Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

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Kamboja
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Kamboja »

Folks, just finished A God Who Hates by Wafa Sultana -- an interesting, if polemical criticism of Islam. The author was born and raised in Syria and the book is a combination of description of her childhood and youth in smaller cities in Syria and criticism of Islam based on her experiences as well as the history and practice of Islam.

I thought it was interesting enough to share a few points from the book:

1) On the Arab/Muslim way of debate: she writes that Muslims do not believe in 'calm, reasoned debate in level voice', but will always resort to shouting matches -- she consistently uses the word 'shrieking'. Goes on to say that a Muslim will view an opponent who tries to calmly reason with them as weak, and believes that they are winning if their own decibel level is higher. This is reflective of the underlying violence inherent in Islam, which is not and has never been an 'open market' of ideas that are left to stand on their own merit against opposing ideas or philosophies, but has always required the threat of violence to back it up and defeat rival thought.

2) On Mohammad: she argues that a large part of the problems in Islam arise from the view of Mohammad as the 'ideal man' and the role model for all Muslim men (and his wives as role models for Muslim women). According to her Mohammed was, at best, a warlord like any other of his time and points to the documented reports of his raiding, war-waging, and authorization of the killing and beheading of opponents and seizure of their property (including women, of course). She brings up the often discussed marriage to Aisha when she was six and he was fifty-odd, and the consummation of the marriage three years later -- again, on the low end of the age range even for that time. Then she discusses his other marriages -- to Safiya, a Jewish woman who belonged to a a tribe of Jews (Banu Nadir) that was defeated by Mohammed; on the same day that he killed her father, brother and husband, he took her away from one of his followers who had claimed her (compensating him with two of Safiya's cousins, or seven female slaves, or seven donkeys, depending on the interpretation) and consummated their marriage. Sultana writes that all this brutal behavior is sanctified and seen as acceptable even today because it was Mohammed performing these actions, which thereby become guiding principles for all Muslim men, which leads to unhealthy and unequal marriages in Muslim cultures.

3) On power relations in Islam: she believes that the relationship between Allah and the Muslim is one of total domination-submission -- the Muslim is to completely hand over all authority and obedience to Allah. This domination-submission relationship is then mirrored all the way down the societal pyramid; thus, Allah is supreme and the believer is to obey without question, and similarly the Ruler (Sultan, Emir) is supreme and his subject obeys without question, the follower is supreme and his wife obeys without question, the father is supreme and his children obey without question, and so on and so forth. Thus everyone in Islamic society is simultaneously an absolute tyrant in one context and an abject slave in another -- she gives the example of a Syrian intelligence official she witnessed who went from utter fear and respect on the phone with his superior officer to shouting commands and literally kicking his junior officer who entered his office after the call. Because one cannot retaliate against the injustices, brutalities and scarring (both emotional and physical) inflicted by a superior, revenge is achieved by taking out that anger and hate on an inferior, who in turn cannot retaliate but takes his or her revenge against his junior or his wife, who goes and beats her children or step-children in turn. Hence a constant cycle of hatred and violence inflicted on those who cannot fight back.

4) On male dominance: women are never free in Islam -- when children they are the property of the father, if the father dies and they are unmarried they become the property of the brothers, and after marriage they belong to their husbands. Sultana includes stories of how she, a trained physician with a masters degree and years of experience, was warned by her mother and others that she should respect and pay attention to her brother, who was half her age and a drunk, simply because he was her brother (this is before her marriage). In another anecdote, she was denied the issuance of a passport by the Syrian government because she was a woman, so she had to bribe a half-brother (another unemployed drunk) who she had not spoken to in years to accompany her and grant permission for her visa request -- only then did she receive one.

5) On 'raiding' in Islam: she claims that Islam has to be understood in the context of the desert areas that it originated in. The area had tribes living in it that were constantly raiding one another -- the stronger preying on the weaker. Everyone was always in fear of being raided, while simultaneously looking for opportunities to raid because this was necessary for survival. Thus a lot of the 'revelations' in the Koran justify acts of raiding and raiding ones enemies is enshrined in Islam as a legitimate, if not the legitimate, way for a Muslim to make a living. Thus raiding and slave-taking became an established, even holy, way of fighting and ruling for Islamic rulers, from the Arabs to the Persians to the Turks. Forcible confiscation of the wealth of the unbeliever became the preferred method of enrichment, rather than working or trading and toiling to accumulate wealth oneself.

6) On non-Arab and Arab Muslims: she believes that Arabs are more likely to absorb the negative messages of the Koran -- against Christians, Jews, and kafirs because they understand the actual words being spoken. She points out something that I was not aware of, which is that in the daily recitation of prayer (al-fatihah) is a reference to 'those who have gone astray, and those who have incurred Allah's wrath' which according to long-standing tradition refers to Christians and Jews, respectively. Thus, each and every day, a pious Arab knows and understands that he or she is execrating Christians and Jews five times each day. Similarly Arabs will understand all the verses about raiding and fighting better than non-Arabs will, and again receives this knowledge as divine sanction. In short, Arabs actually understand the Koran so they are more likely to imbibe the violent message contained therein than non-Muslims, who are often not aware of the savagery of some of the verses they blindly recite.

Her book struck me as very ironic because she falls prey to the very same criticism that she levels against Muslims in terms of how she argues -- i.e. one gets the sense of a fanatic shrieking about the evils of Islam, just as she describes Muslims as shrieking about the greatness of Islam. She has all the zeal of a recent convert, except in this case the conversion is against rather than towards Islam.

I disagree with her that Arabs are more likely than non-Arabs to become radicalized -- we have our TFTA neighbors to the West as living explosive proof of this.

Another problem I had with the book is that much of her criticism is really about tribal, patriarchal culture that is not limited to Islam -- such problems are and have been prevalent in nearly all societies.

That said, I think she is on to something when she writes that the biggest problem is in viewing Mohammed's actions as sacred and the ideal that a man should strive for -- this freezing in time and legitimizing forever the actions of a warlord who clearly acted in his own self-interest and for motives that included lust for wealth, power and women. That these actions are not permitted to be seen in their historical context but are commanded to be viewed as the actions of the ideal man now and forever is something that has crippled Islam and prevented its evolution into a more civilized and modern form, and I think it will continue to be so until some radical reformation from within Islam happens.

