during construction they were repeatedly reminded that they were being paid double the normal amount to follow these requirements. I won't mention the construction company other than to say it is much admired on this board and has a foreign sounding name.

I get there one day, 2 months before opening and the usual crappy 3 " un-reinforced concrete disaster has already been laid. No survey was done. The entry cut appeared to me to be 5' off from the drawings. The pavement looked neat and clean but was completely useless to the MNC. Of course it was too late to do any thing, so the landscaping was nixed and concrete was filled in from building to wall all the way around. Now the grading is a problem and water accumulates against the building now, right under my base isolators. A stinking pool of water.

The first time the MNC tried to ship their equipment in, the dock leveler was too low and they were hesitant to move the sensitive refrigerated materials by hand so it got shipped back home that very night. The contractor is not fixing anything despite giving firm assurances he will do so. The facility remains partially open as we wait for fixes.

I can't even imagine what it must be like to get contractors on highways to follow drawings. They have no conception of precision and following survey lines. The people at the top often know how to do it right but it does not filter through to the bottom. The Indian tendency of doing every thing at last minute means we do not get a chance to fix mistakes.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 30 Jun 2011 12:43

shaardula wrote:nandakumar, i'm not familiar with details of how buses operate in TN. but in all probability, the drivers have to meet trip times. i know several city wide and state wide corporations that closely track trip times. they dont have an optimizing integer program, but several state corporations do manage to get good through put.

but i can tell you about travel volumes in TN, based on my experiences pre-liberalization days. I used to leave SoKA around evenings. We would reach small B/C towns in NoTN in the middle of the night. You would be amazed at the number of people at 2-3:00 am at small town bus-stands. i have for one have never travelled in a near empty bus in TN. these are small towns like erode and gobichettipalyam. things grow exponentially in bigger cities like salem, kovai and tiruchi.

if you have been to these types of bustands you'll realize that many passengers are on a business/work related trip. Every single passenger prim and properly dressed and out on what looked like a business/work related trip. men and women. they are all trying to reach some place right at dawn, so that they can return back the same day. they all seemed to have luggage which needs to be loaded on top of the bus. one of the key logistic bottlenecks is getting the luggages sorted.

indians in general travel a lot. the amount of traffic in the range of 60-100kms of a town is huge.

Shaardula, Fair enough. I haven't taken a trip on the TN buses for quite a while now. The trips to the silk town of Arni in North Arcot (grandfather's home twon) for the summer holidays, while at school, through some of the most picturesque places along the way (Kancheepuram, Cheyyar etc.) is still etched in memory. Marbles and Tops would be dangling in the knee-length trouser pockets wherever one went. Since we often travelled as a group with cousins and it is not uncommon to quickly get off a game of tops at a major bus stop and there were no bus bays and just plain dusty earth for a bus stand. The catcher's top would be in a ring and the other players have to land their tops inside the ring and scoop it with the string ( it is called 'up it' although in our quaintly tamiliced pronounciation it would be called as 'uppeet') after the top comes out of the ring. The process would require a whippy wrist action similar to that of a Praveen Kumar's outswinger arm action. But I am digressing. Suraj Sir, I am sure, is watching with hawk eyes.
The point is with such utilisation as you put it, the central terminus in Chennai should handle a lot more capacity in a day than even 3000. I feel the luggage handling can not explain all the delay in turnaround time of buses.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Jun 2011 19:48

Personal experience is that luggage is not that big of an issue for Chennai Moffusil buses. Maybe for rural routes. The new Volvo type buses which are quite numerous actually have a side of the bus compartment.

Turn around of these buses could be better, but there are often much more that 3000 buses passing through. If each one spends 20 minutes unloading + 20 minutes cleaning/petrol/shift change + 20 minutes loading/ticket checking, it is 1 hour right there. The bottom line is that the numbers have tripled in ten years and are set to triple again in the next ten years, and these are the types of densities we need to think about in India. There is talk of a second bus facility near Tambaram. It is hard to expand this one because of limitations in road access.

IT doesn't matter where the monorail line runs, in a matter of months it will be packed to the rafters because the demand is so extremely high. Even MRTS is starting to get quite crowded at peak hour. It is probably a couple of years and the St Thomas mount connection away from being quite over crowded.

