The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

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vera_k
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by vera_k »

chackojoseph wrote:Your comparission to Jesus is too far fetched.
I didn't make the connection until I read French's article about the then Viceroy being circumspect about MK Gandhi. But such comparisions seem to be not uncommon in contemporary Indian politics, specifically in the INC worldview.

Aiyar objects to Jayalalithaa's demand
Priyanka's surprise visit to the prison was to meet Nalini on personal grounds, to understand the worst tragedy in her life, and her compassion could be compared to that of Jesus Christ and Mahatma Gandhi.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

vera_k wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Your comparission to Jesus is too far fetched.
I didn't make the connection until I read French's article about the then Viceroy being circumspect about MK Gandhi. But such comparisions seem to be not uncommon in contemporary Indian politics, specifically in the INC worldview.

Aiyar objects to Jayalalithaa's demand
Priyanka's surprise visit to the prison was to meet Nalini on personal grounds, to understand the worst tragedy in her life, and her compassion could be compared to that of Jesus Christ and Mahatma Gandhi.
I still did not understand why Anna Hazare is related to Jesus Christ.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by vera_k »

Because he is being compared to Gandhi (by media) who himself was being compared to Jesus (by the viceroy and Aiyar).
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Mahendra »

Why isn't the nationalist opposition making enough noise about this Horse Manure guy who was on ISI's payroll?
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by partha »

Idea to disband NAC: "communal fascists" should infiltrate NAC by posing themselves as maoist sympathizers, RTI activists, human rights activists and then issue a "Modi is good administrator" statement. A Bharat mata pic on the wall in the background helps.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

vera_k wrote:Because he is being compared to Gandhi (by media) who himself was being compared to Jesus (by the viceroy and Aiyar).
I have not seen anyone comparing Anna With Jesus in media or anything. Please show me where it has been done.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by IndraD »

IB briefs govt-up to 100 000 people likely to turn up on Ramlila ground tomorrow, Delhi police asks for more help/para military force.

http://aajtak.intoday.in/story.php/cont ... pdate.html

Eunuch join AH movement

http://in.news.yahoo.com/video/national ... 64486.html
Last edited by IndraD on 21 Aug 2011 12:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by uddu »

gakakkad wrote:Don't you get it biraather? Judiciary will be watched over by corrupt retired judges now in the lokpal . I agree with you that this is awakening of the true India. A true India filled with ignorant people , who don't know what they want , who jump into bandwagons without understanding consequence etc. First thing in a fight against corruption is understanding the fact that it cannot be completely eliminated .
What makes you think that the present ones presenting the bill need to be in Lokpal. They don't have to be. And dont forget that today's system is completely ideal. It' the worse system that we have. With certain judges asking money to be dropped in front of their house door. With Lokpal, it's only going to improve for good. If needed corruption can be almost eliminated as well. It only requires a strong leader who not only inspires people to stop paying bribes but will ensure that not a single official takes bribe and if they do all of them gets punished. But as long as you dont have leaders like that at the PM level and ministers level or at CM level, you need a strong lokpal bill and machinery to deal with corruption.
Key features of proposed bill

Some important features of the proposed bill are:

To establish a central government anti-corruption institution called Lokpal, supported by Lokayukta at the state level.
As in the case of the Supreme Court and Cabinet Secretariat, the Lokpal will be supervised by the Cabinet Secretary and the Election Commission. As a result, it will be completely independent of the government and free from ministerial influence in its investigations.
Members will be appointed by judges, Indian Administrative Service officers with a clean record, private citizens and constitutional authorities through a transparent and participatory process.
A selection committee will invite shortlisted candidates for interviews, videorecordings of which will thereafter be made public.
Every month on its website, the Lokayukta will publish a list of cases dealt with, brief details of each, their outcome and any action taken or proposed. It will also publish lists of all cases received by the Lokayukta during the previous month, cases dealt with and those which are pending.
Investigations of each case must be completed in one year. Any resulting trials should be concluded in the following year, giving a total maximum process time of two years.
Losses caused to the government by a corrupt individual will be recovered at the time of conviction.
Government officework required by a citizen that is not completed within a prescribed time period will result in Lokpal imposing financial penalties on those responsible, which will then be given as compensation to the complainant.
Complaints against any officer of Lokpal will be investigated and completed within a month and, if found to be substantive, will result in the officer being dismissed within two months.
The existing anti-corruption agencies (CVC, departmental vigilance and the anti-corruption branch of the CBI) will be merged into Lokpal which will have complete power and authority to independently investigate and prosecute any officer, judge or politician.
Whistleblowers who alert the agency to potential corruption cases will also be provided with protection by it.