She also provides interesting background on Syria and the political situation between the Sunni majority and the Alawi and other minorities -- good for anyone unfamiliar with Syria.
ramana
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

Google books version of

Wafa Sultana's A god who hates
brihaspati
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

Kamboja wrote
Her book struck me as very ironic because she falls prey to the very same criticism that she levels against Muslims in terms of how she argues -- i.e. one gets the sense of a fanatic shrieking about the evils of Islam, just as she describes Muslims as shrieking about the greatness of Islam. She has all the zeal of a recent convert, except in this case the conversion is against rather than towards Islam.
What is the problem in the style of her criticism? She is making quite plain and matter of fact statements. I have repeatedly quoted from Islamic sources about the things she describes and criticizes - mere quoting and analyzing was criticized by certain quarters here as being fanatically-anti-Muslim. There is a self-deluded refusal to understand the reality of 7th century Arabia and the so-called revelation of Muhammad - and thinking of criticisms that match Islam's reality.
I disagree with her that Arabs are more likely than non-Arabs to become radicalized -- we have our TFTA neighbors to the West as living explosive proof of this.
She has a point - the homogenized radicalism in Arabs -is not reproduced to the same degree of hatred and intensity without any factional counter-currents, in other Islamic nations. In Arabs [not Yemenis - who actually fought hard initially to resist Ali who was sent to subjugate them, and onlee succeeded by applying the proven genocidic and deceptive tactics of Muhammad. They were probably also a last remnant of the Sabatean culture of coastal urban civilization and in that sense different from the marauding tribes like Qureysh.] we do not have any Ahmadyias, or Bahais, or "Sufis" as in our so-called TFTA neighbours.

Yes both regions are fanatics - but yet, yet, there are differences. In the Arab-Arab you have an inherent, and insipient faith nurtured sadism -homogenized almost completely in the population not really seen elsewhere.
Another problem I had with the book is that much of her criticism is really about tribal, patriarchal culture that is not limited to Islam -- such problems are and have been prevalent in nearly all societies.
Tribal patriarchal is a very loose category - and not all of Muhammad's outpourings are reproduced in all tribal, patriarchal cultures. The uniqueness of Islamic foundational texts in making private sadism, greed, and sex-addiction and keenness to appropriate others wives and daughters - not only public virtue but also divine grace and holy injunction, is not seen in cultures just because they are tribal or patriarchal. Even the Judaeo -Christian traditions the main text and the ahadith borrow from - do not condone such behaviour in their texts - look at the commentary within the Old Testament [very "tribal" and very very "patriarchal"] on the appropriation of Bathsheba the wife of Uriah the Hittite.
Last edited by brihaspati on 10 Aug 2011 00:07, edited 1 time in total.
Kamboja
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Kamboja »

Bji,

I am in agreement with you on almost all counts. My initial post might have given the impression that I disagree more than I agree with Sultana's views, whereas on the contrary I think most of her criticisms are absolutely on point -- which is why I wanted to share my impressions of her book.

With regard to the 'shrieking' -- it's not that I disagree with her message, it's that the tone of her writing strikes me as too impassioned and fanatical. This is a personal preference, but I always prefer lucid, cool reasoning to high-pitched rhetoric, and I think the shrill tone of her criticisms actually weakens the very solid arguments that she makes. Then again, I did not have the experience of growing up as a woman in Syria, so maybe shrieking is the only human way to respond to that upbringing.

I also think that she is on to something critical when she says that Islam is 'frozen in the 7th century' -- by declaring that the actions of Mohammed were the ideal for all time to come, it made reform of Islam with the passage of time and new developments far more difficult than if, say, there was freedom within Islam to view his actions as situated in a specific time, place, and culture. That is the single most important thing standing in the way of the evolution of Islam and the easing of its tension with the modern world. IMHO.

--- apologies for not sticking to forum rules and thanks to RajeshAji for the notice ---
Last edited by Kamboja on 10 Aug 2011 00:18, edited 3 times in total.
RajeshA
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by RajeshA »

Gentlemen please,

this thread, as it says in the very first post, is NOT for
4. Discussing Islamic Theology
6. Talking disparagingly about personalities and symbols of Islam and about Muslims, from poster's PoV
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

okay - edited my post to push the blame on to the texts to preserve the image of the person in whose name the textual claims are actually given, and demanded that it is a sacrilege not to believe that he actually said or done the things which are now seen to be harming his image. :P
RajeshA
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by RajeshA »

Thanks for your cooperation! :)
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

RajeshA ji,
here is a good example of how "values" lie underneath "secularism" and determines its specificity. Academic objectivity can contradict "secularism", and it is the undercurrent of "values" that will determine what objectivity can and cannot reveal. What has to be self-censored and how, shows what "values" are ruling underneath - and in a sense religions pervade everywhere, even where we think they are not operating.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by A_Gupta »

Gallup poll on attitudes of Muslim Americans.
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_ ... index.html
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by A_Gupta »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asi ... story.html
....The beheading of Ruyati binti Satubi — executed in June for the killing of an allegedly abusive Saudi employer — stirred such revulsion here that even the most strictly observant Indonesian Muslims now ask how the guardians of Islam’s most sacred sites can be so heedless of their faith’s call for compassion.
...
“Mecca is a holy place, but the people who live there are very uncivilized,” said the executed maid’s daughter, Een Nuraeni, who prays regularly and wears a veil pulled tightly over her hair. “There is nothing in Islamic law that says you can torture or rape your housemaid.”

Her mother, desperate for money, had worked for three families in Saudi Arabia since taking her first job there in 1998. On trips home, Nuraeni said, she complained of being spat at in the face, beaten, deprived of food and other mistreatment, but kept going back “for the sake of her children.”
...

Indonesia’s government, complaining that it received no advance notice of Satubi’s execution, recalled its ambassador from Riyadh and announced a moratorium from Aug. 1 on labor exports to the Gulf kingdom. Police set up a special unit at Jakarta’s main airport to enforce the order.

The acrimonious rift between the birthplace of the prophet Muhammad and Indonesia, home to the largest community of his followers, even led to calls for a boycott of Mecca by hajj pilgrims.
arun
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by arun »

X Posting article from the TSP thread.

IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan demonstrated during the holy to Mohammadden’s month of Ramzan / Ramadan by a female suicide bomber wearing a Burka / Burqa:

Burka-clad female suicide bomber detonates in Pakistan

Nor is this a case of this being the first time a Burka / Burqa has provided cover for an act of Islamic Terrorism as the various cases listed below show.

Pakistan, 2011:

Burqa-clad Taliban kill 10 police in Pakistan siege

Pakistan, 2010:

Burqa-clad suicide bomber kills 40 in Pakistan

Iraq, 2010:

54 killed by burqa clad female suicide bomber

Afghanistan, 2008:

Burqa-clad suicide bomber kills 16 in Afghanistan--governor
wig
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by wig »

a tragic tale from 1971
The slender thread by Maj-Gen G G Dwivedi (Retd)
In the absence of effective government machinery in the newly liberated Bangladesh, the mere presence of the Indian Army had a salutary effect to instill confidence amongst the locals as also keep the bad elements at bay.

One day as I was stepping out of my shelter to lead an ‘Area Domination Patrol’, I was informed that some locals were waiting to see me. They were a Hindu family huddled together; middle aged couple, with their teenage daughter and son. Whereas the parents appeared to be deeply shaken, the young girl was rather composed. It was she who narrated the tale of their vows in fluent Hindi.

What emerged was that a self-styled ‘Mukti Bahni’ cadre was coercing the girl to marry him. The individual was in his late forties and already had two wives. He had been persistently luring the girl’s father but the old man had spurned the offer despite abject poverty. The only asset the family possessed was a small piece of land to eke out their livelihood.

During sensitive situations, Mr Mustafa, ( Junior Engineer – Electricity Department) in whose office compound we were camping, was of immense help. With the aggrieved family and Mr Mustafa in toe, we set off, to amicably resolve the issue. The trouble shooter, after initial reluctance, promised to step back. Assuming that the matter was settled, we proceeded on, dropping the family en route at their village.

Their hut appeared to be barren, but for a few aluminum and earthen utensils. When we gave the family some rations, with teary eyes they expressed their gratitude. As we were leaving, the little girl ran inside and came back with a small crumpled paper wrap. “I had bought this for my brother, but would you accept it please?” she mumbled in a choked voice thrusting the packet into my hands. With a reassuring smile, I took it and tucked into my ammunition pouch.

Soon I was deputed on an outstation duty. On my return, I learnt that the same family had come to meet me again. Sensing trouble, the following day I routed my patrol through their village, only to find the abandoned hut. Upon inquiry, the villagers informed us that a few days back the girl had been taken away. The family had left the village the same night.

I was deeply distressed. Suddenly I remembered the small packet. On opening it, I found a string of beads. It was a symbolic gesture of gratitude, trust and faith which had been reposed in me, although I was unable to uphold it for circumstances, well beyond my control.

The following day, we were to leave Bangladesh and head home. Moments before departing, I walked up to the Meghna River which flowed nearby. The sun had almost gone down and the dying rays had set the water ablaze. I pulled out the string and with a sense of remorse slowly lowered it into the river. As the string floated adrift, I stood still, wondering at the ways of nature; subjecting helpless masses to intense misery, their destiny always dangling by a “Slender Thread”!n
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110813/edit.htm#5
ramana
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

We should discuss this book here.
arun
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by arun »

The on-going Mohammadden holy month of Ramadan / Ramzan proves to be no deterrent when it comes to preventing intra-Mohammadden Sunni vs Shia sectarian violence.

A wave of attacks spread all over Iraq that appears to target both Shia and Sunni localities kills 57:

Wave of Attacks in Iraq Leaves at Least 57 Dead
shyamd
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by shyamd »

Did any one catch those articles about how Germany and France are trying to create their own version of islam...?
brihaspati
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

wig wrote:a tragic tale from 1971
The slender thread by Maj-Gen G G Dwivedi (Retd)
In the absence of effective government machinery in the newly liberated Bangladesh, the mere presence of the Indian Army had a salutary effect to instill confidence amongst the locals as also keep the bad elements at bay.

One day as I was stepping out of my shelter to lead an ‘Area Domination Patrol’, I was informed that some locals were waiting to see me. They were a Hindu family huddled together; middle aged couple, with their teenage daughter and son. Whereas the parents appeared to be deeply shaken, the young girl was rather composed. It was she who narrated the tale of their vows in fluent Hindi.

What emerged was that a self-styled ‘Mukti Bahni’ cadre was coercing the girl to marry him. The individual was in his late forties and already had two wives. He had been persistently luring the girl’s father but the old man had spurned the offer despite abject poverty. The only asset the family possessed was a small piece of land to eke out their livelihood.

During sensitive situations, Mr Mustafa, ( Junior Engineer – Electricity Department) in whose office compound we were camping, was of immense help. With the aggrieved family and Mr Mustafa in toe, we set off, to amicably resolve the issue. The trouble shooter, after initial reluctance, promised to step back. Assuming that the matter was settled, we proceeded on, dropping the family en route at their village.

Their hut appeared to be barren, but for a few aluminum and earthen utensils. When we gave the family some rations, with teary eyes they expressed their gratitude. As we were leaving, the little girl ran inside and came back with a small crumpled paper wrap. “I had bought this for my brother, but would you accept it please?” she mumbled in a choked voice thrusting the packet into my hands. With a reassuring smile, I took it and tucked into my ammunition pouch.

Soon I was deputed on an outstation duty. On my return, I learnt that the same family had come to meet me again. Sensing trouble, the following day I routed my patrol through their village, only to find the abandoned hut. Upon inquiry, the villagers informed us that a few days back the girl had been taken away. The family had left the village the same night.

I was deeply distressed. Suddenly I remembered the small packet. On opening it, I found a string of beads. It was a symbolic gesture of gratitude, trust and faith which had been reposed in me, although I was unable to uphold it for circumstances, well beyond my control.

