Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 06 Aug 2011 09:35

if you could provide the context you took it from, perhaps it will help.
As for Bhaktidharmatmaj - Bhakti + Dharma + Atmaja is easily understood. herein, Atmaja refers to offspring, male or female.Hence, offspring of Bhakti and Dharma.

And for Bhaktidharmatmajay - Bhakti + Dharma + Atmajay , it would help if we know the context.I really have not yet come across this usage, though the Atmaja is common usage.it could even be a possible collquialisation of the other word. I know of names Atma Jaya, Atmajaya but the usage of the term Bhaktidharmatmajay I didn't come across.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 06 Aug 2011 13:12

Started watching Chanakya again...Could some Guru explain me the difference between "Mahamatya", "Mantrivar"and "Mahamantri"? please.

Thanks

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 06 Aug 2011 13:45

^^^ Mahamatya ~ Vidhwaan ~ maha Pandit

Mantri-var ~ Ministry portfolio holder or addressing the position of Minister
Mahamantri ~ Prime Minister

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Aug 2011 21:29

Klaus, How is the Pisacha language article proceeding?

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 06 Aug 2011 21:57

Thanks Klausji. One more pooch...who is more powerful among Mahamatya and Mahamantri? In Chanakya series case, Mahamatya Rakshas seems to be powerful? Secret agents report to him? Mahamatya is also close to King? Mahamantri aka Prime Minister seems less powerful? Mahamantri aka Prime Minister is supposed to be more powerful no?

Regards.

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 07 Aug 2011 05:26

Someone was reciting a stotra akin to vishnusahastra naam and I was intrigued by this name and wasn't sure if it was Bhaktidharmatmaj or Bhaktidharmatmajay in the blank below.

Aum shree __________ namaha!

Although your earlier post did help me understand, can explain the difference in meaning if any, for the following three:

Aum shree Bhaktidharmatmaj, shree krishnaay namaha!

or

Aum shree Bhaktidharmajaya, shree krishnaay namaha!

or

Aum shree Bhaktidharmajaya namaha!

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 07 Aug 2011 05:54

^^^ It would probably be Aum Shree Bhaktidharmatmajaya Namah! In this usage, Bhakti+Dharma+Atmaja+ya seems to be the sandhi vichheda. The "ya" ending indicates "he who"

Bhaktidharmatmajaya = He who is born of Bhakti and Dharma.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 08 Aug 2011 19:35

Lomasha Rishi's Samadhi -----------------------------------Rewalsar lake --------------------------------------------------- Padmasambhava

A beautiful place called Rewalsar, Source website:http://www.vanamaliashram.org/Rewalsar.html is the abode of Lomasha Rishi, the mystic sage who attained liberation,and was blessed by Lord Shiva with seven guardian spirits, who move around on miniature islands in the lake at Rewalsar,even today. This sight is to be seen to be believed, seven miniature islands float on this lake, independent of each other.The story of the formation of this lake itself is awe inspiring.

Lomasha Rishi, one of the immortals with a lifespan equal to Brahma's life span, made this region his abode, and used to meditate there.At first this lake did not exist.Rewalsar Lake is a mystcial place. This lake's origins are strange, it was formed when Lomasha Rishi during his penance in the Himalayas was burnt by the henchmen of the King of Mandi, his pyre smoked for seven days and on the seventh day the ground caved in, a Lake sprang up in its place. The penance of Lomasha rishi was blessed by Lord Vishnu and Lord Siva, who gave him in gift 7 floating reed islands that still float about in the lake on their own will, and seemingly bless the visitors. Interestingly exactly the same legend is spoken of Rimpoche Padmasambhava, so I feel that Lomasha Rishi and Padmasambhava are the same person.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Aug 2011 03:57

The unsung verses of the Indian National Anthem

Stanza 2

Ohoroho Tobo Aahbaano Prachaarito,Shuni Tabo Udaaro Baani

Hindu Bauddho Shikho Jaino,Parashiko Musholmaano Christaani

Purabo Pashchimo Aashey,Tabo Singhaasano Paashey

Premohaaro Hawye Gaanthaa

Jano Gano Oikyo Bidhaayako Jayo Hey,Bhaarato Bhaagyo Bidhaataa

Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey,Jayo Jayo Jayo, Jayo Hey

Meaning:

Your call is announced continuously, we heed Your gracious call

The Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains, Parsees, Muslims, and Christians,

The East and the West come, to the side of Your throne

And weave the garland of love.

Oh! You who bring in the unity of the people!

Victory be to You, dispenser of the destiny of India!

Stanza 3

Potono Abhbhudoy Bandhuro Ponthaa,Jugo Jugo Dhaabito Jaatri

Hey Chiro Saarothi, Tabo Ratha Chakrey Mukhorito Potho Dino Raatri

Daaruno Biplabo Maajhey,Tabo Shankhodhwoni Bajey

Sankato Dukkho Traataa

Jano Gano Potho Parichaayako,Jayo Hey Bhaarato Bhaagyo Bidhaataa

Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey,Jayo Jayo Jayo, Jayo Hey

Meaning:

The way of life is somber as it moves through ups and downs,But we, the pilgrims, have followed it through ages.

