The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Aug 2011 05:37

partha wrote:What if some people now start fast unto death demanding govt version of lok pal bill be passed or demanding no lok pal bill be passed?

It depends on who that "some people" are. A single aam admi or a few people without any backing can to zilch. For such movements to catch on, backing is needed. There have been so many people against corruption fighting at different levels. Many have been killed, aam junta were angry and made some effort to question the system handlers. Only small traction made.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Aug 2011 05:46

Power of Intention is so powerful!.. it would permeate all defences and fortresses.. and if rightly used, we can achieve anything. To be influencing on peoples mind, it has to be simple and clear communication and clean background image, where the propagator is respected and revered, and is with near zero flawed.

Simple steps is all that takes to everyone think in the right direction.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Aug 2011 06:04

Hari Seldon wrote: Making cute excuses or indirect justifications for the bloodthirsty and totalitarian Maobadi cult in any form from any platform is a no-no with me. Period. Sure, we can always find instances, perhaps even a pattern of events wherein the arms of the state have been wilfully apathetic or even actively parasitic w.r.t. the livelihoods, labors and lands of tribal citizenry in resource-rich lands. I'm not here to defend or condone such wickedness. However, to extrapolate that to wink-wink justify targetted, remorseless and ruthless maobadi cruelty on our hapless tribal populace is way beyond the pale. A case exists for studying coldly and rationally the source of maobadi support and the ecosystem that sustains them and then how best to drain the swamp such that ordinary tribal people's lives are least disrupted.

The left-lib lobby, woolly headed at best, anti-Indic always and unwilling/unable to take responsibility for the consequences of their policy prescriptions will ruin India. That's my 2-bit. Am open to changing opinion based on new data coming in but new opinions can only do so much. Have a nice day, all.

See, when a person has AIDS, his immune system is compromised and he is attacked by all kinds of opportunistic infestations.

Corruption is the AIDS.

Maoists and creatures like John Dayal are the opportunistic maggots.

Kejriwal put the Maoist maggots in the context of the AIDS we suffer from. That is not the same as supporting them.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Aug 2011 06:41

RamaY wrote:If media reports were to be believed, there are minor differences of opinions between AH and his coterie. So we are going to see a MKG/JLN moment soon, where as JLN makes compromises and AH has to accept them to save his and his team's H&D.

Differences will exist. But you must have seen the Media report on CNN-IBN. There was some Javed or someone who openly criticizes the bill and even says that this is a threat to parliament argument that's put forward by the Congress party. This arguments gets trashed but still they try to stick to the stupid arguments. One can say that an all out attempt has been made by the congress against the team and the movement, even in the Media too. CNN-IBN is very pro-congress, but since the public support is there for Anna, they are trying their best to look neutral, but sometimes the color suddenly changes to Congress vadis.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Aug 2011 06:46

One more aspect of the bill is that the people will have a bigger say in the matters. Law will start to act and the Administrative machinery will start to function. Politicos will not be able to act like thugs and criminals and corrupt will be behind bars. This movement will in a way kill Maoism as well. Because, Maoists need poverty, corruption, anger against administration (for foot soldiers) to succeed. If the cause can be removed by democratic process, then the need for guns and red leaders vanishes. In a way this Anti-corruption bill is the magic wand that will eliminate Maoist terrorism. people can remain as peaceful Gandhians.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Aug 2011 06:53

Computerization of gov workflow can bring down many loop holes, if done correct and per laws. It is should be made as a corrective feedback system.

Now the next budget would also include increased funding for building larger jail system. Till the big large minds understand lok pal, and we have graduated to a well set civil society with least or zero corruption.

I am fearing, our jails will be filled now, or either provide them bail on huge sum of money.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Aug 2011 07:20

10 Most Corrupt Indian Politicians

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 21 Aug 2011 08:09

CRamS wrote:
Muppalla wrote: I hate to say this but knowing or unknowingly/accidentally or deliberately this entier Anna movement is an anti-national movement to balkanize India. Period. I do not care anymore if someone call my logic as Paki logic. I say again go to hell. This entire thing if successful we won't see India. Period.
Boss, I ask you sincerely, please explain why you say this. Reason being that I have been following this sporadically due to some pressing professional commitments and I may have missed the nuances. Yes, I do agree vigilanti approach to corruption is not the answer, and yet I am not sure MMS has what it takes to clean up the mess. But you seem to associate a national security angle to what Anna is doing. Please elucidate.

Here are the reasons expalined by this article though mostly the technical stuff related to Lokpal Vs no Lokpal. I totally agree. Lokpal and Lokayukta stuff are useless IMVHO.

India needs reforms, not a super babu

Everybody knows that the route to a corruption-free India lies through radical reforms that will ensure minimum government, maximum governance. But that’s a tedious process which will also mark the end of entitlements. So, what we are being asked to adopt instead is a second version of the hugely wasteful NREGA which has bred further corruption and thievery at all levels of our administration. The new job-generating scheme shall be called JLPEGA — it will create sufficient employment to keep retired babus, busybodies and self-appointed monitors of rectitude in clover at the taxpayers’ expense. Sadly, our political class, denuded of credibility, has so compromised itself that it lacks the guts to take on those who claim to represent all of India but have nothing to show, apart from a well-choreographed made-for-television protest, to substantiate that claim.

Here are my views and previous posts on this thread.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1114082

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1117088

Also read the following in conjunction with the above posts

Congress perceived as synonymous with corruption, yet retains support of traditional base

Regarding your question about why it is anti-national:

It has become too easy these days for any anti-national to cheat the country by exploiting the mood and anger of the middle classes. The educated middle classes have become almost illiterate middle classes and are punch bags of the exploiters. These are the same classes who may say (1) Let us transfer Tawang to China so that there will be peace and the Oracle jobs are not lost (2) Same classes who adore Narayana Murthy when he lobbied no-war with Pak to save businesses during Op Parakram (3) Now join any tom-dick-harry to do some god-damn-so called Second India's Independence movement. (4) Yeah it is also the same crowd that may have opposed Tiranga yatra to Srinagar to not disrupt peace.

