The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Aug 2011 01:15

This does bring back memories of the Bofors marches that I joined a while back with great enthu. Over night viduthalai meetings on marina beach were very popular. Then too the end of corruption was around the corner. Hope this one ends better.

Back then VP Singh was the new bright young thing. He parlayed the movement all the way to PM.

It a shame AH is 75. He needs to find a young firebrand to serve as the face of the movement. 60% of India is under 30, need someone in that age range to take on the Fresh Prince. Sooner or later the congress will win an election under the princeling and thus legitimize him. Same as Sonia remember.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 20 Aug 2011 01:18

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Digging-i ... 35205.aspx

SONIA must be thinking in her bed "YU TU BURKHA"

The UPA’s wounds are entirely self-inflicted. The absurd political mismanagement over the lokpal bill has led to this impasse In the Inferno that is India today, public rage will either start an uncontrollable forest fire or take us to Purgatory where the flames may burn us, but will eventually cleanse our body politic. No matter where you stand on the efficacy of the Jan Lokpal Bill or the method and form of Anna Hazare’s campaign, there is no doubt that because of him India stands at the intersection of churn and dramatic change.
Where we go from here depends on whether the government shows any ability for political initiative. So far it has failed entirely to demonstrate any such imagination. Forget leadership, it appears to have even abandoned an instinct for basic political survival. It has countered street anger and public disenchantment with a drab, dry and purely technical counter-narrative. The UPA has misread the fact that the cult of Hazare is less about the bill and more about being a lightning rod for middle-class angst against an inaccessible, emotionally aloof and seemingly arrogant political leadership.

In fact, sheer ineptitude and a series of missteps by the UPA led to this logjam, where the government has been so conclusively out manoeuvred. And it would be accurate to say that the real crisis that grips India today is not even that of entrenched corruption but a crisis of leadership.

Today it asserts — and rightfully — that the supremacy of Parliament in drafting legislation cannot be undermined. Indeed. But shouldn’t the government have reached out to the political Opposition much earlier both inside and outside Parliament? Instead, it created a panel to draft the Lokpal Bill that shut out the Opposition parties from the process. Why shouldn’t the Opposition leaders have found place on the drafting panel? Why shouldn’t their opinions have been sought by the prime minister from the very start?

Today, the Congress has a point when it questions the derision among many of the protestors for electoral politics. Many of us have expressed our deep disquiet at the dubbing of this protest as a “second freedom struggle,” a slogan that by its very existence ironically misses the fundamental freedoms that are already available to us in a functioning democracy. And some of us are outraged by the easy alliterations used for Tahrir Square and Tihar jail in the same sentence. The point about not trashing our democracy when so many parts of the world are battling for one is very well taken. Yet, hasn’t the Congress completely alienated one section of this country’s citizenry — its middle class. The truth is that India’s political establishment has happily hobnobbed with the rich and electorally courted the rural poor. It’s the middle class that has always been treated with contempt and neglect. Today, it is this class that is enjoying its moment of political revenge.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 20 Aug 2011 01:24

congress missing sonia sorely

As many young Congress MPs expressed their reservation against the government’s decision to arrest Anna Hazare to senior party leaders, the ruling party on Thursday said it was sorely missing party president Sonia Gandhi. This came even as the party continued its flip-flop on the Anna issue, suggesting on Friday that party spokesman Rashid Alvi’s apprehension on Wednesday about US backing of Anna’s movement could be a “human error”.

Asked if the party’s dithering is due to the absence of the Sonia who is recuperating after a surgery abroad, party spokesperson Renuka Chowdhary, at a press briefing on Thursday, said: “There is no doubt we are missing her terribly and we wish her speedy recovery and she will be back in action very soon and till then we are trying to do our best.”

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 20 Aug 2011 01:38

abhischekcc wrote:Anna wants 'his' version of the Lokpal bill to be accepted as law without debate in, modification, etc. Is that democratic? Can you save democracy by subverting it? I don't think so. I have watched the personal habits of the core team, and I say with trepidation that all of them seem to be suffering from varying degrees of 'Messiah complex' - the feeling that what I say is correct and anybody who opposes me has to be evil, regardless of proof. Its disheartening that the largest and most intense anti-corruption movement to be launched in India is led by people whose mental balance is increasingly questionable. They have put Anna into martyr mode, which is the final stage of Messiah complex.

