Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Lalmohan »

vishvak wrote:The mail takes away a bit of luster off Dharmic lands by pointing out how useless it is to 'invade' others, because it will only result in our hardened soldiers suddenly finding themselves encamped in the middle of desert even after winning wars. It points to lacking inclination, which sounds correct apparently though I am willing to present counter-points to these in proper forum, if it is correct.
in ancient times, the world consisted of the civilised and the barbarians. most civilised peoples settled on good agrarian land and their wealth was built on agricultural produce at its core. barbarians - often nomads - typically lived on marginal lands for cultivation (but good for grazing livestock) and led an entirely different economic existence. they could trade livestock for goods with the civilised, but it was often easier to just smash and grab. this model existed all across eurasia for millennia.

barbarians were not only more ruthless and aggressive (because they lived hardier lives than the civilised) but they were often much more mobile (horses) and employed tactics which relied on manouvre and not static strength which the urbanised civilised and immobile people used. its one thing to have horses in your army, its quite another to have a complex mobile shock force which can operate in disciplined formations and concentrate force in a place of the commanders choosing.

next factor - geography. in open flat terrain - horse and chariot manouvring is far more deadly than infantry, even if supported by elephants. its not until the deployment of artillery and muskets from behind defensive positions that the advantage of cavalry gets negated. in broken hilly ground, infantry dominates. in between the two - a mobile infantry force (like shivajis) has tremendous advantages over 'conventional armies', etc., etc.

if a civilised army with a logistics tail pursues a mobile invader back to their marginal lands - all the barbarian has to do is melt away into the steppe or the desert. the civilised army loses momentum and gives up - even alexander who chased the persians across iran gave up when it came to the parthians across the oxus and jaxartes rivers, who simply dissappear away. the further you chase them into the interior, the more risk you bring to your own forces - for an indefinable return... how big was the steppe? how big the world? what lay beyond those mountains? the ancients didn't have the knowledge that we do today.

why did the romans build hadrian's wall across northern england? because they saw no economic benefit in the barren terrain of scotland. cheaper to keep the barbarians out than waste legions to conquer lands that cannot be settled.

economics and geography are bigger drivers of warfare than the strength of arms.
Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 800
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Y I Patel »

If I may, there could be two more interacting layers to what has already been said about the military part (i.e. the "guns" part).

The first is the "germs" part. India of that time would have densely populated villages and towns, with animals and humans in close proximity. That, added to the lack of knowledge on germ theory, would have imposed a huge public health penalty on median age - something for which we have anecdotal support in the low average age of Maratha peshwas even three centuries ago. It is no wonder that even to this date H1N1 primarily originates from humid and crowded South China. In contrast, Central Asian (and to some extent Afghan and east Persian) population centers did not have the same level of population density, or the tropical climate which amplifies the public health impact. My own theory is that Vedic streams added to the misery by according the lowest social status to the people responsible for the vital sanitary engineering functions, and by preventing intermarriage. Another way of saying this is that India of 10th century was constrained by limiting factors to growth.

This also has a psychological impact - even today, people in more densely crowded cities tend to be less "neighborly" than those in smaller towns or villages. Socially, the overcrowding and competetion for resources would lead to aggravation of the caste system; even if greater populations equate to greater prosperity in that day and age, I would imagine that "prosperity" for the peasant/tradesman of that time would merely amount to enough resources to ensure that a few of the non-stillborn infants survived to an "old" age of 30. Imagine, having to complete a lifetime's work in that span! People nowadays are barely out of college by that age!

The second layer, feeding from the first, is the political one. By the 10th century, tensions between a resurgent vedic branch and a diminishing Buddhist branch must have led to state of a spiritual civil war. To my mind, the epitome of the Golden Age is really when a Shudra from Bengal was elected to be a king, and led to the start of the glorious Pala dynasty. Yet, after barely three generations or so, their mighty empire had splintered. Why? There may have been economic stressors - they were supporting a huge standing army and sponsoring high maintenance Buddhist monasteries. But added to that was the Vedantic revival of Adi Shankara, and the political revival of Kshatriya clans to whom the Palas had to turn to to maintain their empire (especially the western front). So we suddenly see the Pratiharas and the Rashtrakutas making a comeback, and later hear of Anandpala having to beat back challenges to his eastern front in addition to fighting Mehmud of Gazni. Speaking of the Hindu Shahis, they were Buddhist Shahis before they switched to becoming Hindu Shahis. What caused that switch? I would imagine that the predominantly Buddhist population did not take kindly to the switch of faith by their rulers. Lastly, one remembers Gazni and the Islamic invasions for their buratlity. It might not have seemed to be such a big threat to Buddhists, who shared a lot in common with Sufis and already had moderate Ismailis as their neighbors in Multan. They, of course, made a huge misjudgement and the bad karma hurt them in the end, but that is true of other Indian Hindu rulers as well.

These were the historical undercurrents of that time. There may have been other climate related or economic stressors as well. Ultimately, Bhagwan Buddha got it totally right that nothing is forever. The wheel of Dharma keeps turning, and it will come a full circle when a Dalit (preferably a woman at that) becomes the next Prime Minister of India. That will mark the begining of the next Pala dynasty.
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by tsarkar »

Atri wrote:Raghoba's northern campaign was economic disaster...Raghoba had no direct experience of dealing with pathans. He was chasing them and had avoided direct confrontation with them.
Sadashivrao was a good administrator while Raghunath Rao was a good soldier. Raghunath Rao was able to form an alliance with Adina Beg Khan and push the Taimur Shah and Jahan Shah out of Lahore in May 1758. In the next years, these two captured Multan and Attock. These conquests did involve battles and skirmishes, it is just that these expeditions were not documented. Maratha light cavalry was used to harass the Abdalian garrisons and cut of lines of communication.

These were the best days of the Maratha light cavalry, they never performed better, and 1758-1760 was the peak size of the Maratha empire.

Raghunath Rao ran up a hugh debt in these campaigns, as expected, with no chauth collected from the lands conquered. His lack of administrative skills didnt help, plus debt accumulated, led to his not being apointed as leader of the next expedition.

A better strategy would have been a dual leadership with Raghunath Rao as military leader and Sadashiv Rao as adminstrator. Ofcourse, given the one-upmanship between them, it wouldnt have worked well.

However, successful campaigns have military and administrative leaders work hand in hand. Man Singh captured territories for Akbar while Todar Mal implemented administrative reforms. They didnt have any conflict of interest.

To recover money, Marathas levied Chauth and Sardeshmukhi on Rajputs earning their ire. Malhar Rao Holkar had earlier attempted to storm Bharatpur leading to his son being killed and had sworn revenge on Suraj Mal. Malhar being an advisor to Sadashivrao didnt endear Suraj Mal.

I am no fan of Raghunath Rao, given what he did to his nephew in his lust of power, but "dogs of war" like him could certainly be better used. Keeping him in the frontier fighting wars would have also kept the peace at Maratha heartlands.
Atri wrote:Jats were small zamindars.
This is a very incorrect statement.

After the war, Suraj Mal provided a safe haven for Marathas to recuperate at Bharatpur before they moved to Gwalior and to the hinterland. It is Suraj Mal's presence that prevented the exhausted Abdalian Army from moving deeper into India. FWIW, as per some sources, Abdali didnt even go to Delhi after the battle.

In 1757, EIC had won Plassey, and in 1795, Jats were recruited into the Calcutta Native Militia, with the 1st and 3rd Battalions of that Regiment forming the Jat Regiment in 1922, with regimental center at Bareilly. Jats were certainly more than small zamindars if they supplied troops to the British and were designated a martial race on equal footing with the Marathas.

Lastly, Jats at Multan had given a tough fight to Mehmud Ghaznavi at the Indus. So their military lineage is impressive.
Atri wrote:Sikhs were not in position to help huge army of marathas.
Again, not correct.

