The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 18 Aug 2011 10:57

devesh wrote:are we forgetting the definition of kamikaze?

suicide missions undertaken to bolster and defend one's organization. not to destroy them...

It may be organization or ideology. In case of ideology it would be dharmic or self conscious. You may ask what happened to those values for the last few decades. Alone they would have ended up in jails or in mental asylums. Probably, they are waiting for the right time to vent up their frustration. Sab maya only.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 18 Aug 2011 11:01

^^^
highly dubious argument. all these old guys benefited from their dependence on dynasty. it is a parasitic relationship. their supposed grievances have nothing when compared to the privilege and benefits they've siphoned off and continue to get. there is no way they will mess with that at this age.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2011 11:20

they have probably been instructed to go out and fight hard, swing hard blows and take the fallout if any.

at that moment, when the INC reputation would be in tatters, the curtain would lift to show a humane Yuvraj who says "enough of these draconian measures, let us apply a healing touch, let us all be indians, out with these old discredited people, we need change...."

so after he duly gets elected as PM, a change of guard takes place, oldies out, the next gen of psychophants get brought in, Mataji goes into semi-retirement to pen her memoirs (which would not be published)/manages the vast holdings of the Rgandhi trust/hobnobs with NAC faithful etc...while yuvaraj rules as the uncontested Kshatrap - the king of kings. perhaps like teenage akbar had bairam khan they will keep P'da around for a time, then get rid of him too.

folks like diggy raja will be thrown to the mob to tear apart when the time comes to sacrifice a few pawns. MMS can expect not to be thrown to mob, but total retirement and a iron promise extracted not to open his mouth ever, same for PC and other seniors.

that I think is the current plan.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Aug 2011 11:20

"Time to pack your bags..." ,as a member wrote in an above post.The statement that the Congress might get into serious trouble is rather late,it IS in deep trouble.It has a totally impotent PM,now seen by the entire country as the godfather of all the scams,through his deliberate acts of ommission and commission,in protecting the scamsters and ignoring his own ministers' advice and warnings of the same.He is also seen as an appeaser in the finest trraditions of Neville Chamberlin,when it comes to combating Paki terror.Uncle Sam's man in India "Uncle Scam",has also allowed US interests to penetrate the corridors of power,try and derail our independent foreign policy and steal the nation's silverware.Closer home,his total indifference to the massive galloping inflation and disparity of wealth between the haves and have-nots,and obsession with his now infamous N-deal that is proving to be a dud deal,where promises to India are being broken,and "growth" ,as Mani Shankar Iyer rightly said,"India is proospering,but Indians are not",has seen him lose the plot and the Congress/UPA almost the entire urban misddle class who hold with them the "swing factor" in any election.

Unless Dr.Singh quits-he has lost the plot completely,and the faster he goes the better the nation will be.His rudderless leadership-where there appear to be two hands at the wheel,according to many reports,and insipid words,when he speaks,for most of the time looking sombre and ill at ease especially right now, where he looks like a stranded jellyfish ,is taking the UPA and Congress into the abyss,from where it might struggle to recover.His colleagues too inspire little confidence,and appear to be more fit for the circus tent as buffoons with their outrageous and hilarious statements.
Manish Tiwari's gem that "Anna is drenched in corruption" and the other bufoon who said that the "US was behind it" ,reminds one of the Congress" famous "hidden hand" during Emergency days! Time to email Uncle Scam, "Quit Office",as was done with the Raj with the "Quit India" movement.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Aug 2011 11:49

विदेशी हाथ (foreign hand) was very famous blame tool during IG's time.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 18 Aug 2011 11:56

sugriva wrote: It is precisely the above that gives me the shivers about the doofusses who are supporting the AH movement. So this guy doesn't jump signals and bothers to pay all his taxes not because he is a conscientious citizen but because he is afraid of the assorted Pandus in Hong Kong. Were Hong Kong to be less vigorous in its pursuit of the tax evaders our man would be gladly doing what he did in India.

