The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Patni · Post by **Patni** » 25 Aug 2011 00:16

The real battle lines are now emerging and its between corrupt establishment that has got too cozy and feels its not answerable or is insensitive towards need for continual improvement in quality of life of its people through good governance. Indian people have been badly let down so far, as is evident from low governance index in all major counts. Accountability has been deliberately and over the decades allowed to weaken and get diluted by ensuring very poor speed of prosecution and deliverance of justice. The new generation is more vocal and gives indication of being result oriented and much more confident in believing in its collective destiny! Overall personally I am very glad that Annaji has acted as a catalyst and seems to have fired up right kind of passion in people of India from all walk of life. Things will get better now that the political class have seen public outpouring of strong support to anti-corruption movement Serious attempts are needed to arrest the down slide of governance and this anna movement is a good start.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Aug 2011 00:19

Like MUTU, and MPTP, we have MBTB (corrupted babu) aam juntas. This will kill the meek, and make sure the power play baboze continues to take money on corruption.

People need to raise to a level to feel that desh is theirs, and parties and politicians are neech class if they are corrupt, or anything above themselves.

By the people.... is not happening. They are thinking we have a strong setup.. nope!

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 25 Aug 2011 01:16

Looks like MMS and his gang are waiting for Anna to die.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 25 Aug 2011 01:43

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 25 Aug 2011 01:48

Uttam wrote:What is so sacrosanct about "parliamentary democracy"? What is the ultimate goal of a government elected by the people?

The issue is that the IAC movement is not calling for a change in the parliamentary democracy, rather it is trying to force something through the back door. As long as the constitution exists in the current form, Parliament will be the supreme legislative body and politicians will have to support it.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 25 Aug 2011 01:52

But politicians have no qualms about doing sashthang namsakar to the extra-constitutional Maino advisory committee

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 25 Aug 2011 02:00

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 726429.cms

A police complaint was lodged against Bollywood star Salman Khan and his bodyguards after they allegedly thrashed anti-corruption activists who wanted the actor to join their agitation.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 25 Aug 2011 02:06

vera_k wrote:
Uttam wrote:What is so sacrosanct about "parliamentary democracy"? What is the ultimate goal of a government elected by the people?
The issue is that the IAC movement is not calling for a change in the parliamentary democracy, rather it is trying to force something through the back door. As long as the constitution exists in the current form, Parliament will be the supreme legislative body and politicians will have to support it.

The only time the political class of this country remembers the constitution is when they are in trouble. Otherwise, these idots don't give a damn about constitution. What they are interested in is power and how to abuse that power to make money for themselves and their nalayak children.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 25 Aug 2011 02:07

vera_k wrote:
The issue is that the IAC movement is not calling for a change in the parliamentary democracy, rather it is trying to force something through the back door. As long as the constitution exists in the current form, Parliament will be the supreme legislative body and politicians will have to support it.

Change in the parliament can only be brought about by changing the electoral system. Changing the electoral system from one where only the elite and the rich are given the opportunity to represent themselves in the parliament to a much more inclusive and representative system is necessary. One should ponder over why in the current state, a person like Rahul Gandhi with no previous political experience is at such an advantage to win an election (and is given so much media attention) over a person from some slum who also wants to represent his people in the parliament? Why is it that you need crores of rupees in order to win an election?

Our electoral system is broken and until that can be fixed, a selected group of political elites will continue to rule our nation and the parliament will not be a true representative of the people of India as claimed by our politicians. When they say that the Jan Lokpal bill will compromise the democratic process, what they actually mean is that it will threaten their authoritarian political structure that exists in the country today.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 25 Aug 2011 02:16

sourab_c wrote: Our electoral system is broken and until that can be fixed, a selected group of political elites will continue to rule our nation and the parliament will not be a true representative of the people of India as claimed by our politicians. When they say that the Jan Lokpal bill will compromise the democratic process, what they actually mean is that it will threaten their authoritarian political structure that exists in the country today.

