The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Aug 2011 07:57

AH's strength and weakness both lie in his formal non-association with party politics - something JP did not suffer from. In central-north-India, that means the prevailing networks of entrenched interests really don't trust you. They have their neat little arrangements for nafa. AH is a bull in the china shop of delicate munafa/nafa flowers.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Aug 2011 08:02

The politicians - the supposed 99% of MP's - are just the very public face of a whole system of profiteering networks of interests. Targeting politicians is good, but corruption will simply be regenerated because there is a much wider, larger and deeper network of business/profit/financial mutual dependence- and it runs from a long time, even before the Brits. When the politicians are taking up a stand against the AH forcing down of the bill - it means they have the backing of the biz/finance interests. Which means it will almost be impossible to implement in any meaningfulw ay that would really hurt the underlying interests.

But as I said, the congrez should not have set their feet into this trap. Frustrating the "middle class" - by their spokesperson's declarations the predominant movers behind AH - is bad politics, and a self-fulfilling prophecy. The middle class is held to be behind "fascism" when it occurs, out of frustration with the "democratic/parliamentarian" rashtra's shenanigans.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Aug 2011 08:11

I will just quote one of the first lessons given to me by a very sympathetic "secular" top leader - when I first inched into org games. "You know, the party has to keep and tolerate some bit of corruption. Exceptionally hard moralists are bad for the party. You have to allow some looseness in morals - especially about money/women/nasha, otherwise you don't have people who can do the dirty stuff. Running a party needs funds. How will you get it without a bit of corruption?" I was put in charge of keeping a tab on accounts but I never joined in "collection". "High" morals are needed to see that the hard-earned-from-"corruption" money is kept safe, but "high" morals are bad for "collections". I hope you understand why it would be impossible for AH's bulldozing to be accepted?

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 08:15

brihaspati wrote:AH's strength and weakness both lie in his formal non-association with party politics - something JP did not suffer from. In central-north-India, that means the prevailing networks of entrenched interests really don't trust you. They have their neat little arrangements for nafa. AH is a bull in the china shop of delicate munafa/nafa flowers.

The reason JP did not suffer from that is because he picked causes that were really relevent to the people. In a sense, he was a rare socialist, who was also a nationalist. Ana Sab can also jettison his weakness and become more JP like, if he becomes unafraid of creating a large tent which can accomodate varied points of view, for a particular cause that is truly a nationlistic cause which is close to people's heart, such as anti-corruption. I cant see how Ana Sab loses by widening his support to include even BJP bahadur.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 08:17

brihaspati wrote:I will just quote one of the first lessons given to me by a very sympathetic "secular" top leader - when I first inched into org games. "You know, the party has to keep and tolerate some bit of corruption. Exceptionally hard moralists are bad for the party. You have to allow some looseness in morals - especially about money/women/nasha, otherwise you don't have people who can do the dirty stuff. Running a party needs funds. How will you get it without a bit of corruption?" I was put in charge of keeping a tab on accounts but I never joined in "collection". "High" morals are needed to see that the hard-earned-from-"corruption" money is kept safe, but "high" morals are bad for "collections". I hope you understand why it would be impossible for AH's bulldozing to be accepted?

It would seem to a simpleton like me that the cure for the malady you have pointed out is to do away with the necessity of "collections" within a political party or at least minimize it, rather than treating "collections" as a "law of nature" such as gravity which cannot be done away with.

That is what the entire anti-corruption crusade is all about. Anti-corruption crusaders are not saying that you retain the corrupt election process or other political processes which require large amounts of monies, and still not "collect". They are not stupid. They are saying that you do away with the root cause of why money is required in politics, in large amounts.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Aug 2011 08:21

shivajisisodia wrote:
brihaspati wrote:AH's strength and weakness both lie in his formal non-association with party politics - something JP did not suffer from. In central-north-India, that means the prevailing networks of entrenched interests really don't trust you. They have their neat little arrangements for nafa. AH is a bull in the china shop of delicate munafa/nafa flowers.
The reason JP did not suffer from that is because he picked causes that were really relevent to the people. In a sense, he was a rare socialist, who was also a nationalist. Ana Sab can also jettison his weakness and become more JP like, if he becomes unafraid of creating a large tent which can accomodate varied points of view, for a particular cause that is truly a nationlistic cause which is close to people's heart, such as anti-corruption. I cant see how Ana Sab loses by widening his support to include even BJP bahadur.

I don't disagree. But as I said both sides have to be willing. BJP obviously has its reasons to be cautious. I am not a member or have "sources" in their upper cicrles, so I am only guessing their reasons. But the circle around AH is also equally cautious and reluctant - for possible reasons I hypothesized before. You are right though, that for both - this perhaps is not such an overwhelming cause as to override those other concerns [loss of clout/label of saffron vs internal political and wider global pressures] and come together.