So in effect he is asking for a police state in India.

You can't make your 100% population ethical and law biding. You need system that punishes severely if people break law. In my opinion It is this fear that stops many people from breaking the law in developed country. Of-course we also need an environment where ethics are injected right from the childhood. But ethics alone is not sufficient.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Aug 2011 12:24

It is this fear that stops many people from breaking the law in developed country.

Like the people did it in developed England recently.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Aug 2011 12:29

R_Kumar wrote: You can't make your 100% population ethical and law biding. You need system that punishes severely if people break law. In my opinion It is this fear that stops many people from breaking the law in developed country. Of-course we also need an environment where ethics are injected right from the childhood. But ethics alone is not sufficient.

To quote one American President "At any given point, some percentage of our population is upto NO GOOD".

In India's case it would be " At any given point, a very significant percentage of our population is Upto No Good". Further, the legal process is too slow, easily interferred with totally destroying its credibility which seems to be the crux of the problem. From Politically motivated murders to poeple jumping red signals nobody seems be afraid of the law anymore.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Aug 2011 12:33

Murugan wrote:
It is this fear that stops many people from breaking the law in developed country.
Like the people did it in developed England recently.

While England should be the least of my botheration, people are being jailed, how many died. and on a day to day basis do or do not find people more abiding to traffic rules there. I would say a big yes.

Here our Elite int hier Greed for personal Wealth, have made sure that the Legal system is totally ineffective so that they can get away. Personally the people who have been rulling us for 56 of 64 years are majorly responsible for this.

If we, voters public do not put Congress Inc out of business soon and keep asking others to follow thier model of winning elections- creating divides and money power, we have no future.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 18 Aug 2011 12:44

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 643241.cms

Tihar Jail staff kids lend helping hand, quench parched throats
Indrani Basu, TNN | Aug 18, 2011, 05.38AM IST

NEW DELHI: Didi, here's water for you all." It was a boon in the sweltering heat, when a bottle of chilled water was shoved between the bars of a narrow window at the main gate of Tihar Jail to thousands of Anna supporters camping outside the jail gate. As one bottle was quickly gulped down, eager hands pushed in more water bottles.

A huge relief for those standing in the heat for hours. This group of young helpers were children of the Tihar Jail staff, eager to help and be part of the movement spearheaded by Anna. The small gesture was appreciated by hundreds of tired and thirsty protesters. "Some in the group were elderly and haven't eaten anything for hours. Small gestures like these will keep the morale high," said Geeta, one of the volunteers who had shown up outside the jail.

The children, who had just come back from school, headed straight to the main gate of the jail, where most of the protesters were waiting outside. "Homework ab raat ko karenge. Abhi yahaan Anna ko humari zarurat hai (We will do our homework at night. Right now, Anna needs us)" said 12-year-old Pushpit, while taking back an empty bottle of water that he would then run to his house and refill. The group of children, in the age-group of nine and fourteen, eager to do their bit for the movement, clamoured at the entrance of the Tihar gate, while protesters on the other side continued to chant slogans.

In a hastily-written note in Hindi, the kids scribbled - "Kyunki hum apne desh ko bhrashtachaar se mukt karaana chahte hai aur Anna Hazare ek aam aadmi hai, hum unki aawaaz ko sarkar tak pahauchana chahte hai." (Because we want to free our country of corruption and Anna is a common man, we want his protest to be heard by the government.)

These children, all students of a nearby private school, eagerly demanded being "put to work." "We want to help. We want to meet Anna. We want to join the protests but are on the other side of the gate. So please tell us what we can do," asked 13-year-old Himanshu.

These children said they had read about Anna and had been following his protest on TV. "We all want to do something too. He should not be in jail. We want to participate because he is a good person and fighting for our rights," chimed two nine-year-olds, Shweta and Neha.