Now private citizens can be removed from the bill since certain private citizens influencing appointment again going to be undemocratic. These can be debated and refined to make a Lokpal bill that's truly in people's interest.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by jagbani »

Very nice working said by Anna Hazare:-
Today Anna Hazare added "Why should we fight? The funds in government treasuries are ours. The treasuries are not threatened by thieves but by those who guards it. The country is not betrayed by enemies but by these traitors,"

http://www.punjabkesari.in/Punjab/fulls ... 92_141466-
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by uddu »

The ones who fear Anna and the Jan lokpal are these people
Hazare movement is destabilising for nation: Sociologist
http://in.news.yahoo.com/hazare-movemen ... 30660.html
New Delhi, Aug 20 (IANS) The anti-corruption campaign by Anna Hazare and his followers is a social churning whose effects would be destabilising for the country that is already in a 'very fragile, destabilised state', feels leading sociologist Andre Beteille.

"'The concept of a civil society can be problematic, it can be misused...' Beteille said in the context of the ongoing anti-corruption agaitation in the country."

{See the fear. They will lose the political clout enjoyed using politicians. As long as its divide and rule its non-problematic, but if Indians unite its destabilizing}
And who is Andre Béteille?
Andre Béteille is one of India's leading sociologists and writers. He is particularly well known for his studies of the caste system in South India. He is a Professor of Sociology at the Delhi School of Economics at the University of Delhi where he is Professor Emeritus of Sociology since 2003.
In the words of historian Ramachandra Guha,
“ Béteille has written insightfully about all the major questions of the day: India's encounters with the West, the contest between religion and secularism, the relationship between caste and class, the links between poverty and inequality, the nurturing of public institutions, the role and responsibilities of the intellectual."
And one of his comments
"A civilisation that cannot accommodate a variety of traditions, seeking to maintain a jealous hold on only one single tradition, can hardly be called a civilisation." :rotfl:
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by IndraD »

On August 20, for example, Government departments issued 69 advertisements spread over 41 pages in 12 daily English newspapers to commemorate Rajiv Gandhi’s birth anniversary. It is said that the total expenditure for this occasion last year was between Rs 60 crore and 70 crore. And this was a commemoration that excluded the electronic media. When that is brought into the purview of campaigns like Bharat Nirman and advertisements made by agencies with close ties to daughters-in-law and nephews of Ministers, the sums involved can be mind boggling. In short, it doesn’t make business sense for the media to persist with the shrill anti-Government campaign of the past week. This isn’t a matter of politics; it’s prudent business.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/362310/UPAs ... story.html
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Murugan »

Today on Sundy, 22nd 21st August 2011 1,00,000 (1 Lac) People March From Bandra to Juhu by India Against Corruption.

Start Point : Bandra West Rly Stn 1630 hours

Santacruz 1730 hours

Ends at Juhu

Mumbai Protest Coordinator : Ruben Mascarenhas
March Coordinator : Mannan Gandhi - IAC

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_m ... re_1578011
Last edited by Murugan on 21 Aug 2011 14:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

chackojoseph wrote: Churches are not against. Anna Hazare's biographies are being shown in Churches. There is prayer against corruption and "sanmati" for the leaders. Prayer against corruption, for the nation and leaders to govern properly is age old in churches. You can pick up the old small prayerbooks from St Pauls (most widely used) and you can see the prayer for the nation and leaders.

Your comparission to Jesus is too far fetched.

Your comments are unfortunate. However, I don't want to stop you from expressing your thoughts.
Chacko ji, I apreciate your views, but look at this:
Church leaders denounce anti-corruption agitation
http://www.cathnewsindia.com/2011/08/16 ... agitation/

“There is no justification for such agitation when the government has introduced a bill against corruption in parliament,” said Father Babu Joseph, spokesman of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India.
What to make of that?

Most Church denominations in the West are instruments of the political-financial elites there. Churches in India too, especially those affiliated with or financed by western organizations, are liable to function in the interests of those elites. Their raison-d'etre has little to do with what Jesus taught ... they function primarily as political tools for their foreign masters. (Let me hasten to add that this is not a blanket statement - the directions issued at the top may not trickle down effectively to the grassroots, and I am sure there are many honorable individual clergymen and lay members.) An Indian society that is debilitated by corruption will suit the interests of their foreign backers, as well as create a more congenial environment for their own growth. Plus they may not be thrilled to cede the moral high ground to another force, as suggested by Vera_k. I have likened them to an opportunistic infestation on a patient with AIDS.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

Pranav wrote:
Chacko ji, I apreciate your views, but look at this:
Church leaders denounce anti-corruption agitation
http://www.cathnewsindia.com/2011/08/16 ... agitation/

“There is no justification for such agitation when the government has introduced a bill against corruption in parliament,” said Father Babu Joseph, spokesman of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India.
What to make of that?

