The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 24 Aug 2011 18:51

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14642578

Mr Hazare, 74, has also refused doctors' advice to be put on an intravenous drip to help him rehydrate.

"Until now, the government's intentions are not good. So I have decided until my last breath, until the government gives in to this issue, I will not turn back. I don't care even if I die," he told his followers who have gathered at Ramlila grounds in Delhi to support his fast.

In a letter addressed to Mr Hazare on Tuesday, the prime minister said he was committed to drawing up the best possible law, and to do it as quickly as possible.

Mr Singh also asked his Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee to negotiate with the activists.

After the first round of talks with Mr Mukherjee, aides of Mr Hazare told reporters that it would be difficult to persuade the activist to give up his fast unless the government "tabled, discussed and passed in this session of parliament" a strong anti-corruption bill.

"If required the parliament session should be extended [to facilitate the passage of the bill]," Mr Hazare's aides said.

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 24 Aug 2011 18:52

Another flip flop by the opposition. No wonder kangress can get away with what the hell they want in politics given the quality of their opponents.

BJP disassociates itself from Advani's poll demand

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 390268.ece

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Aug 2011 18:56

sunnyP wrote:Another flip flop by the opposition. No wonder kangress can get away with what the hell they want in politics given the quality of their opponents.

BJP disassociates itself from Advani's poll demand

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 390268.ece

It is better the Self claimed Prime Minister in waiting retires, he is a huge liability now.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Aug 2011 19:03

Rudradev, Good analysis. The decades of interactions between US and Indian elites going back to pre-Independence shows that US ideas will get implemented by the elite if they feel its their own thought.
Bji is right. For quite some time since UPA I consolidated there was a trend of highlighting/showing Indian corruption :Transparency International etc, etc.

Try to see whats common between Ambedkar, JP Narayan, Bhabhani Sengupta et al.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Aug 2011 19:18

Philip wrote: Unfortuantely,the dam has burst as far as the Indian populace is concerned and country-wide protests against misgovernance and malfeasance will be the order of the day.

I am glad Anna made people aware about going to MPs bungalows and protest. This should be remembered.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 24 Aug 2011 19:20

If the following are the difference then I think Jan Lokpal should be adopted by the government. It is sad that the government is trying to protect the criminals and punish the public.

http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs?tid=55928 ... 6347&hl=en

Difference between Lokpal Bill and Jan Lokpal Bill
Here are some of the points raised by Hazare’s group:

1. The government Bill provides for nothing to recover ill-gotten wealth. A corrupt politician or bureaucrat can come out of jail and enjoy the money. The Jan Lokpal Bill seeks to recover from the accused the loss caused to the government due to corruption. It also increases punishment for the corrupt from a minimum of six months and a maximum of seven years to a minimum of five years and a maximum of life imprisonment.

2. The Jan Lokpal Bill seeks to empower the Lokpal to initiate probe suo motu and directly entertain public complaints. The government Bill requires complaints to be routed through the Speaker and the Rajya Sabha Chairperson.

3. The government Bill makes the Lokpal only an advisory body, vesting powers in the Prime Minister for action on its reports against cabinet ministers and in Parliament for action against the Prime Minister and MPs. The Jan Lokpal Bill gives the Lokpal powers to initiate prosecution after completing investigations. It also gives the Lokpal police powers to register FIRs, proceed with criminal investigations and launch prosecution.

4. It would be impossible for the Prime Minister to act against a cabinet minister on the basis of the Lokpal's report due to the compulsion of coalition politics. It gives the example of former telecom minister A Raja.

5. The Jan Lokpal Bill proposes merger of the Central Vigilance Commission with a part of the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) to create a single point of investigation in cases of corruption. The government Bill proposes to take away powers from the CBI to investigate politicians, thereby insulating them from investigations.

6. The government Bill gives power to the Lokpal to send to jail through summary trial anybody filing false and frivolous complaints, but it does not give the Lokpal power to send corrupt politicians to jail.