Oh! Eternal Charioteer, the wheels of your chariot echo day and night in the path

In the midst of fierce revolution, your conch shell sounds.

You save us from fear and misery

Oh! You who guide the people through tortuous path...

Victory be to You, dispenser of the destiny of India!

Stanza 4

Ghoro Timiro Ghono Nibiro,Nishithey Peerito Murchhito Deshey

Jagrato Chhilo Tabo Abicholo Mangalo,Noto Nayoney Animeshey

Duhswapney Aatankey,Rokkhaa Koriley Ankey

Snehamoyi Tumi Maataaa

Jano Gano Duhkho Trayako,Jayo Hey Bhaarato Bhaagyo Bidhaataa

Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey,Jayo Jayo Jayo, Jayo Hey

Meaning:

During the bleakest of nights, when the whole country was sick and in swoon

Wakeful remained Your incessant blessings, through Your lowered but winkless eyes

Through nightmares and fears, You protected us on Your lap

Oh Loving Mother

Oh! You who have removed the misery of the people...

Victory be to You, dispenser of the destiny of India!

Stanza 5

Raatri Prabhatilo Udilo Rabichhabi, Purbo Udayo Giri Bhaaley

Gaahey Bihangamo Punyo Samirano, Nabo Jibano Rasho Dhaley

Tabo Karunaaruno Ragey,Nidrito Bhaarato Jagey

Tabo Chorone Noto Maatha

Jayo Jayo Jayo Hey, Jayo Rajeshwaro, Bhaarato Bhaagyo Bidhaataa

Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey,Jayo Jayo Jayo, Jayo Hey

Meaning:

The night is over, and the Sun has risen over the hills of the eastern horizon.

The birds are singing, and a gentle auspicious breeze is pouring the elixir of new life.

By the halo of Your compassion India that was asleep is now waking

On your feet we lay our heads

Victory, Victory, Victory be to You, the Supreme King, the dispenser of the destiny of India

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Aug 2011 09:10

Devesh, Went to a temple on Friday for Varalakshmi puja. The priest is from Khammam. We had great company of all over AP.

One of the seniors recited Srinadha's poetry about Agastya describing Lakshmi Devi to his wife Lopamudra.
Will try to convince him to make an mp3 and put on temple website.

I thought of you.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 13 Aug 2011 10:30

^^^
that is eerily coincidental. My parents went to Varalakshmi vratam today (friday) too...
and there are some more activities planned tomorrow for Raksha Bandhan/Upakarma/Hayagriva Jayanti....

btw, what temples is it?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 13 Aug 2011 11:54

Time now is arranging for the entire song of Janaganamana with some 39 singers from entire country. No S.P. Balasubramayam, no Vanijayaaram and no Yesudas. Only P Suseela is there. No Mangalampalli or any one from Karnataka. No Carnatac music legends where s many Hindustani greats are there. Like a true English Hindi gang, south people are not visible in any national cultural act.

By the was who is this person giving destiny to our nation??? God? If yes and I do not beleive in God does it mean I need not sign this song? No one bothered to sing full Vademathan song on Tv of course.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Aug 2011 21:48

A short note on one of the:

Pancha Kavyas of Telugu Literature

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Aug 2011 05:28

Narayana Rao wrote:Time now is arranging for the entire song of Janaganamana with some 39 singers from entire country. No S.P. Balasubramayam, no Vanijayaaram and no Yesudas. Only P Suseela is there. No Mangalampalli or any one from Karnataka. No Carnatac music legends where s many Hindustani greats are there. Like a true English Hindi gang, south people are not visible in any national cultural act.

By the was who is this person giving destiny to our nation??? God? If yes and I do not beleive in God does it mean I need not sign this song? No one bothered to sing full Vademathan song on Tv of course.

Today, experience the full magic of 'Jana Gana Mana'

Almost every Indian knows 'Jana Gana Mana'. Or to be more precise, the first stanza, which was officially adopted as the Indian national anthem on January 24, 1950. Ironically, hardly anyone knows the four stanzas that follow. If you too, are unaware of these riveting, soul-stirring verses, then here's a golden opportunity: the full anthem - as it was written in 1911 by Rabindranath Tagore - will be played on Times Now immediately after the Prime Minister's Independence Day speech. There will be a repeat telecast on the News Hour at 9pm. The anthem will also be played through the day on Radio Mirchi and is also available on http://www.timesofindia.com.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Aug 2011 23:34

Pioneer Book Review:

LINK

Analysing Ganesha
August 13, 2011 8:13:28 PM

99 Thoughts on Ganesha
Author: Devdutt Pattanaik
Publisher: Jaico
Price: Rs 195

Devdutt Pattanaik’s latest book provokes Ashok Vohra to look into the world of Ganesha and the legends associated with him

In the Indian tradition, Lord Ganesha is worshipped before undertaking any project. Initially a folk deity, he came to occupy a revered place as a remover of obstacles in the puranic literature. His popularity increased by the eighth century. Slowly, he evolved into a mainstream deity of Hindus.