Giggled some of the children, "On TV we heard the protesters saying "Yeh andar ki baat hai, police Anna ke saath hai (This is a secret, the police supports Anna) We are also with Anna. And we will be here on Thursday as well."

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 18 Aug 2011 12:50

Latest from Mr. Kejriwal as per Times Now - Anna Hazare to go to Ram Lila grounds tomorrow morning... Ram Lila Grounds not ready yet...

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 18 Aug 2011 12:54

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 646058.cms

The Anna wave - ripples in Pakistan...

Taking a cue from Anna Hazare, a 68-year-old Pakistani businessman is set to go on hunger strike in Islamabad from September 12 to declare war on endemic corruption in his country. Expressing his admiration for Hazare, Jehangeeer Akhtar complained that corruption was a far more serious disease in Pakistan.

Activist Akhtar wants the Pakistan Parliament to pass an anti-corruption law -- like what India is now planning.

"I demand that an anti-corruption bill be presented in the National Assembly," said Akhtar, who has closely followed the anti-corruption war in India.

He said the Pakistani bill should be on the lines of what gets passed in India's parliament.

"Corruption in Pakistan is more than in India... bahut zyada (much more)," Akhtar told IANS in a telephonic interview from Islamabad where he runs a photography business.

- just noticed on Times Now ticker - Bombay Dabbawalas to go on token one day strike...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2011 12:55

I just saw a bunch of guys and girls from a office park near mine standing on the median of ORR now, holding placards in support of anti-corruption.

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Aug 2011 13:05

^^ They have been there from past 2 days....seen quite a few folks giving pamphlets etc at entrance of many parks in ORR from couple of days...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Aug 2011 13:12

Karnataka Lokpal Justice hegede just shredded the Supremacy of the Parliament. he made understand the meaning of word supremacy. he said that parliament is supreme in law making and it cannot stop people talking against it. He also asked wht is Supreme Court for? What is Supreme he asks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2011 13:21

I guess while some judges in india are on the take, many are honest enough within some constraints and none would have a criminal record stretching to murder, arson and rape - a common 'qualification' of our MLAs and MPs in the legislative arm lol.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Aug 2011 13:34

I heard Justice Hegde saying "It is not supremacy of parliament that matters, it is accountability that matters most". where is the accountability.

******

MM singh mentioned yesterday about parliament has the right to making laws, if thats true, dear Singhamji why the ruling parties did not enacted a strong anti-corruption law on its own. They have only woke-up after people nudged them to do something and still dillydallying,

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Aug 2011 14:30

sugriva wrote:
Pranav wrote:When I was in India, I used to evade taxes. I don't even try that in Hong Kong. Here, I used to jump signals, I don't do that there
It is precisely the above that gives me the shivers about the doofusses who are supporting the AH movement. So this guy doesn't jump signals and bothers to pay all his taxes not because he is a conscientious citizen but because he is afraid of the assorted Pandus in Hong Kong. Were Hong Kong to be less vigorous in its pursuit of the tax evaders our man would be gladly doing what he did in India.

So in effect he is asking for a police state in India.

Yes, it is Hong Kong's vigorous pursuit of the corrupt, and its commitment to the rule of law that makes all the difference. Obviously we can't do that in India with Maino & ilk in power.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Aug 2011 14:54

Photo Album: Awaiting Anna's release

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 18 Aug 2011 15:06

My prediction is that nothing is going to happen out of all this. Will be back to business as usual in some time.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 18 Aug 2011 15:28

merlin wrote:My prediction is that nothing is going to happen out of all this. Will be back to business as usual in some time.

And in the long term, magician?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 18 Aug 2011 15:52

noobie sawaal . Who are the anti national people supporting anna hazare? I am aware of medha patkar. Who else is there?