1748 - ASA's first invasion, captures Lahore, but defeated at Sirhind by Nawab Qamaruddin and Prince Ahmed Shah Bahadur, son on Mughal emperor Muhammad Shah. Qamaruddin, the winner of the battle dies, and so does Muhammad Shah in sorrow.

1749 - ASA's second invasion, ASB has become lethargic, womanizer and with Q dead, is defeated, cedes Punjab and Sindh to ASA

1751 - ASA's third invasion - because the Sikhs have occupied Lahore in the preceding years. Takes Kashmir as well.

1756 - ASA's fourth invasion - Adina Beg, Mughal governer of Punjab, cant stop the Abdali and flees. Mughal Emperor Alamgir is unable to pay 90 lakh ransom, so ASA loots Delhi, Agra & Mathura. Net yield 3 crore. Leaves son Taimur Shah and general Jahan Khan at Lahore. Desecrates Harmandir Sahib in 1757. Adina Beg turns to Marathas. Marathas in the next few years, drive Taimur and Jahan Khan out of Punjab, capture Attock, Multan and Lahore.

1760-61 - ASA's fifth invasion, turns back immediately after the Panipat battle in January.

1762 - ASA's sixth invasion, because by end 1761, the Sikhs have retaken Punjab. So the Sikhs were a significant force in 1761, just that no alliance had been forged with them or effort made to mobilize them.. ASA sacks Lahore and Amritsar.

1764 - ASA's seventh invasion, Sikhs have again retaken Punjab, this time the fight is a stalemate.

1766 - ASA's eight invasion, the Sikhs under Jassa Aluwalia defeat Jahan Khan.

After 1761, ASA never fought any major battle. He watched tamely as Chinese Qing captured Kashgar. 5 of his 8 expeditions were against sikhs, and he was defeated in the last one.
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

Advait wrote:"They had better horses/chariots" is not a valid excuse. It's not like they had F-22 and we had MiG-21 :(( onlee.
Horses are very important factor. Kindly visit Airavat ji's blog for description of various horse breeds.

Lets discuss the war strategy of Panipat 3.0

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1010945

I am very bad at making images and I have used phata chappal MS paint to make these very crude sketches. Please to indulge me.

1. the left flank of Marathas was Semi european styled Artillery guarded by musketeers, archers, auxiliary cavalry to defend the attacks and marks men.

Maratha artillery was heavy artillery. They used to dig approximately 6 feet deep trenches around the cannons for the reason that the men firing the canon (after lighting the charge) used to jump in those trenches filled with water to save their ears (very big bang). The positions around artillery are fortified to make enemy cavalry charge difficult. this is to be expected.

One has to imagine the way lines moved ahead. there was huge contingent of laborers who had to go ahead, dig and entrenchments, push the artillery ahead by means of bullocks and elephants, ferry them safely back, dig the water trenches around each cannon for the artillery men to jump. this is when the artillery was ready to fire again. till this time, it was vulnerable and was duty of auxiliary cavalry, musketeers, archers, pikemen to defend the artillery when they were in motion.

2. The personal guard of Peshwa known as "Huzuraat" (I think it was 15000 strong contingent, I will have to check the figures). This was made up of elite arabian horses. This contingent was highly disciplined, trained and most loyal and feared contingent of Maratha army. They were maintained by Peshwa himself out of his own purse and were provided with best of weapons, armor available then in India. The other cavalry contingents were maintained by various sardars of different statures. Not all of them could afford expensive arabian horses and maintain them accordingly.

The height of "deccani" horse is less than that of arabic or central asian horses. Naturally, the distance covered by taller horse in one gallop is more than distance covered by a shorter horse in one gallop. Furthermore, the stamina of Deccani horses was bit less than other breeds of horses. When the lines advance, this distance can increase thereby creating a gap in the advancing cavalry lines. This can be avoided by drilling all horses to charge in unison on mutually acceptable speeds and distances. Such small things accumulate to big errors which swing the battles. Distance of effective charge is also different. Most of the Deccani horses of Marathas were half starved (so were men) and were exhausted when they crossed 2 km of battle field and dashed against lines of Abdali.

For that, there has to be an effective command and control sequence which needs to be clear to every last soldier and non-fighting unit of army. This sequence of commands were evolved in India for cavalry based warfare. But aligning it with artillery is a trick.

Few pages ago, Airavatji has discussed about time taken by the contemporary artillery to reload and be ready to fire. This was about 90 minutes during Babar's era. I will have to search for documents regarding the time for reloading in Maratha era, but lets assume after 200 years of progress, the time reduced to 30 minutes. After an opening salvo by artillery, musketeers and pikemen had to defend the line while the role of cavalry is to charge when morale of enemy is about to waver an then drive them off, killing as many as possible during enemy column's flight. However they should not go too far and should return back to the safe-zone before 30 minutes. If they venture too far and/or linger too long, they may come under friendly fire. (This is what happened. Ibrahim khan had to stop firing because along with pathans, Marathas too came under his range.)

This is where the efficacy of horse shows up. If there is proper command and control sequence, the differential capabilities of different horses are used differently. This is the concept of 19th century napoleonic wars which happened 40 years later. But at that time, it was still evolving. The Most trusted general of Bhau, Balwantrao died in sneak pathan attack few days earlier. He was the main adviser and together with him, Bhau was in process of make these factions (old school favouring cavalry based warfare [Shinde Holkar and old stalwarts of army] and new school favouring pitch battle with artillery and infantry as centre [Bhau and Ibrahim khan]) work together.

The strategy worked fine until about late afternoon after which two three effects started showing up their presence. The Uttarayan effect of sun (battle was faught on Makar Sankranti of 1761, thus making it very inauspicious festival for Maharashtrians henceforth), the sunlight in early dusk (15:00 hours onwards) started falling on eyes of Marathas. Vishwasrao was killed by a sneak cannon ball (Jamburiya). The Right flank (Shindes) were not making any progress. Holkar did not fight at all. Left flank of Marathas had destroyed right flank of Abdali. Maratha Centre (Peshwa and his Huzuraat) had destroyed the Vazir and Shah wali (centre of Abdali). But Abdali left was not falling and Shindes were struggling. When you check the figures in the link I have cited, Maratha centre (Bhau) had come in firing range of Maratha artillery. So the most effective regiment of Marathas was silenced by their own lack of coordination.

Meanwhile the 10,000 reserve of Abdali came to rescue of Pathans and rest is history.

The overenthusiasm of sardars like Vinchurkar, gaikwad when they pursued the enemy too far and lingered in the firing zone for too long showed the initial chinks in maratha armor. The ego was hurt too (Muslim Ibrahim khan seen as more successful than Hindu Marathas). which prompted them to show "more bravery" than Ibrahimkhan. Of course, in artillery-infantry based pitched battles, things don't work this way. Napoleon beautifully amalgamated these two, but that was 40 years later in different space and time.
tsarkar wrote:A better strategy would have been a dual leadership with Raghunath Rao as military leader and Sadashiv Rao as adminstrator. Ofcourse, given the one-upmanship between them, it wouldnt have worked well.

However, successful campaigns have military and administrative leaders work hand in hand. Man Singh captured territories for Akbar while Todar Mal implemented administrative reforms. They didnt have any conflict of interest.

To recover money, Marathas levied Chauth and Sardeshmukhi on Rajputs earning their ire. Malhar Rao Holkar had earlier attempted to storm Bharatpur leading to his son being killed and had sworn revenge on Suraj Mal. Malhar being an advisor to Sadashivrao didnt endear Suraj Mal.