Ganesha became the patron of intellectuals, scribes and authors. The term ‘Ganesha’ means “lord of the common people” (gana meaning commoners) as well as the “lord of troops” (ganas being the goblin hosts, attendants, of Shiva, of whom Ganesha is the leader). The vehicle of Ganesha is mooshka — mouse, rat, bandicoot. Depending on the boon one wants from him, he has been given names — Vinayaka, Vighnaraja, Dvaimaatura, Ganaadhipa, Ekadanta, Heramba, Dhumravarna, Lambodara, Gajaanana, Ekakshra, Haridra, Rinamochana, Sankatahara, Pillaiyar, etc.

Just as the name ‘Ganesha’ admits of several interpretations, his form too is an artist’s delight, as it lends itself to infinite presentations. Ganesha has benevolent as well as malevolent forms. The image in which the trunk is turned left towards the heart represents the benevolent form. And, an image in which it is turned away from the heart represents the malevolent form. In Nepal, Tibet, Mongolia and the whole of Central Asia, Ganesha appears as a Buddhist deity. He occupies a central place in tantrik rituals. In Burma, Cambodia, Indonesia and Thailand, Ganesha is worshipped without emotions in a ritualistic manner.

The image of Ganesha can be seen in at least two ways — one is to look at it as an aggregate of elephant head and human body; the other way is to look at it as a whole — a composite deity. The former is analytic, while the latter denotes a holistic approach. The outlook of a believer is composite, while that of an outsider is analytic. Those who do not belong to the given culture and tradition are outsiders — ‘the others’. They have an analytic attitude.

Among our contemporary ‘others’ who have used ‘Eurocentric categories to analyse Hindu religion and folklore’, the first who comes to mind is Paul Courtright. In his book, Ganesha: Lord of Obstacles, Lord of Beginnings, he begins with the elephant’s head of Ganesha for his analysis. He says, “From a psychoanalytical perspective, there is meaning in the selection of the elephant head. Its trunk is the displaced phallus, a caricature of Shiva’s linga. It poses no threat because it is too large, flaccid and in the wrong place to be useful for sexual purpose... The elephant’s head is also a mask, and, as it is a mask its purpose simultaneously is to reveal and to conceal, it both disguises and expresses aggression inherent in the story. So, Ganesha takes on the attributes of his father but in an inverted form, with an exaggerated phallus — ascetic and benign — whereas Shiva’s is ‘hard’ (urdhavalinga), erotic and destructive”.

The cause of Ganesha’s celibacy is traced for opposite reasons to both his father and mother. He cannot “compete with his father, a notorious womaniser, either incestuously for his mother or for any other woman for that matter”. That Ganesha is an ‘incestuous’ son is traced to the following anecdote: “Once Parvati asked Ganesha whom he would like to marry; he replied, ‘Someone exactly like you, Mummy’. And ‘Mummy’ got outraged by such an openly incestuous wish and cursed him with everlasting celibacy”. I have deliberately used the translation used by Courtright. One can see how tenuous the proof is.

In an Indian context, isn’t it common for a marriageable boy to say that the ideal girl for him for life companionship would be like his mother? Mother in this culture is perceived as the bearer of all virtues, source of unending love, and the one who sacrifices everything for the sake of her children and family. However Westernised one may be, the idea of Ganesha having an incestuous wish can only arouse repulsion in the insider.

Ganesha is then seen as a eunuch because he is guarding the inner chamber of Parvati. The argument advanced by Courtright for this bizarre conclusion is: “Ganesha is like a eunuch guarding the women of the harem.” He quotes Hiltebeitel as saying, “In Indian folklore and practice, eunuchs have served as trusted guardians of the antahpura, the seraglio. They have the reputation of being homosexuals, with a penchant for oral sex, and are looked upon as the very dregs of society.” According to Courtright, “Ganesha’s broken tusk, his guardian’s staff, and displaced head can be interpreted as symbols of castration”.

In his analysis of Ganesha’s physical features in chapter 39 in particular and section on symbols in general, author Devdutt Pattanaik seems to have inadvertently fallen into the trap of analysis. But for this, the vignettes comprising half page to a full page on a theme relating to Ganesha give elementary information about his creation, family, representations, stories, symbols, temples, festivals, rituals, literature, history, spread and wisdom. Hopefully, these bare facts would help the ‘others’ gain a better understanding, and provide the ‘insiders’ additional information about Lord Ganesha.

The reviewer is professor of philosophy, University of Delhi

I thought Ganesha had two consorts Siddhi and Riddhi and had two sons Kshema and Labha.

man need to stop this propagandu works from the West.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Aug 2011 00:18

ramana wrote:A short note on one of the:

Pancha Kavyas of Telugu Literature

Raghava Pandaveeyam

The interesting thing is that in this kavyam, Sri Pingali Surana (16CE) achieved a literary marvel. Each poem of that book gives two meanings. Taking one meaning will tell the reader the story of Ramayana (Raghava) and another meaning Mahabharata (Pandaveeyam).