The following day, we were to leave Bangladesh and head home. Moments before departing, I walked up to the Meghna River which flowed nearby. The sun had almost gone down and the dying rays had set the water ablaze. I pulled out the string and with a sense of remorse slowly lowered it into the river. As the string floated adrift, I stood still, wondering at the ways of nature; subjecting helpless masses to intense misery, their destiny always dangling by a “Slender Thread”!n
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110813/edit.htm#5
Rationalization after the deed is done, with emotional surrender to "destiny" is the hall mark of the subconscious dhimmification of the "Hindu" mind facing revolutionary Dantonisque audacity-again audacity- again again audacity of the Islamist.

The "engineer" who helped out in "sensitive issues" if a local muslim - would be very aware of the process by which Islamists targeted Hindu women and appropriated women under every pretext possible, especially where they had military or coercive dominance. It is a very old story in BD region - even before Brit rule. There is a popular musical in BD knows as "Sonai-Madhav" which is actually the story of how a married Hindu lady - Sonai was coveted by one "Bhavna Qazi" and who imprisoned the husband and gave condition that onlee if his wife surrendered to the Qazi's demands would the hubbie be released. No Muslim man would retain the name "Madhava", hence even if Islamist hagiographers and apologists would try to do a taqyia of Sonai being a common Bengali name possibly given to both Hindu and Muslim girls - the story shows the popular acknowledgment of how Muslim men collected wives or concubines.

But the "engineer" was really playing it safe. The subconscious dhimmification on the part of the Indian officer shows up in believing that the "matter" was "amicably settled" - because Islamists will rarely retreat from appropriating the women and properties of non-Muslims whenever they have military dominance and feel that there would be no severe retaliation. Islamist basic obsession with the property and women of non-Muslims onlee is kept repressed when there is fear of retaliation leading to possible erasure of the theological apparatus and leadership. It is a failure to understand and know about the real underlying teachings of the faith as it is delivered to male initiates.

The Hindu girl left to be raped by the so-called cadre, after giving the beads - is all the more psychologically brutalized thinking that the "Hindu" will always fail her after raising hopes, as the "Hindu" will not only ultimately surrender but also perhaps rationalize such surrender.No wonder so many of our eminent Hindu women "intellectuals" are so fanatically "Islamophiles"!

added: perhaps been too harsh on the officer who again perhaps acted to his best intent and sincerity. But it still illustrates what failure to realize the reality of the faith entails. Someone drew wool over my eyes is no excuse - educators lied and misrepresented and Islamophile politicians thundered their state machinery protected campaign of whitewashing is no excuse. It is then proof that the Indian mind cannot pierce the veil of propaganda. Indians in leadership positions like this officer should be in a better position to come closer to truth on their own than the Indians who are simply led.
Last edited by brihaspati on 15 Aug 2011 19:59, edited 1 time in total.
brihaspati
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

wig ji,
perhaps it is better to avoid such stories? Just a request! We have to move on - isn't it? We have immensely qualified and wise farsighted Indian strategic thinkers who are hell-bent on shaking hands with the Islamist heartland - for apparent future immense trade benefits, immense security benefits [all the while D-company move around with impunity, and the islamist heartland sends off money to build bigger and larger Islamist infrastructure on Indian soil, and supplies Jihadis against India, and blasts become a part of life of the ordinary Indian], and the overall wise rashtryia advisory is to forgive and forget and move-on!

Such stories tend to bring in doubts in the mind of the common Indian non-Muslim about the sage rashtryia advisors - which should not be allowed for the benefit of "trade-flows" - benefits which we of course do not really know as to where or whom they are accruing to.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by arun »

arun wrote:The on-going Mohammadden holy month of Ramadan / Ramzan proves to be no deterrent when it comes to preventing intra-Mohammadden Sunni vs Shia sectarian violence.

A wave of attacks spread all over Iraq that appears to target both Shia and Sunni localities kills 57:

Wave of Attacks in Iraq Leaves at Least 57 Dead
Todays round of Ramadan / Ramzan month intra-Mohmmadden violence pitting Sunni and Shia in Iraq climbs to 70:

Nearly 70 killed in attacks across Iraq
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

brihaspati wrote:Rationalization after the deed is done, with emotional surrender to "destiny" is the hall mark of the subconscious dhimmification of the "Hindu" mind facing revolutionary Dantonisque audacity-again audacity- again again audacity of the Islamist.

The "engineer" who helped out in "sensitive issues" if a local muslim - would be very aware of the process by which Islamists targeted Hindu women and appropriated women under every pretext possible, especially where they had military or coercive dominance. It is a very old story in BD region - even before Brit rule.......


The subconscious dhimmification on the part of the Indian officer shows up in believing that the "matter" was "amicably settled" - because Islamists will rarely retreat from appropriating the women and properties of non-Muslims whenever they have military dominance and feel that there would be no severe retaliation. Islamist basic obsession with the property and women of non-Muslims onlee is kept repressed when there is fear of retaliation leading to possible erasure of the theological apparatus and leadership. It is a failure to understand and know about the real underlying teachings of the faith as it is delivered to male initiates.
This reminds me of the description of Muslim rule by A.L. Basham in "The Wonder that was India". A must read for all.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

arun wrote:
arun wrote:The on-going Mohammadden holy month of Ramadan / Ramzan proves to be no deterrent when it comes to preventing intra-Mohammadden Sunni vs Shia sectarian violence.

A wave of attacks spread all over Iraq that appears to target both Shia and Sunni localities kills 57:

Wave of Attacks in Iraq Leaves at Least 57 Dead
Todays round of Ramadan / Ramzan month intra-Mohmmadden violence pitting Sunni and Shia in Iraq climbs to 70:

Nearly 70 killed in attacks across Iraq
Many serious early battles and assassinations by Muslims took place in Ramadan - during the days of the first founders. Badr II was in Ramadan - and the Muslim soldiers did not fast - as per a most convenient revelation that allowed it. Asma Marwan, the female bard who supposedly lampooned Muhammad was assassinated while suckling her child at night as per wishes of Muhammad during Ramadan.

The famous battle where Muhammad dug a trench, borrowing tools from the friendly tribe of Banu Qurayzah - the tribe he would soon deceptively attack and kill the men and enslave the women - again took place in Ramadan.