This is mostly an image concious crowd. I will bet these movements would not have been successful if the corruption is only 2G scam. For them the CWG scam is the catalyst because it is insluting to them because it has an image issue with respect to rest of the world. (sorry for being insensitive)

The entire team is full of Maoists and Naxal agenda's front end. There were some proxies to ISI too. These several NGOs are anti-development and anti-India as a nation types. There are few good in the midst. I just cannot imagine why Anna has relied upon such a crowd. Is he so bankurpt regarding chosing his team? Why Bhushans? Why Manders? Why Medha Patkars? Why Aruna Roys?

The government is so badly discredited and it is not that difficult to trigger color revoulutions and popularity of Anna's movement is a proof of that. Hence I say if this movement is successful in either (1) Getting its version of Lokpal passed or (2) If it turns into a political outfit/supporting role to a political party then anti-nationals have definitely taken a lead on the nation.

On the same line here is my extreme exaggerated post:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1148751

However the possibilites of such a trial-and-error by the enemy is real with a blind spot based lane changers in the middle classes of India.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2011 08:11

are you sure harsh mander is part of team anna? last I checked he was a full member of the NAC!

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Aug 2011 08:15

SaiK wrote:Computerization of gov workflow can bring down many loop holes, if done correct and per laws. It is should be made as a corrective feedback system..

But still money is being taken and bribes are expected. How?
To get a printout
Excuse No.1) The computer is not working or the power is not there, network is down. you come tomorrow.
Pay the money and the computer will start working and the printout will be ready.
Else you have to say, I'm not in any hurry,I can wait and sit there reading some newspaper. Then after five minutes frustrated, he/she will give you printout or may be you'll wait for it for ever.
Case 2) Even when some tax payments are made, they will be screaming like, you dont give me anything. I have been put in this place and no one ever bothers to give me anything. Others are all at so and so position making money, my karma....
And you'll be left wondering whether you're at some dacoits place or something.
If a police officer can ask bribe from a judge's wife, think about what others can do.
High time these are all curbed. Lok pal is a must. You cannot hope and wish to see the politicians doing their duty and the top down approach functioning. If there are good leaders, it will to a certain extend. But as a whole, what has not happened for more than 60 yrs will not happen. So Lokpal is a must. There is no other hope.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 21 Aug 2011 08:18

Here are the Nitin Pai's tweets and his probably endgames.

Endgame 1: Some kind of accommodation between the UPA's house Left & Anna Hazare, leading to compromise bill, tabled in parliament.
Endgame 2: Annawalas stick to their guns. Manmohan Singh calls mid-term polls to take the issue to the electorate.
Endgame 3: Rahul Gandhi accepts Anna Hazare's bill by going to Ramlila Mdn and seeking his blessings. Kodak moment.
Endgame 1 - unlikely because it will be seen as a climbdown...plus vested interests of the crony society militate against it.
Endgame 2: Unlikely, because none of the political parties might want elections just yet. Political gyanis like @offstumped know better
Endgame 3: Masterstroke for Congress. Anna will bless Rahul. BJP can't oppose it without huge political cost.

In any case, Congress can 'capture' any institution, as it as done in the past. A 20K strong Lok Pal can be naveenchawlised slowly, surely
So, I won't be surprised at all if Congress accepts the Anna bill, wreaks havoc on the republican fabric & turns it to political advantage
And all the BJP's binary-logic supporters will find themselves looking stupid for believing that Anna & Co agitation benefits BJP.
Whichever way this goes, the Left has struck back. Anyone who thinks handing a victory to a Leftist idea will be the end of it is delusional
The optimistic believe that the awakened Indian will be more vigilant in the future. This is the only hope.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Aug 2011 08:25

Muppalla wrote: Why Aruna Roys?

There will be no super babus, Even the super babus are accountable. That's what's proposed. The judiciary can remove them as well. But today there is no accountability for the politicians. People has to wait for five years even to remove them and then again the next cycle of corruption continues, Has been going for such a long time. This loot has to end.
Aruna, roy is against Anna
Anna Hazare ill advised: NAC member Aruna Roy
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/anna-hazare- ... 264-3.html
Medha, Ramdev, Ravi Shankar etc are coming in support of the movement. That never means their views are being heard. it's only lokpal. But these people need to be kept away from making it political other than for lokpal.
Also corruption is Anti-India.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Aug 2011 08:25

Cong foul play to smear Anna
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/185 ... -anna.html

The Congress, which is under fire for the mishandling of the issue of anti-corruption stir, seems to have played a quick trick on an RTI application concerning Gandhian Anna Hazare and highlighted half-baked information to paint him in poor light.

The trick seemed to have recoiled on the ruling party as an RTI response revealed that Hazare, who was not only “honourably discharged” from the Indian Army as a sepoy after completing his 20 years of service in 1983, but also had won five medals of honour.
Right to Information (RTI ) applicant Subhash Chandra Agrawal has complained to the Indian Army as to how his application seeking information on Anna’s tenure was passed unauthorisedly to Congress spokesman Manish Tewari, who had earlier described Hazare as a person “neck-deep in corruption.”

“I was shocked that the CPIO's said letter dated May 2 to Hazare for seeking his objections on application was referred by the spokesperson of the ruling party at the Union government in a press conference telecast by TV channels to defame Hazare,” Agrawal said, and demanded a probe into the leak of information.

