The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[abhischekcc]

Its whitemail not blackmail.

Clever words, but meaningless. AH group has very little depth, you can't run a revolution using SMS. Political parties have legitimacy of the vote, and it is individuals who get sacrificed when a corruption case occurs.

However, AH group can crumble when only one person will be proved corrupt. Because they have only each others' high opinion of each other as legitimacy.

[rajanb]

As an aside: CJ, you are a cool guy. Glad to see you excited.

rajanb ji,

I have not watched TV for more than a decade. Past 3-4 days I am glued to it like an owl. IMO Chidu, kapil Sibal, Ambika Soni, manish tiwari , renuka chowdhry, rahul gandhi, Sonia Gandhi should be put in this seasons Big Boss series (reality show) and Anna hazare should be introduced into the house in sly. It will be Mind Blowing

I gave up watching noose channels. Didn't trust whose cause they were championing. But I am glad that Arnab Goswami has been very even handed.

My POV? What binds all parties? CORRUPTION.

Hopefully, in time, my elected representative will give us a report card as to what he is doing, after each parl session.

[Sanku]

I see a lot of congress minded folks are trying to slip in attacks against BJP in the guise of support for Anna.

Not going to sail either.

[Sanku]

My POV? What binds all parties? CORRUPTION.

The only person who can say this is whose understanding of politics stays within bounds of Congress brand of politics.

[abhischekcc]

Anna wants 'his' version of the Lokpal bill to be accepted as law without debate in, modification, etc. Is that democratic? Can you save democracy by subverting it? I don't think so. I have watched the personal habits of the core team, and I say with trepidation that all of them seem to be suffering from varying degrees of 'Messiah complex' - the feeling that what I say is correct and anybody who opposes me has to be evil, regardless of proof. Its disheartening that the largest and most intense anti-corruption movement to be launched in India is led by people whose mental balance is increasingly questionable. They have put Anna into martyr mode, which is the final stage of Messiah complex.

Their current state will make their behavior increasingly unstable and unreliable - a time bomb waiting to happen.

[Murugan]

AH group has very little depth

Thats why govt made it a party in such a crucial bill.

You can't run a revolution using SMS.

Govt is very serious about. May prohibit Mass SMSing very soon.

[Murugan]

Anna wants 'his' version of the Lokpal bill to be accepted as law without debate in, modification, etc. Is that democratic?

Anna went on record to say that let they introduce his bill and discuss it in parliament. Parliament ko jo karna hai wo kare!

(And who prevents government to involve others. Govt is very powerful, it can still reject jan lok pal.)

Regarding messiah complex of Team Anna members, one cannot play yudhisthir and win against wily kauravs!

[IndraD]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 664784.cms

The Anna movement is manuwadi, castiest in nature, it threatens dalits according to this article from (who else but) ToI

Who are these people being named in this article, never heard of them as think tank of dalits? They look more like people on pay roll of congress , why has Times of india taken so much kasht to publish this on front page, congress and media stooge are again trying to use same formula of divide and rule.
Shame on ToI for what it has become.

The certified and approved representative of dalit like Mayawati has supported AH movement anyway.

[chackojoseph]

I gave up watching noose channels. Didn't trust whose cause they were championing. But I am glad that Arnab Goswami has been very even handed.

My POV? What binds all parties? CORRUPTION.

Hopefully, in time, my elected representative will give us a report card as to what he is doing, after each parl session.

They work on omissions and commission. I have been dealing with the kind for sometime. What you will get half baked or fully baked truth. No raw truth.

My suggestion is watch noose channels. Reporters are wired too. They are known to needle the party which takes the needle. Congress is huddled and they will go after them.

Also, people are really angry. Congess needs to be told that they are not rulers and are elected representatuves. People have behaved more responsibly than Congress ministers.

abhischekcc,

Anna is saying consider his draft in parliamnt. You should know better that how Chidambram and Kapil Sibal have behaved during drafting inspite of their being educated. Look at Anna's mindset 1) give water to farmers 2) Give electricity to farmers 3) Schools etc. He is saying: Paani de raha hai ki nahi? Bijli de raha hai ya nahi? Pass kar raha hai ya nahi? He has dealt with so many politicians that he knows excatly how to deal with them. Try going the polite way. You will spend your life time and you will not get your job done.