I am no fan of Raghunath Rao, given what he did to his nephew in his lust of power, but "dogs of war" like him could certainly be better used. Keeping him in the frontier fighting wars would have also kept the peace at Maratha heartlands.
Raghoba did not have brain of his own. His negligence squandered off all the goodwill that his father Bajirao-1 had earned. He worked on advice of his Sardars. Furthermore, I refuse to think of him as a good soldier too. 2 years after Panipat, in battle of Rakshasbhuvan in 1763 between Peshwa and Nizam, he foolishly let himself get trapped. He was completely encircled and was about to be killed by Nizam army.

true to his nature, Malharrao Holkar advised 15 year old Madhavrao-1 Peshwa to retreat from a "lost cause", just like he has "retreated" from Panipat. 15 year old Madhavrao scolded this 60 year old "veteran" ordered him to stay put and not abandon the field and took his personal bodyguard of 200 horses and led such a charge that it changed the fortunes of the battle. The loosing battle was won by the heavy charge of 200 horses under this young peshwa and aftermaths were so humiliating for Nizam that there was peace between Nizam and Marathas for next 30 years (1795, battle of Kharda, last united stand of Marathas).

This shows the ineptness of raghoba and brazen honourless character of Malharrao. While this stand had given them victory during their expansive stage, the nature of world was changing. Such fleeing tactics are of no use for an empire with ambition to establish pax-indica. They have to stay put and be seen as "just" protectors. This is what Bhau and Madhavrao were trying to prove.

On Panipat, marathas were lost, but the "idea" of India re-emerged victorious after 800 years of hibernation. "India" ruled by "Indians" was the mantra of Bhau, time and again. There are numerous letters from him, Peshwa and Raghoba suggesting the same. And that "India" started from "Kabul river" and not Sutlaj. Raghoba lacked the stern character to make such principled stand. He lacked imagination too, to plan and execute intensive campaigns. It was only stern rationing of Bhau which convinced eased the starving of maratha army. the indulgence of Raghoba would have spelt doom much early.

Regarding jats and Sikhs please read it here. To summarize, Shuja was better choice than Surajmal. Better equipped, better financed and whose long term goals were not inconsistent with Marathas. Sikhs had not yet organized into misls. The region was ravaged recently by Abdali and was not in position to support and maintain the column of million living beings (men, horses, elephants, bullocks, cows etc) for such extended duration. Sikhs did help Marathas in their Attock campaign (Alasingh accompanied Raghoba with his men).

Rajput maratha relations are interesting. By 16tth-17th century, Rajputs had been intricately networked with Mughals. The Islamic rebellion of 1580s was quelled by Akbar using rajputs (as Airavat ji had shown). They were linked to Mughals and their other networks by means of marital alliances as well. Thus, for all practical purposes, 18th century Rajputs were extensions of Mughals (so some extent, there are notable exceptions, but that will be out of scope here. Airavat ji can illustrate on this better). For Marathas who were new to this politics of north, there were too many undercurrents which they took time to understand.

Bajirao-1 had kept amicable relations with Rajputana states by far and large. After his death, the empire became so heavily entangled in politics of North and South (Kaveri basin and south of Krishna-Tungabhadra river) that it was very hectic for nanasaheb to maintain his personal presence everywhere. Furthermore, unlike his father, he was not a soldier by character. He was an armchair politician of excellent calibre.

Something akin to East-west division of Roman empire, the division of seat of Peshwa with one branch handling North and another handling south would have been the solution. This was the primary motivation of sending Raghoba to north. But he returned to Pune immediately. So nanasaheb sent the first officer of empire, Bhau to North. That ended in Panipat. After Panipat, the understanding between Madhavrao-1 and Nana Phadnavis and Mahadaji Shinde ensured this division of political responsibilities. they maintained excellent communication throughout with minor glitches, thus ensuring the policies of northern seat and southern seat were in coherence.

Panipat and earlier Attock was not meant to be a military campaign. It was meant to be a colonizing campaign to stablize North. With Bhau stablizing somewhere near Delhi, Peshwa would have been free to take care of Nizam, Hyder and southern kings of arcot and malabar, along with british. Shinde was already given the province of bengal and was on his way. Perhaps, Bhau would have seated at Gwalior or somewhere in Ganga valley (Western UP, strong hold of Ummah), close to Delhi after his stabilization.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Singha »

enroute to pondicherry one day it was a shock to me when I learnt the ginjee fort through which the NH goes had been once occupied by Shivaji's forces and infact they had reached down as far as madurai sometime.

mentally I had always associated marathas with MH and MP ...didnt know they ranged so far and wide.

http://vii.in/travel/Images/Gingee-Fort ... Nadu-1.jpg

this link says the forces shivaji sent to control the fort were a breakaway faction of delhi army who had become rajputized and semi-hindu in customs which aurangzeb objected to, so they deserted from meerut and served under shivaji
http://www.gingeefort.com/web/artical01.asp

I also discovered a community of Gingee Muslims who are quite unique. They are the descendents of the early Mughal army commanders. Their ancestors originally came to India along with the first Mughal emperor Babar. They continued to serve Humayun, Akbar, Jahangir, and Shahjehan but fell out with Aurangzeb. The story of their estrangement with Aurangzeb is as follows. Very early in their rule, in India, the Mughal emperors realised the importance of maintaining peace and friendship with the Rajput kings and making strategic alliances with them. As a result over a period of time the Mughal kings started marrying the Rajput women. Humayun married a Rajput princess. Akbar's wife and Jahangir's mother, Jodhabai, was the sister of a famed Rajput Commander Man Singh. This was emulated by not only the future kings, but also by their courtiers and army commanders.

The community of Urdu speaking Muslims that settled in Gingee belonged to this category of military personnel. They had been the products of mixed marriages. They were Muslims, per say, but due to their maternal influences were observing many Hindu customs and celebrating Indian festivals like holi, diwali and so on. All went well till the reign of Shahjehan. However, from the time Aurangazeb came to power the whole scenario changed. The liberal and secular minded Mughal commanders were issued a warning, with immediate effect, or were to face the consequences. The leaders of the community did not tolerate the change and in the pitch of darkness they escaped from somewhere around Meerut in UP where they were then stationed.

They offered their services to Maharaja Shivaji, the archenemy of Aurangzeb. Maharaja Shivaji was only too happy to enroll them in his army and utilise their services against Aurangzeb. It appears that Shivaji's empire at one point expanded up to Gingee. The legendary Raja De Singh, a Rajput King, could have been his vassal. It appears that when the Muslim Chieftains of Deccan owing alliance to Aurangzeb attacked Gingee, Shivaji sent a contingent of Muslim commanders loyal to him to help Raja De Singh. After they won the battle they were offered jobs in Gingee to stay on and protect the fort. Since then they have settled there and some of them have moved to the city of Madras and are important members of the community. One Mr. Choudury possesses the family tree showing all their ancestors and tracing their migration from North to South.
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 695
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by csharma »

mentally I had always associated marathas with MH and MP ...didnt know they ranged so far and wide
Marathas ruled over Orissa over quite a few decades. They had advanced upto Bengal. They were in Delhi, Punjab. Quite a big area under theor control but more like a confederacy. If they had won the 3rd battle of Panipat, India's history would have been different.

The whole Maratha dominance in the 18th century was an eye opener to me since that is something never taught in India.
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

Andaman islands too were first conquered by maratha admiral Kanhori angre.. Later British took their control 1729 onwards.

Like Mauryas, Guptas, Pratiharas, Marathas were iteration of Indian nation. From 1707 to 1818, 110 years, Indian nation existed in form "Maratha federation" and capital of this iteration of India was in Pune.