According to the Sena Seva Corp (Abhilekh Dakshin), ASC (South) Bangalore, ex-sepoy Kisan Hazare was enrolled with the Indian Army on April 14, 1963. He joined the service as a recruit and was attested as soldier on November 16, 1963 after successful completion of training at Aurangabad.

“Hazare was holding the rank of sepoy at the time of leaving the service. He was enrolled with terms of engagement of 10 years of colour service and 10 years of reserve service,” the Army said.

The replies have come on August 3 on the application filed under the RTI Act on April 13. To a specific query, the Army said that he had successfully completed his service.
“Yes, he was honourably discharged from Indian Army on successful completion of service. As per records held with this office, he had never deserted the Indian Army,” it said.

Hazare had been felicitated with Sanya Seva medal, Sangram medal, 25 Independent anniversary medal, besides two others, the Army said.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 21 Aug 2011 08:26

http://www.lensonnews.com/lensonarticle ... rahul.html
Poll finds people want leadership change; Rahul Gandhi preferred over Manmohan, Modi over Rahul

is this true? How come this poll never came out?

The Lens poll also quizzed voters as to who between Manmohan Singh and Rahul Gandhi wouldmake a better prime minister. Interestingly, a higher proportion of voters (45%) think that Rahul Gandhi would make a better PM than Manmohan Singh (34%).

Modi preferred over Rahul

Voters were asked as to who between Rahul Gandhi and Narendra Modi would make a better prime minister. Though not the declared official candidates of the rival national parties, the two are widely considered to be leading contenders for the office of the prime minister.

Significantly, a majority of respondents interviewed all over the country (52%) chose Narendra Modi as the preferred PM candidate over Rahul Gandhi trailing at 40%.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 21 Aug 2011 08:32

Singha wrote:are you sure harsh mander is part of team anna? last I checked he was a full member of the NAC!

You are right he is not. While searching, I found the following:

Why I Didn’t Join Anna Hazare

Harsh Mandar in the Hindustan Times:

And yet why could I not actively join the demonstration at Jantar Mantar? First, the symbols and allies that the campaign chose disturbed me: the stage was decorated with a picture of Bharat Mata, almost identical to that propagated by the right-wing RSS. Baba Ramdev and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the two 'god-men' who dominated the campaign and whose followers contributed the largest numbers at the protest, endorse many Hindutva causes including the construction of a Ram Temple. RSS leaders like Ram Madhav were welcomed on to the stage. My fears were further confirmed when Anna Hazare declared that Narendra Modi was a 'model' chief minister. It's difficult to comprehend how a campaign that claims to be Gandhian can extol a government responsible for the slaughter of its religious minorities. Is the condoning of violent retribution against communities, the complicity in slaughter of the official machinery, the systematic subversion of the criminal justice system to protect those guilty of the massacre, or extra-judicial killings not signs of corruption?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 21 Aug 2011 08:38

This thing has gone too far. Anna is being misled. Now he says roll back reforms . Make farmer friendly and labour friendly bills.(as it the present ones our unfriendly) SEZ's suck blood out of people . Industrialists suck blood out of labourers (count tatula , count L&t von drakul

)
bla bla bla yada yada......

This kejriwal chap (shame on the fact that he once polluted IIT's) has even brought it "Deletes" and "MOOIST" issues into this.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Aug 2011 08:38

I do feel that finally the Indian nation has awaken. Earlier it was like no one can say anything and the elected representatives misused their power for their own benefits. Their responsibilities were forgotten and they appeared before the people once in five years. They acted more like feudal lords ruling their fiefdoms. The politicos need to be shown their place as servants of the people.
In Nat Geo there is a program on dogs by Cesar Milan.
He makes the dogs to behave properly and show its place. Similarly this is the time to show the politicians their place in Indian democracy and make them realize that it's the people who are above them and not vice verse and continue it for ever.
Like showing the dog, who is the master, people are now protesting in front of MP's houses and even blocking this cars with black flags in their hands to make them submissive.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 21 Aug 2011 08:40

You are right he is not. While searching, I found the following:

Hope the uncivil society faces a civil war after this .

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 21 Aug 2011 08:43

uddu wrote: There will be no super babus, Even the super babus are accountable. That's what's proposed. The judiciary can remove them as well. But today there is no accountability for the politicians. People has to wait for five years even to remove them and then again the next cycle of corruption continues, Has been going for such a long time. This loot has to end.

So Judiciary is supreme and honest. We just need to beleive them. Why not recall of lokayukta by the people if people are supreme in democracy?

IMO, this is like a sweet jobs for all the money swindling Judges to have plum jobs post-retirement.

Let me tell you how the retired judge job is these days. I know a guy who retired as Judge for District Sessions court. He made good amount of money from judgements. Now he is appointed for a honorary post as head of Consumer protection court. By the way this a honorary post so he should not get any money other than his costs. However, he is actually earning more. Sorry it is real loot. The modus operandi is far simple now as he does not need to write a judgement to earn. He just goes to a fridge selling shop or a Led TV selling shop. He tells that he is getting a lot of consumer complaints and he can take action. Overnight he gets new fridges, LED TVs and also some jewelry, air tickets etc.

I see such characters all over as Lokayuktas.

What we need is a bare minimum government and the one that is efficient to reduce corruption. Regarding political ones, do proper electoral reforms so that a person who is more inclusive than a divisive one wins.

