All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Some very interesting associates have been installed with Anna Hazare ji.
Bharat Bhushan has previously represented terrorists of Mumbai Blast & parliament attacks. Harsh Mander has closenss with 2G family from his early days of working for Dalits in Tribal areas and of course against the fascist Hindus of Gujarat riots, this is before the recent revealations of Ghulam Fai farce. Less said about Swami Agnivesh the better.
This really puts the things in perspective as to why media partners like NDTV have been favorable towards Hazare agitation compared to Baba Ramdev.
We urgently need an informed debate whether a "Jan Lokpal" with power to oversee PM is in larger interest of Nation? If "Jan Lokpal" consists of these worthies then GOI's reluctance for such a bill has some merit.
I think in our anger due to MMS inaction, we should not miss the larger picture of repercussions of a so called "strong" Jan Lokpal.
ramana wrote:Look at Anna Hazare's work. And see if it aligns with India or not.
Currently the loyal opposition led by NDA is either incapable nor effective. Such being the case some one has to oppose and keep the INC loot meisters/election stealers in place. Its not the BJP or the Left nor the Turd force.
+1. Current dispensation is like this -
MMS is acting like he is a non-INC PM
BJP opposition is acting like it is part of the govt.
With all due respect to your argument, lets look at the big picture. I am willing to write on stone " Congress/UPA is too thick skinned to dissolve, they will complete term, No lok pal or similar bill will pass, they will silence them or compromise on their terms, There is no chance that MMS will vacate his seat, he is there for a reason".
In this scenario there are only 3 outcomes, all this anti corruption crusade will vanish, which is anyway useless for India. If that does not happen, Anna and co. will start a party, which will obviously put UPA-3 back in power. The third option is, if he does not start a party, media will conclude that UPA/NDA, all same crap everyone is corrupt (just like they do for terror attacks), so again UPA benefits. The root of all this logic is "Swing vote is needed for opposition to dislodge UPA, but UPA does not need any, they have a solid vote bank always for them, Anna and co. is all about splintering the swing vote".
Even look at Anna's campaign posters, right from Bharat Mata posters everything is designed to attract the middle class swing voter who would otherwise vote against the UPA. The campaign with Bharat Mata in background also would I assume keep the pet vote banks of congis with them.
Now if you believe politics is not a cure for bad politics, then there is an outside solution that Anna can provide (but again on stone, he has been mandated not to do that), bring a revolution like egypt.
Last edited by muraliravi on 16 Aug 2011 19:34, edited 1 time in total.
The UPA and NDA are both corrupt. Just the fact that the NDA also did not do anything for the Lokpal Bill is proof enough. The fact that the NDA is not in power == not being in the hot seat.
The politicians are voted to become our masters and we the serfs.
rajanb wrote:The UPA and NDA are both corrupt. Just the fact that the NDA also did not do anything for the Lokpal Bill is proof enough. The fact that the NDA is not in power == not being in the hot seat.
The politicians are voted to become our masters and we the serfs.
It is a question of who is less corrupt and who will not sell India out.
muraliravi wrote:Is Anna Hazare really helping India or is he a Congress stooge to steal the light away and start a splinter party down the future to divide opposition vote. Except him, all his coterie is made up of the most anti-india group ever ranging from harsh mandar to wajahat habibullah to the bhushans.
The youtube one is very blunt and with full of information.
I strongly beleive this is the masterstroke of Congress party in the making. Create its own opposition and then manage it. Baba Ramdev was in the making and as it backfired they dropped it mid way. In case of Anna, they have all their folks part of the movement.
Calling BJP is ineffective (even if it is one) is not going to help. Even if it is inneffective, if it leads the next government, it is the one that will take down INC. Hence, even though it is innefective and !@#!@#@!#, it is the real enemy of the Congress party and the government of India. AH is a good vehicle to kill the enemy. It seems to be working pretty good and as per plan so far.
rajanb wrote:The UPA and NDA are both corrupt. Just the fact that the NDA also did not do anything for the Lokpal Bill is proof enough. The fact that the NDA is not in power == not being in the hot seat.
The politicians are voted to become our masters and we the serfs.
That is quite pointless, next you will be saying abolish democracy.
Also what NDA did for Lokpal bill was fast track it. Look up its history. It was put in cold storage once more till UPA revived it to act as anti-anti-corruption measure.