IIRC, there is another kavya called "Srikrishna Raghava Pandaveeyam" which tells three stories at the same time; Bhagavatam, Ramayanam and Mahabharatam.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Aug 2011 00:25

Ganesha is the adhishtana devata for intellect. Siddhi and Buddhi are his consorts, Kshema and Labha his sons. Symbolism at work.

The western anal-sys is just that.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 19 Aug 2011 23:12

Jyotirganeshvara (Lord of the Illuminaries) is another name of Lord Vishnu, as mentioned in the Sri Vishnu Sahasranaam.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Aug 2011 02:39

Vishnu Sahasranaamam has become quite popular in recent years. the trend started in AP, especially with the Chinnajeeyar Swamy. since then, it has gone viral to a certain extent. I'm hearing even some of my North India friends learning it. very interesting.

sampat · Post by **sampat** » 20 Aug 2011 14:21

devesh wrote:Vishnu Sahasranaamam has become quite popular in recent years. the trend started in AP, especially with the Chinnajeeyar Swamy. since then, it has gone viral to a certain extent. I'm hearing even some of my North India friends learning it. very interesting.

I came to know about Vishnu Sahasranaamam while reading Sai Satcharitra. Baba used to advice his devotees to recite Vishnu Sahasranaamam.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Aug 2011 09:41

Gurus what is the explanation for suffering, I mean how does someone reconcile with a sudden illness. Context is my friend's father a very wodnerful man I have known for long, I am very confident he was not wicked or did some wrong deeds but the man got brain tumour and passed away. I was left thinking how one can explain this, made me extremely sad. The only thing i could think of is some purva janma karma but isnt it unfair to basically hold you accountable for something that you have no recollection of and punish you for that. Now this concept of purva janma paapa/punya was it invented for the general good of society i.e., if everyone starts thinking that if they do bad things they will get punished in next janma they will desist from doing it and therefore the world eventually will become a better place ?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Aug 2011 20:11

^ SuryaG garu,

My 2 cents...

I went thru tough times personally. I like the way Sumati (Dhruva's mom) explains the hardships. In modern sense this is how I summarize -

We are able to explain the cause/effect that comes within a life time, that too when things are too simple. But when we are hit by unexpected or unexplainable events (crossing multiple births - if you believe rebirth), such as serious illness or family issues etc, we get traumatized.

One way to see this (the way I treat them and tell SHQ) is that I am paying of my old debts. It is like I accumulated a large credit card debt and they send it to the collection agency. I negotiate with that agency and make a payment plan. It is difficult and painful to make those payments, but as a I pay them off I feel more and more relieved.

Once I pay off the entire loan, I shred the credit card and forget about it. Yes I do come across the Credit Card company (Bank holdings, branches etc) through out rest of my life but I do not have any enmity toward that entity. For all I know, I might get another credit card from the same bank in future.

I am at peace with myself and the environment around me.

Just because some karma (action) got me into this situation I do not denounce karma (action) altogether either. Instead I become more watchful about my deeds. Imagine how much hurt I must have caused in my previous life(s) to get such a bad karma, and that thought humbles me and makes me non-judgemental.

That makes a person to be at ease with life and society. Every bump on the road is an opportunity to pay off old debts. This is like converting one's threats into opportunities (Em-bee-Ye SWOT analysis

).

**

The alternative is to become bitter or depressed about life. Why these things happen to me and not others, thus becoming jealous about others.

Such a thought process is harmful not only to the individual but also to the society.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Aug 2011 09:05

Thanks Ramay garu, i agree with your explanation, but why punish someone for something that they havent done willingly or even have a memory of it.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 23 Aug 2011 20:34

devesh wrote:Vishnu Sahasranaamam has become quite popular in recent years. the trend started in AP, especially with the Chinnajeeyar Swamy. since then, it has gone viral to a certain extent. I'm hearing even some of my North India friends learning it. very interesting.

I once spent two hours reciting it and recording it at the same time. It was a wonderful experience.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Aug 2011 20:38

suryag wrote:Thanks Ramay garu, i agree with your explanation, but why punish someone for something that they havent done willingly or even have a memory of it.

Punish? No its not punishment, if you consider its just a learning phase on the long path of evolution of soul. Just like we have to give exams, pass, fail, pay for flunking much later, etc. similarly life is a continuous multi-cycle journey. We should not look at the temporary instance, all is a continuum towards the final culmination of a soul becoming united with the infinity, at which time, the pleasures also stop, as does the "pain".

Consider the "pain" as payment for "pleasure", all linked in life, inextricably twined, forever.

Those who want to opt "out" can, there are paths which are "short cut" to Moksha via considerable detachment. Yet a lot make this bargain of pleasure for pain. Of living the world and growing with it before it is reset forever. Till next time of course.