All these proposals of new posts and new super-cops is just hot air.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Aug 2011 08:47

Guys, one thing i would like to point out is that, today it's the good people who has no voice and they find opportunity with Anna's movement to raise their voice for a better India. Everyone else had a voice, Including the Maoists and other terror outfits and the common man was cornered. He has no voice at all. Now Lok pal is a thing that unites everyone. But that never means that there will be no further movements by Anna, but it all depends on what's being talked and discussed. There can be further movement by other people. Openness is really good for India, especially it will help to eliminate the negatives in the society. Internet and communication is the one thing that liberated India from leftist thoughts, treachery and lies. Today we know the truth and openly challenge left ideas and the right wing ideas of the congress party. So it's this openness that's the strength. Weak ideologies and ideas can easily be countered and exposed in an open system. So let there be openness. Nothing to be worried about it. It's all good for India. That's the real India and that must be the real India.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Aug 2011 08:54

Muppalla wrote: So Judiciary is supreme and honest. We just need to beleive them. Why not recall of lokayukta by the people if people are supreme in democracy?
IMO, this is like a sweet jobs for all the money swindling Judges to have plum jobs post-retirement.

Judiciary will also be under close watch and corrupt will be thrown out. I dont know the rules and regulations of it, But can tell you that each and everyone watching the other from being corrupt is a good thing to do.
Also that's ideal to have the people to have a say in any matter. Like voting, Is there any mechanism that you can suggest that's simple. that's fool proof so that people can vote on each and every matter. We can have it and that's the real democracy. Hope sometimes in the future, we'll get there.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 21 Aug 2011 08:58

Corruption ends when people have pride in their society and country. A sense of building bigger better things. Minimize the Loot&Scoot attitude. Kinda like Scandinavia or Japan.

Massive changes are atomizing people and alienating them from society. India is 60% under 30 years of age. Need to do better than have a 75 year old unfocused reformer.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 21 Aug 2011 09:00

Judiciary will also be under close watch and corrupt will be thrown out. I dont know the rules and regulations of it, But can tell you that each and everyone watching the other from being corrupt is a good thing to do.
Also that's ideal to have the people to have a say in any matter. Like voting, Is there any mechanism that you can suggest that's simple. that's fool proof so that people can vote on each and every matter. We can have it and that's the real democracy. Hope sometimes in the future, we'll get there.

Don't you get it biraather? Judiciary will be watched over by corrupt retired judges now in the lokpal . I agree with you that this is awakening of the true India. A true India filled with ignorant people , who don't know what they want , who jump into bandwagons without understanding consequence etc. First thing in a fight against corruption is understanding the fact that it cannot be completely eliminated .

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Aug 2011 09:08

Theo_Fidel wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:What he said was, Naxalism came because of corruption. If development was done without corruption, why would people become naxals.
Thats really weak. So in the 60's to 80's when we had no development there should have been no naxalites right. Naxalites are political thugs trying to get money and power. Development has nothing to do with it.

I don't want to digress on this. I have put that Naxalism comment in prespective. Anna and team had no intention fanning Naxalism.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Aug 2011 09:14

Theo_Fidel wrote:Corruption ends when people have pride in their society and country. A sense of building bigger better things. Minimize the Loot&Scoot attitude. Kinda like Scandinavia or Japan.

Massive changes are atomizing people and alienating them from society. India is 60% under 30 years of age. Need to do better than have a 75 year old unfocused reformer.

And one who seems to be led by the nose by some "civil society" whose antecedents and backers are iffy

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Aug 2011 09:23

Muppalla wrote:
uddu wrote: There will be no super babus, Even the super babus are accountable. That's what's proposed. The judiciary can remove them as well. But today there is no accountability for the politicians. People has to wait for five years even to remove them and then again the next cycle of corruption continues, Has been going for such a long time. This loot has to end.
So Judiciary is supreme and honest. We just need to beleive them. Why not recall of lokayukta by the people if people are supreme in democracy?

IMO, this is like a sweet jobs for all the money swindling Judges to have plum jobs post-retirement.

Let me tell you how the retired judge job is these days. I know a guy who retired as Judge for District Sessions court. He made good amount of money from judgements. Now he is appointed for a honorary post as head of Consumer protection court. By the way this a honorary post so he should not get any money other than his costs. However, he is actually earning more. Sorry it is real loot. The modus operandi is far simple now as he does not need to write a judgement to earn. He just goes to a fridge selling shop or a Led TV selling shop. He tells that he is getting a lot of consumer complaints and he can take action. Overnight he gets new fridges, LED TVs and also some jewelry, air tickets etc.

I see such characters all over as Lokayuktas.

What we need is a bare minimum government and the one that is efficient to reduce corruption. Regarding political ones, do proper electoral reforms so that a person who is more inclusive than a divisive one wins.

All these proposals of new posts and new super-cops is just hot air.

OK, but so far it was only the Aam Admi who was suffering from arbitrariness. Lokpal is for putting fear of god into Babus. Why are you so upset if the Babus will have Takleef?

Anyway, as per JL Bill, LokPal can only investigate and bring it before a judge, he has no other powers. Further all details of the investigation has to be made public. There is unprecedented transparency in selection of Lokpal members. IMHO, we could do better with Right to Recall and elected Lokpals, but still, there are several checks and balances against arbitrariness in the present proposal.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Aug 2011 09:31

Amazing how many people get all upset by any Takleef to govt Babus, Netas and Judges.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Aug 2011 09:31

India's Corruption Problem: Anna Hazare and India's Democracy
Sumit Ganguly

Late August is not customarily a time when India's aggrieved and long-suffering citizens gather in New Delhi's public parks to express their disenchantment with the government in office. The near incessant monsoon rains, the fetid humidity, and the enervating heat combine to dampen any desire to participate in mass protests. Yet the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government of Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is now bracing for a 15-day protest, including a fast, in the heart of the nation's capital.