Only then were strong arm measures needed.
Congress gets away with murder precisely because of "andher nagri chaupat raja, take ser bhaji take ser khaja" (dark city, stupid king, sweets for rs 1 a kg, vegetables for rs 1 a kg" (also referred to a equalities phenomena) type of statements like the above.
CWC wants MMS to resign so
- it can blame him for all UPA wrongs and put him behind bars.
- This will ensure another INC (not UPA) win for yuvaraj, as only die-nasty can offer clean and stable govt; not even other INC PMs (PVNR and MMS are in jail on corruption charges).
MMS doesn't wanna go that route so is hanging to the seat with the help of NDA
- His sole objective is to save his skin (his legacy if you will) and in the process he doesn't mind coming under LP purview or to vacate the seat for Yuvaraj whenever required.
- Since CWC doesn't want to install yuvraj at this juncture (he would be forced to address some of the problems) as it would be detrimental to 2014 reelection.
The PC group want MMS to go so
(1) they can comeout clean after putting MMS in jail and
(2) they can be the interim PM, until yuvaraj's coronation in 2014.
Rajmata doesn't care about all these games because -
1. She wants to safekeep the money she got ($ value is plummeting and Swiss banks are making noise)
2. She has 400% backing from foreign controlled media and (sic) sekkular brigade
3. EVMs
4. Can come back clean and roll some heads as a final act.
NDA wants MMS to stay in power till 2014 for following reasons
1. it proves that non-dienasty PMs can provide stable govt (PVNR, MMS, ABV)
2. It further increases teh anti-incumbancy wave
3. More and more skeletons will come out of the closet.
4. Who knows, the horse might fly-away
UPA has the numbers to last full term. That was never the issue. However can it govern?
The consensus right now is it cant with all its leaders the target of one scam or scandal or the other.
BJP is doing the right thing in not interfering for if it gets invovled all these jackals/hyenas will unite in the unholy mission of fighting the "nationalist" forces.
Since they don't have the numbers to being a No Confidence Motion(NCM), no point in tilting at wind mills. Best option is to let the UPA a free rein so they expose their venality.
Those who voted for them have to regret it for bringing the worst gang of scoundrels to power. Especially the new money folks..
BTW the rot was there from the UPA I as the ISOR spectrum scam shows.
IMHO, if Anna launches a political party that will be disastrous, otherwise we should be fine in terms of finally nailing out the UPA (maybe now or worst case 2014)
It is possible that two lines of thoughts might be running through INC's brain-trust or war room.
1. Allow the protest.
2. Do not allow the protest.
In both cases there are pro and cons to INC. In either case they would have received inputs from various sources and made calculations and came to the following equation.
Damage to INC, because of AH protest >>>> Damage to INC, by stopping the protest.
They used the same equation and stopped Baba Ramadev's protest. They used something similar and stopped the march to hoist the flag in J&K. So why would a political party go to such extents to stop all protests, and yet claim they are open to peaceful protests? What are the stakes for them to do this?
Or is AH, a INC mole? A CIA mole? A KGB mole? A MOSSAD mole? By now, he has captured the imagination of people across the country and it would be such a jolt to the public if they discover ultimately he is a no-good-fellow. It would destroy the public morale and trust. Also he could be a good diversionary tactic; but the people are behind up and the media is building the frenzy too. So a mole or a diversion does not mean much, because he will be swept by the waves of people. If he turns out to be no-good, I am sure there will be more people who will stand up.
INC ruled the country for 60+years, they are like UK and USA unrelenting to leave power or share the power status with others. Something sinister is going on.
>>>>> - read as Far greater
Last edited by SwamyG on 16 Aug 2011 21:16, edited 1 time in total.
chackojoseph wrote:Anna to be released. Rahul gandhi, P Chidambaram, Sibal and Digvijay should be handed over to International court for Justice for peace crimes.
India should never take it's internal matter to any International forum - See what JLN did by taking the Kashmir question to the UN.
Strengthen India's own institutions - try them within India and pass speedy, exemplary punishment - strengthens the citizens' belief in their own institutions!
On an aside - friends in Bombay say that the streets are filled with people protesting...
muraliravi wrote:Is Anna Hazare really helping India or is he a Congress stooge to steal the light away and start a splinter party down the future to divide opposition vote. Except him, all his coterie is made up of the most anti-india group ever ranging from harsh mandar to wajahat habibullah to the bhushans.