British won india from marathas in 1818. Thus Maratha India is predecessor of British India and republic of India. The moder ROI should have acknowledged this fact.

after 1715, Maratha empire stopped being a "Marathi" empire, just like with expansion of Samudragupta, gupta empire stopped being a Magadha OR Bihari empire and became "India". Marathas were drawing cadre from all castes, provinces and religions. It was first "secular" army of modern India where promotions were not based on religion or caste. that army consisted odiyas, Marathis, Kannadigas, telangis, Andhras, tamilians, Rajputs, marwadis, bundelas, jats, sikhs, awadhis, pathans, bengalis, even French. They consisted Brahmins, dalits, farmers, traders. they consisted hindus, muslims, christians.

Due to this fact, they could not align with hindu king on hindu cause which is what jats and sikhs expected. They had taken up the national cause to masquerade their hindu cause which seemed to be pragmatic thing to do then. For reasons mentioned in posts above and in previous pages of this thread.

It was first attempt of a "Indic" to raise as a "sanskritik rashtra" (civilizational state) in all its dimensions. They made many mistakes while doing so, but the appear as mistakes only in hindsight. the very fact that they recognized the ancient trait of Hindu empires that only a federal form of government can work efficiently in India, shows their grasp on the pulse of Mahakaal (time).
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by vishvak »

Lalmohan wrote:
vishvak wrote:The mail takes away a bit of luster off Dharmic lands by pointing out how useless it is to 'invade' others, because it will only result in our hardened soldiers suddenly finding themselves encamped in the middle of desert even after winning wars. It points to lacking inclination, which sounds correct apparently though I am willing to present counter-points to these in proper forum, if it is correct.
in ancient times, the world consisted of the civilised and the barbarians. most civilised peoples settled on good agrarian land and their wealth was built on agricultural produce at its core. barbarians - often nomads - typically lived on marginal lands for cultivation (but good for grazing livestock) and led an entirely different economic existence. they could trade livestock for goods with the civilised, but it was often easier to just smash and grab. this model existed all across eurasia for millennia.

barbarians were not only more ruthless and aggressive (because they lived hardier lives than the civilised) but they were often much more mobile (horses) and employed tactics which relied on manouvre and not static strength which the urbanised civilised and immobile people used. its one thing to have horses in your army, its quite another to have a complex mobile shock force which can operate in disciplined formations and concentrate force in a place of the commanders choosing.

next factor - geography. in open flat terrain - horse and chariot manouvring is far more deadly than infantry, even if supported by elephants. its not until the deployment of artillery and muskets from behind defensive positions that the advantage of cavalry gets negated. in broken hilly ground, infantry dominates. in between the two - a mobile infantry force (like shivajis) has tremendous advantages over 'conventional armies', etc., etc.

if a civilised army with a logistics tail pursues a mobile invader back to their marginal lands - all the barbarian has to do is melt away into the steppe or the desert. the civilised army loses momentum and gives up - even alexander who chased the persians across iran gave up when it came to the parthians across the oxus and jaxartes rivers, who simply dissappear away. the further you chase them into the interior, the more risk you bring to your own forces - for an indefinable return... how big was the steppe? how big the world? what lay beyond those mountains? the ancients didn't have the knowledge that we do today.

why did the romans build hadrian's wall across northern england? because they saw no economic benefit in the barren terrain of scotland. cheaper to keep the barbarians out than waste legions to conquer lands that cannot be settled.

economics and geography are bigger drivers of warfare than the strength of arms.
Let me put forth what I understand here. Please understand this as coming from someone who has not read too many books, etc. though I am entitled to a personal view and present here. It will be great if someone can point out both of its sides.

The major idea of this comes from Myth = Mithya, A Handbook of Hindu Mythology by Devdutt Pattanaik. IIRC, it is roughly about how Hindu lifestyle is a unique combination of [ Balanced(Shiv) Existence(Parvati) + Responsible(Vishnu) Society(Lakshmi) + Creative(Brahma) Wisdom(Saraswati) ], altogether at the same time. In one of many different ways, one should be (fit in nature personally + responsible socially + generally wise & creative) is what I make of it. It requires much more discipline/responsibilities/wisdom than a lifestyle of single principle( say, survival of the fittest).

I read somewhere ( perhaps voi.org I tried searching for this discussion but am not getting the page), that Arab lands were once as lively as any other pagan cultures. The people across Arab lands have become Kabilawadi in perhaps last 2000 years of warfare. I will explain how/why according to me; w.r.t. Indians not chasing invaders because there is nothing there of any value - this inclusive mindset has inherent drawbacks. Here is how.

We understand that in our culture, we work hard and celebrate responsibilities. Though our 'inclusive civilization' effectively means that an idea is sold to Hindu culture roughly on a line that 'responsibility is not natural' in different ways( i.e. Responsibility is exclusive to those who belong in a race/religion/what_I_don't_got). This inclusive way of thinking is therefore a bad sign for everyone, us and barbarians who attack-I will explain how.

As I said, a principle idea is that man is a social animal. The animal part is natural, so is social part. Effective it means that it is natural to be responsible to others, it is not something not mandated, or a choice( even if it is made to look so). The punishment of not being responsible to others, is absence of responsibility in the first place for barbarians. As I said earlier, even barbarians have certain responsible people 'within kabila', and these people would surely lament what barbarians do to the civilized. It is here that, barbarians could understand and enjoy responsibilities if value of civilized lifestyle is explained to satisfaction and benefits of civilized lifestyle earned are not snatched off/protected. Perhaps this is why those who understood this have become part of the culture.

I think there could have been pilgrimages to faraway ancient temples across continents way back in ancient times( which is perhaps hidden by exclusive civilized literature). People did what people could to celebrate responsibilities. Somewhere along the time, we have missed this part to the detriment of everyone. For what I understand, the balance in nature has to be upheld by efforts. The kabilawadis, in their ignorance, have made wastelands out of lush green pastures. Which is where I come back to why 'chasing an invader is senseless' is not exhaustively wise idea.

So what do we have to lose if we don't chase the barbarians to where they are and put some sense of responsibilities in? This is a pertinent question. We do lose a lot. First of all we lose a responsible neighbor existing in our neighborhood as part of lifestyle, and so also that our neighbor aka pakis/chinese/those_who_bite will be forced to make even a desert out of even valleys like Indus. By not having a capacity to chase invaders we do not overcome a situation that is created against us by indifferent nature always as a natural behavior. In a manner of speaking, while we ignore the barbarians at the gate, we create a possibility within that over a period of time kabila mentality will become norm, regardless of technology, and we ourselves become kabilawadi and there will be deserts within Desh (I am not saying that natural deserts like Thar is because of Indians; just that in absence of responsibility, nature will be alone to itself and naturally will make a wasteland-to-mankind).

This is why celebrating responsibilities is very important. In these times, when journey from one 'region' to another has become 'travel in train from one state to another', one should make the most of available. Are we celebrating those who have taken up responsibilities culturally? I will explain what I mean by that too.