At the center of this outpouring of popular sentiment are certain features of an anticorruption bill currently under discussion in the Indian parliament. The protesters and their principal leader, Kisan Baburao Hazare, an ascetic former army officer popularly known as Anna ("elder brother" in Hindi) Hazare, insist that the government's version of the bill is toothless. More specifically, they argue that any legislation must include both the office of the prime minister and the judiciary in its purview. As it is written now, the bill limits itself to civil servants and politicians and places a seven-year limit on investigations.

However, the government and its supporters -- including Nandan Nilkani, a well-regarded entrepreneur who is now head of the government's technology committee -- are equally adamant that they will not change the bill. According to them, the proposed legislation makes a good-faith effort. Moreover, they argue that Hazare and the protesters are resorting to tactics bordering on blackmail and undermining the supremacy of India's parliament, the country's elected deliberative body.

The merits of these particular questions aside, Hazare has caught the attention of Indians across the country by seizing upon well-worn Gandhian tactics of nonviolent civil disobedience and threats of fasts. He has, quite deftly, referred to his campaign as a quest for India's "second revolution," thereby invoking memories of the country's freedom from the yoke of British colonial rule.

Until recently, Hazare was a relatively obscure social activist known mostly in his native state of Maharashtra, where he ran a model village and sought to reform recalcitrant youngsters with rather harsh, authoritarian methods. However, once he brought his agitation to New Delhi in June and then negotiations between him and key government representatives broke down in August, the government chose to incarcerate him in the city's notorious Tihar jail -- where a host of prominent politicians and senior bureaucrats were awaiting trial for corruption-related offenses -- an abrupt, nationwide movement erupted. In a country with widespread reverence for the aged, the sight of a 74-year-old man being hauled off to jail to serve time with a number of scandal-ridden politicians was too much to countenance. The government's singularly ham-handed tactic backfired in the worst imaginable fashion: widespread public protests ensued.

Further increasing his public appeal, Hazare refused to move out of the prison even after the government offered to set him free. Instead, he made his own release conditional on the government's willingness to allow him to hold a public fast on the grounds of a park in New Delhi to demonstrate the public's growing anger. Despite its reservations, the government worked out a compromise and granted him leave to hold the fast on August 18.

Corruption is hardly a new element in Indian politics. Graft has long wracked India's public life and society, running the gamut from small-scale bribes to the police in exchange for dispensing with traffic tickets to massive payoffs to politicians and political parties to acquire complex weapons systems. The country's citizens have frequently complained about this malaise but have rarely, if ever, resorted to organized public protest to register their frustration and anger about this pervasive phenomenon. On the whole, they have stoically accepted its existence as part of India's social and political landscape.

The explanation for the sudden surge in public anger over and impatience with corruption is twofold. At one level, India's fitful embrace of market-oriented policies beginning in the early 1990s has ended some forms of mid-level corruption. For example, the eclipse of what the noted Indian economist Raj Krishna sardonically called the "license-permit-quota raj" -- the labyrinthine set of regulations of industrial licensing, permit requirements, and production quotas -- has actually reduced opportunities for bureaucratic graft and corruption. Businessmen and industrialists no longer have to bribe bureaucrats at state and national levels to obtain most such clearances.

That said, corruption has moved into other spheres. Three recent cases are illustrative. The first involved the offering of 2G spectrum rights to a number of unexceptional mobile-phone firms at undervalued prices. According to the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India, the scandal cost the exchequer $39 billion. The second involved the sale of some prime, government-owned land in Mumbai to high-ranking retired military officers, even though the land was ostensibly intended for the widows of officers who had lost their lives in the fourth Indo-Pakistani conflict of 1999. The third episode dealt with the 19th Commonwealth Games held in New Delhi last October. Once again, another CAG report has confirmed fears and allegations of widespread fraud, mismanagement, and the blatant padding of contracts. A number of high officials have been indicted and are now in custody.

The economic costs of all three of these episodes to the Indian taxpayer are patently obvious. And an increasingly competitive and feisty press could not resist the temptation to highlight these malfeasances, well aware of the existing wellsprings of public frustration. To compound matters, a plethora of cutthroat television networks, in their endless quest for viewers and ratings, started a steady drumbeat on talk shows and news programs and produced some hard-hitting investigative reports.

With the sheer sums involved and the relentless coverage of these issues, public anger mounted. Not surprisingly, the principal opposition party in parliament, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), bereft of new and alternative ideas to garner electoral support, seized upon these corruption scandals in parliamentary debates. In an effort to portray the ruling Congress Party and its allies as little more than the enablers of crony capitalism, it sought to align its rhetoric to the public mood. Whether the efforts will help win back electoral support to the party, which had championed the cause of Hindu chauvinism as its ideological platform, remains an open question. It is not as if its stint in office, from 1998 to 2004, was wholly untainted by political corruption.

However, the BJP's support for Hazare is playing right into the hands of the UPA. Senior members of the Congress Party lost no time in suggesting that Hazare's closest associates are in league with the BJP and that he is being duped. This tactic, however, may not be especially successful, given the very diverse set of acolytes Hazare has managed to galvanize. For example, among his closest associates is a noted former policewoman, Kiran Bedi, who is known for her intelligence and professionalism. In a country where senior police officials are treated with an amalgam of fear and loathing, she is an individual who, long after leaving office, still commands widespread respect.

Quite apart from the grievances Hazare represents and the individuals who have joined his protest movement, the public anger that has welled up and burst forth might actually be grounded in something more than mere frustration with high-level corruption. It could signify a more profound, long-standing set of frustrations: the callousness of senior public servants, the unresponsiveness of petty bureaucrats, the arbitrary and high-handed behavior of politicians, and the rapaciousness and insensitivity of India's new rich.