Their current state will make their behavior increasingly unstable and unreliable - a time bomb waiting to happen.

They had multiple versions of the Jan lokpal for public viewing and feedback. They have incorporated best practices of ombudsman agencies from multiple countries. Instead of you cribbing about how their version is bad and will be made law without debate, why dont you go to the janlokpal webste and check out the draft, the salient points and the comparison between Jan lokpal and jokepal.

Again when AH says he wants all facets of Jan lokpal made law, it is just a negototation tactic. Right now there is probably like 40 percent of jan Lokpal in Jokepal, if they can bring it up to 80 or 90 percent, that would be a great first step.

We just need to get this independent agency into being, once we put the fear of jail time to these corrupt babooze and our society in general, things will change. People get reform oriented and will ask for better changes. I mean we just need to first get this independent agency started.

Again, wrt to the messiah complex, democracy blah blah, if they are so sacred, wtf is it not working. How the hell can Salman Kurshid, Manish Tiwari, Kapil Sibal and PC do shit, borderline illegal and get away on live TV. why is the sacred democracy not able to shut them up and ensure that they work towards a corruption free India.

Just take a minute to compare the Jan Lokpal and the trash that the govt has put out.
http://i.imgur.com/mXmsg.jpg

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 20 Aug 2011 01:52

@dnivas ^^^: "Again, wrt to the messiah complex, ..." Agreed. We are not short of Messiahs in any case WRT to INC.

The India Today article
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 48547.html

is damning.

FWIW, IMHO, today all we have is an 'electocracy'—bread and circuses ("600 million people vote" etc) but not a 'democracy' where the elections are followed by governance and accountability.

MMS loves his Wassily Leontieff input/output analysis stuff and Rodney King 'Why can't we all get along?' refrain but he's out of touch as are the rest of them.

It's truly a Marie Antoinette moment waiting to happen.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Aug 2011 02:00

ramana wrote:I think we are seeing an Indian color revolution and dont even know it. Thats what eh ortuside support ofr AH is. I wouldn't be surprised to see Anna Hazare nominated for Nobel Peace Prize for next year. What INC hasn't realised is that AH is bringing the apathetic crowds to the street who werent even stirred by the constant terror attacks. They were so much drunk with power they didn't know when the ground moved.

I bet the non-Congress UPA parties are working behind scenes to create a no confidence motion to replace the UPA.

a-o-a! Ramana-saar/Abhishekcc-saar, from day one, this has been my single biggest anxiety!

There is a scene in the Ridley Scott Gladiator, where Quintus says to Maximus about the Barbarians they are about to attack

Quintus: People should know when they are conquered.
Maximus: Would you, Quintus? Would I?

In our case, we had been the exact opposite - even if we know we are going to be or even already conquered, we try to score point with each other waving "Satyameva Jayathey" figleaves, than fight the shiny roman legions decimating us.

Throughout history it has been our problem. This AH/BR thing has got nothing to do with fixing day to day issues that are sorted out by what media is calling "Corruption". Shree Anna H (despite him seeming to be have a mind of his own) seems to be more predictable and his methods have been well understood by now. Shree BR seems to be lot less predictable and hence risky. Shree BR seems to have been hounded out by the orchestrators, when he did not conform to scripts or because he was deemed unviable to address some sections of public.

In my view, this "corruption" is nothing but common Indians (of all economic background) fixing issues within various rigid westernized frameworks imposed on an immensely diverse country. The solutions for this seems to be even more westernized frameworks (like pakis and more islam). The US had same issues till the early 90s and increasing diversity started throwing their systems too. But what they did is first accept that some systems dont work always and then appreciated the solutions (they too called it corruption) for it. They changed their system to incorporate what was once "corruption". Most recent one was outsourcing most of military sectors to private organizations, despite intense hue and cry. That is what makes them tick, not march into washington, pull down a POTUS and look at European or Chinese systems of law for solutions.

I really dislike the Dynasty and the divisive politics it seem to foster at state level. I really hope they fade out of Indian politics via elections, like yesterday. But this is Color revolution plain and simple and I hope they reach out to their political opponents across spectrum and dissipate this. Everything else they did till now will pale in comparision if they dont do it now.