Please understand, what I mentioned here is what I understand. I am fortunate to be on a discussion board where others understand what is going on better than myself, including this. So comments very much welcome.
Last edited by vishvak on 18 Aug 2011 13:22, edited 1 time in total.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by vishvak »

Atri wrote:
after 1715 ... Marathas were drawing cadre from all castes, provinces and religions. It was first "secular" army of modern India where promotions were not based on religion or caste. that army consisted odiyas, Marathis, Kannadigas, telangis, Andhras, tamilians, Rajputs, marwadis, bundelas, jats, sikhs, awadhis, pathans, bengalis, even French. They consisted Brahmins, dalits, farmers, traders. they consisted hindus, muslims, christians.
Could you please quote some sources for this. I think that will be great.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Singha »

the desertification of arabia whenever it happened ensured that a nomadic and low-resource lifestyle was the only option left to most. a few could eke out a living in highlands with water, hug the coast for fishing or settle down in oasis (which however presented a target for invaders).
only in palestine area / syria was some settlements and farming possible hence most ancient cities in the region are there.

not sure if people like the nabateans of jordan enjoyed a much greener and rainy env then.

to my knowledge we have not found the dead courses of major rivers like tigris or euphrates in the arab peninsula and no ruins of major pre-historic cities on the banks.

at one time it had huge forests and green cover hence all the oil.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Lalmohan »

vishwak - think of the cost of pursuit. in ancient times, the cost was too high. in modern times - it may not be
the game might have changed

singha - the nabateans sat on an oasis along the trade routes and extracted taxes from merchants. they had some water, but not much. whilst the participants in the game were minor powers there was a status quo. once rome enters the scene, they have no time to entertain another minor power controlling their economic activity. nabateans get their musharraf's whipped under pax romana. today on the Petra site, the roman settlements are far more substantial than the nabatean rock temples in terms of a living, working city.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by vishvak »

About celebrating responsibilities:

It is a pertinent question whether we celebrate responsibilities as a culture. It is easy to list some points out of posts here, and see if we celebrate any of this:


1) Battle of Kayadara where Naykidevi routed Muhammad ghori's army in the foothills of mount abu and that ghazi fled the battleground.

2) Bhimdev Solanki II defeated Qurb-ud-din Aibak when aibak tried to invade Gujarat

3) Defeat of Salar Masood in the Battle of Bahraich

4) Numerous defeats of nizams.

5) Failed attempts of Akbar's fauj to capture ahmednagar and down south (?). (Means akbar was never a true emperor of whole of India, major portion Rajasthan in west, Assam and beyond in east were never under his control)

6) That Not moghul including Aurangzeb could not subdue Assam, cooch behar etc

7) Pratihara Dynasty

8 ) Hindu Shahis at Kabul, Kashmiris under Lalitaditya, Chalukyas, Palas all fought Epthathalites/Hunas. Al Biruni has described Hindu Shahis in vivid detail.

9) Bhau was first to understand the necessity to move from cavalry based war tactics to infantry artillery based formations...Shinde was on his way to take care of Bengal. raghoba brought loans of 60 lakh rupees. Bhau was very thrifty in business.

10) As official custodian of Mughal emperor, Marathas considered even afghanistan as part of India.

11) After the war, Suraj Mal provided a safe haven for Marathas to recuperate at Bharatpur

12) Sikhs did help Marathas in their Attock campaign (Alasingh accompanied Raghoba with his men).

13) Marathas ruled over Orissa over quite a few decades. They had advanced upto Bengal. They were in Delhi, Punjab. Quite a big area under theor control but more like a confederacy.

14) Like Mauryas, Guptas, Pratiharas, Marathas were iteration of Indian nation. From 1707 to 1818, 110 years, Indian nation existed in form "Maratha federation" and capital of this iteration of India was in Pune.

15) It was first attempt of a "Indic" to raise as a "sanskritik rashtra" (civilizational state) in all its dimensions. They made many mistakes while doing so, but the appear as mistakes only in hindsight. the very fact that they recognized the ancient trait of Hindu empires that only a federal form of government can work efficiently in India, shows their grasp on the pulse of Mahakaal (time).

We should celebrate this as part of culture, without expecting anything from others (it is not others' job obviously). So next point is what have we done to celebrate these (which is easier in this age), absence of which will make us go into kabila-mode mentality( according to me)? Are there any efforts to collect all information about these and present it in acceptable manner? This, according to me, should not be complicated as can be seen here, i have just copy pasted some lines out of discussions of those who know(not me).


I would also like to differ about a few points raised earlier.
1. (Indian kings) Not prosperous – because the Huns/Epthathalites/Haytal – blocked the Silk Route and the Islamic conquest of Iran closed our West Coast sea trade with Iran. South Eastern Indian states did prosper trading with East Asia, but that revenue could not benefit our North Western states.
--- In future if another silk route opens, ties with other cultures become stronger, do we leave trade, and wealth it generates, at the mercy of barbarians?

2. Most northwestern invaders raised armies with the incentive of loot. Such armies are easy to raise, because every volunteer/conscript could benefit from looting.
--- I would say that if incentives are pointed out i.e. presence of civilized in the neighborhood & benefits therein - the best will join efforts. An example could be how Puru benefited from Iranian king next door, and whom he was allied against invaders like Alex but could not reach in time then. Are we celebrating friendship of Puru and his neighbors before a son of God broke it? I have read it somewhere that Puru was going to the aid of the king, so how did he gather his forces and made efforts to reach there? A detail of this effort would be great too.

3.Most Mumbaikars would rather earn more money safely at Dalal Street. So the inclination is lacking.
---This is exactly what I was saying - we have taken for granted that people are not responsible. So why not show people benefits of taking risk in efforts to have civilized neighbors and see what happens. If the efforts are well explained, I am sure people from all states in India will rise up and take risks. Trust society for upholding this.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Airavat »

Atri wrote:Thus, for all practical purposes, 18th century Rajputs were extensions of Mughals
Quite the opposite. Because when Aurangzeb wanted to Islamize India and reduce Hindus to the status of zimmis, he first attacked the Rajput kingdoms in 1679. This was called the "Thirty Years War" fought primarily in the Kingdom of Marwar and overflowing into the neighboring states like Mewar, Jaisalmer, Amber etc.....this state of war continued broken now and then by temporary peace but such was the Rajput hostility that when Nadir Shah came knocking on the doors of the Mughal empire in 1739, only Muslims were available to fight the bloody Battle of Karnal.

As for the Maratha invasions of Rajputana, they were primarily motivated by greed. The rest is off-topic and more suited for the Rajasthan history thread.
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

Airavat ji,

Have you written about 1748 massacre of Marathas at Jaipur by Madhosingh? I agree about scope of this thread. You may elaborate upon this in Rajasthan history thread.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Airavat »

Atri wrote:Airavat ji,

Have you written...
No, but Jadunath Sarkar has, on that as well as the Maratha massacre of Rajputs at Barwada :mrgreen:

Coming back to the thread topic, I wonder why the Battle of Karnal doesn't have the same resonance in online forums as the Battle of Tarain or the 3rd Battle of Panipat?

Here again there was a failure to defend the border, and there was no attempt to punish the invaders by mounting a counter-invasion into their country. Likewise the mighty Delhi Sultanate had similar failures against the Mongols who invaded again and again with impunity.......but newbies only blame Hindus for "not retaliating". Such self-flagellation.
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

:D siege of Barwada was much later in 1757. Almost decade after 1748 Japiur massacre. Madho singh is very shady character.

They have always publicized all those battles where hindus were lost. No one talks about battle of rajasthan, bahraich, raichur, palkhed, kharda and many more where hindus emerged victorious. why is porus's defeat celebrated more than chandragupta's victory over seleucus. afterall, those three battles were of much bigger magnitude than alexander-porus skirmish.

this is the flaw in Indian narrative which needs to be corrected. Personally, I am not much in favour of giving more publicity to non-events like Panipat 3.0. Nothing changed after that battle on hindu side. It was the invading side and islamic side which were devastated due to this battle. It is their misfortune that their doom came in disguise of victory. Something which pakis shag about even today.
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16271
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by SwamyG »

There rumors of Sivaji reaching as far as the outskirts of current Chennai. There are some sthalapuranams of some temple that talk about it. Maybe I am mistaken.
Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3065
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Kanson »

^ You mean this?