In the past I've pointed against the silliness of even our metro's for building to 4 coach to 6 coach standards. These are simply not sufficient in India.Even 8 coach in Delhi metro is getting crowded and system is already essentially maxed out in several sections. This after only capturing 15 % of daily passenger trips. Ideally 60% of passenger trips in our cities should be by rail. To get there and to deal with future demand, Delhi is going to be a 50 million resident City fairly soon, Chennai is going to be a 15 million person City soon, we should build to those numbers. Mumbai is finding that even its 15 coach locals are not adequate. We should be building to that sort of numbers and capacity. 15 coach metros at-least. And stop playing with toys like monorail.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Jul 2011 12:34

rahulm wrote:..........
I found no signage on NDLS for the Airport Express. ............. We should have built this last "mile" access direct from NDLS station.

Yes, that is where last mile miss is there. Hope it is done sooner than later.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 04 Jul 2011 13:13

Took a radio cab from CP to domestic airport yesterday. The airport metro runs to T3, so most travelers using the domestic terminals avoid it, and also I am not sure how quick and efficient the connectivity between T3 and the domestic terminals is. So despite my desire to take the airport metro express, was unable to.

BhairavP · Post by **BhairavP** » 04 Jul 2011 13:21

^Connectivity between T3 and domestic is quite good, there's an AC bus every ten minutes, and also cabs which run between the two terminals.

Uttam · Post by **Uttam** » 15 Jul 2011 20:47

Very Interesting
(Click on the link below for maps, cost estimates and stations to be connected.)

Bullet (their word not mine) Trains out of Delhi

COMING SOON Air-conditioned rail network that will drastically reduce travel time ( )

An agreement with the three states was signed today (Wednesday). It will be similar to Delhi Metro Rail Corporation.

N AV I N K U M A R urban development secretary
In four years, one can Meerut, Panipat and travel to Meerut, Panipat and Alwar in half the time it takes now from Delhi.

This will be possible through high-speed bullet trains running on dedicated tracks at a maximum speed of 160 km an hour, which is higher than the speed of the Rajdhani Express currently.

One can then reach Meerut in 63 minutes, Alwar in 117 minutes and Panipat in 61 minutes.

At a later stage, 16 towns in the National Capital Region (NCR) will be linked to Delhi through this air-conditioned rail network.

The union urban development ministry on Wednesday signed an agreement with the governments of Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan and Haryana to create the Regional Rail Transit System (RRTS).

“We are setting up a joint venture company called National Capital Region Transport Corporation (NCRTC) to implement the high-speed rail project. An agreement with the ect. An agreement with the three states was signed today (Wednesday). It will be similar to Delhi Metro Rail Corporation.
Each corridor could be implemented through its subsidiary,“ said Navin Kumar urban development secretary. urban development secretary.

Broad-gauge tracks will be laid in Delhi and its three neighbouring states for this.

This will be the first phase of the RRTS and is expected to become operational by 2015. The feasibility report for the three corridors will be ready by the end of August.

In the second phase there will be five more corridors (see box). “While a majority of the track n Delhi will be underground, in the other states it will be a mix of elevated, on ground and underground. Initially each of the trains will have six coaches, to be later be upgraded to nine,“ Kumar said.

The trains will have an automatic fare collection system.

The Centre and three state governments will fund the project. “Both the stakeholders (the Centre and the states) would contribute 50% each. We also plan to raise funds through property development along the corridor and loans from multilateral agencies. The possibilities of private participation in the project are also being examined,“ Kumar said.

In Delhi, multi-modal stations will be provided to integrate the RRTS with Delhi Metro and DTC. There will be feeder services also.

An urban development ministry official said 11.7 lakh passenger modes (private vehicles, buses, trucks, etc.,) cross Delhi borders every day. “The RRTS would go a long way in decongesting the traffic in the NCR,“ said the official.