-------------

At a tactical level, I know of people who have taken others "pain" for their share, as a part of their humaneness as well, sometimes in widely different time periods.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Aug 2011 20:51

suryag wrote:Thanks Ramay garu, i agree with your explanation, but why punish someone for something that they havent done willingly or even have a memory of it.

There are many knowledgeable people who can give better explanations but this is my take -

In SD, the God is personification of Dharma (in Bade-saar's world the Science). He doesn't have any enemies and favorites, and no one (including the gods themselves) is an exception except the realized soul (Jeevanmukta=moksha).

Our good karma gets us Punya and bad karma Papa. If I accumulate some papa that leads to my son's death, the only difference my punya can do is whether he is killed in a slum or in a posh apartment.

What that makes us feel less/more sad is the relative value of that item. For a billionaire a loss of $100K may not be big loss but for a poor man that is his children's future. So by accumulating punya phala, we are reducing this relative impact.

On the memory, every one of us is equipped to have the memory of all our past/future lives. Bji posted a while ago on "Surya Sadhana", a technique that can increase one's ability to recollect his past janma-knowledge depending on one's soul energy levels. The same goes with the memory of future.

What happen's when one has the awareness of one's past and future is a completely different phenomenon. Once aware of the entire celluloid, the individual becomes aware of his true self; that all these action and their results are different from his true self, atma-darshana. With that knowledge (Jnana) one becomes equipoise about these joys and sorrows, thus liberated. Only then his/her entire karma phala gets erased, at the awareness level because they are detached. The body, however, might still go thru that Karma phala, like Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi or Ramakrishna Paramahamsa did even after they achieved God-realization.

My 2 naya-paisa.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Aug 2011 21:32

One perspective

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 23 Aug 2011 22:13

why punish someone for something that they havent done willingly or even have a memory of it.

Ishwar(I am not using word God) ko Paroksha Gyan Nahin hota.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Aug 2011 13:49

RamaY wrote:One perspective

I dont see that image explaning anything Dvaita or Advaita- To explain dvaita you need Jivatma and Param atma in there.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 30 Aug 2011 18:12

ramana wrote:Klaus, How is the Pisacha language article proceeding?

Ramana ji, I'm feeling the need to correlate it to migration of Rig Veda age peoples moving from 'sinking' Lothal area to early IVC settlements, Manu becoming the personification of Matsya, being a Saivite himself and becoming a Lord Krishna of the IVC peoples (Dwarka after Mathura (Lothal and sunken settlements) was left behind for good).

Another puzzle is why havent we unearthed underwater settlements in the Gulf of Mannar and lower Palk Strait, since these lands were above sea level around 16000 ybp. Was the building of the bridge in Ramayan and the founding of Rameswaram an attempt to 'rebuild over' and acknowledge these settlements?

After all, there cannot be one logic for the building of Dwarka iterations and another one for Cambay/Ceylon areas.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 30 Aug 2011 18:18

Venkarl wrote:Thanks Klausji. One more pooch...who is more powerful among Mahamatya and Mahamantri? In Chanakya series case, Mahamatya Rakshas seems to be powerful? Secret agents report to him? Mahamatya is also close to King? Mahamantri aka Prime Minister seems less powerful? Mahamantri aka Prime Minister is supposed to be more powerful no?

There is the question of power going alongside influence, also overt and covert power. In the case of the Nanda dynasty preceding Chandragupta Maurya, powerful individuals (nodes) might exert greater influence than the official position of mahamantri might be able to do or would find comfortable doing.

Chanakya's times were also emphasizing on intelligence gathering methods, it is possible that some technical detail would have been sacrificed in order to convey the message to the TV audience.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Aug 2011 19:23

Klaus wrote:
ramana wrote:Klaus, How is the Pisacha language article proceeding?
Ramana ji, I'm feeling the need to correlate it to migration of Rig Veda age peoples moving from 'sinking' Lothal area to early IVC settlements, Manu becoming the personification of Matsya, being a Saivite himself and becoming a Lord Krishna of the IVC peoples (Dwarka after Mathura (Lothal and sunken settlements) was left behind for good).

Another puzzle is why havent we unearthed underwater settlements in the Gulf of Mannar and lower Palk Strait, since these lands were above sea level around 16000 ybp. Was the building of the bridge in Ramayan and the founding of Rameswaram an attempt to 'rebuild over' and acknowledge these settlements?

After all, there cannot be one logic for the building of Dwarka iterations and another one for Cambay/Ceylon areas.

The Palk-strait bridge was above water until 8 KYBP. Most of that territory was above water almost continuously from 24 KYBP - and a substantial wide belt would also exist towards lakshadwip, and towards the TN/Andhra coast. Peak spread would be around 20 KYBP of course.