It is impossible to predict how Hazare's planned protests in New Delhi's Ramlila grounds will play out. Perhaps the rain, heat, and humidity of monsoon season will dissipate the ardor of his followers as the days wear on and the government finds ways to stave off the opposition in parliament. Or the government's argument -- promoted by Singh, the otherwise respected prime minister -- that Hazare's tactics are suborning democratic procedures and norms could find traction with a host of public intellectuals and even the populace at large. But it is equally possible that the multiplicity of pent-up grievances will continue to drive Hazare's followers, who will finally see an opportunity to bring the powerful and mighty to heel. The electoral costs to Singh could be significant if the agitation continues to be a nationwide issue.

Given the volatility of Indian politics, any of these scenarios is possible. What is apparent, however, is that Hazare has managed to ignite and stoke some primeval misgivings among significant segments of India's electorate. It is hard to envisage how the current government will be able to fend off the tide of public outrage that has come to the fore without making some tangible concessions, such as extending the scope of the present bill. Merely passing some token legislation with anodyne and limited provisions is highly unlikely to assuage the powerful sentiments that this movement has unleashed.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 21 Aug 2011 09:32

^^^^
Why we need new bodies to bring fear or order? Don't we have CBI? why not correct the CBI? Why not correct the judiciary? Why not correct the elections? We want to create some new untested thing at a super jerk speed and later we want to reform the older ones. Why not channel the energies to reform the existing ones first rather than clamor for new bodies? Why not a protest to computerise and reduce red tape and reduce government employment? Why not fight for small government?

The entire bs is for socialist agenda propagated by the Naxal types. It is just a step one of naxal anexation of India. It is a trial for a baby step.

There is no takleef here. Fight regourously to reduce the number of babus and not create a new set with a different name and by means of advertizing and promiting it as new trasparency.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 21 Aug 2011 09:46

gakakkad wrote:Don't you get it biraather? Judiciary will be watched over by corrupt retired judges now in the lokpal . I agree with you that this is awakening of the true India. A true India filled with ignorant people , who don't know what they want , who jump into bandwagons without understanding consequence etc. First thing in a fight against corruption is understanding the fact that it cannot be completely eliminated .

That fact, that corruption cannot be completely uprooted, is understood completely by the Anna team.
Meanwhile, it will be illuminating to know about historical precedents where "followers" of leaders were fully aware of all nuances and consequences. Care to name such? IMO, if the awakened mass is all riled over the need to fight corruption, that's good enough for starters.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 21 Aug 2011 09:49

Pranav wrote:Amazing how many people get all upset by any Takleef to govt Babus, Netas and Judges.

Their is no takleef here over netas or babu's . Don't you get it? The lopkal will be headed by corrupt people. There will also be a MOOIST representation. People like kejriwal , dayal etc are into the whole thing. Every land transfer will be questioned. They want haftas from industries. What is the root cause of corruption and black money ? Our draconian socialistic laws. Do you know how tough it is to get permission for a new business or even buy a piece of agricultural land ? Lok pal is not going to make these any easier. In fact it will only add an extra layer of people that we need to bribe.

Why has their not been any anshan for liberalisation ? why not any for quality in education? In fact people were on road opposing common science curriculum , and measures to reform universities.You know why? Because the super rich can get their work done easily . The poor don't need to get their work done. You know who suffers? The small time industrialist. He is the one who is supposed to provide jobs. And you have the trade unions who are more than willing to bite the hand that feeds them . You have the mooist supporting the trade unions. And the joke pal bill is supported by the crony socialists as they want India to be a medieval village...

India is dead. Long live India.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Aug 2011 09:52

Muppalla wrote:^^^^
Why we need new bodies to bring fear or order? Don't we have CBI? why not correct the CBI?

JL Bill seeks to do just that by transferring the anti-corruption wing of the CBI away from Netas.

Why not correct the judiciary?

JL Bill seeks to make judges accountable too.

Why not correct the elections?

That's an important but separate issue. Need to make elections transparent and verifiable, until then we should stop calling ourselves a democracy.

We want to create some new untested thing at a super jerk speed and later we want to reform the older ones. Why not channel the energies to reform the existing ones first rather than clamor for new bodies?

See, there is a vacuum in that there is no agency for tackling corruption that is independent from the executive.

Why not a protest to computerise and reduce red tape

When this question was asked to Team Anna they said by all means go ahead, we will support you, we can't do everything. So come, step forward, the cause is good.

and reduce government employment? Why not fight for small government?

What is needed is efficient and good governance.

The entire bs is for socialist agenda propagated by the Naxal types. It is just a step one of naxal anexation of India. It is a trial for a baby step.

I don't see any justification for that view, but you are welcome to elaborate.

partha · Post by **partha** » 21 Aug 2011 09:53

Muppalla wrote:
You are right he is not. While searching, I found the following:

Why I Didn’t Join Anna Hazare
Harsh Mandar in the Hindustan Times:

And yet why could I not actively join the demonstration at Jantar Mantar? First, the symbols and allies that the campaign chose disturbed me: the stage was decorated with a picture of Bharat Mata, almost identical to that propagated by the right-wing RSS. Baba Ramdev and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the two 'god-men' who dominated the campaign and whose followers contributed the largest numbers at the protest, endorse many Hindutva causes including the construction of a Ram Temple. RSS leaders like Ram Madhav were welcomed on to the stage. My fears were further confirmed when Anna Hazare declared that Narendra Modi was a 'model' chief minister. It's difficult to comprehend how a campaign that claims to be Gandhian can extol a government responsible for the slaughter of its religious minorities. Is the condoning of violent retribution against communities, the complicity in slaughter of the official machinery, the systematic subversion of the criminal justice system to protect those guilty of the massacre, or extra-judicial killings not signs of corruption?