Maratha links to Chennai temple
"The Kalikambal temple also has a rare painting and a sculpture showing Goddess Kali blessing Chhatrapati Shivaji." It is said that Shivaji visited the temple in the year 1677 and offered prayers to the deity.
In 1677 do we have Chennai city?
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by tsarkar »

Atri, you've made good points, I'll clarify some points -
Atri wrote:One has to imagine the way lines moved ahead. there was huge contingent of laborers who had to go ahead, dig and entrenchments, push the artillery ahead by means of bullocks and elephants, ferry them safely back, dig the water trenches around each cannon for the artillery men to jump. this is when the artillery was ready to fire again. till this time, it was vulnerable and was duty of auxiliary cavalry, musketeers, archers, pikemen to defend the artillery when they were in motion.


It typically didnt work this way. Artillery batteries of medium and heavy guns didnt move much, only light gun equipped horse artillery and falconet and jezail equipped camel artillery moved.

Throughout history, cavalry was always deployed on the left and right flanks. Cavalry's job was to herd enemy forces towards one's center, reducing their freedom of manoeuver, and cutting of supply lines in the rear.

Once opponents were herded in the center, infantry with spears + elephants could crush them in ancient times, or archers positioned behind stakes could mow them in medieval periods, or artillery could blast them in modern times.

However, this type of envelopment manoeuvers requires effective command and control between different arms, and lots of practice at leadership level and lot of training at soldier level.

The above strategy led to victory in first battle of Tarain.

We discussed earlier the inability of defenders to maintain large standing armies, or how their standing armies got dispersed dealing with law and order issues in different provinces.

At Panipat 1 or Karnal, defending armies are rapidly put together, and despite larger numbers, the troops have hardly know the role they're supposed to play, or practiced together, and the leaders have hardly practiced effective command and control. Even the Marathas in previous battles had fought mobile battles using mobile columns, and not set piece battles. During Panipat 3, different contingents were put together without developing cohesion on what role each would play.

Under these circumstances, when leaders and troops havent practiced, typically all three wings advance together and hope to break through enemy lines. This is the easiest strategy for leaders to implement, and doesnt require much command, coordination and communication. However, this leads to one team advancing faster than the other, and cavalry coming in front of artillery. This is what happened at Panipat 3.

Even the earlier Rajput cavalry charges were massive frontal assaults, because cavalry contingents, drawn from different feudal leaders from different parts of the province, didnt have time to practice together as an army, and hence those massive cavalry frontal assaults, that were easier for leaders to coordinate or troopers to implement.
Atri wrote:Few pages ago, Airavatji has discussed about time taken by the contemporary artillery to reload and be ready to fire. This was about 90 minutes during Babar's era. I will have to search for documents regarding the time for reloading in Maratha era, but lets assume after 200 years of progress, the time reduced to 30 minutes. After an opening salvo by artillery, musketeers and pikemen had to defend the line while the role of cavalry is to charge when morale of enemy is about to waver an then drive them off, killing as many as possible during enemy column's flight. However they should not go too far and should return back to the safe-zone before 30 minutes. If they venture too far and/or linger too long, they may come under friendly fire. (This is what happened. Ibrahim khan had to stop firing because along with pathans, Marathas too came under his range.)
Ummm...I dont know about Turkish/Persian cannons but I have spent a lot of time researching French/British cannons from 1650 to 1850 since these are available in naval bases and cantonments across India. These could fire 15 kg to 30 kg shots and weighed between 1 to 3 tons, including carriage, and could be dismantled aboard ships to be deployed ashore. Also, with a trained crew, they had a much faster rate of fire, once in 5 minutes. The Marathas were supposed to have French cannons, but I doubt the French sold the latest stuff or trained them to European standards.

Added later - what I spent lifetime understanding, google does it in seconds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_arti ... ge_of_Sail
darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2937
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by darshhan »

Atri wrote:
this is the flaw in Indian narrative which needs to be corrected. Personally, I am not much in favour of giving more publicity to non-events like Panipat 3.0. Nothing changed after that battle on hindu side. It was the invading side and islamic side which were devastated due to this battle. It is their misfortune that their doom came in disguise of victory. Something which pakis shag about even today.
Completely agree with you Atri ji.I have been unable to understand why Panipat 3 is portrayed as being so important.There were many battles and campaigns that were much more important during the very same time frame.But then these battles will never satisfy the leftist agenda.By the way within 10 yrs of Panipat 3 , Marathas were in control of North India again and stronger than ever.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Lalmohan »

can some of you guys compile an honest timeline and report on decisive victorious battles that PRESERVED the status quo of indic civilisational power?
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by tsarkar »

There were more victories in defeats...My list of victories would be -

1. Marthanda Varma and Nair Pattalan in Battle of Colachel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Colachel Kicked the Dutch out
2. Campaigns of Zorawar Singh, that bought Baltistan and Ladakh under Dogra rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Zorawar_Singh and Battle of Chusul 1842
3. Campaigns of Hari Singh Nalwa, and his last fight along with Balbhadra and the Gurkhas at Jamrud
4. First Anglo Afghan War - fought mostly by Purbia, Maratha, Mahar and Madras regiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Afghan_War
5. Second Anglo Afghan War - More regiments participated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Afghan_War
6. Battle of Khushab in Iran/Persia 1856
7. Boxer Rebellion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion
8. Battle of Peking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Peking which is the reason for present Chinese animosity towards Indians
9 and finally Battle of Chusul 1962 http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... ushul.html

Frankly, Zorawar Singh and Hari Singh Nalwa's exploits both sides of the Himalayas are adequete proof of Indian's strategic thinking and military might. Sadly, we do not emulate these leaders.
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

darshhan wrote:
Atri wrote:
this is the flaw in Indian narrative which needs to be corrected. Personally, I am not much in favour of giving more publicity to non-events like Panipat 3.0. Nothing changed after that battle on hindu side. It was the invading side and islamic side which were devastated due to this battle. It is their misfortune that their doom came in disguise of victory. Something which pakis shag about even today.
Completely agree with you Atri ji.I have been unable to understand why Panipat 3 is portrayed as being so important.There were many battles and campaigns that were much more important during the very same time frame.But then these battles will never satisfy the leftist agenda.By the way within 10 yrs of Panipat 3 , Marathas were in control of North India again and stronger than ever.
You are talking about 10 years, Darshan ji..

On February 10 1761 (within a month from battle), Abdali sent the letter of truce to Peshwa who had reached Jhansi with 50,000 troops to revert back to status quo. He left Delhi in March leaving all the matters of north to Peshwa to continue things as before. Marathas got the lost north back without fighting within a month after defeat, much to the heart-burn of Najib. They did not exercise that control for next decade due to death of nanasaheb and stupidity of raghoba. . This is how Paki-ness ends. Najib was the Papa-Paki . As usual, these proto-Pakis were left malishing and palishing their mijjile without gaining anything, but ill-will of Marathas, Afghans and other Indians. they did not leave their paki-ness and continued to attack and downhill ski, until shindes relieved the earth of their existence. najib's descendant was made to accept Sikhism, as far as I know.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by vishvak »

(unnecessary mail perhaps, deleted)
Last edited by vishvak on 19 Aug 2011 02:40, edited 1 time in total.
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 695
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by csharma »

Was it Dhanaji Jadhav who came close to killing Aurangzeb when he was retreating from Deccan? One historian wrote that Jadhav could have killed Aurangzeb but was overawed by the royal camp of Aurangzeb.
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16271
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by SwamyG »

Chennai, did not exist then as we know today. Hence I used the word "current". But several outskirts of current 'Chennai' existed as villages or hamlets. Kanchi and Mabhabalipuram were more prominent than these tiny hamlets. But they had lots of temples. For example the old Shiva temple near Thirumullaivoyal - outskirts of current Chennai - is old and dated to the Chola times.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Airavat »

Atri is discounting the importance of the Jat kingdom of Bharatpur. They were the immediate gainers from the 3rd Battle of Panipat, as their treasury was safe from both Maratha and Afghan claims, and their army was intact while most other powers were exhausted from the recent conflict. Their ruler Suraj Mal captured the Mughal city of Agra, fought against Najib Khan who was holding Delhi on behalf of Abdali, but was unlucky to be killed. To take revenge, his son Jawahir Singh besieged Delhi after hiring Gosains, Marathas, and Sikhs....but Najib managed to defend the city. Frustrated by this failure, Jawahir hired European-led Purbia battalions, picked a fight with Jaipur state, and captured Maratha possessions in Malwa. After his death therefore the first task of the returned Marathas was to curb the power of the Jat kingdom. And these events went as follows:

Image
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Battle of Karnal

Post by Airavat »

Battle of Karnal 1739 from Later Mughals

The news of Nadir Shah having crossed the river at Attock must have reached Dihli on 10th January, 1739. Then the imperial army was urged to hurry on. The Court still hoped for much from the stand to be made by Zakariya Khan whom they had refused to reinforce. But when that poor governor [of Punjab] proved no match for the world-conqueror, the cry of treachery was raised : the Hindustani party at Court falsely accused the Khan of having disloyally surrendered Lahor fort to the Persians, as he was a man from Khurasan like Nadir himself.