There appears to be more of ancient IVC style "harbour" traditions on the lower eastern side starting from Chilka in Orissa, to the supposed ancient one at the mouth of Kavery. Probably also more natural to expect, since the belt was wider in a continuous stretch on the east compared to the west. So a bigger cultural/economic base. This would give a possible north-south dynamic along that eastern coastal stretch - so typical in many spots on India - a kind of subregionalism trying to take control over the whole "empire" or economic base in a continuous see-saw. Andhra region therefore will be the contact point of struggle between the two.

There seems to be a south-west Bengal connection or origin myths for the Ayodhya regime - from Sagar, and Shakol Dwipa - probably a region in the south-western delta in the dry peak ice age period.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Aug 2011 19:29

^^Also there could be an even earlier dynamic that kept on. The Toba eruption is supposed to have made the Andhra salient uninhabitable for millenia. The humans living around the 70 KYBP would be split into two groups based onw hich side of the Andhra salient they fell. These two groups later on back migrated to occupy the area again - but that would be after almost about 5 KY. There seems to have been some degree of male-portion replacement in the deep south between 45-55 KYBP. thus a kind of conflict from back migration could have been persistent around the Andhra centre for a long time. The "Aryan-Dravidian" myth could have been based on a vague civilizational memory of a much earlier conflict which had nothing to do with the west.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 31 Aug 2011 01:05

brihaspati wrote:

There seems to be a south-west Bengal connection or origin myths for the Ayodhya regime - from Sagar, and Shakol Dwipa - probably a region in the south-western delta in the dry peak ice age period.

Is there greater detail about this in the 60000 sons of Sagar and Bhagirath stories or myths?

Another question on a probably unrelated note, was there a "Bacchic" tradition in India, the most famous example being the final self-destruction of the Yadavas just before the deluge at Dwarka?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 31 Aug 2011 02:15

Klaus wrote:
brihaspati wrote:

There seems to be a south-west Bengal connection or origin myths for the Ayodhya regime - from Sagar, and Shakol Dwipa - probably a region in the south-western delta in the dry peak ice age period.
Is there greater detail about this in the 60000 sons of Sagar and Bhagirath stories or myths?

Another question on a probably unrelated note, was there a "Bacchic" tradition in India, the most famous example being the final self-destruction of the Yadavas just before the deluge at Dwarka?

The 60,000 could be an encoding for a different number. More on that later. But it does indicate a migration after the region was initially desertified or dried up - and the Sagarites harvested/drained the remaining water into irrigation and drained the marshy delta region for agriculture. This was the symbolic ref to drinking up of the "sea". Then when water levels rose - "sea was released" - they migrated up the GV, and settled around the Ayodhya region. At that period, the Munger gap would be a narrow outlet along the Ganges - Bihar would still be highly forested and relatively narrow as a plain. Need to know when the UP region turned swampy. Leave this with me.

About Bachchic tradition - mys suspicion is that intoxicants were known very early on. Even the Vedics refer to it. But look at the origin narratives. Even the samudra-manthan yielded "riches". Laksmi emerged - which could also mean that when sea-retreated land could be reclaimed that was relatively free of large trees, and would be easier to cultivate over time as salinity reduced. Heavy forests would be a deterrent for agriculture before metals were widespread. Or that people did live out in the sea - on offshore islands, and landlubbers began to intermarry when they became prosperous enough on coastal real estate.

But more importantly - immediately after the manthana, with the "amrita", the team began feasting and drinking. Could refer to an ancient marine civilizations ritual around harvesting the products of the sea/marine trade.

Manthana could of course be a later allegory representing what people thought was a ocean wide tossing and turning [breaking up of the lauerntide ice sheet?] in which two early branches of humanity collaborated for survival. It could be about possessing an even more ancient sea-based/island based maritime advanced culture and its knowledge base. One of the branches managed to possess both the wealth - Lakshmi of these maritime cultures - and also the knowledge base - the "amrita".

The branches that were conformist to ritual traditions, lost out.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 31 Aug 2011 08:28

Fot people interested in Telugu litarature etc visit blog sahithyabhimani ( ckeck spelling) at blog spot. good collection of Cortoons also there. best of the Telug cortoons like Jaya dev etc.

Cooming back to suferring Lord Vishnu says in Bhagavatham ( Potana translation.) that he will steal all the wealth of the people who he wish to bless. It may sound contradictory. But think of the real importence of of the things we are getting connected and whose loss we fear and without whom we can not live and suffer. We will know that the Lord is right.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Aug 2011 09:00

Narayana you were rightly named!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Aug 2011 09:27

This is why Lord is called Hari!!