Oh cool. So you just have to invoke Bharat Mata, Modi, RSS, Hindu etc etc to keep this dude away? That's so easy!

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 21 Aug 2011 09:54

Muppalla wrote:^^^^
Why we need new bodies to bring fear or order? Don't we have CBI? why not correct the CBI? Why not correct the judiciary? Why not correct the elections? We want to create some new untested thing at a super jerk speed and later we want to reform the older ones. Why not channel the energies to reform the existing ones first rather than clamor for new bodies? Why not a protest to computerise and reduce red tape and reduce government employment? Why not fight for small government?

The entire bs is for socialist agenda propagated by the Naxal types. It is just a step one of naxal anexation of India. It is a trial for a baby step.

There is no takleef here. Fight regourously to reduce the number of babus and not create a new set with a different name and by means of advertizing and promiting it as new trasparency.

Most, if not all, of your potential "protest topics" are at a greater level of abstraction than the simple "fight against corruption." Sorry to say this, but they will not strike emotional chords with the masses to the level that "corruption" has done.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Aug 2011 09:59

gakakkad wrote:
Pranav wrote:Amazing how many people get all upset by any Takleef to govt Babus, Netas and Judges.

Their is no takleef here over netas or babu's . Don't you get it? The lopkal will be headed by corrupt people. There will also be a MOOIST representation. People like kejriwal , dayal etc are into the whole thing. Every land transfer will be questioned. They want haftas from industries. What is the root cause of corruption and black money ? Our draconian socialistic laws. Do you know how tough it is to get permission for a new business or even buy a piece of agricultural land ? Lok pal is not going to make these any easier. In fact it will only add an extra layer of people that we need to bribe.

Why has their not been any anshan for liberalisation ? why not any for quality in education? In fact people were on road opposing common science curriculum , and measures to reform universities.You know why? Because the super rich can get their work done easily . The poor don't need to get their work done. You know who suffers? The small time industrialist. He is the one who is supposed to provide jobs. And you have the trade unions who are more than willing to bite the hand that feeds them . You have the mooist supporting the trade unions. And the joke pal bill is supported by the crony socialists as they want India to be a medieval village...

India is dead. Long live India.

Too many scattered points in your post. Why don't we go one point at a time. Take the first point, Lokpal will be headed by corrupt people, with a Maoist representation. Maybe you can justify that, and suggest improvements. Yes, there is a need to improve education etc, but Team Anna is not saying education should not be improved. No need for a general litany of complaints.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 21 Aug 2011 10:10

I think there is a lot of confusion in your post. Why don't we go one point at a time. Take the first point, Lokpal will be headed by corrupt people, with a Maoist representation. Maybe you can justify that, and suggest improvements. No need for general tantrums against everything that is wrong with the universe.

Imagine a small time industrialist . He wants to build office space . And he has agricultural land that he inherited. Now the FSI laws make it difficult for him to extend the building and the office space and he does not get the permission to do so. The corporation is technically correct in denying permission . Because the law says so. The only way to get your work done is pay a bribe. Does it affect the common man? No. Because the bribe here is just a way to circumvent an idiotic law framed 100 years ago.

Now he wants to start a factory in the agricultural land . The land is not fit for growing anything and there is nothing grown in the nearby areas. The land is not irrigated. The rules are such that he ll find it difficult to use a designated agricultural land to build a factory. Again he pays a bribe to get the work done. Does it affect you? No

Now he is not powerful enough to manage trade unions. So he hires contract labourers who have migrated from UP and bihar. That is illegal by several laws in India. So what does he do? Bribe again. In fact the contract labourers he hired might have starved otherwise. He pays them so that they can eat atleast.

Now with this lokpal thing the above guy would find the going quite tough. Some one (his rival) may complain . ETC. So he will have to bribe the lokpal as well. To the ambanis and politicians it hardly makes any difference. They can do business with lok pal . They have deep enough pockets. Its us who face problems.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 21 Aug 2011 10:22

Maoist infiltrate Anna movement-

Maoist on fast in prison for Anna

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 680524.cms

Maoist ask team anna to join them
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 48641.html
The party statement, released by spokesperson Abhay, said, "Recently we saw great support to the hunger strike by Anna Hazare, which is the direct consequence of widespread discontent in people against corruption, corrupt political parties and their leaders. Though the demand for hunger strike is Jan Lokpal Bill, aspiration of people is to completely wipe out corruption."

http://www.terrorismwatch.org/2011/06/m ... -fast.html

Earlier maoist had also extended support to BR

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 002345.cms

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Aug 2011 10:27

gakakkad wrote: Imagine a small time industrialist . He wants to build office space . And he has agricultural land that he inherited. Now the FSI laws make it difficult for him to extend the building and the office space and he does not get the permission to do so. The corporation is technically correct in denying permission . Because the law says so. The only way to get your work done is pay a bribe. Does it affect the common man? No. Because the bribe here is just a way to circumvent an idiotic law framed 100 years ago.

Now he wants to start a factory in the agricultural land . The land is not fit for growing anything and there is nothing grown in the nearby areas. The land is not irrigated. The rules are such that he ll find it difficult to use a designated agricultural land to build a factory. Again he pays a bribe to get the work done. Does it affect you? No

Now he is not powerful enough to manage trade unions. So he hires contract labourers who have migrated from UP and bihar. That is illegal by several laws in India. So what does he do? Bribe again. In fact the contract labourers he hired might have starved otherwise. He pays them so that they can eat atleast.

Now with this lokpal thing the above guy would find the going quite tough. Some one (his rival) may complain . ETC. So he will have to bribe the lokpal as well. To the ambanis and politicians it hardly makes any difference. They can do business with lok pal . They have deep enough pockets. Its us who face problems.