I have posted links in the "Christian" Fundamentalism in the West thread about how most Church denominations in the West are controlled by elites (who themselves are not necessarily Christian). So some churches in India too, especially those affiliated with or financed by western organizations, are liable to function in the interests of those elites. These churches have very little to do with what Jesus taught ... they function primarily as political tools for their foreign masters. (Let me hasten to add that this is not a universal statement - the directions issued at the top may not trickle down effectively to the grassroots, and I am sure there are many honorable individual clergymen and lay members.) An Indian society that is debilitated by corruption will suit the interests of their foreign backers, as well as create a more congenial environment for their own growth. Plus they may not be thrilled to cede the moral high ground to another force, as suggested by Vera_k. I have likened them to an opportunistic infestation on a patient with AIDS.
Sirji,

You have all right to say things on the condemnation. I am on record that that john Dayal has acted as Congress stooge. But, why bring in Jesus Christ in this? It's loose talk.

Churches are financed because its controlled by Vatican. To say it automatically means a foreign hand, its wrong.

Church sermons tend to lean towards Congress. I have explained the circumstances in the thread (go back few pages).

There is no foreign masters. I will give you an analogy. Hypothically, 80% of the Hinduism followers can't elect a Hindu govt. RSS, VHP have very miniscule members and they complain about the youth not being interested. Now, apply same logic to 2.3% Christian faith followers in India. First of all, there is no Christian political party. Even if it exists, no one know about them. We have certain RSS, VHP equivalents, which are into force ful conversions. Logically, if there were mass conversions in India, from 52 AD, entire India could have been christians. If there is forced conversion, even the Church is trying to clamp on it. However, we have so many denomentations and everything dosen't come under Catholic church. We have radicles too. The British could not force convert too.

The directions from top? our top is not John Dayal. Please go to street and catch the nearest christian and mention John Dayal to him. Its very rare chance that he/she may know the person. Then tell ask if he/she knows the Bishop and Pope and see the responce. You know, this is not a religious direction.

Even John Dayal or Catholic Bishops have not questioned the need for elimnation of corruption. They say the procedure is not right. The out going chairman of Infosys said the same today morning on TV, he is also promoting corruption? So many social activists and intellectuals are questioning Anna. So, can we conclude mandirs are anti Anna and Hindus don't like to see a new Vishnu Avatar. The parallels of John Dayal as Indian religious head and Anna as Christ like is as absurd. The church where I go screened the Anna visuals couple of days back. For those who couldn't attend the special screening, were shown today.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

chackojoseph wrote: But, why bring in Jesus Christ in this?
In fact, I didn't bring in Jesus. It's more about the political (mis)use of religion.
Churches are financed because its controlled by Vatican.
Who controls the Vatican? Many Catholics in the west feel that the Vatican too has been taken over. More will be OT for this thread.
The church where I go screened the Anna visuals couple of days back. For those who couldn't attend the special screening, were shown today.
That is good, I did not make a blanket statement. But you should read the book "Breaking India" by Rajiv Malhotra, has a very in-depth discussion about the politics of the Church in India. [A very clinical discussion which should certainly not be construed as an attack on Jesus.]
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

Pranav wrote:
chackojoseph wrote: But, why bring in Jesus Christ in this?
In fact, I didn't bring in Jesus. It's more about the political (mis)use of religion.
Churches are financed because its controlled by Vatican.
Who controls the Vatican? Many Catholics in the west feel that the Vatican too has been taken over. More will be OT for this thread.
The church where I go screened the Anna visuals couple of days back. For those who couldn't attend the special screening, were shown today.
That is good, I did not make a blanket statement. But you should read the book "Breaking India" by Rajiv Malhotra, has a very in-depth discussion about the politics of the Church in India. [A very clinical discussion which should certainly not be construed as an attack on Jesus.]
Some one did bring in jesus.

The take over of vatican? If you have seen the Popes visit to US/UK and the protests against him.