There is solid precedence, so should not be surprised - and not be taken in by propaganda that Ramadan is somehow exempt or prohibited from war and violence.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

Man, folks need to study Islamist history and life of Muhammad to ensure they are not misled.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by arun »

Even going by the incidents of violence during Ramadan / Ramzan pointed out by Brihaspati dating back to the life time of Mohammad and barring the Asma Marwan incident, this event looks particularly egregious.

One group of Mohammaddens dragging out another group of Mohammaddens praying at a Mosque during a month considered holy by Mohammaddens and killing them execution style is way over the top :shock: .

A case of intra-sectarian Mohammadden violence with the more pure Sunni’s taking out less pure Sunni’s rather than the case of inter-sectarian Mohammadden violence with Shia’s taking out Sunni’s :?: :

7 pulled from Iraqi mosque, killed execution-style
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

arun wrote:Even going by the incidents of violence during Ramadan / Ramzan pointed out by Brihaspati dating back to the life time of Mohammad and barring the Asma Marwan incident, this event looks particularly egregious.

One group of Mohammaddens dragging out another group of Mohammaddens praying at a Mosque during a month considered holy by Mohammaddens and killing them execution style is way over the top :shock: .

A case of intra-sectarian Mohammadden violence with the more pure Sunni’s taking out less pure Sunni’s rather than the case of inter-sectarian Mohammadden violence with Shia’s taking out Sunni’s :?: :

7 pulled from Iraqi mosque, killed execution-style

We are all bystanders onlee.

Whose father, what goes?
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by RamaY »

brihaspati wrote: The Hindu girl left to be raped by the so-called cadre, after giving the beads - is all the more psychologically brutalized thinking that the "Hindu" will always fail her after raising hopes, as the "Hindu" will not only ultimately surrender but also perhaps rationalize such surrender.No wonder so many of our eminent Hindu women "intellectuals" are so fanatically "Islamophiles"!

added: perhaps been too harsh on the officer who again perhaps acted to his best intent and sincerity. But it still illustrates what failure to realize the reality of the faith entails. Someone drew wool over my eyes is no excuse - educators lied and misrepresented and Islamophile politicians thundered their state machinery protected campaign of whitewashing is no excuse. It is then proof that the Indian mind cannot pierce the veil of propaganda. Indians in leadership positions like this officer should be in a better position to come closer to truth on their own than the Indians who are simply led.
No you are not being harsh Bji. This incident and your response reminds me of what MKG said about "Cow Slaughter" in his Hindu Swaraj.

A Hindu want to safe keep the Cow. The Musalman want to kill it. Gandhi says the cow's life is less than Musalman's life. What a pathetic argument. Then what is sanctum for Hindu? Not their lives, families, cattle, properties, nothing. Peace with musalman's is the more important than anything else. That is what MKG left for India.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

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brihaspati wrote:There is solid precedence, so should not be surprised - and not be taken in by propaganda that Ramadan is somehow exempt or prohibited from war and violence.
I don't think Moslems claim Ramazan is a month to abjure warfare, do they? I believe that stipulation applies to the month of Muharram - deriving from h-r-m, same root as haraam (prohibition).

I was reading your other post above about BD Moslems and their systematic grabbing of land and women belonging to Bengali Hindus, whenever they had a dominant position. I have heard about this before, and wondered what the historical profile of Moslems and Hindus in greater Bengal was like. Would appreciate some comments and references on this.

Weren't Hindus the majority of the landed elite in eastern Bengal? How reliable a source of facts (not his theories or opinions) is someone like Nirad C. Chaudhary? I remember reading anecdotes from people like him about Bengali Hindu elites having Moslem concubines, to the extent that some Vaishnav pundits had to proclaim it a religious taboo to have relations with Moslem women since apparently some of these men were converting because of it. So it appears that the exploitation of poor Moslem serf women by Hindus was also a fact at times when they had dominance.

The hardening of the religious divide would only have made mutual resentment and vengeance more pronounced (in addition to the class divide that already existed. To what extent is there an == between the two sides in this respect (as far as the action on the ground is concerned, not "scriptural basis")?

From what I know, most Moslems were converts from the lower castes or tribes of that area who were hardly assimilated into the pre-existing Indic system. They were easy converts for the Persian Sufis who went from town to town, village to village along the river network, connecting at a personal level with the locals, etc. Historically also, there seems to have been a cultural movement from the west (Bihar) towards the east. I read that during a certain period, a Hindu who travelled too far into Bengal had to purify himself upon return. Is this true? Even later, say, during the time of the Chaitanya Vaishnava movement, West Bengal elites would clearly poke fun and look down on the funny accents and lack of sophistication of the easterners. It was also only during that time that Hindu elites would compose religious poetry in the local Bengali language - something that Moslem saints and preachers had first started. In some ways, the Gaudiya Vaishnava movement appears to adopt and adapt the Sufi movement that preceded it. From their religious literature, its also clear that Moslem overlords (of Afghan stock) ruling the area at that time were using force to convert or appropriate resources. There was a Hindu reaction to that when the Bhakti movement reached down and carried the masses with it.

What this tells me is that there existed an alienation between the Hindu elites (who seem to come from the west), and the local masses of Bengal, which appears to be situated in the penumbra of the Vedic heartland. This divide was brought into sharp contrast and complicated further by the introduction of Islamism into the area. Is this a reasonable perspective?
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by svinayak »

Carl wrote:
From what I know, most Moslems were converts from the lower castes or tribes of that area who were hardly assimilated into the pre-existing Indic system.
These kind of statements without facts will create problems.
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/imwat/
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Post by Agnimitra »

^^^ Acharya, the part on Bengal in the book link you posted supports most of the points I made. To just take the point you challenged, the author says (with references):
The social structure of Bengal too was not coalesced. It was an amalgamation of Hindus, non-Hindus, and foreigners.

[...]

Abdul Majid Khan even goes on to say: “In fact India or the land of the Hindus ended in Bengal west of the Bhagirathi.”83 The statement is not quite true, but in the Bengal Census Report of 1872 Beverley has explained in great detail the difficulty of settling who are and who are not Hindus.

[...]

