LCA News and Discussions

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 05 Aug 2011 09:27

AdityaEngineer sahib, the tape laying Kartik ji is referring to is called Composite Tape Laying (CTL), which involves laying tapes of composite material in criss-cross fashion to manufacture a composite wing skin or fuselage piece. He isn't referring to the punched tapes used to program an NC machine.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Aug 2011 09:49

The ability of HAL to be able to standardize manufacturing practices fro LCA has been mentioned by many people - and was discussed on here after Aero India 2011. Problem is when Kota Harinarayana reminisces about a Mumbai workshop who could machine a complex part perfectly for LCA TD it makes a memorable story - but getting the same part to be reliably made in numbers is a different ball game. Does that Mumbai workshop have the capacity to do that? Can quality be assured? If the technique is a secret patented/non patented process of that workshop will they share it with an industrial house that may be willing to take on the job?

These are the hurdles that will need to be crossed for LCA serial production.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 05 Aug 2011 10:30

AdityEngineer, the problem was already acknowledged by none other Program Director to the media and steps are currently taken to rectify as Tejas moves towards mass production. Pls Google for the links.

jai · Post by **jai** » 05 Aug 2011 12:22

shiv wrote:
kshirin wrote:Can BR experts pl tell me whether the LCA is indigenously developed or not?
Yes and no.

Just read the CAG audit report, which shows cost over runs and delays over the Kaveri engine, and final lurch towards SNECMA after rejecting their 2001 offer for collaboration. But have we mastered the other technologies, airframe etc.
Yes and no.

How did it fly at Aero India,
It appeared on the left of the runway and went very slowly. I thought it was R-day parade. Pilot thinking differently. Then it did 400% about turn and went fast fast fast and up up up - very farly, very nearly, uply, downly and roundly until landing caused by the ejection of a "phool" from its - peechey ka - you know - woh kaala kaala <sharam >

Here is a vediyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkM0ZHMv7Gk

was it with a foreign engine?

Yes. But poor quality because touched by Indian hands.

Very confused because media is saying we have been successful, and Govt audit report says not.
It is a fly-by-wire fighter that is ready for induction into the IAF. It has the highest proportion of composites of any other fighter. An enlarged Mark 2 is being planned. The trainer version is flying. The Navy is helping to build and test a naval version and may need 80 of them. But it is not successful because too many people are confused. Enemy is not confused. They are building short range nuke missiles and aircraft carrier killer missiles to confuse the LCA.

Can someone pl help out?
Any time. What help is needed? PAN card? Drivers' licence?

Classic Shiv

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 05 Aug 2011 15:26

^^ROFLOL!!!

AdityaEngineer · Post by **AdityaEngineer** » 05 Aug 2011 16:40

@pratikdas Sorry for misunderstanding the Said term but CNC manufacturing is more related to metal parts Eg landing gear,control surface hinges,servos.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 05 Aug 2011 16:51

shiv wrote:
kshirin wrote: <snip>

How did it fly at Aero India,
It appeared on the left of the runway and went very slowly. I thought it was R-day parade. Pilot thinking differently. Then it did 400% about turn and went fast fast fast and up up up - very farly, very nearly, uply, downly and roundly until landing caused by the ejection of a "phool" from its - peechey ka - you know - woh kaala kaala <sharam >

Here is a vediyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkM0ZHMv7Gk

was it with a foreign engine?
Yes. But poor quality because touched by Indian hands.

Very confused because media is saying we have been successful, and Govt audit report says not.
It is a fly-by-wire fighter that is ready for induction into the IAF. It has the highest proportion of composites of any other fighter. An enlarged Mark 2 is being planned. The trainer version is flying. The Navy is helping to build and test a naval version and may need 80 of them. But it is not successful because too many people are confused. Enemy is not confused. They are building short range nuke missiles and aircraft carrier killer missiles to confuse the LCA.

Can someone pl help out?
Any time. What help is needed? PAN card? Drivers' licence?

love reading shiv rebuttals. hilarious

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Aug 2011 17:07

the funny thing is such questions keep on popping up! wondering if they all are MPTP aams.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Aug 2011 18:13

not everyone spends every waking moment on BRF, so people join discussion down stream and then we repeat the cycle, kshirin is actually asking important questions about the structure of the high tech industry in india... which still has a long way to go
adityaengineer adds to the key question - which (blows own trumpet) i raised a few months back... we have the science, but we don't yet have the 'production engineering'; what are we doing to build that?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Aug 2011 20:26

Need those CNC machines!