More analytical study of the difference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbmvRB5Wibc

habal · Post by **habal** » 24 Aug 2011 19:27

Now this is beginning to look more like Egypt before Hosni was overthrown. The same stubornness on part of the egyptian authorities under Hosni is visible under Manmohan Singh as well. Replace Tahrir Square with Ramlila Ground.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Aug 2011 19:48

We need to stop scoring own goals. We are not a dictatorship like Egypt.

It is obvious ending corruption is no longer the priority of this movement. It wishes to bring down or vote out the government. Which is very much a legitimate program. But the organizers should not pretend other wise. At this point it can not become a mass movement. It is doomed to remain on the margins till 2014 when the people can give their verdict. Even that is not going to end corruption.

Which is a pity, an anti-corruption movement has managed to divide the country. Never thought I'd see the day.

Normally I would brush off the western influence over anti-corruption as just another CT, but it is getting more intriguing. The coverage in massaland on TV is all about how American companies struggle with corruption in India. Has the Indian middle class subconsciously absorbed this lesson and now is waging a battle on the behalf of western corporations? This is the same middle class that refused to wait in line for 6 months for a gas connection like everyone else and would literally shove money at people to get a connection right away.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 24 Aug 2011 19:53

I for one will be the last one to shed a tear for democracy if this gobarmaund is booted out of power by the forces unleashed by anna 1000-e movement.

asdharia · Post by **asdharia** » 24 Aug 2011 19:53

If jan lokpal does come in effect, I am thinking first few yrs will be tough for all of us including the politicians and the general ppl. The reason being were so used to living this life without law, enter a no entry, if caught pay 20Rs get out. Travel without tkts, if caught pay tc move on. For businesses dont pay sales tax, water tax, labor unions ...just pay the officers and move on. So this is going to be tough. My take is that the bureaucrats are going to make our life tough for first few yrs since their source of income will stop. So they will try to break the common man into submitting to corruption. But its a game of who blinks first. We will need to think of a plan to break this and I think that is as imp is just getting the Jan Lokpal to be passed. If we can hold off that attack, then its a real victory, as that is going to be a long drawn and difficult battle, and each one of us will have to get the resolve of Anna, only then we can fight this menace. With time hopefully things will improve and if the countries management realises that they are loosing, we can get them to mentally accept Jan Lokpal. This is not just a fight for a law, this fight has to be a fight of psyche, mentality and culture. The problem is corruption is not due to just the present govt, is a systematic brainwashing that was going on for the past 60 years. We will need time and resolve to fight this. All the best to all of us.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 24 Aug 2011 19:59

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 723065.cms

Anna Hazare will break his nine-day-old fast if Prime Minister Manmohan Singh tables the Jan Lokpal bill in Parliament on Thursday, Team Anna member Arvind Kejriwal said on Wednesday.

"If the Prime Minister is concerned about Anna's health, he should table the Jan Lokpal Bill tomorrow in Parliament and Anna will break his fast. If anything happens to Anna Hazare, the government will be responsible for that," said Arvind Kejriwal at the Ramlila Maidan after the all-party meeting on the Lokpal Bill ended here.

"On Aug 15, the Prime Minister in his address to the nation said that some people want to create problems in this country. And on Aug 16, Anna Hazare was arrested on the pretext that his being out can create problems. Now, the Prime Minister is worried about his health," he said.

Meanwhile, Anna Hazare earlier in the day said he could fast for another nine days.

"My fast has entered the ninth day. Nothing will happen to me. I can fast for another nine days. We will fight together," he told the gathering at Ramlila Maidan. The statement by the 74-year-old Gandhian was greeted by loud applause and cheers by his supporters.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Aug 2011 20:03

ASD,
+1

This is exactly right. Our society itself is corrupted and needs reform. Only that will end corruption. How come none of our leaders including AH mentions this.

IIRC correctly the first thing AH did at Ralegaon was to completely reform the social structure there. He eliminated caste distinctions, lowered gender discrimination, stopped the marriage cow market esp. dowry and completely transformed the society there. This is what proved successful as people then could be put to work cooperatively. All this without changing a single law.