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 31 Aug 2011 09:38

suryag wrote:Gurus what is the explanation for suffering, I mean how does someone reconcile with a sudden illness. Context is my friend's father a very wodnerful man I have known for long, I am very confident he was not wicked or did some wrong deeds but the man got brain tumour and passed away. I was left thinking how one can explain this, made me extremely sad. The only thing i could think of is some purva janma karma but isnt it unfair to basically hold you accountable for something that you have no recollection of and punish you for that. Now this concept of purva janma paapa/punya was it invented for the general good of society i.e., if everyone starts thinking that if they do bad things they will get punished in next janma they will desist from doing it and therefore the world eventually will become a better place ?

many many years ago, my sister met a road accident on highway while going to school. a truck ran her over and her thigh-bone was crushed into many pieces. now she is recovered, married and have kids, but then it seemed she may not live, it was a slow but miraculous recovery. it was a sudden suffering for her and for us. She was crossing the road when a traffic signal was right. All vehicle are supposed to stop when traffic signal is red. All of them were obeying this rule. Suddenly a drunk truck driver came from nowhere and crushed her when she was crossing the road. If it were her mistake while disobeying the traffic rules, it would have been different. But here she was obeying the traffic rules. She had chosen to be safe. She tried everything in human limits to be safe and yet she had this destiny. for no fault of hers, she suffered, why? this was the question in my mind then...

many friends wrote to me. here are few responses which personally soothed me and hence I have preserve them. They are from Buddhist, carvaka and ajivika point of view and are hence completely atheistic. But Indic nonetheless. I am typing some of them out here.

1.

the Buddha says that reality is ultimately beyond our control.

The alternative is to wrap one's self in cotton wool and to never venture outside but that incurs and reinforces its own karma; unending fear.

As I remember, the sooth saying astrologer who read the infant Siddhartha Gautama stars gave options. He was to be a King OR become the liberator of mankind. The sooth sayer couldn't say which leads me to believe that predestination is iffy at best.

As St. Augustine of Hippo said: "Love and do what ye will."

2.

All that we are is the result of what we have thought.
It is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts.
If one speaks or acts with an evil thought pain follows them
as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the wagon.

Dhammapada, 1

and,

Mind is the forerunner of all states.
Mind is chief. Mind made are they.
If one speaks or acts with a pure mind,
because of that, happiness follows one
even as one’s shadow that never leaves.

Dhammapada, 2

3.

However, we can think of a person becoming a Buddha like a person taking a journey from one place to another. During the journey, he may decided to take a detour, stop for rest, meet people or enjoy the scenery, or any other things he may felt like doing. But when the destination is within his reach, then there won't be any reason for him to do anything else but to complete that journey.

Prince Siddhartha was the last life of the Buddha. Buddhahood was already within his reach, there was nothing else for him to do, besides completing that journey.

Is it a subconscious choice? Perhaps, but from what I read, Prince Siddhartha made a conscious decision to pursue a life of spiritual cultivation. He made this decision with full knowledge that he would be giving up his princely title, the kingdom that he may one day inherit and his family. He knew fully well, he would be living as a recluse, live by begging from others - He made that choice consciously.

The only thing that differ him from others, was perhaps, his inclination or insight that somehow built into him (inherit through his past lives perhaps), that was something in this life that was unsatisfactory. Is this free will? My understanding of free will is the ability to make a decision. I don't think we can view them as free will. They are just part of his characters that will ultimately contribute to his free will.

4.

We are being governed by the laws of probability. These would be the range of probabilities in case of your sister, something which would have changed the picture: perhaps she would not have found the dress that she wanted to wear while going out and searching for it might have delayed her to reach the point of accident. By that time the truckwallah would have crossed the point of accident and smashed into the shop opposite it. When your sister would have arrived at that point, there would only be a bicycle wallah to greet her at that point. Or perhaps a disturbance in the city might have necessiated the police to impose curfew in the area and your sister might not have been able to come to that crossing. Or perhaps it was a Tuesday and the liquor shops in the area might have been closed and the truck driver might not have been able to get liquor. Or perhaps a relative may have offered her a lift and she might have crossed the point of accident before the truckwallah arrived there. Or that she might have become interested in a item in a shop window delaying her in reaching point of accident. Or perhaps she might have sprained her ankle a block away from that point (a different accident). I can mention a million different scenarios. All these were possible and one of them actually happened. Pre-destined, no, because I do not believe in any agency which could do so, I do not believe in God or Karma, or an accountant in the seventh sky with a Compaq or a Dell.

Free-will, meaningless. There are a million possibilities, again governed by chance. I might not be writing this reply though I may have wanted to do so if my wife had sent me on some errand, or my son might have wanted to play 'RoadRash' on the computer, or that supply of electricity may have been disrupted in my area, or if an interesting cricket match was being shown on the Television at this very time. 'Free-will' also is a mirage.

It is unfortunate that Buddhist have come up with various complicated theories about Karma instead of a simple practical theory of life that Buddha may have wanted. I find it difficult to accept that Buddha really thought that way.

5.

Wish her well XXXX and if you think it helps any, tell her this guy XXXX, has had a broken right ankle, a broken left knee, a broken right femur and a broken right hip all before he was 30 and he is still OK today. Of course I had nobody else to blame and that may have been a plus for me. So yes, this is tragic and that deserves my respect.

With regard to you question I would say a definite NO if by destiny you mean something like Moksha.

As for all the rest? Yes we do have a choice and we do have some input in our choices which is not to say that we are free to chose because, for one, our choices are limited to the choice available, and also, we are determined in making this choice by our subconscious [non-rational] mind wherein we are divided with our conscious mind when making a choice.