In brief in eastern Bengal, Chandals and Pods and in northern Rajbansis and Koches predominated; the proportion of orthodox Hindus was very small.
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Post by svinayak »

That is mostly a colonial terminology and language. That does not mean that it is correct.
Indian population was very much inside the one big tent.
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Post by Agnimitra »

^^^ Colonial terminology or not, the point is that the orthodox Indics were in a very small minority, and the rest of the masses were very loosely associated with this orthodox core. These became either easy pickings, or at the very least were not an organized phalanx of cultural resistance. In other more mainstream parts of the "big tent", the masses were much more closely interacting with the orthodox core, via their educational systems, festivals and other social transactions.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by svinayak »

Carl wrote:^^^ Colonial terminology or not, the point is that the orthodox Indics were in a very small minority, and the rest of the masses were very loosely associated with this orthodox core. These became either easy pickings, or at the very least were not an organized phalanx of cultural resistance. In other more mainstream parts of the "big tent", the masses were much more closely interacting with the orthodox core, via their educational systems, festivals and other social transactions.
The concept of orthodoxy is a western one with no indic equal
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Post by Agnimitra »

^^^ Come on. Its just that the way we characterize and evaluate orthodoxy and orthopraxy is different from Western religions. But as a form of social organization and vocational specialization we have it, too.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by svinayak »

Not really
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by brihaspati »

Carl wrote:
brihaspati wrote:There is solid precedence, so should not be surprised - and not be taken in by propaganda that Ramadan is somehow exempt or prohibited from war and violence.
I don't think Moslems claim Ramazan is a month to abjure warfare, do they? I believe that stipulation applies to the month of Muharram - deriving from h-r-m, same root as haraam (prohibition).


Bani Asad ibn Khuzaymah lived in Katan near Fayd, in the Nejd. Muhammad, dispatched a force of one hundred men under Abu Salma b. Abd al Asad al-Makhzumi to make a sudden attack on this tribe. On the first day of Muharram, while they were completely unprepared, Abd al-Asad, raided them and took booty. On arrival, the Muslims found three herdsmen with a large herd of camels and goats. They took the camels and goats as booty, and the three herdsmen as prisoners. Then the booty, along with the three captives was brought to Medina. Muhammad took one of the prisoners "for himself" [interpreted as "a personal slave"], distributed the camels and cattle among the raiders after keeping his khams - share of the plunder.



B. Lihyan, a branch of the powerful tribe of Hudhayl (a section of the Quraysh), inhabited the vicinity of Mecca. When Muhammad’s jihad became unbearable, they rallied around their chief, Khalid ibn Sufyan al-Hudhayli at Urana to follow up the victory at Uhud.

Four days after the plunder at Katan (i.e., on the fifth day of Muharram) Muhammad called Abdullah b. Unays to go to Nakhla or Urana on a mission to kill Ibn Khalid. When Abdullah b. Unays wanted a description of his victim, Muhammad replied, “When you will see him, you will be frightened and bewildered and you will recall Satan.” Abd Allah b. Unays said that he was not afraid of Ibn Khalid; but to assassinate him, he (Abd Allah) would have to resort to lies and deceit. He sought Muhammad’s permission to tell lies, and to commit the act of deception. Muhammad promptly gave his permission. He spent eighteen days to find a way to infiltrate ibn Khalid’s newly recruited army. Then he met Ibn Khalid at a resting stop and bowed his head, pretending to be a respectful follower of Ibn Khalid. When Ibn Khalid asked about Abd Allah’s identity, Abd Allah said that he was an Arab and wanted to join as a volunteer in Ibn Khalid’s force against Muhammad. Khalid trusted him and provided him with shelter. Then, once, while conversing, Abd Allah b. Unays walked a short distance with Khalid, and when an opportunity came he struck him with his sword and killed him. After killing Ibn Khalid, he cut off his head, and brought that to Muhammad, and while Muhammad was at his mosque in Medina, threw the head of ibn Khalid at Muhammad’s feet. When he told Muhammad the details of his act of assassination, Muhammad praised him and gave him, as his reward, a stick as a sign between him and Abd Allah on the resurrection day. Abd Allah fastened the stick with his sword, and it remained with him until his death. When he died, the stick was buried with him. Most commentators take the actual assassination as within Muharram.

I was reading your other post above about BD Moslems and their systematic grabbing of land and women belonging to Bengali Hindus, whenever they had a dominant position. I have heard about this before, and wondered what the historical profile of Moslems and Hindus in greater Bengal was like. Would appreciate some comments and references on this.
This would be a huge area and a controversial one. You can start with the narratives of the Islamic Chroniclers for example, and start with Bakhtyiar Nama. I am not sure that the topic of this thread allows us to go too deep into Bengal Islam records. If mods allow it - I am game for it.
Weren't Hindus the majority of the landed elite in eastern Bengal? How reliable a source of facts (not his theories or opinions) is someone like Nirad C. Chaudhary? I remember reading anecdotes from people like him about Bengali Hindu elites having Moslem concubines, to the extent that some Vaishnav pundits had to proclaim it a religious taboo to have relations with Moslem women since apparently some of these men were converting because of it. So it appears that the exploitation of poor Moslem serf women by Hindus was also a fact at times when they had dominance.
Nirad. C. Chaudhary often presented his opinions as facts, and facts as opinions. I would rather not go into his reliability as a source of "facts" for discussion on this thread - as I am not sure it is relevant. Actually, yes, just as in other parts of India, "Hindu" chiefs rather rarely probably did take possession of girls or women who happened to be Muslim. But the anecdotal stories are rare and few and far between compared to the numerous stories of rather "ordinary" clergy/soldiers or lower ranked Islamics to take possession of Hindu women and girls - with Islamic state power or military backing - at a scale scarcely matched by corresponding "Hindu" zamindar/rajah anecdotes. As I suggested, start with the Islamic chroniclers. If their women were being taken by the Hindus - they as "victims" surely must have complained as contemporaries? No? Whereas popular musicals/stories in Bengal area - the so-called folk memory in the "geetikas" invariably mark out all ranks of the islamics as predatory on Hindu women. [The one I referred to is part of Mymensingh Geetika]

But two important factors - again anecdotal - come up in the rare, very rare stories of "Hindus" taking "possession" of Islamic women:

(1) often - in fact almost always - these women were the entertaining professionals, "bais" or dancers, and very often were themselves of Hindu origin and the results of Islamic aggressions, abductions and enslavements. As some "Marathas" claimed elsewhere in India - in many cases they were simply taking "Hindu" women back from "Islamic hands". Rarely were the Islamic claims on upper level Hindu families matched by similar scale, extent and anecdotal instances of Hindu chiefs making concubines or sex-slaves out of high ranking Islamic families. One story is of course that of the supposed affair between Ganesh and the widowed wife of the ex-sultan at the time. But his son had to convert to marry the "high-born" Asman-tara. Hindu zamindars or rajahs taking serf-Muslim women as concubines - is almost non-existent even in anecdotes. They would face severe social problems unlike the muslims. My "blue" connections let me in on many whispered conspiracy theories - about who had Muslim "raakhnis" etc, but at least two I know of were supposed to be actually wives snatched by the muslims and later retrieved - and kept officially as mistresses because society would not accept them back as regular wives.