It baffles me that he would forget all this the moment he hits the national stage.

To date the less corrupted portions of India are the ones that have been through more social reform. The places with no reform, BIMARU states, are easily factors of magnitude worse in terms of corruption. But no one wants to learn this lesson.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 24 Aug 2011 20:04

Mahendra wrote:I for one will be the last one to shed a tear for democracy if this gobarmaund is booted out of power by the forces unleashed by anna 1000-e movement.

I am for 1000's of people storming the Parliament in session and the event being broadcasted in world media. I hope no body gets hurt but even if some corrupt MP's bites dust, I would only say "regrettable"!

habal · Post by **habal** » 24 Aug 2011 20:07

Democracy is a rule by commons. We (as in India) are ruled by civil servants & politicians. I don't make any rules and neither have I heard of any other colleagues, neighbours or countrymen making rules. Commons are definitely not calling the shots nor are they the ones makin the rules. They are only meekly obeying rules set and manipulated by civil servants, desk ke sewaks, MNC corporates (they wish to occupy both former positiosn in immidiate future, but thats another debate).

btw the powerhead Sonia is in a foreign country, in a foreign hospital, and thus by co-relation could be held hostage by foreign powers. Her minions in India are not capable of providing leadership. Now let's analyse who all have been making loudest noises in her absence. P. Chidambaram, Kapil Sibal, (the lawyers who stonewall any attempt at raprochment) Manmohan Singh all characters who have been accused in past of close associations with western interests. If one is tempted to connect dots that could lead towards a conspiracy, then one shouldn't begrudge them that pleasure. Considering that these worthies waited for Sonia to decamp to a western country to begin their operations towards Indian spring, it makes me suspiscious if matters are as they seem and it is just a question of misgovernance/absent governance or there is something deeper.

The only person who could be a casualty in all of this is poor man Anna Hazare,

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 24 Aug 2011 20:12

A lot can be speculated about how things will get tough for aam aadmi after the bill gets implemented, we won't know for sure till the bill is passed and implemented.

If the aam aadmi's life gets more miserable than what it is now, I'm sure aam aadmis will join Kalmadi's fast for the bill to be withdrawn.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 24 Aug 2011 20:17

Pranay wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 723065.cms

Anna Hazare will break his nine-day-old fast if Prime Minister Manmohan Singh tables the Jan Lokpal bill in Parliament on Thursday, Team Anna member Arvind Kejriwal said on Wednesday.

"If the Prime Minister is concerned about Anna's health, he should table the Jan Lokpal Bill tomorrow in Parliament and Anna will break his fast. If anything happens to Anna Hazare, the government will be responsible for that," said Arvind Kejriwal at the Ramlila Maidan after the all-party meeting on the Lokpal Bill ended here.

"On Aug 15, the Prime Minister in his address to the nation said that some people want to create problems in this country. And on Aug 16, Anna Hazare was arrested on the pretext that his being out can create problems. Now, the Prime Minister is worried about his health," he said.

Meanwhile, Anna Hazare earlier in the day said he could fast for another nine days.

"My fast has entered the ninth day. Nothing will happen to me. I can fast for another nine days. We will fight together," he told the gathering at Ramlila Maidan. The statement by the 74-year-old Gandhian was greeted by loud applause and cheers by his supporters.

Pranay-ji

Our PM-ji is presently hosting an Iftaar Party, all the membranes of parliament are present!

Fast? What Fast? Who is Anna?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 24 Aug 2011 20:20

Surprise Surprise!

Aruna Roy of NCPRI visits Anna

Roy, a National Advisory Council (NAC) member, met the Gandhian along with her associates.

"We are concerned about Anna. We have old links with him," Roy told reporters here. It was Roy's first meeting with Hazare after he began his indefinite fast on August 16.

Team Anna member Prashant Bhushan said Roy is a well-wisher of Hazare and had come to meet him.