Even more details here (from Hindi newspaper)
http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/de ... 042601.cms

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 15 Jul 2011 21:10

^^^^
This has to be replicated in other major metro cities take for example Bombay-Pune, Bombay-Ratnagiri, Bombay-Surat routes.
Or consider The Hyderabad-Secunderabad Area, which rivals the NCR in terms of size and reach. Or the greater Chennai and Bangalore Metropolitan area.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Jul 2011 21:58

if it's not DDM, 160 km max speed is not that higher from what we have now. I was hoping 180+ at least.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jul 2011 22:10

so, it is not bullet okay.

Uttam · Post by **Uttam** » 15 Jul 2011 22:14

Rahul M wrote:if it's not DDM, 160 km max speed is not that higher from what we have now. I was hoping 180+ at least.

More speed would certainly be desirable. I am not sure though how the economics of it works. I suspect the investment required for a much higher speed track would be much more than the four states would be willing to commit. In any case this is a welcome development. This will also help in reducing pressure on Delhi, and I am sure there are many other metros that can use such a system.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 16 Jul 2011 11:58

Sturdy buses to ensure a safer ride

This is one instance where rising compensation amounts forced a government agency to opt for safer options.

partha · Post by **partha** » 16 Jul 2011 12:46

Bangalore Metro's tunneling work:

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 18 Jul 2011 14:01

Work on Ahmedabad Metro to begin by November

The work on the first phase of the Rs12,000 crore Metrolink Express for Gandhinagar and Ahmedabad (MEGA) project is likely to begin by November.

On Saturday the authorities undertook a ground check according to the guidelines given by the advisor to the Delhi Metro Rail Corporation Ltd (DMRC). To discuss related issues they met officials of Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation (AMC) and Ahmedabad Urban Development Authorities (AUDA). The MEGA authorities visited the metro rail route in Ahmedabad from Vasna APMC to Motera. Sanjay Gupta, chairman of MEGA said checking the ground reality was a routine exercise on the metro rail route.
“We are ready to start work on the metro rail within a period of three to four months. However, exact schedule will be announced by the state government,” said Gupta.

Gupta expressed his satisfaction about the ground reality on the Ahmedabad route. “The ground alignment is satisfactory and surprisingly there seems to be no obstacles in the way of the work at present on the route,” Gupta said. The chairman of MEGA also praised the AMC and the AUDA officials for their support.

Guruprasad Mohapatra, municipal commissioner of Ahmedabad, said AMC has a larger role to play in the implementation of MEGA as most part of the route, from Vasna to Motera, passes through Ahmedabad. “The BRTS and the metro rail will complement each other,” Mohapatra said.

The metro rail project will be carried out in a phased manner. The first phase of the metro rail project will cover a distance of 32.65 km from Vasna APMC in Ahmedabad to Akshardham in Gandhinagar and 10.90 km east-west corridor between Kalupur and Thaltej in Ahmedabad. In the second phase, the metro rail will connect Ahmedabad and Dholera special investment region (SIR).

According to sources close to the development, if funds for the project flow in smoothly, the project can be completed within two to three years once its work begins.

Dholera is approx 80-100km far. I wonder if this will be longest metro route in India? Hope things get completed as per schedule.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 18 Jul 2011 20:05

This project as more then an even chance of coming up fast as Gautam Adani has his hooks firmly trenched in all future Dholera projects.
There is a port and also a new international airport planned.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 18 Jul 2011 20:18

Uttam wrote:More speed would certainly be desirable. I am not sure though how the economics of it works. I suspect the investment required for a much higher speed track would be much more than the four states would be willing to commit. In any case this is a welcome development. This will also help in reducing pressure on Delhi, and I am sure there are many other metros that can use such a system.

The number one problem with speed in India is access control. IIRC the WDM\WDG-4's already have the capability of reaching 180+ kmph. The Raj's could run a lot faster. The fear is a spike in fatalities. They need a plan to fence off the lines.

Then of course comes the infrastructure problem. Heavier rail, 130 lb/ft+, less goods esp. bulk, straighter/sturdier line, etc. It is a good start to try 160 kmph. Eventually all Indian lines should run at 200-220+ kmph.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 19 Jul 2011 14:35

Looks like this is activity on this project.