At the first bruit of Nadir Shah's invasion, the imperial Court had discovered its incompetence and summoned the Nizam to give it counsel. He was the last survivor of the great age of Aurangzeb, a grey-haired veteran of many fights, a man rich in the experience of life, and an expert in diplomacy. But the Nizam was not given the supreme command and dictatorial authority which such a crisis required, nor did he enjoy the confidence of his master, whose ears were possessed by Khan Dauran and the Hindustani party. This Khan Dauran had a very high opinion of Rajput valour. He caused farmans to be sent summoning to the Emperor's aid his own proteges the Hindu Rajahs, especially Sawai Jai Singh. But Rajputana had been hopelessly alienated since Aurangzeb 's time, and Jai Singh and other chieftains were now aiming at political salvation by declaring their independence and calling in the Mahrattas to help in dissolving the Empire. The Rajahs made excuses and delayed coming. Muhammad Shah even appealed to Baji Rao, as we learn from the following letter of the Peshwa to his general Pilaji Jadon : —

"I shall march to Northern India by regular stages. The Persian sovereign Tahmasp Quli has come to conquer the world. To help Muhammad Shah I am sending the Malwa force under Malhar Rao Holkar, Ranuji Sindhia, and [Udaji] Puar. It is a glory to this monarchy [i.e., the Mahratta State] to help the Emperor of Dihli at such a time." [Raj. vi. No. 130.] But reliance on the Mahrattas, even if seriously contemplated, proved like leaning on a broken reed. No Dakhini force came to the Emperor's assistance at Karnal, or even in time to defend Dihli after the imperial defeat in the field. On the contrary, the Mahratta envoy in the Emperor's camp at Karnal was glad to make his escape by jungle paths on 25th February and seek safety by retreating as far south as Jaipur. Baji Rao himself in his next letter, is found contemplating the defence of the Narmada line to bar the southward advance of Nadir. A Mahratta defence of Northern India was not to be thought of.

Rival armies at Karnal

The Persian army at Karnal is estimated by Rustam AH at 55,000 horse. This number is nearest the truth. We know from Mirza Mahdi's history that Nadir Shah had started from Persia with 80,000 troops, and though he had enlisted Afghans on the way and possibly also received drafts from home, he had to detach large forces to garrison the many conquered forts and guard the long line of communication in his rear, as well as to escort his eldest son on his return to Persia. The entire Persian camp contained 160,000 souls, of whom one-third were servants, but these were all mounted and some of them completely armed, so that they could take part in plunder and the defence of their baggage.

Anandram who was a secretary to the Wazir and accompanied the army to Panipat, puts the number as 50,000 horsemen besides the personal contingents of the three nobles. We know that the Nizam had brought with himself only 3000 men. So, the total Indian fighting force at Karnal could not have exceeded 75,000 men. But the number of non-combatants with it was excessive. The circuit of the Indian camp is said by one authority to have been twelve miles. But such an enormous length of wall could not be adequately defended against an active enemy with a very mobile cavalry and light artillery carried on camels. The result was that the Indian army from the very outset lost its mobility and aggressive power, and became helplessly beleaguered like the Mahratta army of Sadashiv Bhao in the town of Panipat 22 years later.

On receiving his master's appeal for aid, Saadat Khan had left his province of Oudh at the head of 20,000 horse, artillery and materials of war, and made successive marches for one month to reach Kamal......his camp and baggage slowly straggled behind, in a long line insufficiently guarded, one days march behind, as was the usual thing with Indian armies. We have seen that on the 12th the Persian scouts had advanced 32 miles from their own camp and secured news of Saadat Khan's position at Panipat. About midnight, 12th February, Saadat Khan arrived near Karnal. He was welcomed a mile in advance by Khan Dauran and conducted within the lines. In the morning he waited on the Emperor. After the usual courtesies had been exchanged, a council of war was held in the imperial presence and plans of operations were being discussed, when news arrived that the Persian advanced skirmishers had fallen upon Saadat Khan's baggage and were carrying off 500 loaded camels.

As Saadat Khan came to the field, the Persian skirmishers pretended flight; he gave them chase and was thus lured away to a distance of two miles from his camp. Saadat Khan now formed the Right Wing which was in the extreme east and near the Jamuna, Khan Dauran's division now became the Centre and stood in the middle of the plain, while the Wazir and the Emperor formed the Left Wing bordering on the canal. But this army was a mob ; it lacked cohesion ; it had no animating soul, no unity of command nor indeed any leading at all. The extremely mobile enemy, led by the greatest living general in Asia, struck the Indian host or evaded it as they found most advantageous to them. When, a little after midday, Saadat Khan's army was seen to come forth to the plain, news of it was at once carried to Nadir. He was highly elated to hear of it. He had been wishing for such a day, as his Court historian remarks, and it had come unexpectedly soon. The Indian army had been drawn out of its strongly entrenched position, and at last a battle of manoeuvres was possible in which the Persian general could show his genius.

The Persian skirmishers had effectively screened their main position where Nadir had stationed 3000 of his best troops, dismounted his swivels and ranged them along the front with their barrels resting on prongs. The battle began a little after one o'clock in the afternoon, with a discharge of arrows on both sides. The Persian scouts pretended flight, turning back in their saddles and discharging their bows and muskets while galloping, in the manner of their Parthian ancestors. Saadat Khan gave chase and was thus drawn to the ambush three or four miles east of the imperial camp and the support of its artillery. Suddenly the cavalry screen drew aside in front and Saadat Khan's army was assailed by the discharge of many hundred swivel-guns at point-blank range. The bravest of his troopers who rode foremost fell. After standing this murderous fire for a short while, the Indian vanguard fled. The same fate overtook Khan Dauran's division. The Nizam, though the ablest general on the Indian side, was absolutely inert throughout the day and gave no help to Khan Dauran or Saadat Khan, probably because he hoped (as Abdul Karim suggests) to take the places of these rivals at Court if they perished.

The Emperor with his other nobles stood in battle order by the side of the canal (in the extreme west of the field) expecting an attack. But Nadir Shah kept his men back from assaulting such a strongly fortified position and its heavy artillery ; he had a surer and easier means of compelling the Emperor's submission. At sunset, Muhammad Shah retired to his camp, after having all that dav done absolutely nothing to save his throne and his people. The battle was over in less than three hours.

Nadir was not really a Persian, but a Turk of a tribe settled on the Persian soil for centuries past. His soldiers were Turks and other nomads (like the Kurds), and not Persians proper. He conversed with Muhammad Shah in Turkish. The true Persians are an Aryan people, with a strong Semitic strain infused into them after the Muslim conquest, but they have little Turanian or Turkish racial admixture.