The youtube one is very blunt and with full of information.
I strongly beleive this is the masterstroke of Congress party in the making. Create its own opposition and then manage it. Baba Ramdev was in the making and as it backfired they dropped it mid way. In case of Anna, they have all their folks part of the movement.
Calling BJP is ineffective (even if it is one) is not going to help. Even if it is inneffective, if it leads the next government, it is the one that will take down INC. Hence, even though it is innefective and !@#!@#@!#, it is the real enemy of the Congress party and the government of India. AH is a good vehicle to kill the enemy. It seems to be working pretty good and as per plan so far.
Sir, in all my posts on other threads (this is my first on this thread), I have tried to make the following points.
1. The satisfactory and successful resolution of all the issues that BRF discusses and worries about in its myriad of threads, whether it be Indian defense policy or foreign policy or policy in dealing with insurgents or a range of security issues, not to mention economic and social issues, depends very heavily on the health of India's internals such as its society, politics and economy. Unless Indians make their internals healthier, none of the externals are ever going to play out in India's favor, as BRF posters or any nationalist Indian would like them to be.
2. In order of India to have healthy internals, a large number of Indian individuals have to be healthy individuals, I am not even saying a majority, but sufficient numbers to form a critical mass. By healthy, I mean, emotionally healthy and having their hearts and minds in the right place and most importantly who understand that sacrifices in the short term are needed to build anything lasting, as opposed to short term gratification. However, this should not be an excuse for vested interests to do nothing and just mislead people while they rob the society left and right. While short term sacrifices are needed, they are needed from everybody and the progress has to be clear and visibly trend up as opposed to treading in water sort. Most importantly healthy individuals mean having the ability to find common ground and be less argumentative. In a nutshell, a healthy individual or a healthy society is "LESS CORRUPT", using corruption in a larger sense of the word, not merely bribery.
3. I have also contended that I am extremely pessimistic that India has that critical mass of healthy individuals with the energy and missionary zeal to make the sacrifices necessary to fix the Indian internals. Therefore, I find most of the posts on this forum, not all, basically wishful thinking or outpouring of justified frustration with the status quo and how India reacts to the externals and even the internals. I dont see much good happening for India going forward.
4. This Anna Hazare episode and the previous Babaji episode should bring what I say above in very sharp and clear focus. The demonization of Anna Sb and Babaji by the powers that be, the willingness of the media to play along with that demonization and large sections of the population that will benefit if these movements succeed, themselves scoring self goals by stupidly accepting, believing and articulating the demonization of the powers that be. It is understandable for people whose interests will be hurt by Babaji or Anna Sbs movement to wish to marginalize their movements, but how do we explain the vast majority of those people who participate in this demonizing, who have everything to gain from such movements succeeding, at least in the medium and long term ? I say, the answer is that these large number of individuals are "unhealthy" or "sick" in a clinical sense and therefore, they collectively make the Indian society sick, not just in this one instant, but every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every year, in each and every dealing within our society, most of our people act in this kind of irrational and unhealthy way, with everyone, but each other in particular. We behave in a self-destructive way ALL the time, in almost all of our societal interactions. How can such a society make progress ?
5. Yet India is better than so many other places, but not as many places as we would like to think. The reason, India still moves forward somewhat in fits and starts, unevenly, like a rickety train, is because there are still a very few "healthy" and "normal" individuals left in our society, but too few, like Babaji and Anna Sb (and by normal and healthy I do not mean flawless or Godlike), just normal humanbeings, and millions of others, who work hard, day in and day out, who make the trains run on time, the airplanes flying, the factories working and working very hard like mules to carry the burden of the rest of the masses of the society.
6. I am afraid, over history, this number of healthy individuals in the Indian society has been steadily decreasing and is now at extremely dangerously low level and if we lose another few millions to this sickness, which we inevitably will given the perverted rewards system in India, we will have stepped off the cliff, the precipice so to speak, and then there will be nothing but the bottomless pit, from which we will never be able to extricate ourselves. What will we find in that bottomless pit ? Maybe, fundamentalist Islam ? I dont know, sir.