You should understand. We are not white Christians who run the Christianity in India. We are same race as you.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Chandragupta »

Muppalla wrote:
Singha wrote:are you sure harsh mander is part of team anna? last I checked he was a full member of the NAC!
You are right he is not. While searching, I found the following:

Why I Didn’t Join Anna Hazare
Harsh Mandar in the Hindustan Times:

And yet why could I not actively join the demonstration at Jantar Mantar? First, the symbols and allies that the campaign chose disturbed me: the stage was decorated with a picture of Bharat Mata, almost identical to that propagated by the right-wing RSS. Baba Ramdev and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the two 'god-men' who dominated the campaign and whose followers contributed the largest numbers at the protest, endorse many Hindutva causes including the construction of a Ram Temple. RSS leaders like Ram Madhav were welcomed on to the stage. My fears were further confirmed when Anna Hazare declared that Narendra Modi was a 'model' chief minister. It's difficult to comprehend how a campaign that claims to be Gandhian can extol a government responsible for the slaughter of its religious minorities. Is the condoning of violent retribution against communities, the complicity in slaughter of the official machinery, the systematic subversion of the criminal justice system to protect those guilty of the massacre, or extra-judicial killings not signs of corruption?
Somebody ask this Harsh Bandar fellow, when did calling India, 'Mother India' or 'Bharat Mata' became communal? If the stage was decorated with a picture of Mohammad..wait..that cannot happen..for there is a 51 crore reward on the head of anyone who draws a picture of Shri Mohammad..so if it was a picture of any Islamic symbol, the same monkey would be singing songs of admiration calling it the religious freedom of oppressed minorities..What a sick man!

This needs to be highlighted & debated in the right forums. These people are pushing Hindus to a corner..Singing vande mataram is communal, Bharat Mata is communal, Bharat Mata ki Jai is communal..The day is not far when being Hindu would be communal & a crime.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by IndraD »

http://www.newsbullet.in/india/34-more/ ... anna-fasts

Supporters savour lavish feast as Anna fasts
New Delhi: As activist Anna Hazare's fast against corruption entered sixth day here Sunday, thousands of his supporters at the Ramlila Ground had a lavish breakfast with a wide array of delicacies on offer. With tempos full of bread pakoras, kachoris, samosas, aloo puris, paranthas, rasogollas, tea, biscuits and half a dozen varieties of namkeens, the supporters were spoilt for choice. For the health conscious, there were bananas and mango juice.


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 48720.html
diverse group of crowd attends Ram lila ground

http://www.timesnow.tv/Unprecedented-cr ... 381862.cms
unprecedented crowd at ram lil ground

http://daily.bhaskar.com/article/NAT-TO ... 69440.html
3 tier security thrown around Anna

parents bring kids to see history being made
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 679928.cms
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

Kapil Sibal and P Chidambaram should be sent to Tihar jail so that they can be safe and minimum cost. Public money and more police should not be alloted to them.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

chackojoseph wrote: The take over of vatican? If you have seen the Popes visit to US/UK and the protests against him.
Protests by the ordinary Catholics against the Pope certainly would not disprove my point.
You should understand. We are not white Christians who run the Christianity in India. We are same race as you.
Do Indians fully run Christianity in India? (For that matter, do "white Christians" really run Christianity in the West, at the highest level?) Is it not true that there are foreign inputs in training of clergy, funding and decisions regarding senior appointments? If that is the case, then are the said foreign organizations purely religious or is there a political angle. Who controls them. These are the questions that need to be explored. I will not go further in this thread, but will email you if you post your address.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

Pranav wrote:
chackojoseph wrote: The take over of vatican? If you have seen the Popes visit to US/UK and the protests against him.
Protests by the ordinary Catholics against the Pope certainly would not disprove my point.
You should understand. We are not white Christians who run the Christianity in India. We are same race as you.
Do Indians fully run Christianity in India? (For that matter, Do "white Christians" really run Christianity in the West, at the highest level?) Is it not true that there are foreign inputs in training of clergy, funding and decisions regarding senior appointments? If that is the case, then are the said foreign organizations purely religious or is there a political angle. Who controls them. These are the questions that need to be explored. I will not go further in this thread, but will email you if you post your address.
You don't understand the way it works. All Christians are not catholics. Now, see the composition of british and US Christians. it will open your eyes. there are Catholicism, Orthodoxy and protestants. To say pope controlls everyone, is wrong.

Naturally Indian bishops, cardinals and priests run Indian chapter. they have their own lobbies in vetican. Its not that vatican issues orders and its automatically rolled out in India. I am begning to get a feeling that We Indians whi follow christianity are osome kind of plants who are supposed to subvert India.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by vishvak »

From http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1150812
chackojoseph wrote:
vishvak wrote: Allow me gracefully to present a few contradictions in above post.

"when India was allegdly Hindu majority" - could you clarify on the alleged part please?