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 20 Aug 2011 02:23

Anna is not India nor India Anna

With the anti-corruption movement spearheaded by Anna Hazare winning the first round hands down and the United Progressive Alliance government capitulating to its demand that the Gandhian must be allowed to lead an indefinite fast without any restrictions worth speaking about, the focus shifts to what the agitation can expect to achieve in terms of an effective Lokpal Bill. The conditions seem propitious considering that the unintended consequence of a scam-tainted government's initial reaction — which bore the stamp of Pavlovian conditioning — has been the strengthening of the anti-corruption mood in the country. What the agitation symbolised by Mr. Hazare has succeeded in doing is to totally discredit the content of, and the motivation behind, the Lokpal Bill the UPA government has introduced in Parliament — which Prashant Bhushan, a key member of Team Anna, has taken to calling the ‘Promotion of Corruption Bill.' The wise course for the government is to withdraw the Bill immediately, without standing on false prestige. Not to do so would only strengthen the popular perception, reflected in a number of public opinion surveys, that it is bent on perpetuating and covering up corruption.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's exposition of a “constitutional philosophy” in his August 17 statement in the Lok Sabha misses the mark by a mile. Even a cursory look at the history and sociology of how major laws are shaped in India and other parliamentary democracies shows that quite often they are the end product of movements and struggles of various kinds and that the proposition that it is “the sole prerogative of Parliament to make a law” is true only in the most literal, superficial, banal sense. Moreover, in the Indian constitutional scheme (in contrast to the British), Parliament is not supreme; it is the Constitution that is supreme. That said, it does not in the least follow that settling the terms of the anti-corruption institutional mechanism can be left solely to Team Anna or that its Jan Lokpal Bill, which has some impractical and unsound provisions, must be accepted in toto. In quite un-Gandhian fashion, a mood of triumphalism has taken over the current occupants of Ramlila Maidan. Mr. Hazare has stated that he would not budge from the venue until the Jan Lokpal Bill was introduced in Parliament; and Kiran Bedi, a widely admired member of Team Anna, was so carried away by the mood that she proclaimed, perhaps momentarily forgetting the slogan's authoritarian era associations, that “Anna is India and India is Anna.” Democratic, progressive, political India needs to find its own way. It must use this favourable moment to push forward and shape a law that centre-stages the principle of independent, effective, and quick-acting investigation and prosecution of corruption, especially in high places.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editori ... 373667.ece

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Aug 2011 02:28

And what is the objective of such a color revolution? Consolidate the powers of the rulers who rule India by proxy? Who are these people? Doesn't it sound like CT?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Aug 2011 02:50

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 666816.cms

Look at this story. It made me stupid in my own eyes. Twice reading the article, I thought, they were referring to M.K.Gandhi. In India, only M.K.Gandhi, is addressed as Gandhi. Indians typically use first names and not last names. So when they discuss the 'Gandhian' - ie. AH; my mind somehow connected and brought in M.K.Gandhi - after all it was non-violent protests ityadi.

For example, in the following two lines, the first line though talks about 'counter-Anna operation' (which uses Anna's first name and not his last name), suddenly uses 'Sonia Gandhi's last name 'Gandhi' to refer to her. Only after I read the second sentence did I realize they were talking about Sonia. There is one more example.

The counter-Anna operation, replete with flip-flops and poor strategies, has set off murmurs that the Gandhi's absence had reduced it to a rudderless ship. Nothing explains it better than the media wing, which conveys the party line but is appearing a house of babble.

I rule out that it was written for the Western audience or NRIs because of the inconsistency of using first name for Anna Hazzare and last name for Sonia Gandhi. Toilet Paper, truly stands up for its name.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Aug 2011 02:53

Color Revolutions have all been Western sponsored attempts at establishing satraps. this is nothing to be proud of. on the contrary, we need to be extremely weary. situation is ripe for foreign intervention. statements coming from GoUS is an indication that foreign interests might be planning to take advantage of the situation.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 20 Aug 2011 02:54

Anna Hazare might have given the cause a face, but the anti-corruption movement that is now in a rapid phase of expansion across India does not depend on one man or his team. The real force that is shaking the UPA government — which is widely perceived as the most corrupt in the history of independent India — is made up of hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens who are fed up with a system they believe is opaque, corrupt, and driven by greed.