More and more of people on this forum are getting influenced by the very nature of paki thinking becasue of long time following of paki news. Calling AH as mole or stooge of INC and questioning his motives just makes me wonder the quality of peopl's thinking on this forum. Are we the same who have been so brilliant in analysing international and stragegic geopolitics and so naive to start another consiparacy theory on a simple man from our country ?
To those who have been questioning AH - my humble request - have you read his profile ? Do you know what he's been doing for last 30+ years ? Do you know Arvind Kejriwal's profile ? Have you guys actually been "on ground" in India rather just on internet forums ? Have anyone of you visited Ralegan Siddhi and Anna's fight so far ?
Makes me wonder, seriousness of thought processo of posters here.
Last edited by NikhilB on 16 Aug 2011 20:36, edited 1 time in total.
First PM along with Rahul, Pranab and Chidu discusses the strategy to taclle Anna on Aug 15th. They go full blown to abuse Anna in all aspects. The media helps in developing the Anna frenzy. The ITVity crowds of Mumbai, Delhi, B'lore thought they are doing Salt Satyagraha for India's second independence day. The new Gandhiji gets arrested and vande mataram sang all over again.
Now Rahul Gandhi the PM is waiting decided to soothe the population with another type of Gandhian touch. Now tell me the if the educated of India are not dhimmis in beleiving this Anna movement is not an orchestration what else is the conclusion.
NEW DELHI: A Rahul Gandhi's snub in a closed-door meeting with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and other Congress leaders in the AICC headquarters here on Monday has chastised the party leaders from making any personal attacks on crusader Anna Hazare arrested here on Tuesday.
In his very first meeting with the party leaders in absence of his mother Sonia Gandhi away in New York convalescing after a surgery, Rahul is reported to have objected to the party launching a no-holds-barred attack on Hazare on the ground that he was himself indicted for corruption in an inquiry report by retired Supreme Court judge P B Sawant.
His query was simple: "Has Anna lost right to protest against corruption because of the indictment? Then each one of us will have to first declare to have not indulged in even a small corruption before talking against corruption."
The impact of his blunt talk could be seen in nobody in the party making any uncharitable remarks against Hazare and company unlike two days ago when party spokesman Manish Tewari accused them of trying to bring instability in the country and dubbed them as "armchair fascists, overground Maoists, closet anarchists...lurking behind forces of right reaction and funded by invisible donors whose links may go back a long way abroad."
Another Congress spokesman Abishek Manu Singhvi taking the briefing on Tuesday skirted all questions and refused to comment whether the party still believes that Hazare is corrupt. He was pointedly asked to comment on Tewari's outburst against Hazare on Sunday and whether the party still stands by the Justice Sawant report indicting the crusader.
At the GoM interaction with the media, HRD Minister Kapil Sibal went to the extent of asserting that "we are on Anna's side and Anna is on our side as far as fight against corruption goes." He said the disagreement was over team Anna's insistence to accept its Bill and no other Bill. Home Minister P Chidambaram and I&B Minister Ambika Soni said the government rather shared Hazare's concern on corruption.
The three ministers came for the media interaction after a strategic session with Rahul Gandhi that was also attended by Pranab Mukherjee and the impact could be seen from the way they just stopped short of glorifying Hazare in all respects.
Ambika Soni said Hazare was a "reputed person" and the government trusted his word on protest being peaceful. However, no one can guarantee that there can not be any problem when such a large number of people gather at a place as people on the dais do not have control on each and every person participating in an agitation, she said.
She felt that the crusader may have been ill-advised by his colleagues like former IPS officer Kiran Bedi and senior lawyer Prashant Bhushan "who understand the law." Kiran Bedi has been part of Delhi Police for long and hence knows how it handles public agitations, she said.
chackojoseph wrote:Anna to be released. Rahul gandhi, P Chidambaram, Sibal and Digvijay should be handed over to International court for Justice for peace crimes.
India should never take it's internal matter to any International forum - See what JLN did by taking the Kashmir question to the UN.
Strengthen India's own institutions - try them within India and pass speedy, exemplary punishment - strengthens the citizens' belief in their own institutions!
On an aside - friends in Bombay say that the streets are filled with people protesting...
Bhai, its not a serious comment. So is An(n)aconda Party.