Ahmedabad-Mumbai-Pune train to cost 56,000 cr

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Jul 2011 08:48

Hitachi-Mitsubishi combo in race for Chennai's monorail project

Top Japanese firm Hitachi, in collaboration with Mitsubishi, is in talks with Tamil Nadu government for providing monorail technology for the state’s 300 km project.

“The technology is environment-friendly and is different from the slab structure guideway used by the Metro Rail. Even the infrastructure of monorail costs 30 per cent less and it is quake-resistant,” Hirabaya said while citing an example of Osaka monorail, which withstood the quake in 1995.

He said the passenger capacity of a six-car train in a 90-metre platform length is 62,440 people per hour per direction (PPHPD) and is somewhat comparable with Metro Rail.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jul 2011 09:50

IR tracks should have been fenced and underpasses provided periodically long ago. there can be no further delay in this task...no matter what the cost. I see it as far more important to fence the tracks all over, build underpasses and improve bridges and signaling, double tracks such that trains can maintain a steady 100kmph (all engine types are capable of that) across the country rather than a super duper HSR between two cities.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 11 Aug 2011 17:31

Theo_Fidel wrote:Singha,

In India it is impossible to get contractors to follow construction drawings. Even if they are being paid an arm and a leg to follow specs from Massaland.

I ran into this silliness last year while installing the car park and access lanes for a MNC in Hyderabad. The MNC has specific requirements due to special medical containers it ships and receives. There were carefully laid out plans for 6" curbs, rumble strips, grate drains, truncated dome crosswalks, 25' radius curves, 40' radius curves, landing heights, etc. During the pre-bid and during construction they were repeatedly reminded that they were being paid double the normal amount to follow these requirements. I won't mention the construction company other than to say it is much admired on this board and has a foreign sounding name.

I get there one day, 2 months before opening and the usual crappy 3 " un-reinforced concrete disaster has already been laid. No survey was done. The entry cut appeared to me to be 5' off from the drawings. The pavement looked neat and clean but was completely useless to the MNC. Of course it was too late to do any thing, so the landscaping was nixed and concrete was filled in from building to wall all the way around. Now the grading is a problem and water accumulates against the building now, right under my base isolators. A stinking pool of water.

The first time the MNC tried to ship their equipment in, the dock leveler was too low and they were hesitant to move the sensitive refrigerated materials by hand so it got shipped back home that very night. The contractor is not fixing anything despite giving firm assurances he will do so. The facility remains partially open as we wait for fixes.

I can't even imagine what it must be like to get contractors on highways to follow drawings. They have no conception of precision and following survey lines. The people at the top often know how to do it right but it does not filter through to the bottom. The Indian tendency of doing every thing at last minute means we do not get a chance to fix mistakes.

I know what you are talking about. After a stint in the US, I'm working on a few much admired (atleast on BRF) infra projects. Forget getting the contractors to follow the drawings, you were lucky to have the whole set of drawings before constructing it. Here you generate the drawings as you go. I'm now facing a situation where I asked the construction director on a project to pour a huge blob of concrete and chisel out whatever it is that he wants than ask me to change the drawings again. He blew a fuse but then what goes my father... These are flagship infra projects intended to show that we have arrived..(where to I'm not sure)
Another issue is the amount of information shown in the drawings - There is an inherent urge to not show *complete* information in the drawings, possibly to leave wiggle room later on. What is not realized is the delay and cost overrun caused due to this lack of information. The best drawings I have seen here are about 60% CD of what I produced in US. So unless the concept of full documentation & sign off before shovels hit the ground comes along here, you will be dealing with such situations all the time.
Oh yes, I am talking about my experiences with much admired construction firm with a foreign sounding name also known for the lunch-n-tea diplomacy in the industry here

You can size up where the other construction firms will land up...
ps: FYI, I don't work for them!

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 11 Aug 2011 21:31

Given my experience with the muncipal roads staff, I had put this down to not having enough civil engineers to direct the labor. I presume civil engineers were involved from the Indian end in these cases?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 11 Aug 2011 22:40

The foreign sounding construction firm is filled with engineers. Several were from near my home town as well. I personally did not meet anyone who did not call himself an engineer. It baffles me where the problem is. What they probably need is people with degrees in construction science. This is very different from CE as they learn how to manage and properly sequence out a project. Building in correct sequence, down to the curb level is 90% of high quality projects. It is quite complicated in a large project with 2000+ separate spec items that most janata never see. They had a 1500 page CD set from Massaland and sitting down with them they understood everything. They were able to read the drawings very well but it just does not trickle down to the actual construction crew.