How could it be broken Sir. Its perfect like the congress party and like our constitution which is protected by 150+ criminals in LokShabha.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 25 Aug 2011 02:21

What happened to Baba Ramdev? he seems to be curiously quiet...

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 02:27

SaiK wrote:BJP f-ed this whole thing up.. they could not get anna on to their likings. They will face dark matter soon.

I pray anna start a new party, and get this settled... he gets 2/3rd majority, of course without booth capturing and the electronic fraud votes onlee.

BJP's failure of coming out in open and strong support of Anna Sb is one of the biggest blunders that Hindus have committed in their history- another Hindu self goal. When you brush aside all the apologies and obfuscation blind BJP supporters will make, what you have in the end is a party that fittingly represents the bulk of the Hindu population of today - weak, dhoti shivering, cowardly, stupid, idiotic and totally devoid of any sense of self respect, masquerading every blunder as "Chanakyan", not to mention treacherous, too clever by half and always second guessing everything to self-defeat.

Poor Chanakya, good thing he got cremated, otherwise he would be turning in his grave, witnessing all the stupid and moronic things Hindus are doing today and attributing it to "Chankyanism".

Although, I must say here, that Anna Sab and company's lack of clear and strong support of Babaji also could be categorized almost in the same category.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 25 Aug 2011 02:29

KJoishy wrote:What happened to Baba Ramdev? he seems to be curiously quiet...

He is not being reported by the media in headlines, but on the ground he has been able to make his presence felt. search for him in google news

http://news.google.com/news/story?pz=1& ... JCDu3EvCXM

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 25 Aug 2011 02:35

A lady in times now on why the govt hardened its stand.
In all party meet, UPA tried to determine if any party is ready for election. The answer was NO. Hence they have played hardball.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 25 Aug 2011 02:41

BJP is afraid of a strong Jan Lokpal and so govt recognised this and thought in political circles there is no support for Anna's reform. if this Janlokpal comes into being by any chance BJP comes into power they will be th ones finding it difficult to implement and many of their own state chiefs and central ministers would be resigning soon under this lokpal scrutiny. Possibly BJP leaders also have their accounts in Swiss banks along with Congressi ministers though not in big numbers! They are all (all politicians including small parties) worried of Anna's proposals!

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 25 Aug 2011 02:44

BJP has appeared as CON B in whole episode. They will have to bear results in long term.

If they can't win elections now they will never in future.

India is destined to be ruled by CON under MMS for now and under Rahul in future.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 25 Aug 2011 02:45

joshvajohn wrote:BJP is afraid of a strong Jan Lokpal and so govt recognised this and thought in political circles there is no support for Anna's reform. if this Janlokpal comes into being by any chance BJP comes into power they will be th ones finding it difficult to implement and many of their own state chiefs and central ministers would be resigning soon under this lokpal scrutiny. Possibly BJP leaders also have their accounts in Swiss banks along with Congressi ministers though not in big numbers! They are all (all politicians including small parties) worried of Anna's proposals!

I am sure that BJP has it. But compared to the loot of Sonia and her mafia cahoots, they are the street peddlers.

BJPs main issue is, it has sensed that there will be no mid term under any circumstances. Congress has 200+DMK will definitely support 20+ mamata another 20, how can this govt fall unless there is an emergency. Thus it doesnt make sense for BJP to go on full speed now.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 25 Aug 2011 02:48

IndraD wrote:BJP has appeared as CON B in whole episode. They will have to bear results in long term.

If they can't win elections now they will never in future.

India is destined to be ruled by CON under MMS for now and under Rahul in future.

The game for BJP is not today but 2 years later.
The game for BJP is simple, as long as it is not in the firing line (AH doesnt form a party himself)- this agitation will benefit BJP. Its game right now is to not openly confront, but nibble - which I think is doing it perfectly.