Roy had recently criticised Hazare for "deriding" democratic institutions and alleged that he was "ill-advised".

http://www.timesnow.tv/A-mix-at-Ramlila ... 382127.cms

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 24 Aug 2011 20:20

Democracy means zerrow! people like Mulayam and Sharad Pawar have been defence ministers in the past, it is near impossible for the aam admi to fight and win an election. In other words, a vast majority of us democracy is like watching doordarshan package, you can only select a channel they offer. So let us please stop shedding tears for democracy and democratic institutions. It is common knowledge that the highest per-capita concentration of corrupt people in the world is in the joint session of lok and rajya sabha.
While I am not advocating rebellion and over throw of the gobarmaund of the day all I am saying is that what ever Anna's motivations are and who ever his backers are, the constant use of the term undemocratic struggle to belittle the movement doesn't quite make sense because we are a very less than perfect democracy.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Aug 2011 20:23

Folks; lets not make things bad by comparing India with any other tin pot Arab countries, thats self goal, neither third rate east european kleptocracy.

And enough whining, India has lot of strenght, we are seeing a fraction of it in action.

A 9 day+ period with over a lakh people out on street on 4-5 major cities, COMPELETELY peacefully.

Lets celebrate India for a change. Does not matter who started it, who is right, who is wrong.

India shows what it can do. Let our enemies (including those in govt) dhoti shiver for a change.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Aug 2011 20:29

Mahendra wrote:Democracy means zerrow! ...... So let us please stop shedding tears for democracy and democratic institutions....

It often seems India remains democratic because of the destitute poor who worship it. They experience voting as a religious experience. Left to the middle class democracy in India would probably die on the vine.

Democracy is a means of governance. It does not exist to end corruption.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 24 Aug 2011 20:36

Sirji, you are making sweeping assumptions about the "middle class" and their stake in democracy. Middle class in itself is very poorly defined with many outliners.
I'm sure Sanku ji will bail me out on this

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 24 Aug 2011 20:43

Sanku wrote:Folks; lets not make things bad by comparing India with any other tin pot Arab countries, thats self goal, neither third rate east european kleptocracy.

And enough whining, India has lot of strenght, we are seeing a fraction of it in action.

A 9 day+ period with over a lakh people out on street on 4-5 major cities, COMPELETELY peacefully.

Lets celebrate India for a change. Does not matter who started it, who is right, who is wrong.

India shows what it can do. Let our enemies (including those in govt) dhoti shiver for a change.

+ 100

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Aug 2011 20:49

One thing this debate is reminding me of is the Republican/Democratic deadlock in massaland.

Politics in India is very definitely evolving in that direction with the right wing shrilly and the left wing media types demonizing anything that opposes them from traitor to anti-national to non-Indian. This coarsening is likely to lead to more damage and more social polarization.

For the first time I'm seeing a clear middle class refusal to accept input from lower groupings. Used to be if the the communities lower down said this is the way it will be, the middle class would protest but would slowly accept the verdict. I'm now seeing a refusal to accept the verdict even. Society is being set up for a longer term violent confrontation. Similar to what Venezuela is going through.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Aug 2011 20:50

if you change the babucracy in the way police are being changed - ie they keep a %age of fines - to a model where babu's can make a legitimate bonus by doing a good job - and their income can rise, then we might see a much higher level of good governance in india. corruption will never go away entirely, but if we can reduce it - and remove some of the social disparities that it has created then there will be progress

i was shaken down by a cop not so long ago in mumbai, he basically wanted a piece of the pie he thought i had - his need was greed, but a greed to get the standard of living that was screaming at him from every bill board and television set

india shining did not deal with this problem

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 24 Aug 2011 20:52

this is about corruption in transactions between 1.5 crore people who are govt employees and the remaining 98.5 crore who are not. ideally all the 100 crores are honest, but such a population does not exist anywhere. in anycase, to get the moral compass of all the people in world aligned in one direction is the job of prophets and not mere mortals. that since we are all corrupt, this all drama, to me looks like an irrational argument. what mortals can do is that which is rational and tangible - to force the 1.5 crore to do the right thing in most cases, irrespective of their moral convictions.

two broad categories of corruption: 1) where what i want to do something illegal, and bribe the govt employee to accept it, 2) where what i want to do is legal, but the govt employee wants me to pay him to do it.