We do have a solution however if Marut is interested. Since all our documents are 3D models anyway we make sure critical areas are given a special 3D rendering. If 'everyone' knows what it should look like they will at least make an attempt. My thought is that most construction crews never run into high standards and demands to follow specs from owners. So they are baffled when their work is labeled unacceptable. The 3D model hasn't fixed all the problems like the lack of precision surveyors but we got thinks to look more like they should be in the next 2 go arounds. Now if some one in India, anyone, can lay smooth concrete to 1/16" per foot grade I will be in paradise.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 12 Aug 2011 02:03

Given my experience with the muncipal roads staff, I had put this down to not having enough civil engineers to direct the labor

The labour is not controllable. They're uncivil and indisciplined. If the CE insisted on following some standards, they'll beat him up and portray the incident as him harassing them in the first place. Increasing civil engineers won't help. Someone, or some 10 of them, standing there with a lathi enforcing the requests of the civil engineer would help.

negi · Post by **negi** » 12 Aug 2011 03:37

For peanuts one will only get monkeys; attention to details needs time and money with the kind of labor wages prevalent in India why should we surprised if the poor souls on ground cut corners while doing their job.

I have lived with my parents in India in service quarters and every year when the buildings need to be painted/repaired or say window grills changed I saw young 15-17 year olds being employed to do the task. In a city like Mumbai these chaps had no place to live (most of them slept on terrace at the worksite) , most of them hailed from villages of UP/Bihar and even Orissa who had come to Mumbai in search of work. They were being paid a daily wage of INR 150 (last I checked was in February 2011) working in such hazardous conditions without proper gear and such low remuneration how is a human expected to take interest and do a good job ?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 12 Aug 2011 07:10

Jaspreet wrote:The labour is not controllable. They're uncivil and indisciplined. If the CE insisted on following some standards, they'll beat him up and portray the incident as him harassing them in the first place. Increasing civil engineers won't help. Someone, or some 10 of them, standing there with a lathi enforcing the requests of the civil engineer would help.

I found the people doing the job were grateful to get direction. The assigned muncipal civil engineer was missing in action after the materials were delivered because he had other projects going on.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Aug 2011 09:17

Global Bidding Process Begins for Chennai Monorail Project
Excerpts

The Chennai Monorail project is off to a brisk start with the State government initiating an international competitive bidding process to build a system traversing a total length of 111 km in the first phase.

The developer will be responsible to design, construct, finance, own, maintain and transfer the project after a period of 30 years.

With the State under the grip of a power crisis, a monorail system powered by a battery/solar combination is likely to be preferred.

Sources attributed the strong focus on suburbs in the current proposal to a conscious push to extend mass transit options to the peripheral areas.

The capacity of one train would be about 560 passengers, which translates to a capacity of about 10,000 passengers per hour per direction. All the proposed monorail corridors have been chosen to meet this capacity by 2021.

With two metro corridors already under construction, the monorail network almost a certainty and preliminary proposals for a Bus Rapid Transit System (BRTS) doing the rounds, operational integration of the city's various mass transit grids would be challenge over the next 10 years.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 19 Aug 2011 03:29

SSridhar wrote:The developer will be responsible to design, construct, finance, own, maintain and transfer the project after a period of 30 years.

Can that possibly be right. Even the Reliance metro needed a VGF IIRC. Doesn't mention who determines the ticket price.

One can do the math. The most viable IMHO is the Poonamalee to Kathipara section. All others are wildly unrealistic. The Mumbai metro is costing about Rs 3000 crore and is about the same length. So optimistically lets keep the cost there. W/ an interest rate of 5% & 3 1/3% principal pay back over 30 years. Just the capital outgo will be about Rs 250 Crore per year. Say maintenance electricity salaries etc tack on another Rs 200 Crore or so. The system would need Rs450 crore just for break even. Which would be about Rs 1.25 Crore per day. Assuming a peak run of 24,000 per hour (both directions) for say 16 hours (unrealistic). 384,000 pax max. Each passenger would then have to pay 12,500,000/384,000 = Rs 33 per ticket. Just to break even. Bus ticket from Poonamalle to Kathipara was Rs 6.50 a year ago.