The visuals provided during the entire day, from 8AM to 9:30 PM have been all breath-taking, awe inspiring, without precedent, and historical.More power to Anna, and let a proper Lok Pal Bill coem into force, someday,soon.
sum wrote:^^ All channels ( esp INC munna channels) are now claiming that RG spoke forcefully to MMS and got Anna released!!
Got to admire the INC for the never-ending effort to ensure that Gandhi khandaan is seen in good light and seen as the knight in shining armour!!
So, let me get this straight, Sir.
In the "largest democracy in the world", the Prime Minister personally can get someone arrested and then when he decides or is pursuaded by someone, presumably Rahul Gandhi in this case, he can unilaterally get that someone released. So, where is the rule of law ? The IPC ? The due process ? Judiciary ?
all this means one thing - Yuvaraj is moving in as the PM-designate in 2014. I would welcome him finally stepping into the Govt.
I would rather having him doing ANYTHING worthwhile ( other than photo-op yatras) before directly plonking onto PM gaddi in '14 ( sadly see no other course since INC has successfully destroyed NaMo credibility nationwide and am sure that the dirty tricks dept ( read small riots, well televised moral policing by "fringe saffron loony groups", MNS violence etc) will be gearing up to start action by 2013 end by which time even this AH thing will be forgotten.
the Prime Minister personally can get someone arrested and then when he decides or is pursuaded by someone, presumably Rahul Gandhi in this case, he can unilaterally get that someone released. So, where is the rule of law ? The IPC ? The due process ? Judiciary ?
Sounds more to me like an authoritarian state.
When the "someone" is from the G-khandaan, even the Himalayas can be moved aside in Desh.
What the brainless INC (due to their piskologically damaged brains) doesn’t realise is that the whole movement is about Anti-corruption. Not about Anna Hazare. Annaji has offered himself as a medium to bring us back on the path to freedom and a proper growth which benefits all classes of societies. Where the taxes we pay are used for the public good. Not the Parliamentarians good!
The past few days while watching the news channels and the streams of parliamentarians of various colours participating, it struck me to look for an agreement across political colours.
I came across one.
That the Anti Corruption movement was not democratic and weakening democratic institutions.
The question that arose in my mind was that didn’t these very articulate parliamentarians ever realise that such a popular movement was a result of their having weakened the very same institutions that they were accusing a public outcry of weakening? Catalysed by Annaji.
I then realised that my line of thinking was correct and due to a couple of points where the INC and the opposition disagreed.
The vociferous opposition asking why MMS was not willing to be under the Lokpal Bill? But is the Bill about MMS? Is MMS the PM in perpetuity? The issue is that the PM, whomever he maybe, would be under the Lokpal Bill.
The second point was when the opposition derided the statement from the INC that it was the Delhi Police who had passed such restrictive conditions on the 16th August movement. That the very learned opposition averred that the Central Government could step in
H U L L O! The constitution was thrown against the INC when Chidu suggested that the Centre could step in to give relief to the senior police officers in Gujarat.
It just made me happy about a personal decision I had taken after the 1993 riots and the bomb blasts in Mumbai. Never to vote for a party, but try and judge who the best candidate was for the welfare of the people in my constituency and vote for that candidate.
Regardless of the colour or creed of our current political parties, all of them have weakened democracy. All of them are piskologically defunct.
Last edited by rajanb on 16 Aug 2011 21:17, edited 1 time in total.
NikhilB wrote:More and more of people on this forum are getting influenced by the very nature of paki thinking becasue of long time following of paki news. Calling AH as mole or stooge of INC and questioning his motives just makes me wonder the quality of peopl's thinking on this forum. Are we the same who have been so brilliant in analysing international and stragegic geopolitics and so naive to start another consiparacy theory on a simple man from our country ?
To those who have been questioning AH - my humble request - have you read his profile ? Do you know what he's been doing for last 30+ years ? Do you know Arvind Kejriwal's profile ? Have you guys actually been "on ground" in India rather just on internet forums ? Have anyone of you visited Ralegan Siddhi and Anna's fight so far ?
Makes me wonder, seriousness of thought processo of posters here.
++400% Makes me wonder, like we suspect Paki lurkers here, there maybe political lurkers here to whom a party is more important that the country and the people.
in Tribal areas and of course against the fascist Hindus of Gujarat riots, this is before the recent revealations of Ghulam Fai farce. Less said about Swami Agnivesh the better.