What after all has made Team Anna the force it has become? It is the feeling among ordinary people across the land — a feeling strengthened by intense media coverage — that here is a rare opportunity to put in place a potent mechanism to end high-level corruption . If the UPA does not recognise the public anger against corruption, respect the ideals and values of democracy, and take steps to create a Lokpal that inspires confidence, there will be a political price to pay — perhaps well before the next general election.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editori ... 362951.ece

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Aug 2011 03:01

this is a bad time for all out revolution. there isn't enough grievance or even right direction. imvho, this will die down. GoI will pass some bill or the other and mollify the masses.

meanwhile, very soon there will be an arrest warrant out for Baba Ramdev on some cooked up charges of financial chicanery. apparently, they're preparing the ground for it.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 20 Aug 2011 03:20

devesh wrote:this is a bad time for all out revolution. there isn't enough grievance or even right direction. imvho, this will die down. GoI will pass some bill or the other and mollify the masses.

Revolutions are are three act plays. Act 1 you overthrow the the oppressors and replace them with your reformers. Act 2, Reformers are setup to fail. Act 3 Reformers fail and you get oppressors 2.0,

Witness what is going in Egypt.

My take-away from all of this is the 'middle class' who ever they are in India, are saying : "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore."

The 'Govt' has reacted wrongly/over and has given fuel to grievances.

The vanity of the INC has always been the 'middle class urban types' don't matter. Maybe now we'll find out.

Go Hosni MMS go!

Indian Summer anyone?

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 20 Aug 2011 03:30

I don't know why but Brother Hazare reminds me of Anupam Kher in the movie Arjun. I will reserve my opinion for the moment and I fear that the only winner in this episode will be Raul Vinci

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Aug 2011 03:35

Dipanker wrote:And what is the objective of such a color revolution? Consolidate the powers of the rulers who rule India by proxy? Who are these people? Doesn't it sound like CT?

Crushing the emergence of Dharma n+1.0 would be my guess. Read the critique by Iliah et al. Yes Iliah and co come out against AH but that position can be interpreted as expression of a fear that people power cannot be controlled fully. Also there are worries it seems that AH, BR etc are closer than comfort requires.

Classic analogy is AH + team == kerensky and BR a potential Lenin.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 20 Aug 2011 03:38

Mahendra wrote:I don't know why but Brother Hazare reminds me of Anupam Kher in the movie Arjun. I will reserve my opinion for the moment and I fear that the only winner in this episode will be Raul Vinci

That's Act 3. The Return of the Mainos

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Aug 2011 04:15

Wow so many things to learn in life, so little time. The more one learns the more there is to learn.

Varun Gandhi is planning to introduce a Private Member's Bill. Simply put, in our Parliamentary, under the Westminster System, it is the cabinet (government) that routinely introduces bills that are discussed and passed. Private Member Bills are bills that are introduced by an MP of any party (including the ruling). The last Private Member Bill to pass was in 1970 - it was introduced in 1968.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 20 Aug 2011 05:30

Take DSK (former IMF chief) example. He was accused of rape, disgraced, and forced to resign from IMF chief post because he called for an alternative to the USD. Now, it has turned out, that he did not actually rape the maid. But the damage had been done. It is very unlikely that DSK will ever regain his post, and the drive for a USD alternative has been shelved with something as cheap as a mud slinging campaign.

wow - well at least sarkozy must like your theory

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Aug 2011 06:21

ramana wrote:I think we are seeing an Indian color revolution and dont even know it.

A valid concern, but it does not look like it. The fact that folks like Kancha Illaiah and John Dayal are very much anti-Hazare is a good indicator.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Aug 2011 06:34

fanne wrote:It is right to be skeptical to what AH's version of the bill, it is OK to question his methods. It is definitely right to doubt most (not all) of the people who are supposedly supporting him (Harsh Mander et all). But then this moment is not about AH or the bill, it is about the Janta that a clown prince or uncle scam is taking for granted.
Here is the link to Dhinker's poem - Sighasan khali karo ki janta aati hai (leave the throne as the the masses have come). Enjoy. A telling line is -Janta ki roke Rah Samy me tab kaha, Wah jidhar chahti Kaal udhar hi mudta hai (The time does not have the will to stop the masses, the way the masses goes, history goes with it)

http://www.geeta-kavita.com/hindi_sahitya.asp?id=415

Thanks,
Ravi

Harsh Mander is actually firmly in the anti-Hazare camp. He had written a long article seeing all kinds of evil in the picture of Bharat Mata on Anna's stage.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Aug 2011 06:40

vijayk wrote: Winds of change in BJP a warning for leadership - http://expressbuzz.com/prabhuchawla/win ... 03601.html