You know, 40 years, they don't touch the bill. When Anna lifts his voice, they insult him and try to pass a pass time bill. You should be thankful that he has stopped Indian democracy being gobbled by the dynasity.

[Murugan]

Ironically, nobody in previous/this govt with a little 'depth' tried sincerly to adopt effective lok pal bill in last 40 years!!!

[Murugan]

People have behaved more responsibly than Congress ministers.

+1

[BijuShet]

My POV? What binds all parties? CORRUPTION.

The only person who can say this is whose understanding of politics stays within bounds of Congress brand of politics.

+1 Sankuji.

Congress ruled this country for 60 years and gave birth to the broken institutions and corrupt practises yet congress supporters spend a lot of time cursing all parties and politicians. These supporters also happen to be direct beneficiaries of these corrupt practises and fear the loss of previleges when congress loses power. Hence it is these birds on BRF and outside who will always sing loudly that Every politician is corrupt. Without breaking the backs of such supporters the stranglehold on power of congress will never be broken in India. I think Anna's current campaign is one such movement and I hope many more will come until India is rid of congress and its apologists.

[chackojoseph]

One point which no one is talking is that Ministers left to themselves will never pass a bill that will be oversee them. In the parliament debate, many politicians said that they are honest. By same logic, the courts should be scrapped. Most people are law abiding citizens, then why so many law rules and lawers and legal system. I cannot say that since I have not broken a law, the legal system should not exist.

Jan lokpal is a court for these politicians. If they do no wrong, they will not be taken to task. If they do, then they have a reason to worry.

[abhischekcc]

You know, 40 years, they don't touch the bill. When Anna lifts his voice, they insult him and try to pass a pass time bill. You should be thankful that he has stopped Indian democracy being gobbled by the dynasity.

Just today, a policeman (in Haryana, no less) let me go for a traffic violation without taking a bribe or confiscating my documents. So, yes, decency does work in this country also.

But while I agree with most of the rest of your post, I do not agree with the assertion that AH stopped the dynasty from gobbling up the country. Many cases of corruption and unconstitutional behavior were done by the dynasty much before AH appeared on the scene. Yes, it is true that Sonia Gandhi has fled the country now, but I also cannot overlook the fact the Team Anna collaborated with her group (NAC) in the initial stages of the movement. Or that Anna Hazare did not act according to his conscience when he praised Modi, and then criticised him when someone from his team told him to shut up about Modi. This flip flop on Modi shows lack of independence - I wonder just who is running the show from behind the scene.

[chackojoseph]

abhischekcc,

I understand your POV.

I just want to add one thing. Anna is a simple man. After food he decides to go on fast for something that is on his mind. it turns into a national debate. We cannot understand him if we try to see complexity in him.

[rajanb]

One point which no one is talking is that Ministers left to themselves will never pass a bill that will be oversee them. In the parliament debate, many politicians said that they are honest. By same logic, the courts should be scrapped. Most people are law abiding citizens, then why so many law rules and lawers and legal system. I cannot say that since I have not broken a law, the legal system should not exist.

Jan lokpal is a court for these politicians. If they do no wrong, they will not be taken to task. If they do, then they have a reason to worry.

+1 CJ

Sanku and Biju, I will repeat again (as I have in earlier posts) that I do not subscribe to any party. And let us agree to disagree.

I have stayed in Maharashtra for 33 years and have been in Karnataka for the last 10 years. I have seen the modus operandi of various parties over 45 years as an adult.

I respect the right to your views and I hope as gentlemen, you will respect the right to mine.

O/T for the thread.

[praksam]

from twitter:

vbg111 Vishwabandhu Gupta
Reliable reports reveal that Sonia Gandhi is quite down with cancer and is worried about her son.

[Murugan]

abcc

+1 on flip flop of Anna on modi. It is like Ramdev declaring that no political neta will be allowed to speak on ramlila maidan (indicating Advani). BR had also a samjouta with ruling govt!

But why make anna as an issue? People of india is mobilised for a common cause and all are chanting vande mataram! As a positivie spin, more and more young people know about Swami Vivekanand and Bhagat Singh/Rajguru/Sukhdev, they know about constitution, politics and lot more. Boons in disguise (!)