Oh - collections cannot be done away with - its the juice that runs the whole wheel. You have not seen it from up close and smelly. It is a feast for sharks.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 25 Aug 2011 08:26

I disagree that the BJP should do anything other than exactly what it is doing.

One of the purposes of establishing the Extra-Constitutional Maino Darbar as a center of power... other than a repository for future generations of the dynasty, of course... was to consolidate the entire Left-of-Centre behind the Dynasty, including those sections of the Left which had been antagonistic towards the parliamentary party known as INC before.

Sonia's hatred is entirely directed against Hindu assertiveness... the Sangh Parivar, BJP and RSS. As Sonia sees it, (and she is correct in this) the BJP does not really have the electoral strength to secure a parliamentary majority on its own. It will get 150-200 seats as it always does, and that's it. Therefore... the ONLY chance BJP has of ousting the Congress and forming a government, is if the Centre and Left are split. That is, if Congress is isolated, and a substantial "Third Front" of Leftists is floated. In that case, the "Third Front" would grab away a sizeable chunk of seats that might otherwise have gone to Congress, but would never have gone to BJP.

That is exactly how NDA came to power in the '90s. Congress did not have enough votes, and it could not find enough allies among the Third Front type parties, to keep the NDA out. BJP managed to get enough of the Third Front parties on its side to form a majority NDA coalition.

In 2004 and 2009, by contrast, Congress managed to keep enough of the Third Front parties on its own side, to prevent a majority NDA coalition from forming.

So what did Sonia do to lessen the risk of a fatal Congress vs. Left schism in future? She started a parallel power center... her Darbar... to reach out to formerly anti-Congress sections of the Left. She wanted to ensure that even those members of the Left who may never have come together with the Congress parliamentary party, would still be loyal to Sonia. Congressl GOI supporting the Maoists in a number of opposition-ruled states, is simply an extension of this policy. Between Third Front/Left MPs who supported Congress in parliament, plus Third Front/Left leaders who became loyal to Sonia as they gained "Civil Society" influence in her Darbar... the Dynasty would control the entire Left-of-Center plus the Congress party, and BJP would stand isolated.

At least, that was the plan. It has backfired 400% with the current fireworks. A branch of that Left Civil Society whom Sonia was trying to recruit, has gone independent under the Anna Hazare banner. And their actions are giving the Congress hell. The longer this goes on, the more Congress and the Dynasty stand to lose.

Congress is in total disarray over this backstabbing. All their guns were pointed at Hindu assertiveness, Hindu terrorism etc. All their dirty tricks, their pocket Islamist leaders, their artificially propped up "Dalit" leaders... all these were cultivated as political weapons against the BJP.

Today, Congress is trying to use THESE shills as weapons against the Anna movement... but it is failing.

If BJP openly joins hands with the Anna movement.. these shills will once again become effective weapons for the Congress. Muslims will start listening to Bukhari's anti-Anna statements; Caste Groups will start to rally around Udit Raj and Kancha Illaih's propaganda. The opposition to Congress will become divided. The huge rift that has emerged between the Left and the Congress, will start to heal itself.

As I said, the longer the current standoff goes on... the more Congress and the Dynasty have to lose. BJP getting involved may take the wind out of the Anna movement's sails, because it gives the Congress a chance to use its vote-banking dirty tricks (Islamist leaders, "Dalit" leaders) to much better effect and discredit the Anna movement. Exactly as, an Indian military strike on Pakistan would bring together the TSPA/ISI and Pakiban who are currently killing each other. Why should BJP give Congress that opportunity?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 25 Aug 2011 08:28

The politicians - the supposed 99% of MP's - are just the very public face of a whole system of profiteering networks of interests. Targeting politicians is good, but corruption will simply be regenerated because there is a much wider, larger and deeper network of business/profit/financial mutual dependence- and it runs from a long time, even before the Brits. When the politicians are taking up a stand against the AH forcing down of the bill - it means they have the backing of the biz/finance interests. Which means it will almost be impossible to implement in any meaningfulw ay that would really hurt the underlying interests.

While , this bill may not completely wipe out corruption it would prove to be a great deterrent.... I mean no country is corruption free...What we want is that corruption should not affect mango citizens...

As far as industries are concerned you are right... Small/mid sized industries face a lot of problems due to the nexus of the gigantic companies with politicians...

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 08:29

brihaspati wrote:
Oh - collections cannot be done away with - its the juice that runs the whole wheel. You have not seen it from up close and smelly.

You may be right. In fact, in the Indian context, I strongly suspect that you are right.

But if collections cannot be done away with, then corruption cannot be done away with. That is a law of nature (fourth law of logic).

And if corruption cannot be done away with, then the survival of Hindus is impossible. This is also a law of nature (fifth law of logic). The muslim leadership intuitively senses this and this is the reason it brands the movement "anti muslim", not because of some trivialities such as someone singing Vande Matram.