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 18 Aug 2011 15:54

my 2 paisa -

1. even if this bill sees the light of Lok Sabha it will not be passed easily (even BJP may not vote in support of bill- their karnatka wound is fresh in hands of Lokayukta

2. There are flip side of bill as well, what is the guarantee that a demon will not become an ombudsman? In which case a corrupt lokayukta will have power to shake the govt

3. Sooner of later all political parties will cut across party lines to support 'supremacy of parliament'-which means Anna might get isolated

4. The people around Anna do not have clean credentials-about Swami Agnivesh, Medha Patekar less said the better

About Kiran bedi this article is doing rounds (again)-

When she was posted in Mizoram her daughter had topped the Class XII CBSE exams from that state. As per the rules which still prevail she was entitled

to admission in professional colleges from the Mizoram quota as her parent was a government official posted there. If I remember rightly the child was given

admission in a Delhi medical college based on this rule. There was an agitation in Mizoram because many people there did not like the fact that a non-Mizo was

being given admission through the Mizoram quota. Since it was Kiran Bedi a lot of heat was built up in the national media. Kiran had to leave Aizawl quietly one

day in the early hours. Everyone heaved a sigh of relief but nobody was willing to admit it. She has been accused of not informing her seniors when she did this.

If she had done so the news could well have been leaked out. And that would have been dangerous to say the least.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2011 16:12

to me its a non-issue. in NE states (just like any other states), some seats are kept in open quota and some in SC/ST for admission into NIT etc. now in states like Mizoram or Arunachal, pretty much everyone qualifies under ST, so the open seats are mostly taken by kids of central govt officials posted there (army, brdo, posts, banks etc). some central govt employees arranged to get transferred there during their kids 10-12 phase to avail of much lesser competition vs say being posted in a larger state.
if anything she just used this arbitrage opportunity as 1000s of people have done.

in my batch we had a marwari guy from sikkim, a assamese from arunachal, a bihari from nagaland, a dilliwalla from meghalaya and a west bengal guy from tripura

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Aug 2011 16:23

@IndraD

Its nothing great. About Kiran Bedi's daughter. I have seen guys in IIT on a merit cum means scholarship, when their parents were filthy rich. Obviously having declared themselves as BPL, and whiling evenings gambling away at teen patti! Not that I condone it.

if she did something illegal, why did not the government take action against her? Was it because politicians/babus are accused of corruption they conveniently look the other way? Only if that person becomes a thorn in their side they self righteously start slining mud?

The Jan Lokpal is about corruption and accountability

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 18 Aug 2011 16:40

On MMS

Like I said before, he has to hang on to power until 2G falls down otherwise the sycophants will tear him down and he will got to jail until his death.

So he has to do as much damage to 2Gs as possible. Is he doing enough?

He could be Indu Sharma of Gandhi-Vadhra family as I said before. In that case he will not remove his mukhda until the end, but he would require a Chanakya to support him from outside by playing the principle opposition. Who is that, SS?

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 18 Aug 2011 16:44

Singha wrote:to me its a non-issue. in NE states (just like any other states), some seats are kept in open quota and some in SC/ST for admission into NIT etc. now in states like Mizoram or Arunachal, pretty much everyone qualifies under ST, so the open seats are mostly taken by kids of central govt officials posted there (army, brdo, posts, banks etc). some central govt employees arranged to get transferred there during their kids 10-12 phase to avail of much lesser competition vs say being posted in a larger state.
if anything she just used this arbitrage opportunity as 1000s of people have done:

Dear sir the purpose of these seats are to create opportunity for people of NE/Mizoram to get good education , this doesn't entitle any sarkari babu from main land (other wise Mizo won't have done agitation) to use that seat through influence, was it illegal-may be no, immoral certainly yes (1000 people doing the same act doesn't absolve Kiran bedi of immorality). My 2 paisa only with no disrespect.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 18 Aug 2011 16:46