The media is owned by the CON party. By joining AH publicly, BJP will give a handle to congress and CON owned media will run circles around it. BJP benefits by any anti-incumbency. I will say that as of yesterday, BJP played its game very well, will it be able to continue - I dont know.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 25 Aug 2011 02:57

^^^ BJP could have got no confidence on issue citing corruption/junta has lost faith in govt and it would have proved who is on whose side.

Even if the govt survived they would have got the aggrieved people on their side. A gesture was needed from them to show they are not on congress side.

BJP itself is divided on the issue.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 25 Aug 2011 03:07

IndraD wrote:^^^ BJP could have got no confidence on issue citing corruption/junta has lost faith in govt and it would have proved who is on whose side.

Even if the govt survived they would have got the aggrieved people on their side. A gesture was needed from them to show they are not on congress side.

BJP itself is divided on the issue.

I'm not sure BJP wins no-confidence motion. It is useless as it can give space for Congress to play:

- Government is in trouble so we don't have time.
- We won no-confidence so people are with use. Anna is a Naxalite.

BJP joining outright is not useful. Looks like Congress media is baiting BJP to take stand so it can mold it as Communal movement. True secular people like Bhukari, Dhoti Roy are not supporting the movement.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 25 Aug 2011 03:07

This is the time BJP has to go full steam and demand CON goons to spit out all 600 SWISS accounts Govt. received recently. Make a stink out of it. Bring a no confidence motion.

Make the life a hell for CON Party.

Instead, they are bailing out the Gandh DieNasty.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 25 Aug 2011 03:21

IndraD wrote:^^^ BJP could have got no confidence on issue citing corruption/junta has lost faith in govt and it would have proved who is on whose side.

Even if the govt survived they would have got the aggrieved people on their side. A gesture was needed from them to show they are not on congress side.

BJP itself is divided on the issue.

BJP is doing well this time by keeping a tight lid on its mouth. I hope have told all their NDA alllies to do the same as well as any genuinely saffron parties. I remember after 26/11, RAjdeep sardesai put Praful Goradia, a muslim lady and that scum Suhel Seth in a ring and allowed Suhel Seth to launch into an invective filled tirade against the stunned Goradia. Conveniently the whole thing was turned into a public vs politicians thing. Praful Goradia was a conveniently picked target since hes past 70 and he is a known saffronite. Astonishingly Suhel Seth went on to tear into the BJP for being communal. what that has to do with 26/11 is unknown.
Anyhow, BJP should absolutely keep quiet and lie low right now and allow the congies to take the full force of this blast.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Aug 2011 03:38

So, are you guys saying... there is none in the babulatarian circles that is free to accept anna? not even a single politician? we need to find how many accept anna, so that we can rule out the rest are totally corrupted.

This bill would do a babu cleansing! of course the need of the hours now for desh. how about a two party system now.. find those who are with corruption, and those are not? [evil vs. good]

partha · Post by **partha** » 25 Aug 2011 03:40

Team Anna is saying Jan lokpal bill ko samsad mein pesh kiye jaye. Is team Anna ready to accept a scenario where Jan lokpal bill is placed before the parliament, debated and not passed because of lack of majority votes?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 Aug 2011 03:42

Theo:
1. It is easier to motivate 10 families in your street to dump garbage in the bins, than it is easier to motivate 100 families on 10 different streets.
2. If we expect one man to do a miracle, then that one man needs at the minimum some power. Even then it cannot be assured.
3. Transformations will happen rapidly across the cities, states and the country when the tipping point is reached. In order for the meme to catch on, it requires good medium for propagation.
4. I do not know the history of Sabha in that particular village. What I meant by age-old was that the concept of sabha in itself is nothing new. It existed in our history dating back to Vedic times.
5. AH is not MKG. MKG was more of an astute politician who had a good read of the pulse of the people. He was ably aided by JLN. And MKG had the British to support him. AH is battling a very specific thing - one version of a bill. MKG had a broader goal - gaining Independence.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Aug 2011 03:44

what the heck? one needs motivation to fight corruption? yeh kya how raha hai bhai saabs?

one need not be literate to understand this.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 Aug 2011 03:45

Since CONparty people themselves have questioned the constitutional authority of Civil Society isn't it going to be easy for BJP and other opposition parties to launch attack against NAC on lines of Shri Rudradev's brilliant posts from now onwards until the election?