[rajanb]

from twitter:

vbg111 Vishwabandhu Gupta
Reliable reports reveal that Sonia Gandhi is quite down with cancer and is worried about her son.

I had this news from a senior chaiwalla, a couple of days back, in the civil services that her situation is serious. Worse than imagined before the surgery.

[abhischekcc]

One point which no one is talking is that Ministers left to themselves will never pass a bill that will be oversee them. In the parliament debate, many politicians said that they are honest. By same logic, the courts should be scrapped. Most people are law abiding citizens, then why so many law rules and lawers and legal system. I cannot say that since I have not broken a law, the legal system should not exist.

Jan lokpal is a court for these politicians. If they do no wrong, they will not be taken to task. If they do, then they have a reason to worry.

JC,

It is never as simple as that. Take DSK (former IMF chief) example. He was accused of rape, disgraced, and forced to resign from IMF chief post because he called for an alternative to the USD. Now, it has turned out, that he did not actually rape the maid. But the damage had been done. It is very unlikely that DSK will ever regain his post, and the drive for a USD alternative has been shelved with something as cheap as a mud slinging campaign.

Similarly, it is quite possible under the present JLB, that the PM can be bullied by a similar mud slinging campaign. And given the blackmailing nature that Team Anna has displayed, I have very little faith in their goodwill.

----------
The People of India deserve better than to be ruled by a bunch of self righteous goons.

Now, I know you will argue that these self righteous goons are better than the current set of politicians, but at least we have some control over the politicians in the form of voting.
What control will we have over the election of lokpals? They will be selected by Bharat Ratna winners, Magsaysay winners, and Nobel prize winners. BUT:
1. Bharat Ratna winners are determined by Indian politicians,
2. Magsaysay winners are determined by Philipino politicians, who are influenced by American politicians,
3. Nobel winners are determined by Swedish politicians, who are influenced by American politicians

So, the selection of lokpal will NOT free India from politicians, but will make it even more opaque and irresponsible to the people of India, in addition to making India open to influence from American, Swedish, and Filipino politicians.

[abhischekcc]

I had this news from a senior chaiwalla, a couple of days back, in the civil services that her situation is serious. Worse than imagined before the surgery.

Well if that is true then I would take back my words and owe her an apology.

[ramana]

Abhishek there is difference between seeing and observing.

I think we are only seeing and not observing. AH has an impact on the 2Gs.

rajanb, Is even the coast correct?

[rajanb]

Ironically, nobody in previous/this govt with a little 'depth' tried sincerly to adopt effective lok pal bill in last 40 years!!!

+400%

But how can we expect elected "representatives" (who do not represent, leave alone understand what that means) vote a bill which will hang them if they are corrupt?

[rajanb]

I had this news from a senior chaiwalla, a couple of days back, in the civil services that her situation is serious. Worse than imagined before the surgery.

Well if that is true then I would take back my words and owe her an apology.

As you have been treated well by a policeman, I have been lucky too. But, that has not taken away from the fact that I have seen people having to bribe, not for personal or monetary advancement, but for what is their right as citizens.

Once at an international airport, I noticed an immigration officer take money from some arab women to let them leave the country.

Expand the possibilities. A terrorist/gangster et al can leave the country in a hurry by paying a bribe? The possibilities are endless.

[abhischekcc]

Well, for this one good policeman, I must have paid off 3-4 others for traffic violations.

[chackojoseph]

JC,

It is never as simple as that. Take DSK (former IMF chief) example. He was accused of rape, disgraced, and forced to resign from IMF chief post because he called for an alternative to the USD. Now, it has turned out, that he did not actually rape the maid. But the damage had been done. It is very unlikely that DSK will ever regain his post, and the drive for a USD alternative has been shelved with something as cheap as a mud slinging campaign.

Similarly, it is quite possible under the present JLB, that the PM can be bullied by a similar mud slinging campaign. And given the blackmailing nature that Team Anna has displayed, I have very little faith in their goodwill.

----------
The People of India deserve better than to be ruled by a bunch of self righteous goons.