"India forms a mix of multi enthic, multi cultural, multi religion etc. It was brought toghter by political entity and not religious. It came under the constitution of India. The idea of Indian state unified India"

It is the same constitution that never says that clerical class should sway public opinion, so how 'secular' is that? The multicultural essence of the constitution does not mean suppressing culture of natives and its expressions to be decided by clergy of a religion as 'wrong' which goes on still. The Idea of multicultural India does not need certificate of clergy class( which as this thread could point out, are not too multicultural historically) who point out how it is 'incorrect' because it incorporates any symbolism of native culture. Coincidentally, any 'way' pointed out by Bishops could definitely include 'idea's like pray, gatherings at Churches, love and compassion, devil hate (by the way, there is no Devil in this culture), and so on. So it any such 'way' any secular by the same standards, because it could be termed 'wrong' as well.
There was Muslim rule too - hence allegdly. its a tounge in cheek way of saying things.

The constitution also dosen't object to it. I read someone saying that Hindu priest don't sermon politics. How come BJP survives?

Could this part be elaborated?
"The constitution also dosen't object to it."
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by gakakkad »

If you you have stood in the Excise office. There is a long line of SME owners/accountants.

The excise officer who is attending them tells the first guy: Rs 1500 for me, 300 for peopn, Rs 3000 for sahab and Rs 500 for the clerk. Kaho manjur hai?

SME owner: But Sir, this is returned goods and I have suffered loss in this and....

Excise Office: You want to give or not, NEXT!

The poor guy then says ok sir.

One of the SME owner tells me that "As it is its' difficult to compete with Chinese imports, these type of payments make me further incomptetive.
Agreed , precisely thats what happens. It is the business of CBI , ED , IT people to check over central excise people . But what actually happens is that they partner with the central excise guy. That way the bribe goes right to the top. A classic blackmail tactic that these people use to increase the kick back amount is

Excise Officer - Boss , vigilance waale aaye the. Saari file check ki Rs 6000 le ke gaye . tumhe ab 14000 dena hoga.

After the introduction of lokpal bill what will happen is -

Yaar lokpal waale aaye the , hafta maang rahe hain ,Tumhe 20k dena hoga.

This will only add to the corrupt officers and the kickbacks . While the actual culprit in this case was the stupid excise rules which force SME's to take such losses . It was expected that GST would replace excise . But alas crony netas.

My uncle had an SME 2 decades ago , he was forced to shut it down. Whenever he visits , thats what he talks about.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

vishvak wrote:Could this part be elaborated?
"The constitution also dosen't object to it."
Show me the text in constitution that dosen't allow priests to preach politics.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Philip »

I went to an AH anti-C meet yesterday out of curiosity,well attended over 10,000 people.One student had this to say.He said that he was told that "Democracy" was "Of the poeple,by the people and for the people",but he had now learnt that in India it meant "Off" (with you) the people,"Buy" the people-rubbing his fingers and "For" (vote for) the people!
Some slogans,"Corruption king,Man Mohan Singh"."Anna ki Jai,Man Mohan ki Jail".

The AH movement is far from perfect.The nation is ruled by the Constitution and Parliament is supreme,being the will of the people through its elected rulers.However,when the rulers fortget that they "serve" the people and have to listen to them...at their peril,we have a situ as of today,where the extra-constitutional forces are gaining huge support in the dereliction of duty by "honourable men" and women right from the top.

The UPA,rather the Congress lump of the alliance,has lost the plot and is certainly going to lose the next election.When Pranab Mukherjee,supposed to be th smartest of the aging geriatric cabinmet of MMS on AIR's news bulletin this afternoon says that "inflation has come down from 22% to 0%,still too much and we are hoping that a good monsoon and good agricultural production will bring it down further...",it revals the utter poverty of imagination inj the UPA ruling elite.If all that is needed for the country's eco welfare and ther answer to bringing down inflation is a "good monsoon",then who needs an FM?! We might as well make the Met dept. the FM!

The young Intern,green behind the years,with his Mama the Matron herself a patient in hospital,will have to accept the "alternative medicine" suggested by the village apothecary,AH,then immediately pension off the good doctor ek thum and cut off the "gangrene" in the cabinet to save the patient-the Party.This is the only way in which the Congress can salvage the situ and restore some semblance of authority.They say that the Chinese word for both crisis and opportunity is the same.If I was Rahul G,I would even join AH at Ramlila Grounds and go on fast! But does he have the vision and the guts, say of a Sanjay G?