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 05 Aug 2011 22:25

shiv wrote:The ability of HAL to be able to standardize manufacturing practices fro LCA has been mentioned by many people - and was discussed on here after Aero India 2011. Problem is when Kota Harinarayana reminisces about a Mumbai workshop who could machine a complex part perfectly for LCA TD it makes a memorable story - but getting the same part to be reliably made in numbers is a different ball game. Does that Mumbai workshop have the capacity to do that? Can quality be assured? If the technique is a secret patented/non patented process of that workshop will they share it with an industrial house that may be willing to take on the job?

These are the hurdles that will need to be crossed for LCA serial production.

Somehow many government dept and people have a rather hazy idea about the capabilities of the Indian private sector. many think that the private sector cannot meet the quality standards of the PSUs & OFBs (sic). They also think that the private sectors "may leak the defence secrets" and hence cannot be trusted.

Let us start by giving the private sector a "level playing field".

There are many on BRF who actually believe that the private sector can do everything under the sun.

The truth is somewhere in-between

Kersi

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 05 Aug 2011 22:27

shiv wrote:
kshirin wrote:Can BR experts pl tell me whether the LCA is indigenously developed or not?
Yes and no.

Just read the CAG audit report, which shows cost over runs and delays over the Kaveri engine, and final lurch towards SNECMA after rejecting their 2001 offer for collaboration. But have we mastered the other technologies, airframe etc.
Yes and no.

How did it fly at Aero India,
It appeared on the left of the runway and went very slowly. I thought it was R-day parade. Pilot thinking differently. Then it did 400% about turn and went fast fast fast and up up up - very farly, very nearly, uply, downly and roundly until landing caused by the ejection of a "phool" from its - peechey ka - you know - woh kaala kaala <sharam >

Here is a vediyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkM0ZHMv7Gk

was it with a foreign engine?

Yes. But poor quality because touched by Indian hands.

Very confused because media is saying we have been successful, and Govt audit report says not.
It is a fly-by-wire fighter that is ready for induction into the IAF. It has the highest proportion of composites of any other fighter. An enlarged Mark 2 is being planned. The trainer version is flying. The Navy is helping to build and test a naval version and may need 80 of them. But it is not successful because too many people are confused. Enemy is not confused. They are building short range nuke missiles and aircraft carrier killer missiles to confuse the LCA.

Can someone pl help out?
Any time. What help is needed? PAN card? Drivers' licence?

Now I am totally confused

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Aug 2011 23:21

AdityaEngineer wrote:@rajkumar Although this is my Opinion his might be same as well-That manuf. Prac. Need to shift gears when transferring product from TD stage to SP stage.@Kartik The tapes you are talking about are for NC machines while it is time to shift to faster CNC component manu. unit and assembling.Warm Regards!

I'm not referring to tapes on NC machines- I'm referring to tapes used for composite skin manufacturing. as opposed to composite fabrics (commonly used in manufacture of composite panels), composite tapes are unidirectional in nature and mostly these tapes are used in manufacture of wing skins.

See this automated tape laying machine video

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Aug 2011 23:32

I guess despite his name, he really isn't into that aspect of engineering.

I understood yuor point was about tape laying machines for composite structures.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 05 Aug 2011 23:41

^^Is it possible that MMRCA winner can provide these machines for Tejas too?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Aug 2011 00:04

Manish_Sharma wrote:^^Is it possible that MMRCA winner can provide these machines for Tejas too?

there are other companies that can do that. HAL doesn't need EADS or Dassault to provide this technology since its not something that cannot be obtained easily from the engineering market anyway.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 06 Aug 2011 03:43

India’s Tejas ready for IAF induction in March 2012
FlightGlobal

1,659 flight tests of the Tejas have been conducted, said defence minister AK Antony. The Indian Air Force has ordered forty Mk 1s, 20 with "initial operating clearance standard" and 20 with "final operation clearance standard", he added.