I see bankruptcy for this system.

Wonder how the monorail/malaysia lobby got its hooks so deep into AMMA.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 19 Aug 2011 05:03

On the Mumbai suburban, to increase capacity they could introduce special wide body EMUs, their undercarriage travels on both the adjacent broad gauge tracks, with oppositely running trains crossing at stations or at other feasible places, this is like treating the twin tracks as a single line

or to avoid this new single line situation, they would have to construct elevated tracks, lower section is say for south bound trains, and the upper section is for north bound trains, only the tracks need to be supported not the space in between, and then every station needs a overhead platform as well

generally the adjacent lines travel equidistant but not always, re-alignment and re-grading of parallel tracks will be needed and then these huge coaches have to be made of light weight material

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 19 Aug 2011 12:45

Theo_Fidel wrote: Can that possibly be right. Even the Reliance metro needed a VGF IIRC. Doesn't mention who determines the ticket price.

One can do the math. The most viable IMHO is the Poonamalee to Kathipara section. All others are wildly unrealistic. The Mumbai metro is costing about Rs 3000 crore and is about the same length. So optimistically lets keep the cost there. W/ an interest rate of 5% & 3 1/3% principal pay back over 30 years. Just the capital outgo will be about Rs 250 Crore per year. Say maintenance electricity salaries etc tack on another Rs 200 Crore or so. The system would need Rs450 crore just for break even. Which would be about Rs 1.25 Crore per day. Assuming a peak run of 24,000 per hour (both directions) for say 16 hours (unrealistic). 384,000 pax max. Each passenger would then have to pay 12,500,000/384,000 = Rs 33 per ticket. Just to break even. Bus ticket from Poonamalle to Kathipara was Rs 6.50 a year ago.

I see bankruptcy for this system.

Wonder how the monorail/malaysia lobby got its hooks so deep into AMMA.

The way this will pan out is for someone to quote an unrealistic ticket price or a rock bottom gap funding by the State (I am guessing the terms of the tender as similar to licences awarded for NHAI contracts) and thus win the tender.
Once the contract is awarded they will come up with force majeure or cost escalation etc. In other words, basically hold the Government to ransom and get a tariff hike or a extra subsidy from the State exchequer. Since the whole idea is to win the construction contract what happens thereafter is of minor consequence.
The project would be funded 1:5 in equity and debt. The project is then inflated by 20 per cent and so the equity componenet is funded by the kickbacks received from the equipment supplier.
The earliest example of such a ripoff was in the funding of deep sea fishing trawlers using a Central Govt. funding facility called Shipping Development Fund. The debt equity ratio then was 9:1. The trawler cost is jacked up by 10 per cent (the Koreans and the japanese ship builders were only too willing to oblige) and the kickback is accounted as equity portion. The centre releases loan under the SDF facility. The proposals are usually from people connected with the ruling party. In the 80s, that meant the Congress party. The promoter had no incentive to repay the loan since there was practically no money of his that was on the line. He promptly defaulted. Then it is preseneted as an industry wide crisis once again requiring, as you guess, additional central assistance! the central Govt decided discretion to be better part of valour and palmed it off to SCICI a subsidiary of ICICI created for this purpose. The ICICI too couldn't do much with it and eventually merging bad loans of SCICI into the bigger cesspool of bad loans with ICICI.
Win contract and cry wold is the tried and tested tactic of industrial oligarchy of India and this one is going to be no different. Incidentally we are beginning to see the game emerging in UMPP proposals where the Ambanis, Tatas, Adanis are now saying that they can't be bound by the tariff they had quoted earlier because Indonesia has imposed an export duty on coal. Then long term loans will be sourced from commercial banks, IDFC or even supplier credits with some kind of fall back option against the State Government. So even if there is no bailout in the formal sense, the losers would still be the financial institutions.
The malysian consortium took a gamble on the monorail project in 2006 when the AIADMK party was in power. They lost the bet when the DMK won the elections and the party chose MRT. The AIADMK coming back to power is a lifeline now thrown at them.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Aug 2011 08:14

The monorail ridership numbers are truly tragic. The cost per km is Rs150 crore. Where is the cost saving. I don't see it. TN definitely does not have this sort of money. The center will surely have to fund it.