PS:I agree with Chacko.There is no unified "Church" in India.We have apart from the Catholics-who look to the Vatican for leadership,among the Protestant churches,the two main Protestant bodies are the CNI and CSI which were created by the majority of Protestant chuches merging together after Independence like Anglicans,Presbyterian,etc.,both mired in corruption scandals ad nauseum,the Orthodox churches in Kerala and the proliferation of EJs.Add to this are the non-mainstream entities like the 7th-Day Adventists,the Pentecostals,Mormons,etc., not considered part of the mainstream global "Protestant Communion",which looks towards the Archbishop of Cantebury as a mere "constitutional head" unlike the Pope who is the supreme head of the Catholic Church.The Indian churchgoers are more worried about the massive scandals in their institutions,caused by corrupt church leaders some of whom leverage their status for political favours and gain too,than any political leaning. I remember as a child good Catholics who were Communists!

PPS:Meanwhile the Pope ,worried over falling Catholic memebsrhip in Europe in aprticular,has called for a new "Evangelism' to save the day,where "every Catholic" is to be an evangelist.
How many will respond remains to be seen and this should be discussed in the appropriate thread.

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=40083
Church Exists to Evangelize! Pope Calls every Catholic to Become a Missionary
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by gakakkad »

You don't understand the way it works. All Christians are not catholics. Now, see the composition of british and US Christians. it will open your eyes. there are Catholicism, Orthodoxy and protestants. To say pope controlls everyone, is wrong.

Naturally Indian bishops, cardinals and priests run Indian chapter. they have their own lobbies in vetican. Its not that vatican issues orders and its automatically rolled out in India. I am begning to get a feeling that We Indians whi follow christianity are osome kind of plants who are supposed to subvert India.
Hey people calm down. We have nothing against most christians. In fact even catholics denounce this John Dayal character. An average Indian christian is just like everyone else. As far as educated youth are concerned , many of them are close to being atheist , regardless of religion they were born into.

http://www.christianaggression.org/item ... 1126763621
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by vishvak »

chackojoseph wrote:
vishvak wrote:Could this part be elaborated?
"The constitution also dosen't object to it."
Show me the text in constitution that dosen't allow priests to preach politics.
I am not sure where constitution says that any display of native culture and symbolism can be decided as 'wrong' by priests. Priests don't have rights to judge native cultures.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

gakakkad wrote:Yaar lokpal waale aaye the , hafta maang rahe hain ,Tumhe 20k dena hoga.
Quite possible. However, unlike appointment of PM, judges etc, Lokpal appointment will have different procedure and checks. it might happen that some officials from organs like a liberated CBI might indulge in it. Lokpal will evolve in aperiod of time.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

gakakkad wrote:Hey people calm down. We have nothing against most christians. In fact even catholics denounce this John Dayal character. An average Indian christian is just like everyone else. As far as educated youth are concerned , many of them are close to being atheist , regardless of religion they were born into.

http://www.christianaggression.org/item ... 1126763621
precisely the point. Thank you.
vishvak wrote:I am not sure where constitution says that any display of native culture and symbolism can be decided as 'wrong' by priests. Priests don't have rights to judge native cultures.
sirji, none of the practices by Christians and our priests are illegal wrt to constitution and the laws of the country.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

chackojoseph wrote: You don't understand the way it works. All Christians are not catholics. Now, see the composition of british and US Christians. it will open your eyes. there are Catholicism, Orthodoxy and protestants. To say pope controlls everyone, is wrong.
Yes, I am quite aware of all that.
Naturally Indian bishops, cardinals and priests run Indian chapter. they have their own lobbies in vetican. Its not that vatican issues orders and its automatically rolled out in India. I am begning to get a feeling that We Indians whi follow christianity are osome kind of plants who are supposed to subvert India.
This is getting seriously OT, the bredators will be circling soon. I will explain what I mean on email. I sent you an email at [email protected] . Is that your correct address?
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by gakakkad »


Members will be appointed by judges, Indian Administrative Service officers with a clean record, private citizens and constitutional authorities through a transparent and participatory process.
Most IAS officers have a clean record. Most of them take bribes. You must understand that human nature is fundamentally selfish and greedy. Even if you and I sit in the committee a crate of 50 crores will surely look tempting to both of us.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

Pranav

[email protected]

gakakkad,

IAS is a government controlled institution. Thats why the Lokpal required to oversee them.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rajanb »

Phillip, well put.
The AH movement is far from perfect.The nation is ruled by the Constitution and Parliament is supreme,being the will of the people through its elected rulers.However,when the rulers fortget that they "serve" the people and have to listen to them...at their peril,we have a situ as of today,where the extra-constitutional forces are gaining huge support in the dereliction of duty by "honourable men" and women right from the top.
The constitution is indeed supreme, but also subject to change by Parliament.
The definition of Indian Parliament: The Parliament of India is the supreme legislative body in India. Founded in 1919, the Parliament alone possesses legislative supremacy and thereby ultimate power over all political bodies in India.
Parliament is composed of 802 MPs, who serve the largest democratic electorate in the world.