SOni'a trick of using NDTV, CNN/IBN, Tehelka, NGOs, Leftists succeeded in making the BJP top leaders a bunch of pussies. They are afraid that Press will start calling them right wing, yindoo nationalists are always afraid to be aggressive. Look at recent Pune police firing. BJP should have killed the unholy alliance of CON party and NCP. Instead, they let it go.

Not Sonia's trick. If looks, walks and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. No need to look for hidden Chankian-ness in the BJP brass either.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Aug 2011 06:53

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Aug 2011 07:16

sanjeevpunj wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 664784.cms
'Anna Hazare's movement is anti-social justice, manuwadi.

Hyderabad-based dalit-bahujan thinker Kancha Ilaiah offers similar views. "The Anna movement is an anti-social justice, manuvadi movement. The Dalits, tribals, OBCs and minorities have nothing to do with it. We oppose it," he says.

abhishek_sharma wrote:From The Urdu Press

Several Urdu papers have displayed circumspection and wariness about Anna Hazare’s movement, and some have sharply articulated their unease.

shravan wrote:Christian leaders denounce anti-corruption agitation
http://www.cathnewsindia.com/2011/08/16 ... agitation/

John Dayal, a lay leader, said that “this dictatorial attitude shows that Hazare has no respect for democratic norms.

Good old divide-and-rule by the Congress.

But there is a deeper issue. If corruption were curtailed, then India would be growing at 12 to 13% per year. If the defense capability increased by a commensurate amount, then India would be a major player globally in a decade. At the same time, there would be empowerment of the Indic civilization. Certain "leaders" or "sole spokesmen" (some of whom have an umbilical link with overseas backers) would feel like orphans in that scenario.

VinayB · Post by **VinayB** » 20 Aug 2011 07:27

amidst the delirium, some facts to bear in mind

1. INC did not rule India for about 54 out of 64 years by being stupid.

2. One family did not control INC for that 64 years by being stupid or having stupid handlers.

3. 'middle class' is not a political entity. Best possible defn. is on some income range. There is no data that middle class has a common political interest or issues that it votes on.

4. we are not araps. Our cousins to the west think they are. We have a multi-party democracy. We dont need to change government using color revolutions.

5. in a democracy, if incumbent is corrupt, venal, even stupid, first thing is voting them out. It is as simple as driving down a slope and wanting to stop - take foot off the accelerator.

6. the argument 'all parties are corrupt' is not stupid, but made with vested interest in keeping INC in power. I.K.Gujral is not equal-equal with 2G.

7. An ombudsman does not need to be judge/police/prosecutor all in one Org to be an ombudsman

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 20 Aug 2011 07:33

Dated but still has relevancy...
http://www.firstpost.com/politics/ramli ... 22424.html

What is interesting, though, is what has happened to the NAM heavies above: Yugoslavia. Does not exist, has been dismembered due to religious violence between Christians and Muslims

•Indonesia. Had a large part of its territory removed by force because of religious issues: Christians claimed discrimination in East Timor and separated

• Egypt. Fed-up citizens deposed the kleptocrats

• And India?

In India, with Swami Ramdev’s movement, popular discontent over kleptocracy boiled over a la Egypt (of course before it was shut down by tear-gassing sleeping people, a la Bahrain). So India is following in the same general path as Egypt. But then it also has religious violence.

One would imagine, therefore, by analogy with other NAM worthies, that either India will lose its territory or its kleptocrats, or perhaps both. Which last perhaps is not such a bad trade-off: “Here, take some land, but take our worst sinners as well."