He also discussed the costs of the programme. In 2001, this was estimated at Indian rupees (Rs) 33 billion ($740 million), but cost overruns added an additional Rs24.8 billion to this.

"The additional cost was to meet the expanded scope of the programme, increased cost of materials, manpower, and maintenance of facilities," he said.
Separately, a two-seat prototype of a naval version of the Tejas Mk I aircraft could have its first flight within the next three months.

The General Electric F404-IN20-powered aircraft is undergoing ground integration tests at HAL's facility in Bengaluru, said a senior official involved in the programme.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2011 05:36

Kersi D wrote: Somehow many government dept and people have a rather hazy idea about the capabilities of the Indian private sector. many think that the private sector cannot meet the quality standards of the PSUs & OFBs (sic). They also think that the private sectors "may leak the defence secrets" and hence cannot be trusted.

Let us start by giving the private sector a "level playing field".

There are many on BRF who actually believe that the private sector can do everything under the sun.

The truth is somewhere in-between

Kersi

True. The former is the "Do not take photos of aircraft flying overhead" mentality and the latter is the "Lockheed Martin can do it so why not Birla". Definitely the truth is in between.

AdityaEngineer · Post by **AdityaEngineer** » 06 Aug 2011 07:56

Is there any news on Which softwares are being used for CFD analysis of Tejas in aspects like Forced Vortex,Wakes,AoA etc.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 06 Aug 2011 11:44

I believe they write their own codes. Most aerospace companies do. Don't think they use commercial one's except for comparison of results.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Aug 2011 18:29

Graduation of private sector into gov contracts should be done . Start by hiring private consultants, on defence jobs. Then slowly get the accustomed to the process, and regulations and security related aspects. Give them masan type security clearance, validity, areas, etc., and make them specialty premium job., then we have established market for this. Then comes sub contracting and outsourcing and finally, total privitization at a later stage.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Aug 2011 19:26

AdityaEngineer wrote:Is there any news on Which softwares are being used for CFD analysis of Tejas in aspects like Forced Vortex,Wakes,AoA etc.

Curious to know why you want to know this?

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 06 Aug 2011 19:34

Regarding the comment about Tejas manufacturing by HAL:

Wasnt there a report some years back on BR which stated that the quality control for assembly line manufacture at HAL was so bad that each aircraft of a particular type (Ajeet?) had its own "schematics" book (forget the exact term, but something similar to Haynes series of automobile books) whereas the norm is that there is only one book for the entire type. This was because the QC and tolerances that HAL built parts to were not good enough so that each aircraft that was manufactured was different and there were small amounts of jhugaad that were done to get the whole thing work. The books documented each aircraft's deviation from the standard...

This was many years ago. Dont know what the situation is now.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Aug 2011 21:26

shukla wrote:India’s Tejas ready for IAF induction in March 2012
FlightGlobal

1,659 flight tests of the Tejas have been conducted, said defence minister AK Antony. The Indian Air Force has ordered forty Mk 1s, 20 with "initial operating clearance standard" and 20 with "final operation clearance standard", he added.

He also discussed the costs of the programme. In 2001, this was estimated at Indian rupees (Rs) 33 billion ($740 million), but cost overruns added an additional Rs24.8 billion to this.

"The additional cost was to meet the expanded scope of the programme, increased cost of materials, manpower, and maintenance of facilities," he said.
Separately, a two-seat prototype of a naval version of the Tejas Mk I aircraft could have its first flight within the next three months.

The General Electric F404-IN20-powered aircraft is undergoing ground integration tests at HAL's facility in Bengaluru, said a senior official involved in the programme.

Which will be the first base to have ? Sulur is an operational conversion base.