I would think parliament being supreme is subject to its serving the electorate? And citizens, (referred to as civil society in the AH context), have a right to ask and educate parliament as to how their elected members should serve.

The INCs hiding behind the words Supreme etc. doesn't hold water.

The constitution starts with the words "We the people.....".

It boils down to the fact that our representatives, once they are elected, seem to forget that they have to "serve the electorate".

Now the latest twist to the tale is that the standing committe has to give its opinion. But see the purpose of these committees:
Parliamentary committees play a vital role in the Parliamentary System. They are a vibrant link between the Parliament, the Executive and the general public. (sic)
The need for Committees arises out of two factors, the first one being the need for vigilance on the part of the Legislature over the actions of the Executive, while the second one is that the modern Legislature these days is over-burdened with heavy volume of work with limited time at its disposal. It thus becomes impossible that every matter should be thoroughly and systematically scrutinised and considered on the floor of the House. If the work is to be done with reasonable care, naturally some Parliamentary responsibility has to be entrusted to an agency in which the whole House has confidence. Entrusting certain functions of the House to the Committees has, therefore, become a normal practice. This has become all the more necessary as a Committee provides the expertise on a matter which is referred to it.

In a Committee, the matter is deliberated at length, views are expressed freely, the matter is considered in depth, in a business-like manner and in a calmer atmosphere. In most of the Committees, public is directly or indirectly associated when memoranda containing suggestions are received, on-the-spot studies are conducted and oral evidence is taken which helps the Committees in arriving at the conclusions.

Parliamentary Committees are of two kinds: Ad hoc Committees and the Standing Committees most powerful of all is public accounts committee which is headed by the leader of the opposition.
I would think that there is a mockery of the whole system, particularly in the realm of representing the people.

Ultimately, notwithstanding what the standing committee says the ruling party can pass anything by a majority vote.

After 42 years of waiting for the LokPal Bill, people have a right to get tired of waiting. I would hesitate to brand the current movement as extra constitutional. And perhaps justify a fast due to the fact that if extreme measures are not taken another 42 years may go by before we see a Lokpal Bill
Last edited by rajanb on 21 Aug 2011 17:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chetak »

People’s theatre performs for social change
Shahira Naim/TNS Lucknow, August 20

Thousands of persons had gathered in front of the Nawabganj police station in Kanpur to witness Sanjeeba’s street play “Ladki lut gai thane mein” based on a true incident which had happened at that very police station.

So overwhelming was the response to the play that depicted the police shoving a baton into the private parts of a Dalit girl inside the police station that by late evening, a nervous district administration suspended the entire staff of the police station concerned.

That was seven years ago. Artistes in this street theatre group are not professional actors, but working class people - rickshaw pullers, vegetable vendors, mechanics and tailors - who contribute their bit to society by engaging in this theatre for change. They not only put in their precious time, but some even contribute their earnings to carry on the activity that provides some meaning to their otherwise mundane life.

Sanjeeba, now 43, had started this theatre group which still does not have a formal name, some 10 years ago along with his friends and acquaintances from Nawabganj, the locality in which he lives. He runs a photo frame shop in Kanpur.

A member of an affluent zamindar family which is now into cold storage business, Sanjeeba’s sensibilities from the very beginning had made it clear that he had no interest in the family business. This had caused much friction in the family. He candidly admits getting no financial or emotional support from his family.

Giving an insight into his kind of theatre, he said, "None of my plays are for pure entertainment. They are aimed at social awakening and reformation. Most of the time, they are in response to a real social problem at hand.”

Recalling how he started his theatre group, Sanjeeba said that around 10 years ago, a very close friend, senior at the university and room mate committed suicide blaming the insensitive world and the failure of the system for his unhappiness. “I decided to gather like-minded people to start a theatre group which will not take things lying down.”
Other members of the group also live in the same locality and their friendship goes back several years. Prem Pehahwan is a vegetable seller, Durgesh repairs wrist watches and Bahadur pulls a rickshaw for a living.

Every evening, after finishing the day’s hard work, they collect at Sanjeeba’s house for discussion over local events, development of storylines and rehearsals of some play on burning social issues.

The first play that they staged was on the Arti case in which a girl had been disfigured due to an acid attack by a boy when she had refused to marry him.

Hitting out at the systemic failure to respond to such happenings, the villain in the plays are often the police, politicians and more often popular apathy.