(2) The very contact of Hindu overlords and "Muslim" underclass would be rare. If you look at the actual records of Islamic narrators claiming victory over the Hindoo in Bengal - there is a huge gap from the obvious crushing defeat and death of Bakhtyiar at the hands of an alliance of North Bengal Chiefs - to the sounds of triumph being made under the Gaur sultans for almost 120 years. All actions appear to be confined in "Bihar" - a muslim term - and which was actually just the western reaches of the then Pala-Sena empire. Even then - as in the case of Sufi Shah Jalal's famous expedition to Sylhet, a single Muslim was used to provoke the local populace by "arranging" to have beef thrown into a temple compound by "accident" and then the ensuing "repression" on a saccha Mussalman was avenged by an army sent from Gaur to which the Sufi adventurer attached himself. The local ruler was defeated and killed peacefully on the battlefield, his daughter Anandi peacefully instantly fell in love with Shah Jalal, was promptly converted and married by Jalal peacefully.

On the other hand, the 120 years gap or the delay in expansion beyond a line to the middle on the North-South and west-east axes in Bengal shows that essentially the Muslim power was confined to the NW quadrant until the early 1400's, and we know that the descendants of the Senas - especially Vishwaroop and Abhiroop based around Bikramanipur [modern Dhaka area] did not let the Muslims expand much beyond this zone until that time. So you would not have "Muslim" "serfs" as numerous outside the N-W quadrant until the arrival of the Mughals. Look at the important places of "conflict" in the Turko-Afghan Bengal narratives - theya re mostly based around in a radius from Gaur and concentrated more towards Bihar. Even the later "pattani" of the south-east [lower than the Karatoa-Mahananda basin -to the east and the south] did not really take off until the Mughals began to give such pattas to often vagabond islamist adventurers or clerics or destitutes to clear the land and settle it. Each of such ventures were supported by Mughal military presence. Thus there would be no Hindu overlords over such "settlements".
The hardening of the religious divide would only have made mutual resentment and vengeance more pronounced (in addition to the class divide that already existed. To what extent is there an == between the two sides in this respect (as far as the action on the ground is concerned, not scriptural bases)?
Which scion of the Marxian dynasty kept records of pre-Islamic Bengal to enable us to define a "class-divide"? Why would there be any "hardening" of religious divide? I was under the impression that Islamics were all peaceful Sufis preaching peacefully - and people here get quite angry when challenged as to the immense philosophical enrichment and contribution to Indic civilization - claims, made on behalf of these islamic preachers! Moreover, pre-modern "Hindus" were all syncretic and never had a violent word of resentment to say about the muslims! Why should there be "resentment" and "vengeance" from either side? But I would let you first wander through the Islamic chroniclers - and then we can start about records from the other side. Oh - there are even inscriptional records of "peace" actually, translated by the same eminent archeologist/linguist who did the "Somnath" stele selectively quoted to establish "syncretism".
From what I know, most Moslems were converts from the lower castes or tribes of that area who were hardly assimilated into the pre-existing Indic system. They were easy converts for the Persian Sufis who went from town to town, village to village along the river network, connecting at a personal level with the locals, etc.
Funny - when you start tracking them down - they seem always to have needed peaceful battles with swords and close proximity of the Sultanate or Mughal military "chownis" - to peacfully convince resisting qufrs. Track Sufi Shah Jalal - and let us know where he came from. Not Persia. Persian or Arab peninsular claim is a must to establish authority and legitimacy in casteless Islam. Do track the actual settler leaderships and the pattas given to them - by whom. Track their origins - I am sure you will find so many interesting stories of their "Sufi" origins.
Historically also, there seems to have been a cultural movement from the west (Bihar) towards the east.


What culture you imply?
I read that during a certain period, a Hindu who travelled too far into Bengal had to purify himself upon return. Is this true?


Any recorded instances of such purifications?
Even later, say, during the time of the Chaitanya Vaishnava movement, West Bengal elites would clearly poke fun and look down on the funny accents and lack of sophistication of the easterners.


Oh - surely that must be the reason so many "west Bengal" elite including Chaitanya himself spent most of his proselytizing career in the looked-down-upon "eastern" lands - in Srihatta and other areas. Just imagine the jest it would add to their success if their own accents and delivery or attitudes differed markedly from the "east"!
It was also only during that time that Hindu elites would compose religious poetry in the local Bengali language - something that Moslem saints and preachers had first started.