I am always a dualist until we reach Moksha for the simple reason that we have a subconscious mind (a soul) until we reach Moskha.

My personal understanding is based on nirishwar-vaadi saamkhya and yoga schools..

The case of your father's friend was case of death by disease and the cause of this effect wasn't extrinsic but systemic. Every jeeva is combination of Purusha and Prakriti of three flavours in distinct proportion. it is the precise proportion of these three characteristics (known as "guna") which determines the "Prakriti" of a jeeva.

there are many dimensions of "I" (from aatman to outwards ahamkara-buddhi-mind-senses-body-family-jaati-rashtra-humanity-earth-brahman) all these are different dimensions of "I". All these dimensions are comprised of particular combination the three gunas in particular ratio. the food we need, habitat we live, genes we have, habits we have, people we interact all have the effect on this particular combination of gunas (on "body" level, these constitute the "tridosha" (kapha-pitta-vaata)). The balance of these triads is what keeps life going. imbalance leads to disease which leads to system breakdown after a limit. imbalance is caused by either our actions or actions/characteristics of those entities with whom we interact (people, food, basically everything non-self).

sometimes we hate some one's company since being with him makes us sad OR bored OR irritated. But it is necessary since he is our boss. So we choose to override the comforts of "I" on mind level to meet the needs or comforts of "I" on body and family level (boss pays you, so you eat). While you have eaten due to this, the sanskaras on your "I" as mind has remained and accumulated. if they are not removed, they accumulate and distort the structure of "self" as that uneven load-bearing starts affecting other compartments. this is what today we refer to as stress.

The tumor which happened to your acquaintance was part of his "prakriti" combination (genes) with which his "purusha" was born. Who chose this combination? two explanations, chance OR cumulative karma. With the genes he had, they were programmed to go cancerous after a particular age. may be much earlier but the actions of that jeeva on other dimensions of his "I" compensated for this and delayed the expression. Or may bee they were programmed to go cancerous later, but certain actions of that jeeva on other dimensions of "I" preponed this expression.

It is vector sum of actions our inherent prakriti on all dimensions. to a rakshak, the analogy is power of engine (action/karma) does not determine the behaviour and capabilities of aircraft. GE414 engine is in gripen, f-18, tejas. But all of them behave differently owing to differences in their airframe (prakriti) and decisions of pilot (choices). The airframe of mig-21, for example, cannot carry our the maneuvers which modern war-tactics of IAF demand or weapons which are carried, as efficiently as say Su-30 OR mirage or jaguar. thus, with time the prakriti of mig has become incompatible with choices of pilot. The prakriti does not cooperate with choice Jeeva wishes to make. a newbie driving a ferari is as inefficient as schumacher driving tata-nano. there has to be an equilibrium and harmony between trigunaatmaka prakriti (body/frame/matter), Purusha (energy/power/life-force/engine) and Ichhaa (desire) of "I" on all levels. This dynamic harmony is health, this harmony is "sukha".

Combination of these three on all levels of "I" result in a resultant vector sum, which call as "life-experience". And death does not end it, moksha does..

How many levels of "I"?

सहस्त्र शीर्ष पुरुष:सहस्त्राक्ष: सहस्त्र पात:
स्भुमिम विश्वतो वृत्वा अत्यातिष्ठत दशान्गुलम..

Thousands of heads has purusha. Thousands of eyes has he, and thousands of legs. He pervades this entire "existence" and beyond.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 31 Aug 2011 17:13

brihaspati wrote:
Manthana could of course be a later allegory representing what people thought was a ocean wide tossing and turning [breaking up of the lauerntide ice sheet?] in which two early branches of humanity collaborated for survival. It could be about possessing an even more ancient sea-based/island based maritime advanced culture and its knowledge base. One of the branches managed to possess both the wealth - Lakshmi of these maritime cultures - and also the knowledge base - the "amrita".

Agastya and Durvasa come to mind here, the former having played a role in "drinking up the sea" (could be the glaciation of Tibet and Pamir Knot), the latter being one of the causes of the Manthan. Also somewhat corroborates "myths" and theories about Trivikrama and Narasimha.

brihaspati wrote: These two groups later on back migrated to occupy the area again - but that would be after almost about 5 KY. There seems to have been some degree of male-portion replacement in the deep south between 45-55 KYBP. thus a kind of conflict from back migration could have been persistent around the Andhra centre for a long time. The "Aryan-Dravidian" myth could have been based on a vague civilizational memory of a much earlier conflict which had nothing to do with the west.

The post Toba population bottleneck hypothesis does talk about this, however the difficulty would be to find a definitive spike, not in pop rise within that window but the reduction in the size of the gene pool (in layman terms). I also find Australoid based sub-groups such as the Veddas might hold the answer to this but are sometimes shown as reluctant and passively aggressive participants.

Aside: It is also time to set the record straight on Lemuria, it is more applicable to ice-age South-East Asian landmass than the Indian coastline.