Now, I know you will argue that these self righteous goons are better than the current set of politicians, but at least we have some control over the politicians in the form of voting.
What control will we have over the election of lokpals? They will be selected by Bharat Ratna winners, Magsaysay winners, and Nobel prize winners. BUT:
1. Bharat Ratna winners are determined by Indian politicians,
2. Magsaysay winners are determined by Philipino politicians, who are influenced by American politicians,
3. Nobel winners are determined by Norwegian politicians, who are influenced by American politicians

So, the selection of lokpal will NOT free India from politicians, but will make it even more opaque and irresponsible to the people of India, in addition to making India open to influence from American, Norwegian, and Filipino politicians.

With all the laws around, there is no gurantee that no person who will slander me. Its a double edged sword. Who knows that with Lokpal, some minister might be actually proved innocent one day?

What you don't understand is that there is no black mail. Self Righteous goons as you put it is something you should understand. people haev stopped believing in the system. UPA is running its own thing. Gas price, Exempt Exempt Tax in DTC, petrol, vege etc have gone outta hand. congress is actually bullying us. Price rise should not be attributed to them, is what they tell opposition when they were heckled. they will muzzle Anna who asked for accountability. You have heard kapil Sibal saying in parliament "these civil society people and common people have to be told by us", manish tiwari on national media making false accusations etc.

Lokpal will not free India from corruption. But with no lokpal there is no hope.

[rajanb]

Abhishek there is difference between seeing and observing.

I think we are only seeing and not observing. AH has an impact on the 2Gs.

rajanb, Is even the coast correct?

Sorry Ramana. Didn't understand the reference to coast?

And BTW, AH has impact on 3Gs. Let you figure out who the third is!

[sanjeevpunj]

Dalit groups are already feeling threatened.http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 664784.cms
'Anna Hazare's movement is anti-social justice, manuwadi.

NEW DELHI: The anti-corruption movement led by Anna Hazare has found huge support across the country. But several prominent dalit activists, intellectuals as well as those writing regularly on dalit issues have severely castigated the movement. They say it is casteist in nature and against representative democracy.
Dalit columnist Chandrabhan Prasad says Team Anna seems to have a profound contempt for constitutionalism. "The Anna Hazare phenomenon is leading us to the rejection of representative democracy itself. The movement is an upper-caste uprising against India's political democracy. That apart, vesting so much power in the Lokpal, a non-elected person, could lead to a dangerous situation," he says.
Hyderabad-based dalit-bahujan thinker Kancha Ilaiah offers similar views. "The Anna movement is an anti-social justice, manuvadi movement. The Dalits, tribals, OBCs and minorities have nothing to do with it. We oppose it," he says.
Dalit activists insist that corruption means much more than just bribes and kickbacks. "For us casteism is corruption, caste-discrimination is corruption, not filling up reserved seats as per constitutional norms is also corruption. Is Anna and his team willing to talk about all these?" says Anoop Kheri, coordinator of Insight Foundation, that helps Dalit and adivasi students in higher education.

In due course, the euphoria of a mass movement will give in to questions that AH's team will have to answer satisfactorily.If they fail to get the support of Dalit groups, there are possibilities of a failed movement, despite the hard work being put in.It would be wise for AH Team to prepare themselves for such questions, nothing can be swept under the carpet.

[KLNMurthy]

@abhishekcc I have many reservations about team AH but they can't afford to go off the rails too much as they have to operate in the open and there are many moderating voices.

[Murugan]

Dalit groups are already feeling threatened.http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 664784.cms
'Anna Hazare's movement is anti-social justice, manuwadi.

NEW DELHI: The anti-corruption movement led by Anna Hazare has found huge support across the country. But several prominent dalit activists, intellectuals as well as those writing regularly on dalit issues have severely castigated the movement. They say it is casteist in nature and against representative democracy.
Dalit columnist Chandrabhan Prasad says Team Anna seems to have a profound contempt for constitutionalism. "The Anna Hazare phenomenon is leading us to the rejection of representative democracy itself. The movement is an upper-caste uprising against India's political democracy. That apart, vesting so much power in the Lokpal, a non-elected person, could lead to a dangerous situation," he says.
Hyderabad-based dalit-bahujan thinker Kancha Ilaiah offers similar views. "The Anna movement is an anti-social justice, manuvadi movement. The Dalits, tribals, OBCs and minorities have nothing to do with it. We oppose it," he says.
Dalit activists insist that corruption means much more than just bribes and kickbacks. "For us casteism is corruption, caste-discrimination is corruption, not filling up reserved seats as per constitutional norms is also corruption. Is Anna and his team willing to talk about all these?" says Anoop Kheri, coordinator of Insight Foundation, that helps Dalit and adivasi students in higher education.