JLP is prolly going to ease the burdens on common people with respect to the second type. The first type is prolly going to proceed as before.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 24 Aug 2011 20:52

Theo_Fidel wrote: It baffles me that he would forget all this the moment he hits the national stage.

A small village and a big nation are not the same. It is like saying India should be able to do everything Singapore or Athens did. There are some lessons, no doubt, that can be brought. He first won the villagers heart by contributing his own money and helping revitalize the temple. Then using existing government funds and free village labor he went on to tackle the water problem. Success leads to success they say. The village follows the sabha form of governance to make decisions. Sabha is an age-old Indic organizational and decision making body. So if you were AH's adviser how would you have advised him?

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 24 Aug 2011 20:54

theo what are you referring to when you say middle class refusal to accept input from lower groupings?

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 24 Aug 2011 21:26

Guys, we are heading for a problem! Govt. has hardened its stand, and according to Kejriwaal (just heard in Times NOW), said something like "...Anna can fast if he wants to..."

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 24 Aug 2011 21:27

http://live.indiatimes.com/default.cms?timesnow=1

Live - The government has hardened its' stand - saying - Anna's fast is his prerogative.... Lots of fireworks ahead...

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 24 Aug 2011 21:31

Jeez! Its almost as if they want conflagration and chaos

Kiran Bedi said something changed in the govt mood between yesterday and today, a total flip!! She asks what could have happened?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Aug 2011 21:36

Expect a RAF action tonight. They are asking Anna to go die.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 24 Aug 2011 21:37

sumishi wrote:Jeez! Its almost as if they want conflagration and chaos Kiran Bedi said something changed in the govt mood between yesterday and today, a total flip!! She asks what could have happened?

I have been watching Indian media very carefully for the past 48 hours and I must say something very serious has happened in the last 2 or 3 hours. I have no idea but it is something very serious.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Aug 2011 21:38

This is the time when BJP could play its cards. Like pointing out how badly congress has handled situation, that how it is only the conparty and not opposition who are against the movement, that opposition was cheated and kept out of the process by the ruling party, then supporting AHji etc.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Aug 2011 21:41

vishvak wrote:This is the time when BJP could play its cards. Like pointing out how badly congress has handled situation, that how it is only the conparty and not opposition who are against the movement, that opposition was cheated and kept out of the process by the ruling party, then supporting AHji etc.

The issue started AFTER BJP played its card and came out in open support of Anna Hazare.

The penny has dropped. Congress was waiting for BJP to expose its stand and then hit. This was the real game.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Aug 2011 21:41

Mahendra wrote: I'm sure Sanku ji will bail me out on this

I am with you on this one boss, but I think the story is moving quite fast. Emergency?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 24 Aug 2011 21:44

May be INC want to send a message that let the fasting guy die. I think that will be historical. It will stop all blackmailing using fasts.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 24 Aug 2011 21:47

My 2 cents - Just as the PM has one on one meetings with foreign leaders - why not, in the interest of the country have a one on one with Anna Hazare on the dais at Ramlila Grounds - flesh out the differences and do the Right thing.

Taking that initiative will do wonders to the PM's shattered credibility and sideline the forked tongued lawyers he has surrounded himself with...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Aug 2011 21:48

Pranay wrote: in the interest of the country .

=====================

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Aug 2011 21:49

Muppalla wrote:May be INC want to send a message that let the fasting guy die. I think that will be historical. It will stop all blackmailing using fasts.

Sanjay Jha on Headlines Today:"It is responsibility of Kejriwal & Kiran Bedi if Anna's health deteriorates".

So what happens to the JLPBill now?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 24 Aug 2011 21:50

There is actually nothing to talk with Anna. MMS has two options (1) surrender and pass Lokpal as asked by Anna (2) Leave Anna to die.