Unfortunately, nothing so simple is good enough for India. Remember, India choose neither capitalism nor communism, but a Third Way™. Yes, Indian exceptionalism at work. The Third Way (aka ‘hybrid economy’) combines all the vices of both capitalism and communism, and none of the virtues of either. This was dreamt up by India’s clever economists, who thereby ensured that 200 million starving Indians in 1947 became 800 million undernourished Indians in 2011!

Similarly, I fear that India’s equally wise social scientists have dreamt up a political alternative path for India: it will be dismembered, and it will get to keep the kleptocrats! Nothing but the worst of all possible worlds for India! The kleptocrats have convinced the urban idiottarati that even asking questions about loot is a crime. So they will stay.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Aug 2011 07:33

VinayB wrote: 4. ... We have a multi-party democracy. ...

5. in a democracy, if incumbent is corrupt, venal, even stupid, first thing is voting them out. It is as simple as driving down a slope and wanting to stop - take foot off the accelerator.

This is where you go wrong. You can't call yourself a democracy without a transparent and verifiable voting system.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 20 Aug 2011 07:46

abhischekcc wrote: I mean, if Anna really has so much popular support why does he and his core team members stand for elections? Or do they have so much contempt for public opinion that they think they do not endorsement from the people. SMS polls are not a valid democratic instrument you know

Because the electoral system in this country is broken. If you are not a criminal or a political family member of someone who is not in cahoots with criminals and politicians, you have very little chance of winning an election. The organizational and ground level setup of the election system combined with the complete ineffectiveness of EC simply does not allow it. The basic electoral playing field is broken.

Although looking at Anna's style, he would probably demand reform of electoral system before he fields any candidates and someday I hope he does work on reforming the electoral system - although the list of issues related to bad governance in this country is very very long. There is no lack of issues there including the electoral process.

Once he is done with LokPal, I do hope Anna picks up another (any) issue of bad governance and works towards fixing that.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Aug 2011 08:02

'We wanted to see the man who took on the govt'

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110819.htm

Anti corruption crusader Anna Hazare surprised everybody at the Ramlila Grounds when he landed at the place at 2 pm even while a couple of India Against Corruption speakers kept telling his followers that he would be at Rajghat at 2 pm. Prasanna Zore reports.As soon as he climbed the dais, he addressed his supporters with Bharat Mata ki Jai, Vande Mataram and Inquilab Zindabad.He then addressed the gathering, telling them how his movement and fast that began on August 16 has passed off peacefully. He congratulated the gathering for their peaceful conduct that has proved his detractors who claimed that his movement might turn violent and arrested him on August 16.Interestingly, he told the assembly that he has been feeling weak, but then made a spirited speech. "India's second freedom struggle begun on August 16," he said to a thunderous applause from more than 30,000 people who had assembled at the grounds at 2.20 pm.

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/2764/19freedom03.jpg
Sujata Mehra and Surabhi Sapru, both in their mid-60s were part of the crowd that cheered Hazare. They had come from Vasant Vihar since noon to see their 'hero Anna'."We had seen him only on TV. We wanted to see the man in flesh who made the might of the government supplicate before him," said Sujata. She has suffered at the hands of corrupt babus of the Municipal Corporation of Delhi many a times.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 20 Aug 2011 08:13

Mahendra wrote: I will reserve my opinion for the moment and I fear that the only winner in this episode will be Raul Vinci

+10
There are many levels of "laws of unintended consequences" in this saga.

http://www.samachar.com/The-real-foreig ... hbdei.html

I wonder if those who see a foreign influence on Anna Hazare's movement realize how close they are to the truth. As I argue below, global trends now unfolding have a major influence on our social and political realities. Not of course in terms of the rather silly charges of conspiracy and the hidden hand but in a deeper more structural manner. Hazare's movement, aided and abetted unwittingly{could be by design too...} by the ruling establishment, has pushed all other burning issues to the background and now threatens to wipe out the monsoon session of the Parliament. This is indeed a great pity as we were earnestly hoping that the session would be used for pushing forward the slew of important legislations which have been hanging since long.

In related news...