In due course, the euphoria of a mass movement will give in to questions that AH's team will have to answer satisfactorily.If they fail to get the support of Dalit groups, there are possibilities of a failed movement, despite the hard work being put in.It would be wise for AH Team to prepare themselves for such questions, nothing can be swept under the carpet.

Why this people dont have problem with dalit like Raja? and (added later) Bangaru Laxman, why with AH only?

Sanjeevpumj, mayawati bhenji has now supported AH. So no prob till she changes her stance

[sanjeevpunj]

Yes, I was glad to read that she supports AH, but her reasons maybe to look for cover in case her own corruption is under Lokpal enquiry, once the bill comes into force.She made a political move by aligning temporarily.Corruption has no caste, and caste isssues need not be linked to Lokpal, even though INC will try to play this card.

[ramana]

rajanb,
Early on INC spokespersons claimed all is well and she is abroad. Later it was leaked she is in New York on east coast of US. Even doc's name was mentioned.
Is her location correct? Or is that also a red herring?

[BijuShet]

JC,

It is never as simple as that. Take DSK (former IMF chief) example. He was accused of rape, disgraced, and forced to resign from IMF chief post because he called for an alternative to the USD. Now, it has turned out, that he did not actually rape the maid. But the damage had been done. It is very unlikely that DSK will ever regain his post, and the drive for a USD alternative has been shelved with something as cheap as a mud slinging campaign.
...

OT Alert.

Please reread the DSK articles. Ask Google chacha with "chronology of dominique strauss kahn" and you will see that no matter what Unkil's motivation for the arrest, DSK was not an innocent bystander with a loose belt buckle.

[SwamyG]

AbhishekCC's concerns are valid. A group or an individual, alone, cannot suddenly raise and dictate terms to a functioning 'system'. Many now agree because either they dislike INC, INC has shown to be corrupt, INC has shown to keep itself in corrupt company, INC has shown that it has not done anything major to reduce corruption. What if the current ruling party was BJP? I suspect some of us would be singing different tunes.

Democracy apart from being the people's voice, also is a system that 'transfers' power peacefully based on people's voice. The peaceful transfer of power is an important thing that many of us have taken for granted. Also being a system, democracy has a certain rules and processes.

The challenge before India is:
1) Reduce corruption
2) Build a better democratic system.

#1 point has been discussed here and in corruption dhaaga several times. So I am moving on to #2.

We have seen political parties in the last 60+ years have worked hard to stabilize a young modern Democratic India. We now have experience in transferring power easily, seamlessly and in less violent ways than several countries in the World, or how we did even a few decades ago. The next step in democracy is to reform the system, when it does not work the way it was intended. If INC, and to a lesser extent, other parties at national levels and all regional parties at regional level have not done anything significant to reduce corruption, then what are the people to do?

1) Armed resistance or reform
2) Peaceful resistance or reform.

Maoists are involved in the armed resistance based on their version of perception and reality. Barring a narrow fringe, most of us favor peaceful means to reform government and society. So what do people do when their government does not function the way they want it for the last 60 years?

I agree with Manishankar Iyer and AbhishekCC, things can be dangerous if they take life of their own - outside the democratic process. It can be a dark and pretty scary slippery slope.

However where do we draw the line? And when do we draw the line? The line where people say "Enough!!!"

While I do not have answers to the questions, at least three things India could do at national level are:
1) Reduce a government's term to 3 years.
2) Restrict a PM term limit to 1 or 1000 days maximum per life. Once an individual has been a PM for 1000 days, she or he can never again be a PM.
3) Reduce term limits of MPs to 2.

We could have something similar at the State level too.