I see where you are coming from, these concerns are very valid. There are plenty of unjustified laws which enable the Neta-babu-judge nexus to extort money from the citizen. The businessman would prefer to pay a bribe and get his work done rather than going to a Lokpal. For such a person a Lokpal would probably not come into the picture. Only when somebody files a complaint against a Babu would the Lokpal come into the picture. Also, such a person is paying bribes out of compulsion .. I have been saying that bribe-paying should not be made a criminal offense in such a case.

As regards corruption in the Lokpal itself, some protection can be built in by having maximum transparency, and by making the Lokpal selection process more democratic, with right to recall.

As regards streamlining governance and getting rid of rigid, bad laws, there is a lot of work that needs to be done. Lokpal is not the answer for this, but Lokpal will not hinder the process either. In fact it may expedite the process if the bad laws cannot be used for extortion.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Aug 2011 11:22

vera_k wrote:
Jarita wrote:Don't get why the churches are so against Anna Hazare. The message has filtered down to the lambs and christians in social media are actively criticizing him
I think they are threatened by modern day Jesus figures, as they are bad for the growth of their business. Plus, its a disaster for INC, as they have been trying to project dynasty members as the Jesus figures to rally around, so there's probably some political direction given to the churches as well.

Check this out as to how Gandhi inspired comparison to Jesus in the British Government -

Churches are not against. Anna Hazare's biographies are being shown in Churches. There is prayer against corruption and "sanmati" for the leaders. Prayer against corruption, for the nation and leaders to govern properly is age old in churches. You can pick up the old small prayerbooks from St Pauls (most widely used) and you can see the prayer for the nation and leaders.

Your comparission to Jesus is too far fetched.

Your comments are unfortunate. However, I don't want to stop you from expressing your thoughts.

IndraD wrote:Maoist infiltrate Anna movement-

Maoist on fast in prison for Anna

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 680524.cms

Maoist ask team anna to join them
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 48641.html
The party statement, released by spokesperson Abhay, said, "Recently we saw great support to the hunger strike by Anna Hazare, which is the direct consequence of widespread discontent in people against corruption, corrupt political parties and their leaders. Though the demand for hunger strike is Jan Lokpal Bill, aspiration of people is to completely wipe out corruption."

http://www.terrorismwatch.org/2011/06/m ... -fast.html

Earlier maoist had also extended support to BR

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 002345.cms

Maoist, RSS, ISS every one is a citizen first. They have all the right to call for support or extend support. They too face same corruption.

Pranav wrote:
gakakkad wrote: Imagine a small time industrialist . He wants to build office space . And he has agricultural land that he inherited. Now the FSI laws make it difficult for him to extend the building and the office space and he does not get the permission to do so. The corporation is technically correct in denying permission . Because the law says so. The only way to get your work done is pay a bribe. Does it affect the common man? No. Because the bribe here is just a way to circumvent an idiotic law framed 100 years ago.

Now he wants to start a factory in the agricultural land . The land is not fit for growing anything and there is nothing grown in the nearby areas. The land is not irrigated. The rules are such that he ll find it difficult to use a designated agricultural land to build a factory. Again he pays a bribe to get the work done. Does it affect you? No

Now he is not powerful enough to manage trade unions. So he hires contract labourers who have migrated from UP and bihar. That is illegal by several laws in India. So what does he do? Bribe again. In fact the contract labourers he hired might have starved otherwise. He pays them so that they can eat atleast.

Now with this lokpal thing the above guy would find the going quite tough. Some one (his rival) may complain . ETC. So he will have to bribe the lokpal as well. To the ambanis and politicians it hardly makes any difference. They can do business with lok pal . They have deep enough pockets. Its us who face problems.
I see where you are coming from, these concerns are very valid. There are plenty of unjustified laws which enable the Neta-babu-judge nexus to extort money from the citizen. The businessman would prefer to pay a bribe and get his work done rather than going to a Lokpal. For such a person a Lokpal would probably not come into the picture. Only when somebody files a complaint against a Babu would the Lokpal come into the picture. Also, such a person is paying bribes out of compulsion .. I have been saying that bribe-paying should not be made a criminal offense in such a case.

As regards corruption in the Lokpal itself, some protection can be built in by having maximum transparency, and by making the Lokpal selection process more democratic, with right to recall.

As regards streamlining governance and getting rid of rigid, bad laws, there is a lot of work that needs to be done. Lokpal is not the answer for this, but Lokpal will not hinder the process either. In fact it may expedite the process if the bad laws cannot be used for extortion.

If you you have stood in the Excise office. There is a long line of SME owners/accountants.

The excise officer who is attending them tells the first guy: Rs 1500 for me, 300 for peopn, Rs 3000 for sahab and Rs 500 for the clerk. Kaho manjur hai?

SME owner: But Sir, this is returned goods and I have suffered loss in this and....

Excise Office: You want to give or not, NEXT!

The poor guy then says ok sir.

One of the SME owner tells me that "As it is its' difficult to compete with Chinese imports, these type of payments make me further incomptetive.

niran · Post by **niran** » 21 Aug 2011 11:26

gakakkad wrote: Lok pal is not going to make these any easier. In fact it will only add an extra layer of people that we need to bribe.

you have got your priorities messed up big time Saar,
Jan Lokpal bill is to provide a forum to compalin and get akshun against corruption
just as you are in trouble lets presume medical trouble you call ambulance service no?
Jan Lokpal bill will provide you a number to complain when you face a babu demanding bribe
all these it do not address this or will not help that is bringing in confusion onlee, this bill addresses

Corruption

onlee.
all other mater other Bills will have to to be promulgated komprende?