This is the equivalent of adding about 100 buses per route to the city of Chennai which already has 3600 buses. For that phase 1 amount we could buy 50,000 Volvo buses. Yes, increase the Chennai fleet 20 times!

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/tod ... 385852.ece

The Tamil Nadu government has kick started its ambitious Monorail Mass Rapid Transit System (monorail) project for Chennai at a cost of Rs 16,650 crore for 111 km in the first phase.

The project will be undertaken under Design, Build, Finance, Operate and Transfer basis with the State Government issuing RFQ (request for qualification) from global players. The State-run Metropolitan Transport Corporation (Chennai) Ltd (MTC) will be the nodal agency to develop the monorail system.

In the first phase, the MTC has identified four corridors of various lengths and the monorail system covering 111 km. This means the cost per km will be Rs 150 crore. The government's final plan is to have nearly 300 km of monorail covering the Chennai metropolitan – that could cost nearly Rs 50,000 crore going by the cost for the first phase.

I'm beginning to think AMMA has received massive kick backs from the monorail/Malaysia lobby to stick Chennai with this bill. MTC will go bankrupt shortly and so end bus service as well.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Aug 2011 11:36

Theo_Fidel wrote: I'm beginning to think AMMA has received massive kick backs from the monorail/Malaysia lobby to stick Chennai with this bill. MTC will go bankrupt shortly and so end bus service as well.

What service, MTC area has increased upto Kanchipuram these days but the no of buses at 2900 has gone down in the last 15 years while population in the Mteropolitan area has gone up by 2 times.

Practically now in Chennai Personal 2 wheeler and TATA Magic share auto is the only viable alternative for those who cannot afford thier own car (Chennai autos can never be for Masses, its is more expensive than FastTrack)

BTW: Monorail has been part of AMMA's project from her last term cancelled by DMK regime. Come hell or Hail she will push it through. Its utility is however as put it definately in question.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Aug 2011 08:12

Chennai monorail: Proposals invited

The State government has invited proposals from consultancy firms for providing transaction advisory services for the Chennai Monorail project.

The consultant's job will be to assist the monorail cell at the Metropolitan Transport Corporation in evaluation of the technical and financial bids received in response to the global bidding process initiated by the government.

SPV to be formed

Once a developer is selected through a transparent points-based evaluation process for implementing a monorail mass rapid transit system in the identified corridors under Design, Build, Finance, Operate and Transfer basis, a Special Purpose Vehicle would be formed within a month.

In the first phase of Chennai Monorail project, a 111-km-long network is proposed to be built, a senior government official said.

Largely financed by developer

The State government would offer an initial ‘grant', but the project would be largely financed by the developer in exchange for land and development rights.

The terms of this arrangement would be clearly defined in a concession agreement, which would also stipulate a user fare structure.

Aiding and advising the government's Empowered Monorail Committee during the preparation of the concession agreement would also be the consultant's responsibility.

Ambitious target

The government has set an ambitious target of two years for the implementation of at least one segment of the proposed 111-km long monorail network.

Work on the 19-km monorail line in Mumbai, the only Indian city where a monorail system is currently under construction, has already taken three years and it is yet to be completed.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Aug 2011 08:16

Aditya_V wrote:What service, MTC area has increased upto Kanchipuram these days but the no of buses at 2900 has gone down in the last 15 years while population in the Mteropolitan area has gone up by 2 times.

Practically now in Chennai Personal 2 wheeler and TATA Magic share auto is the only viable alternative for those who cannot afford thier own car (Chennai autos can never be for Masses, its is more expensive than FastTrack)

Absolutely true. Besides, the maintenance of MTC buses has been rather poor and increasingly one can find broken down buses everywhere. Bikes, scooters and TATA magic rule the roost. Yes, autos have become more expensive in some cases or at least as expensive as the call taxis in most cases.