Oh really? forget the Brajabuli and charyapada lingo, the softening and rounding and mysticism started from before even Ba(ndr)u [Jyestha/senior] Chandidasa, and even Vidyapati - who roundly lambasts Muslims for throwing up the Hindu elite's daughters in an impromptu slave market whenever they passed through it? Sufis taught them this indigenization of prakrit or religious/faith expressions in local dialect - long after they were actually dead?
In some ways, the Gaudiya Vaishnava movement appears to adopt and adapt the Sufi movement that preceded it. From their religious literature, its also clear that Moslem overlords (of Afghan stock) ruling the area at that time were using force to convert or appropriate resources. There was a Hindu reaction to that when the Bhakti movement reached down and carried the masses with it.
Ah! I was waiting with trepidation for this line. The Gaudyia Vaishnava movement must be detached from its GV Vaishanava roots, its long independent own linguistic development and philosophical meanderings within the North Indian [and especially Southern Bihar/Odra/western Bengal old Jaina-Buddhist-Vaishnava trajectory] and placed as a detached strand suddenly appearing in "reaction" to Sufism and after "Sufism". Sufism has to be reconstructed into a peaceful - of the historically edited types like Shah Jalal the peaceful soldier and adventurer - educator from which "syncretic" Hindus learned their philosophies and lessons.
What this tells me is that there existed an alienation between the Hindu elites (who seem to come from the west), and the local masses of Bengal, which appears to be situated in the penumbra of the Vedic heartland. This divide was brought into sharp contrast and complicated further by the introduction of Islamism into the area. Is this a reasonable perspective?
Palas were "elite" from the "west"?!!! Look at the stories of Daitavishnu - an ancestor of Gopala I. Or Sasanka. The Chandras of middle Bengal and the Varmas of south Bengal. The "Vaarendras" of "Varendri". All "western" immigrants? Local masses were "indigenous"? Many genetically "Australoid" and estimated to have migrated in the late ancient period from the east - after a time when the "west" already consolidated in the ancient "Jaina" centre of Vardhamaana - and the Vaishanva centres of Varendri?

There would be conflicts yes - as in any society with lots of constantly migrating populations. But we have insufficient evidence to rule out any of them as non-local. Moreover an important clue should be the gradual westward movement of ancient Magadha power as evidenced in the westward movement of their capital from the Santhal pargana wilderness of the frontiers of current WB and Bihar and Orissa. Who knows - probably it was a reverse directional cultural flow! Given modern prevalence of Marxian ideas in the zone - wouldn't it be likely that proto-Buddhism rose in the eastern "socialists" and crawled up the valley in subversion? :mrgreen:
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by devesh »

Brihaspati ji,

not trying to be sycophantic or anything but seriously, your presence on this forum takes the level of discussion to a whole another realm. you don't let the usual propaganda go unchecked and consequently it spreads a level of awareness to everybody else, that is absent in common man's life. thank you.

and I am starting to realize that to get a good understanding of Indian history, you can't go through a few "history of India" from so-and-so period to put up valid arguments against the Marxist history. one must go deeper. we have to study the various sources, for the sake of studying them. for the sake of understanding them. not to merely memorize them.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by svinayak »

devesh wrote: for the sake of understanding them. not to merely memorize them.
This is real life, This is our nation and we need to understand everything
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Agnimitra »

Brihaspati ji, thanks for the pointers. The use of violence was certainly prevalent in Bengal, but the relative scale and speed of conversion there appears to perplex scholars, too. Even the book that Acharya ji posted above, by K.S. Lal - who is anything but "Marxist" or an apologist - acknowledges this. What I want to know are reasons for this easy capitulation in Bengal. Other parts of the nation witnessed more systematic violence as well as Sufigari. Yet they showed more spunk and national consciousness when provoked beyond a point, while still being "syncretic" and whatnot. What set Bengal, and especially East Bengal apart?
brihaspati wrote:Oh - surely that must be the reason so many "west Bengal" elite including Chaitanya himself spent most of his proselytizing career in the looked-down-upon "eastern" lands - in Srihatta and other areas. Just imagine the jest it would add to their success if their own accents and delivery or attitudes differed markedly from the "east"!
Actually such cultural anecdotes are related in the Chaitanya Vaishnava literature itself. Yes, Sri Nityananda and his followers did preach in east Bengal and even further. But he is celebrated for his "Mercy" in reaching out to the least qualified members of society, people who had little access to Vedanta, etc.
brihaspati wrote:Ah! I was waiting with trepidation for this line. The Gaudyia Vaishnava movement must be detached from its GV Vaishanava roots, its long independent own linguistic development and philosophical meanderings within the North Indian [and especially Southern Bihar/Odra/western Bengal old Jaina-Buddhist-Vaishnava trajectory] and placed as a detached strand suddenly appearing in "reaction" to Sufism and after "Sufism". Sufism has to be reconstructed into a peaceful - of the historically edited types like Shah Jalal the peaceful soldier and adventurer - educator from which "syncretic" Hindus learned their philosophies and lessons.
No one said that. Is reductio ad absurdum the motif of the argument here? Of course the Gaudiya Vaishnava movement was solidly founded in preceding Indic religious movements originating in other parts of the country, far and near. But in the locale of Bengal itself, there seems to be evidence that the Islamic Sufi missionaries did "pave the way" in some sense for Sri Nityananda's and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's preaching strategies. Wouldn't you agree?
brihaspati wrote:There would be conflicts yes - as in any society with lots of constantly migrating populations. But we have insufficient evidence to rule out any of them as non-local. Moreover an important clue should be the gradual westward movement of ancient Magadha power
Granted. So back to the original line of inquiry - why did Bengal, and especially the eastern half, roll over so easily, a la Sindh but without the extenuating geographical circumstances? Is it an extension of the so-called "tribal belt" that even today is seen as a soft target for conversion activity? Of course, even seen that way, it does not undermine the rashtriyata of pre-Islamic India, because the scope of our civilizational ethos was vast enough to accommodate a spectrum of different socio-cultural subsystems within its body politic. I think it is worth understanding BD/Bengali history, both, for a better historical perspective of what ailed India, as well to understand similar forces and areas being targeted today.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by RajeshA »

Can we please take the discussion of Islam in the Subcontinent elsewhere! This thread is not for that purpose! I know the subject is interesting and indeed necessary, but this thread is not the right thread!

There is for example 'Bengal and its Origin' Thread, or perhaps some other thread.

TIA
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by Supratik »

Carl,

OT but there is a theory by a Yale scholar, that East Bengal was sparsely populated, marshy and mangrove forests (like the Sunderbans) and were colonized by Muslim settlers who in turn converted, expanded the land for cultivation leading to population explosion. The "lower castes converted to Islam theory" is a Nehruvian-Marxist theory. Among many problems it does not explain satisfactorily why there is a geographical divide in the religion of Bengal or why Pakistani Punjabis are mostly forward caste converts (Rajput, Jat, Gujjar, etc), etc, etc.
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Re: Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

Again guys why does every thread has to come back to discussing India and Indian related issues? So please take it elsewhere to the right thread.
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