K

AdityaEngineer · Post by **AdityaEngineer** » 06 Aug 2011 22:29

My Point is dev. Of defense products goes this way-First ADA needs to develop Tejas completely (so that it can get high no. Of orders from IAF and not TOKEN inductions),by that time another firm(HAL) should not only manu. The TD but also establish produ. Lines for speedy induction.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Aug 2011 23:31

That is where Tatas et al should invest in.. send out a study team to LM, Boeing, Dassault and Sukhoi, and get detailed plan for production engineering setup, and improve on quality and aerodynamics, and stealth. Stealth is one area where private sector can contribute.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 07 Aug 2011 18:39

Now that IAF is commenting about replacing Mig-21's with Tejas starting next year, why don't they go for > 8/yr production capacity by considering exports to Vietnam and Cambodia for starters replacing their aging Mig-21 fleets?

higher production capacity also allows for fast tracked replacement of all Mig-21's in the IAF

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Aug 2011 09:34

Only 15 more days left for the LSP7 to fly

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 Aug 2011 09:55

AdityaEngineer wrote:My Point is dev. Of defense products goes this way-First ADA needs to develop Tejas completely

It will never happen. By same logic, if EF or Rafale were to do the same thing, they wouldn't have been inducted. So is Grippen.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 15 Aug 2011 11:38

DIAT system soon to monitor in-flight health of Tejas Mk-II

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 15 Aug 2011 13:35

karan_mc wrote:DIAT system soon to monitor in-flight health of Tejas Mk-II

I believe for Rambha, a South African system was used for the systems health monitoring? So we are indigenizing this tech, good to hear.

Vikram W · Post by **Vikram W** » 15 Aug 2011 14:24

Half of august is gone.

I will throw in my hat and hereby volunteer to be the official bookie on odds that LSP 7 will fly by august end.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Aug 2011 21:58

And the stakes? If I were a betting man, I'd bet that August will slide by and no LSP-7 first flight will occur.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Aug 2011 22:11

Yepp what we will have is a press release at the end of August saying we will fly it by Oct. LSP7 is not flying Aug2011(the famed anti jinx mantra may work when nothing else works

Vikram W · Post by **Vikram W** » 15 Aug 2011 22:58

Kartik wrote:And the stakes? If I were a betting man, I'd bet that August will slide by and no LSP-7 first flight will occur.

The winner shall get the interwebs, and obligatory upboats.

I particularly remember getting flamed when I said last december that the program is going too slow and the instead of a first flight of the NLCA we got to see a mere roll out. Further after the LSP 5 we were supposed to see production going at one plane a month , thats not happening either. Can we take anything at face value from the gods of LCAs. And this is not a troll attempt by me, I'm just miffed at the rate the powers that be give us dates, and those dates go by without anyone batting an eye and new dates are promptly announced .

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 18 Aug 2011 10:24

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1667 Test Flights successfully. (10-Aug-2011)
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-291,LSP1-67,LSP2-175,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-34)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1662 Test Flights successfully. (27-Jul-2011)
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-288,LSP1-67,LSP2-174,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-33)

where are lsp7, nlca and lsp6

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Aug 2011 11:11

flippin 'ell. This is going way too slow.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Aug 2011 11:14

Thats 5 flights in 15 days and 3 of them from PV-3. Damn we jingos would love a much faster pace.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Aug 2011 12:52

I am not sure how many export orders of Tejas can be achieved,as let's not forget who makes the engine (USA),apart from other systems and weaponry.Tejas when touted to other "turd world" nations will have to overcome the US's sanction regime on the engine especially if it is going to be in competition with any F-16s. I do not know if the IAF/MOD thought of this factor when they chose the GE engine over the EJ one,which also comes with TVC.Maybe some DRDO boffin has assured them that Kaveri will come in "dead on time" for the export versions!

This "engine factor" is going to limit the countries to whom we can sell the LCA.It is why the first priority should've been given to developing a series of indigenous engines for the IAF,which would also have naval applications, just as GE engines are being used in some IN warships,especially with the experience of the HF-24.I don't know why we seem not to have taken this crucial step as every future aircraft,UAV.UCAV,helo,etc.,will be forever dependent upon a foreign engine.Even if Kaveri eventually succeeds,it will be just ONE example when our equirements range from basic trainers,IJTs,AJTs,LCAs AMCAs,light,medium,attack helos,etc.,etc.When we are spending upwards of $50-100 billion on imports,why can't the GOI/MOD establish a truly comprehnsive engine development entity,plus all the facilities required for development and testing at B'lore or elsewhere.In the FGFA JV with Russia,there is going to be considerable TOT and joint development,including a new engine.Perhaps we could leverage that factor into the AMCA programme too and use it as part of a new aero-engine centre within the country.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Aug 2011 13:00

US will not mind export of Tejas to Vietnam