I don't know who Anna Hazare is but I feel that his fight for freedom from corruption is right. There has been a great response from the masses and I feel that it is my moral responsibility to fight for what is right,” said Mr Joe Stephen, a tourist from Hungary who had an Indian flag painted on his cheek.
“We were sight-seeing near Victoria Terminus and saw a huge crowd approaching with placards. A passer-by told us it was an anti-corruption rally so we joined in,” pipes in Ms Jamie Stewarts, a student from New York who has come to Mumbai for her course on monumental tourism.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 20 Aug 2011 08:22

Maintaining corruption status-quo by avoiding meaningful reform has support across all political parties.

The elected had 60+ years to effect transformation. Do only the unelected people of India shoulder the moral and ethical responsibility of the country's well being with the elected reps having a free reign?

Therefore, for a common person, there simply exists no institutionalised mechanism to effect transformation.How does one effect any substantive reform in such a broken self serving political landscape?

To take an example from the US, Martin Luther King had to take to the streets, declined bail and choose to stay in jail. In the face of a non responsive and recalcitrant state bent on maintaining the status-quo it was the only way he could have been effective.

His efforts including the Washington March was instrumental to gain equal civil and voting rights to blacks. If he had stood for election what chance did he stand of winning when the whole system was loaded against the blacks? Same parallels with AH and the Lokpal.

BD had summed it up accurately as also middle class revenge.This is a first. The 3TAC (that's what I call the middle class) crowd is sending a message that it can no longer be ignored. Looks like the opiate of malls, jeans, fake accents with fake foreign food, new sim card a week-new touch phone every 12 months and a weekly movie in a multiplex with popcorn is not enough anymore. Bravo!

The 3TAC class are the new wretches. They work hard, fund development of infrastructure and social services because they pay their taxes (Tax deduction at source remember) and then are mercilessly screwed by the police, bureaucracy and judiciary who want a share of the 3TAC's success without having to work for it. Is this not an accurate definition of a parasite?

I have never found a non tax payer complaining about infrastructure, governance and services. They are getting all of whatever exists and functions today for free largely because of the 3TAC class. What goes of their father if their car axle breaks in a pothole? Civil services will recover it from the 3TAC crowd the next day-ruthlessly,shamelessly and without any remorse. Non tax payers will indulge in more malpractices in collusion with the NBJP to fund the broken axle replacement.

While having no precedent, AH through the Lokpal, is bringing representative oversight into a severely broken system. It's probably not perfect and may not achieve much or may become a shining example for other democracies which face similar challenges as ours.

Who ever said that "by the people, for the people and of the people" represents the ultimate evolution and definition. Maybe, it can further evolve to also being "participatory oversight by the people". Elections are "reviewed by the people".

At the very least, the elected cabal's have to firmly get the message that the party is over and the club is shut. Nothing more to see here.

What is the other solution? Wait for a Lee Kwuan to emerge in India? That's a throw of the dice. The future of the country is too important to be left to a random event happening.

In addition to the many measures already listed, I would throw the following into the hat:

* Annual Government revaluation of all property to bring in line with real market values. Currently, property is a huge incentive and conduit for black money.
* Campaign funding reform

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 20 Aug 2011 08:49

ramana wrote:rajanb,
Early on INC spokespersons claimed all is well and she is abroad. Later it was leaked she is in New York on east coast of US. Even doc's name was mentioned.
Is her location correct? Or is that also a red herring?

Well, I never inquired about her location.

*sigh* there are many a red herring in politics.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 20 Aug 2011 08:55

rahulm wrote: What is the other solution? Wait for a Lee Kwuan to emerge in India? That's a throw of the dice. The future of the country is too important to be left to a random event happening.

In a democracy (even a mild one at that), whenever a political vacuum exists people will create a new leader. Commonwealth fiasco and 2G pissed off a large number of people in the country, made them question the general loot of the country at the hands of those in power, and made them question corruption and bad governance in their own lives. Since, Congress, BJP, and other political parties are sources of corruption problem, but not solutions to the problem, they could not provide a legitimate representation to this new found anti-corruption anger among the people. Hence, a political vacuum was created.

Political vacuums can be potentially very dangerous if left unfilled (as it usually happens in non-democratic countries where the rulers don't allow any other leader to step up) because an unfilled political vacuum means a large number of people are angry and frustrated and don't see any option. This is a volcano waiting to erupt.

Ramdev initially filled this political vacuum, but due to combination of personal factors and sustained government attacks he could not sustain. That's when Anna stepped up and filled the vacuum. Everything that is going on now indicates that Anna is able to fill the anti-corruption political vacuum to channelize and represent peoples anger.