Another question I have is "what stopped BJP to launch attack against NAC upto now"?

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 25 Aug 2011 03:52

vijayk wrote:This is the time BJP has to go full steam and demand CON goons to spit out all 600 SWISS accounts Govt. received recently. Make a stink out of it. Bring a no confidence motion.

Make the life a hell for CON Party.

Instead, they are bailing out the Gandh DieNasty.

I am a big fan of ABV, but this current bunch of central leaders drive me off.
Of-course as a party BJP hasn't become as arrogant as congress and also there is no dynasty worship in BJP. So there is still big + for BJP in many eyes.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 25 Aug 2011 03:54

SaiK wrote:So, are you guys saying... there is none in the babulatarian circles that is free to accept anna? not even a single politician? we need to find how many accept anna, so that we can rule out the rest are totally corrupted.

This bill would do a babu cleansing! of course the need of the hours now for desh. how about a two party system now.. find those who are with corruption, and those are not? [evil vs. good]

I am wondering if Anna and gang can engineer a split in both Congress and BJP, i.e invite all the supporting MLA's to join their movement and form another party. Good career prospects for MLA to break through the straight-jacket of existing political hierarchy. A new set of leaders will come up to replace the old farts that are doing a miserable job of running the country in the first place.

There is definitely support among MLA's for this. BJP is already pretty much split internally. A successful Jail Bharo would move this along further and a split combined with Jail Bharo would raise the hackles of both BJP and Congress.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 25 Aug 2011 04:06

Dhiman wrote: There is definitely support among MLA's for this. BJP is already pretty much split internally. A successful Jail Bharo would move this along further and a split combined with Jail Bharo would raise the hackles of both BJP and Congress.

This is the second time i have read this here and i am curious to know why you believe so? AFAIK, no BJP leader apart from LKA has said anything about this yet.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 25 Aug 2011 04:08

^^There was a news that that two popular BJP MPs from Bihar raised their voice and offered to quit.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Aug 2011 04:15

TOIlet - Ramdev gate crashes into protest venue

NEW DELHI: Yoga guru Ramdev gate crashed into the Ramlila Maidan on Wednesday, even taking the stage to address the audience, despite reservations expressed by Team Anna.

Baba Ramdev said he wanted to express solidarity in Anna's fight against corruption. Ramdev also chose to use the occasion to remind the crowd about the alleged "police brutality'' that he had to face in June when he was evicted from the same venue in a midnight crackdown during his protest against black money stashed abroad and corruption that besets the nation.

"I hope the police does not bring lathis and bullets again. This is a protest against corruption," he said, adding that he had told Anna that he would take to the stage if the Gandhian had to go to hospital.

The Anna camp had been reluctant to allow Ramdev to join the campaign. They had even discouraged him from addressing the crowd, but the yoga guru's insistence left them with little choice.

Reservations had been expressed during Anna's April fast over the presence of right-wing leaders like Ramdev and Sadhvi Rithambara. In an attempt to steer clear of the controversy, this time around Team Anna has changed the backdrop from Bharatmata - seen as a symbol for saffron parties - to a black and white portrait of Mahatma Gandhi.

Ramdev said he was with the 74-year-old Gandhian for an hour to extend solidarity in his "fight against corruption" and make the system "transparent". "The logjam (in talks) should end soon," he said.

Bhaskar · Post by **Bhaskar** » 25 Aug 2011 04:26

I might have been the odd one out in my family... As I supported Congress instead of BJP in the days of my youth. But, the family genes eventually kicked back.