Singha wrote:to me its a non-issue. in NE states (just like any other states), some seats are kept in open quota and some in SC/ST for admission into NIT etc. now in states like Mizoram or Arunachal, pretty much everyone qualifies under ST, so the open seats are mostly taken by kids of central govt officials posted there (army, brdo, posts, banks etc). some central govt employees arranged to get transferred there during their kids 10-12 phase to avail of much lesser competition vs say being posted in a larger state.
if anything she just used this arbitrage opportunity as 1000s of people have done.

in my batch we had a marwari guy from sikkim, a assamese from arunachal, a bihari from nagaland, a dilliwalla from meghalaya and a west bengal guy from tripura

The Delhi Medical College to which Kiran Bedi's daughter sought admission did have rule providing for a quota to students from North Eastern States. The rule also did provide for children of Government officials posted in these States and passing the qualifying exam from these States as being eligible for the Quota. It so happened that her daughter not only wrote the exam from Mizoram but also topped the school final exam. She could not be denied the admission.
The rule was not perverse. It was also meant to encourage public servants not to avoid postings and their services at least on paper were needed for the economic development of the region. How then does one incentivise Central Govt staff to not resist postings. It would of course have been nice if a Mizo boy/girl had topped the exam and wanted to study medicine in the Delhi Medical College. But the blame for their failing to do so could hardly be laid at the door Ms Kiran Bedi or her daughter.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Aug 2011 16:56

Congress is the new Left Front, Jan Lokpal the new Singur

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 18 Aug 2011 17:12

merlin wrote:My prediction is that nothing is going to happen out of all this. Will be back to business as usual in some time.

Probably. Drastic changes happen far fewer times than slow and steady changes. So we might not get the bill we really need, or we might not get the black money back from the evil Swiss.
However, even as we discuss there have been changes. When was the last time you saw an individual or movement garner such support from the length and breadth of the country? One might say the necessary planets aligned or the conditions were right, people could have been inspired by the African and Asian protests....whatever be the case the peaceful protests by people from all parts of the country is definitely a big change in itself.

As a believer in that changes happen slowly and sometimes it is not easily recognizable, I am happy. Some good dramatically happens, it is a cherry on the ice cream for me.

Sabar ka phal meeta hota hain jee. My only fear is the public - especially the youth - should not get disillusioned or discouraged if somebody springs a nasty surprise down the line.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 18 Aug 2011 17:22

From the Indian express today (18th Aug)
BJP twists knife
Sushma Swaraj in the Parliament:

She said that when BJP leaders inquired from Anna Hazare and his colleagues why had they excluded them (Opposition) from the negotiations, civil society leaders told them that they had suggested to the Government that they be taken on board. “However, the Government told them — having you and us (in the drafting committee) would do,” she said quoting Anna and his colleagues. “The Government,” according to her, “changed its tune when the negotiations failed.” Then the “Government remembered of parliamentary process, wrote letters to us and called an all-party meeting,” she said sarcastically.

Arun Jaitley:

Is the Congress party willing to give a guarantee that they will not hold a protest having more than 5,000 people in future? Are you willing to abide by each of these conditions that you have imposed on Anna Hazare and his people?

Jaitley sought to know how could the Government take the stand that:

“there should be no participation outside Parliament of anyone outside Parliament in the drafting of the laws?” “What is the National Advisory Committee?,” he asked and himself explained that “it is a group of citizens.”

“You are using them effectively to draft your laws; your ministers don’t even have the courage to start opposing the laws that they are drafting...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Aug 2011 17:35

I don't see the babu nerves here being affected.. The con-angrez waalas are happily deploying police to do the job, and continue on the pigs swindling the country forever. Only a revolutionary bill can help.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 18 Aug 2011 18:43

The true change ONLY comes when the 2nd India (Babudom) firmly accepts the supremacy of 3rd India (not NGOs) and pledge to protect its (3rd India) interests.

And the permanent fix to the corruption issue is more philosophical than political. Political solution is very very short term (less than couple of years), policy solution is mid-term (5-10 years).