Usually taking inspiration from real local incidents, the plays have commonplace names - Vardi wala kutta (Dog in uniform), Ladki lut gayi thane mein, (Girl looted inside police station), Police acchi ya kutta (Police better or dog), Neta aur suuar (Leader and pig), Neta pito swarg milega (Beat leaders and enter paradise) and so on.

The no-frills “nukkad nataks” by Sanjeeba and his troupe are their ways of realising their individual and collective social responsibility and bringing in a positive change in society by breaking the silence and demanding action.

Listing the advantage of street theatre over other forms of communication, Sanjeeba said that he and his troupe manage to deliver the message to literate as well as non-literate persons without making them shell out a single paisa.”

“Five years ago, a student undergoing coaching for medical entrance exam was sodomised by some city policemen. This led to our play “Police acchi ya kutta”. The pressure of the shows caused not only the suspension of the policemen, but also ensured that they were put behind bars,” recalls Sanjeeba.

Sanjeeba, a graduate from Kanpur University is a director, lyricist, actor, studio recorder and writer. He has authored two books - “Ye Desh Angrzo Tum Chalao” and “Nange Paw Sanjeeda: Discovery of Indian Democracy”.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

What Lokpal hegde said was "parliamnet is supreme when making law. it dosen't stop people from protesting. After a bill has been passed in parliamnet, it can be challenged in court and it can be ruled invalid."

So, just the process of making law is "supreme." Not before the process and after the process.

What congress intreprets is that "it makes them rulers."

Thats my understanding.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by vijayk »

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/anger ... n/834887/0
Anger after Ramlila midnight is over Govt, netas and reservation
They have gathered for Anna’s fast, full-throatedly chime Vande Mataram and Inquilab Zindabad and Bharat Mata ki Jai and slogans more specifically targeted: Sonia jiski mummy hai, woh sarkar nikammi hai; Manmohan jiska tau hai, woh sarkar bikau hai; Desh ka yuva jaag gaya, Rahul Gandhi bhaag gaya.
The failure of the political class is framed overwhelmingly in terms of the betrayal of the bargain between tax payer and government. “It is our money, you tax us over and over again, and we cannot even ask where the money goes?” asks Ravi, IT engineer who works in Delhi.

Anti-Congress voices are loud in the maidan. Kapil Sibal appears to be the Congress politician the gathering loves to hate the most, but slogans are also raised against Sonia Gandhi, Manmohan Singh, Rahul Gandhi and Manish Tewari.
There are Maoists, ANti-reservations people, Pro Reforms, Anti Reform all striving to make their voice heard so they can have a better system. They speak half left and half nationalistic and little right wing. They are just simple patriotic Indians trying to create a fair system.

The way this wretched administration refused to hear middle class voice is appalling. No wonder people are angry.

I hope NDA channels this frustration and anger among people to create a wave against this discredit crackpots who thing discrediting reforms, middle class and Hindus is the only way to rule India.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rajanb »

chackojoseph wrote:What Lokpal hegde said was "parliamnet is supreme when making law. it dosen't stop people from protesting. After a bill has been passed in parliamnet, it can be challenged in court and it can be ruled invalid."

So, just the process of making law is "supreme." Not before the process and after the process.

What congress intreprets is that "it makes them rulers."

Thats my understanding.
Correct CJ. But I was shocked when I read that even the standing committee is supposed to be a vibrant link with the general public?

Never even heard them communicate with people!

The misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the constitution seems to be INCs only defence!
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Muppalla »

chackojoseph wrote:IAS is a government controlled institution. Thats why the Lokpal required to oversee them.
Don't we have CVC (Vigilance department) to oversee them. Why not CVC be reformed and made as independent body with transperancy?

For everything that this Lokpal is proposing, there is an existing institution though not perfect.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by chackojoseph »

rajanb wrote:Correct CJ. But I was shocked when I read that even the standing committee is supposed to be a vibrant link with the general public?

Never even heard them communicate with people!

The misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the constitution seems to be INCs only defence!
As I gather, Middle Class gives middle finger to them during vote so they stopped communicating. Hence you can see the price rise and all for middle class.
Muppalla wrote:Don't we have CVC (Vigilance department) to oversee them. Why not CVC be reformed and made as independent body with transperancy?

For everything that this Lokpal is proposing, there is an existing institution though not perfect.
Sirji, You are right. CBI, CVC etc should be ideally free. But, governamend won't do it. Congress buerau of Investigation, Congress Vigilance Committee etc. Jan lokpal asks govt to free CBI and such institutions. Govt says when you require CBI, we will depute some (corrupt and manipulative who will actually put spokes in your job for us) officers to you. Now you understand why the anna team is peeved with Congress draft?
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