Now the issue is what happens next. Congress is running scared and after attacking Anna they are now branding him as a "hero". The reason is simple, Anna is a known entity that they can deal with and Anna is successfully channelizing peoples anger so far. If Congress dislodges Anna at this point, rest assured without any doubt a new leader (perhaps more aggressive and with uncertain leadership agenda) will step up to fill the anti-corruption political vacuum.

Moral of the story: the government should deal and negotiate with Anna and attempt to satisfy the public anger against bad governance (this is not just about corruption, its about bad governance as a whole), otherwise rest assured a more aggressive leader with unknown leadership agenda is waiting in the wings to be crowned. Anna's agenda at this point is familiar and known to the government and Anna seems like a nice guy to work with.

Let this issue remain unaddressed and unrepresented and the day where a militant leader rises among mainstream Indian population is not going to be far off.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Aug 2011 08:56

Don't get why the churches are so against Anna Hazare. The message has filtered down to the lambs and christians in social media are actively criticizing him

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 20 Aug 2011 09:01

SwamyG wrote:
While I do not have answers to the questions, at least three things India could do at national level are:
1) Reduce a government's term to 3 years.
2) Restrict a PM term limit to 1 or 1000 days maximum per life. Once an individual has been a PM for 1000 days, she or he can never again be a PM.
3) Reduce term limits of MPs to 2.

We could have something similar at the State level too.

+1 SwamyG

How about staggering the parlimentary elections? i.e. Have elections for 20% of the constituencies every year? So the 5 year term remains but every year people get a chance to view the performance and then vote accordingly for the 1/5 of parl and state legis coming up for election.

Will ensure that the elected "representatives" will stick to representing rather than Mastergiri!

a) Will reward the performing party every year
b) If people see a logjam in parl due to an opposition which opposes just for the sake of power then people can say "Oye! Do it for the country, not for the power!".
c) same goes for corruption, non-performance et al.

Cheers

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Aug 2011 09:03

ramana wrote:I think we are seeing an Indian color revolution and dont even know it. Thats what eh ortuside support ofr AH is. I wouldn't be surprised to see Anna Hazare nominated for Nobel Peace Prize for next year. What INC hasn't realised is that AH is bringing the apathetic crowds to the street who werent even stirred by the constant terror attacks. They were so much drunk with power they didn't know when the ground moved.

I bet the non-Congress UPA parties are working behind scenes to create a no confidence motion to replace the UPA.

This is a change in the generation social group which is happening over 5 - 10 years

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 20 Aug 2011 09:05

praksam wrote:From the same twitter:

Henry_Kissinger Henry Kissinger
This week's addition to my #EnemiesList: Indian corruption "activist" Anna Hazare. My response to his childish threats: let him eat cake.

Coming from one of US' leading foreign policy dimwits. That is a scream!

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 20 Aug 2011 09:09

Further, AH's Lokpal is nothing but an attempt at introducing a direct democracy element where representative democracy is not working - a blended model in response to our special environment and challenges. Interesting framework.

There are successful working precedents to direct democracy (Switzerland). In a large, diverse and populous country like ours, a Lokpal like structure provides a framework. There may be other possibilities.

Direct democracy permits dismissal of officials - which is what RMji's Right to Recall was.

There are precedents to limited direct democracy structures even in Representative democracies so its not a fanciful idea.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Aug 2011 09:10

^^^ That is a fake account. Meant to be a parody. The real issue is the interest all western factions are showing in this.
I hope all their models go wrong

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Aug 2011 09:13

Jarita wrote:Don't get why the churches are so against Anna Hazare. The message has filtered down to the lambs and christians in social media are actively criticizing him

Why is it surprising. Most Church denominations are primarily political organizations controlled by foreign elites. Arcbishop Concessao was originally a part of IAC, but he is now likely to stick to the party line.

The solution is to educate the "lambs" about the true nature of their leaders and organizations.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Aug 2011 09:22

Twitter:
gchikermane Gautam Chikermane
by acorn
Those of you wanting to engage with Lokpal bill, pls send thought-through suggestions to Parl Committee at [email protected] by Sep 4.