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 18 Aug 2011 19:04

Any BRFites in Houston area, please attend Anna support rally at Indian Embassy. My friends are currently there
1990 Post Oak Boulevard Houston, TX 77056

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 18 Aug 2011 19:22

Case against Anna Hazare for insult to tricolour

A case was filed in a Bihar court on Thursday against social activists Anna Hazare and Arvind Kejriwal for allegedly insulting the national flag during a television commercial, officials said.

He alleged that the tricolour hoisting at a commercial programme amounts to dishonour as it was not done as per guidelines of the National Honour Act, 1971 and the National Honour (Amendment) Act, 2005. He urged the court to direct officials to take stringent action against the two and they be charged and tried for breach of law.

googling for the advocate got this-

1) Court summons Lalu for landing chopper without permission

Additional District Judge (VII) Choudhary Vijendra Kumar Roy summoned the duo after hearing a revision petition filed by advocate Sudhir Kumar Ojha.
Ojha had charged Prasad and Singh with landing the chopper on the national highway during the aerial survey of floods on August 1, 2007 without prior permission from the district authorities.
He had also alleged that the landing of the chopper led to commotion and created law and order problems because of a stampede-like situation created by locals who had taken shelter on the road because of floods

2) Bihar: Court summons Sonia Gandhi over controversial posters

Additional District and Sessions Judge (Muzaffarpur) A K Srivastava ordered issue of the summon after hearing the complainant and senior advocate Sudhir Kumar Ojha.
The judge asked Gandhi to appear either in person or through her lawyer in the court to explain her position.

Ojha in his petition alleged that a photograph had appeared in the Muzaffarpur edition of a Hindi daily on June 21, 2007 of the Congress president allegedly depicted as Goddess Durga which was "an insult to Hindi religion and the Hindu community."
The picture was also displayed in the office of the Muradabad Congress. Ojha alleged that Gandhi and others had connived to have the picture displayed "to insult the religion of the Hindu community".

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 18 Aug 2011 19:33

Pranay wrote: - just noticed on Times Now ticker - Bombay Dabbawalas to go on token one day strike...

For the first time in their 120-year-old history, Mumbai's dabbawalas to take a break for Anna Hazare

For the first time in their 120-year-old history, Mumbai's famous dabbawalas, who deliver tiffins service to over two lakh customers daily, will be taking a break tomorrow, to support social activist Anna Hazare in his fight against corruption.

To support Hazare, as the whole country is doing so, the 5000 dabbawalas in the city would hold a rally from Churchgate to Azad Maidan tomorrow," Mare said. Asked if their customers would be irked if they fail to deliver their tiffins, Mare said "they love us so much that they wont feel offended with our action." "All this is for a cause which we feel is just," he added.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 18 Aug 2011 19:44

My father was posted in Port Blair; and IIRC there was a similar rule if I had passed out my 12th std there and come to the 'main land'. I could have got into some professional colleges using quotas. A&N being a 'tenure' place in those times, there were some incentives for people to get posted there. Else, in some government sectors people could reach out to the right people and get posted in more cushier places.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2011 20:26

one sitting high court judge has been impeached by rajya sabha today after voting, inspite of a direct speech in the sitting rajya sabha by himself in defence.

about the seats thing , as nandakumar has already explained - its a non issue and nothing immoral - its not like anyone falsely became a SC/ST to claim reserved seats. general seats are open to any state resident, which kids of central services are certainly eligible for.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Aug 2011 20:36

Ambika Soni is so shameless. P. Chidambaram said this in parliament. They say that going to jail is common and adds to their profile. The shameless people compare themselves to Anna Hazare.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 18 Aug 2011 21:05

From twitter@AmiSri. TIFWIW.

>>Varun Gandhi to present Anna's Lokpal Bill in LS timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/Va… @varungandhi80