And correctly so, Congress is definitely leading our country down to hell.
That all said, coming from a family where my uncle is a member of the Bajrang Dal (he also took part in the demolition of Babri Masjid) .. My grandmother was a staunch supporter of BJP and she donated a lot to VHP in the 90's... I am disappointed to say the least the way BJP has handled this Jan Lokpal Issue.

Of my life, the days I recall and am proud as an Indian were of the days under Atal Bihari Vajpayee... Those days are long gone. Advani is too weak, Sushma Swaraj is a great speaker but not a good decision maker, Arun Jaitley is a very great decision make and a speaker but lacks political experience and Modi well, in the eyes of many, he is tainted since 2001.
This creates a lack of leadership, a leadership which looks among each other and fails to come to a solid understanding. BJP looks like a party which is simply lost in its ideologies and how to achieve them. Its sad how a 74 year old man all by himself is a bigger opposition to the government than the BJP.
I am not surprised to see people like Yashwant Sinha resign, many others would. Because they have the soul and the heart... There are plenty of heroes in BJP who are ready to come out in support of the people but the party won't.

All in all, as a supporter of the BJP, I am disappointed by their lack of stand on this issue. I fear a bleaker future of India if the goons in Congress succeed in not passing a strong enough Lokpal Bill.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Aug 2011 04:43

Huh
sombody pisses from the mountain and BJP has take a tumbler to collect it. Otherwise it is same as CON party. Great going.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 25 Aug 2011 04:47

Gents, please. its not BJP that is the issue here.

All in all, as a supporter of the BJP, I am disappointed by their lack of stand on this issue. I fear a bleaker future of India if the goons in Congress succeed in not passing a strong enough Lokpal Bill.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 25 Aug 2011 05:16

As much as I hate to say this LK Advani needs to retire. He is a waste of space. Some young leader in the 60's should take over the BJP.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 05:26

ManjaM wrote:Gents, please. its not BJP that is the issue here.

Why is it not the issue ?

BJP can play a decisive role in this anti-corruption crusade of millions of Indians, Anna Sab and Swami Ji notwithstanding. Even if you put aside those two, there is no doubt that millions of people are fed up with the system the way it is. Why cant BJP not identify closely and articulate this sentiment and even becomes an outlet for this frustration? Isnt that what political parties are supposed to do ? Reflect the will of the people ? Instead it has done nothing but over the years followed Congress's lead in governing like SOBs.

BJP need not even come out very explicitly in support of Anna Sb as a person. But BJP can, at this point, take a very strong and unequivocal anti-corruption stance (which it has not taken in its own interest) and support Anna Sab's anti-corruption position in concept and attack the Congress in very clear and categorical terms. If it does so, not only will it be able to tip the balance in favor of all those who oppose corruption strongly but it will be able to regain some of the credibility on the corruption issue, which it has completely lost due to several of its ministers being corrupt when it was in power in the center and almost all of its CMs and their cabinets, with the exception of Modi Sab, being totally corrupt. Not only are these people totally corrupt, they also demonstrate a great deal of arrogance and contempt when dealing with the general public, which seemingly even surpasses the Congress. The Congress at least over the years has learnt to become hypocrites, by pretending to listen to the general public a little more, but the BJP people behave like total jerks.

So, Sir, BJP is the issue. If BJP were what we all had thought it was before it came to power the first time in the 90s or if it were to become so again, this country would have some hope for its future. As things stand right now, there is no hope, none whatsoever.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Aug 2011 05:27

Have you voted for BJP before.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 05:29

Acharya wrote:Have you voted for BJP before.

Not once, not twice, but all the time. I have never voted for Congress.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Aug 2011 05:30

dunno why this is difficult to handle.. we are not asking for any party to split.. it is all about joining the right minded forces for the sake of the country's future..

is that difficult? be with any party or legal affiliation, support and follow the rules against the corruption.