In my mind, India is at a cusp, it has the opportunity to redefine and reshape what constitutes a democratic country and processes. India, for that matter no country, has to follow a system just because it worked well in the past. Democratic systems are the best we have now, but requires tweaks here and there. Imagine, our national leaders rising to the occasion understanding the problems and redefining the World's future.

ps:
1. Reforms will also reduce the Maoists, without having to fight them with guns.
2. We do miss Rahul Mehta sorely in these times.

[ramana]

I think we are seeing an Indian color revolution and dont even know it. Thats what eh ortuside support ofr AH is. I wouldn't be surprised to see Anna Hazare nominated for Nobel Peace Prize for next year. What INC hasn't realised is that AH is bringing the apathetic crowds to the street who werent even stirred by the constant terror attacks. They were so much drunk with power they didn't know when the ground moved.

I bet the non-Congress UPA parties are working behind scenes to create a no confidence motion to replace the UPA.

[IndraD]

It is being heard from unconfirmed sources that with radiotherapy Sonia is quite down, if there is any truth I would presume an internal scramble in congress for power. Does it add any thing to this development?

[praksam]

From the same twitter:

Henry_Kissinger Henry Kissinger
This week's addition to my #EnemiesList: Indian corruption "activist" Anna Hazare. My response to his childish threats: let him eat cake.

[Prem]

http://themoderatevoice.com/120088/movement-in-india/
(link onlee for cartoon as they forbid coying)

[Prem]

The internet Hindus

'We make the best software, we can build a better India'

Nearly 250 Indian Americans on Thursday took a day off from work to express their support for activist Anna Hazare's fight against corruption by holding a demonstration at the Indian Consulate in San Francisco. India [ Images ]n-Americans holding banners, placards and the tricolour stood at the narrow pathways of the consulate to condemn the "undemocratic and unconstitutional arrest" of Anna Hazare and his aides. Members of India Against Corruption and People for Loksatta submitted a petition condemning the arrest and demanded that the Jan Lokpal Bill be implemented soon.Pramod Mahadevan of India Against Corruption's Bay Area unit told rediff.com, "We are doing this because independence from corruption is the struggle of our generation."Prasanna Meda, president of People of Loksatta Bay Area, a non-profit organisation, hails from Andhra Pradesh."There is a lot of corruption in our state and we want state and district level organisations to come under the ambit of the Lokpal Bill," Meda told rediff.com.
He alleged that in AP, scams were rampant in mines and port operations; they often had the patronage of local politicians.Meda believed that many people had left India because of the high levels of corruption that affected the quality of life. "We have gone through corruption in India by paying bribes. We Indians deserve more than that. We need a strong Lokpal Bill," he said.Nidhi Shah, a student at San Jose State University, was one of those who took a day off from work. "I did not want to lose this opportunity. I regularly follow Indian news channels and I saw hundreds of people protesting against corruption. I always wanted to contribute something for my country. Even though I don't live in India, I care a lot about it," said Shah.She agreed with Meda that the reason so many Indians chose to settle abroad was because they wanted a peaceful life without the scourge of corruption."If we get that in India, why would we settle in another country," said Shah.She added that by joining the protest, "I want to tell them that even though we live outside India, we care about its people and their future."Another protester Jay Sahu said, "I want to support the Jan Lokpal Bill to the best of my ability. Corruption is the biggest concern in India. If we can make the world's best softwares, systems and networks, then we can build a better India too."I have taken an off from work because since the last two days, I have been calling my friends and people I know and requesting their support," said Sahu. "Now it's my responsibility to fight not only for myself but for the people of the nation," he said.

[Cosmo_R]

@abhischekcc et al re AH's 'anti-constitutional stance'. Truth be told, I have not followed this closely but I have the impression (perhaps mistaken) that Lokpal is not about challenging Parliament's right to pass laws, only about acting as a watchdog on the implementation of those laws and the conduct of the MPs and Judiciary.

BTW, anyone have any idea/thoughts of how many LS seats are HMPs (hereditary MPs) and how that distorts representative democracy in addition to the damage that the vote bank paradigm does?.

As to the Dalit murmurings, it's classic INC—enlist them and the commies and convert any challenge into an RSS-driven op.

Kancha Illaiha (whatever) is a guy who should have been arrested for his remarks on Hindus and Hinduism. Long history of casting everything into the 'casteist' mode.