Causes of Defeat

The only musketeers of any value in the Mughal army in the 17th century were the Hindus of Buxar, the Bundelas, the Karnatakis (of whom there were many in the service of the Bijapur Sultans, but none under the Later Mughals), and a small class of hunters called Bahelias usually recruited in the Allahabad province. The immense majority of the Indian soldiers did not fight with muskets, nor did they, as a rule, carry into the field portable light artillery of the jazail class in large numbers. The Indian ordnances were heavy cumbrous and of a more antiquated type than those of Persia and Turkey, and therefore the fire delivered by them was usually slow and inaccurate enough to be neglected. The Indian soldiers were trained to stake everything on the shock charge of heavy cavalry and hand to hand grapple. They had little mobility.

Not so the Qizilbashes in the Persian service. Like their fellow-Turanians in Trans-oxiana or in the armies of the Usmanli Sultans of Constantinople, they formed the best cavalry in Asia, — hardy and fast horsemen, mounted on the fleetest and strongest breed of horses [paging Advait :mrgreen: ], and trained to the saddle from their childhood, as became a nomad race. They were also capital archers, accustomed to shoot from the saddle and fight while fleeing. They had a decisive advantage over the Indians, as men fighting with missiles have over those who can employ side-arms only.
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 695
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by csharma »

When Marathas captured Aurangzeb, well almost

Source: A history of Maratha people By C. A Kincaid and Rao Bahadur D. B. PARASNIS. pages 117-118
Seeing that the grand army was about to fall back, the Marathas strained every nerve to destroy it, before it reached a place of safety. Hamid-ud-din Khan was in charge of tlie Moghul rearguard. But so anxious was he to save himself, that he gave the post of danger to younger and untried officers. Between Bahadurpur and Ahmadnagar, which the retreating army was struggling to reach, Dhanaji Jadav with a great Maratha force fell upon the rearguard. It was entirely destroyed or dispersed, its commanders were killed or held to ransom and the emperor's own baggage train was taken. Indeed had Dhanaji Jadav pressed his success he could have captured Aurangzib himself. But when the Marathas had cut their way to the emperor's bodyguards, the near presence and pomp of majesty so overawed them, that they did not dare advance. To this circumstance alone Aurangzib owed his escape from their arms.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Battle of Karnal

Post by vishvak »

Airavat wrote: trained to the saddle from their childhood, as became a nomad race. They were also capital archers, accustomed to shoot from the saddle and fight while fleeing.
Not to mean disrespect, but the narrative takes for granted that once a culture settles down, fitness becomes optional. That nomads are naturally fit (correct), 'and also fitter'.

So is fitness and balanced lifestyle an option to the civilized? It looks like it is made an option, which it is not. Did the nomads and barbarians own right to be 'fitter than others'?

Just to add, do we have anything of sort of 'Gym culture' next to Shiva temples or Bajaranga Bali? I remember reading somewhere that just before times of Shivaji the culture did change from docile cultivators to include exercise culture, and it solidified/matured exactly during times of Shivaji. I think Samartha Ramadasaji maharaja pointed this out prominently as a part of Shiva adoration or how you put it during the times.

More here Spiritual Development part mentioned, may not be exhaustive
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Lalmohan »

nomads were not necessarily "fitter", but they were more accustomed to harsh conditions, almost continuous physical activity, difficult to find food, and almost continuous fighting (over pasture, herds, women, etc.) and therefore had greater endurance under difficult operating conditions than say farmers or city dwellers. the average fitness and endurance of a troop of nomad horse men is therefore likely to be higher than those of urban stock.

for a modern comparison, look at the disparity between the serbian militia and the nato troops in the bosnian peace keeping force - the former were far hardier than the latter
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Singha »

I think it all boils down to training - a standing army of a settled empire can be equally effective if given the right tools and training and led with proper C3I, not a hastily thrown together cobble of warlord armies and a committee of inept nobles as the leadership.

the invaders mostly had the advantage of having fought a bunch of battles before even reaching india and learnt to work together, being led by single autocratic personalities and ofcourse mobility which is already mentioned.
Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3065
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Kanson »

SwamyG wrote:Chennai, did not exist then as we know today. Hence I used the word "current". But several outskirts of current 'Chennai' existed as villages or hamlets. Kanchi and Mabhabalipuram were more prominent than these tiny hamlets. But they had lots of temples. For example the old Shiva temple near Thirumullaivoyal - outskirts of current Chennai - is old and dated to the Chola times.
Oh my bad.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

SwamyG, Wasn't the Mylapore temple built a long time ago? Way before Chennaipatnam was deeded to EIC? Same with the Parthasarathy temple.
Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7812
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Prasad »

ramana wrote:SwamyG, Wasn't the Mylapore temple built a long time ago? Way before Chennaipatnam was deeded to EIC? Same with the Parthasarathy temple.
Yes. The original temple, assumed to be built by the Pallavas was located on the sea shore. It was destroyed by the portugese. and was later rebuilt on the current spot using some materials from the original. The location is supposed to be the place where the san thome basilica now stands.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

Wow I dont know that.I t coluld be correct due to Mahabalipurm not being too far from there.

BTW wiki says Tiruvengadam/Tirupati temple was also built prior to Pallavas and rebuilt by Krishna Deva Raya.
Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10540
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Yagnasri »

Sri Krishna Deva Raya also built the Rajagopuram at Srikalahasthi and the foundation for such huge structure is said to be 11/2 feet only and it stood for 500 years. Fell down when our useless fellows failed to take care of it last year. Many said that it will indicate bad time to come and here we are one year after that.

I am going to Srikalahasthi today to perform Rahukala Puja tomorrow. It is performed during Rahukalam on a Sunday and quite good for us. I did it once with my wife about 3 years back.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

While there look at how square(aligned) all the pillars are and look at the ceiling murals. They were painted during the Cholas.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Airavat »

Advait wrote:There was something wrong with our ancient rulers for not going after the invaders to their homelands and put an end to their attacks for good. The invaders always lived to fight another day.

"They had better horses/chariots" is not a valid excuse.

Whatever advantage they had, our rulers could have easily replicated or neturalized it if they put their minds to it. Ancient tech/strategy gap was not that huge. All they had to do was import horses, technicians, artists etc and improve the native defense/offense capacity.
This angst-ridden post was not worth responding to, but having posted the details of the Battle of Karnal, hope it becomes clear that even those who came from Central Asia could not start breeding their horses in India. The bracing climate and the vast open terrain were simply not available; and Central Asian horses when bred in a tropical climate with the land dotted by multitudes of villages, farms, jungles, marshes, had no way to develop like the way they did in their original homeland by daily galloping unhindered across hundreds of miles. Hence in India they lost all their original characteristics. Secondly, neither the Delhi Sultante or the Mughals retaliated against the Mongols or the Iranians; so this whine about "ancient Hindus" smacked of ignorance and was quite disrespectful. Anyway, all this had been covered in previous pages of this very thread.

Two questions that stand out:

1) Why couldn't artillery and firearms develop at the same pace as the outside world. Having been introduced by Mughals in North India, we find their descendants unable to match the Persian enemy even in this respect.

2) With such a long coastline and a great seafaring tradition, why couldn't Indian naval powers develop their capacity to match developments in the west?
Last edited by Airavat on 20 Aug 2011 08:14, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

Also Muhammad Bin Tughlaq raised a very large army and sent it to fight in Central Asia. He lost quite a large number of soldiers. Akbar sent his son and Birbal to recover Blakh and Badakshan. Birbal lost his life. So its not that no attempts were made but they were not successful.

Bappa Rawal's kingdom extended till the Suleiman Mountains. Now no one remembers.In fact Rawalpindi means Rawal's village.

Zorawar Singh fought and extended Kashmir's frontiers.
Post Reply