Knowing fully well, that you are right, the best among us still feel a compulsion to keep fighting and go down fighting, like Karna. He knew his fate and yet fought and some of us are doomed to the same fate. The rest of the vast majority of us will also go down, but they will go down like cowards, by either converting or by selling their women.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Aug 2011 08:30

An excellent step by the Bihar govt. Nitish and Sushil deserve to be congratulated. This provision should be incorporated into the Lokpal bill.

Bihar offers cash reward for tip-off on corruption

Anna Hazare may have sown the seeds of a nationwide revolution by giving the clarion call against corruption from Delhi's Ramila Maidan after Independence Day. But the Nitish Kumar-led Bihar government has for long been taking meaningful strides to root out the menace.

In its latest step, the state government has decided to give whistleblowers a Rs 5-lakh incentive for exposing graft in development projects.

The amount will be given to anyone who tips off the vigilance bureau about the 'loot' of public money meant for welfare projects. But the cash award will be given only after the accused is convicted and substantial government funds are saved.

Deputy CM Sushil Kumar Modi said the state government had created special funds within the vigilance department to offer cash rewards to people who would help it fight corruption. He said cash awards up to Rs 50,000 would also be given for providing authentic information about disproportionate assets of corrupt public servants if chargesheets were filed against them on the basis of the tip-off.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 49072.html

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 25 Aug 2011 08:35

brihaspati wrote: Oh - collections cannot be done away with - its the juice that runs the whole wheel. You have not seen it from up close and smelly. It is a feast for sharks.

It appears AH has hit the very nerve of the system. The entire system will come to a grinding halt if this bill passes. I wouldn't mind if there is a system restart every now and then. It keeps the system fresh. besides, we did not have a restart in recent past.
There are some sacrifices to be made however. Our economic system will take a hit and rollback couple of years but the acceleration later which we get will be enough to put us in inter planetary orbit. It is a blessing that worldwide there is a slowdown in financial system. This is the best time for our system to have a refresh. The worst time is when everybody is growing at 9% and we are having a system restart.
I am all in for a system reset. Go Anna go!!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Aug 2011 08:36

Rudradev ji,
I have been trying to propose as to why BJP may stand to lose if they deviate from their current strategy. At the same time, I believe, the way it is going - is making choosing sides inevitable for everyone concerned. Sooner or later, choices will have to be made. So postponement is necessary for now - but for how long that remains an option is not so clear.

One thing is sure - congrez shows the early signs of losing the game in the long run, for whatever it does now - it loses anyway. At some point, however BJP will have to take leadership - even if indirectly. The alternative is the legitimization of Maoist claims and in reaction a Fascist reaction. That need not be nice even for the BJP.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Aug 2011 08:47

shivajisisodia wrote: And if corruption cannot be done away with, then the survival of Hindus is impossible. This is also a law of nature (fifth law of logic). The muslim leadership intuitively senses this and this is the reason it brands the movement "anti muslim", not because of some trivialities such as someone singing Vande Matram.

A deep observation which obviously does not apply to all Muslims leaders. Need to empower those that support the national cause. This also applies to John Dayal, Arundhati Roy etc. But while a Dayal may get plenty of funds from abroad, who will give anything to the nationalists?

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 25 Aug 2011 08:48

Prem wrote:A largely middle-class movement such as Hazare's cannot claim to speak for the vast majority of Indians – the rural poor, Dalits and tribals, among others.

This sort of statement is something that i completely disagree with, and this is something that i have heard many a people repeat.

Why cannot and why isn't Hazare's movement representative of the whole nation?? I have yet to see a coherent argument...

This is akin to what any British Viceroy would have told Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi!!

Why do Indians repeat the same ...? Keep in mind the larger truth. Here is a man doing the "Right Thing", not for himself, nor for his family, nor his caste, creed nor religion. He is doing it for all the citizens of India.

Along the lines of how the founding fathers of the nation thought....

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Aug 2011 08:49

shivajisisodia wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
Oh - collections cannot be done away with - its the juice that runs the whole wheel. You have not seen it from up close and smelly.
You may be right. In fact, in the Indian context, I strongly suspect that you are right.

But if collections cannot be done away with, then corruption cannot be done away with. That is a law of nature (fourth law of logic).

And if corruption cannot be done away with, then the survival of Hindus is impossible. This is also a law of nature (fifth law of logic). The muslim leadership intuitively senses this and this is the reason it brands the movement "anti muslim", not because of some trivialities such as someone singing Vande Matram.

Knowing fully well, that you are right, the best among us still feel a compulsion to keep fighting and go down fighting, like Karna. He knew his fate and yet fought and some of us are doomed to the same fate. The rest of the vast majority of us will also go down, but they will go down like cowards, by either converting or by selling their women.

I did not say I support "collections" in the manner and for purposes with side benefits - I know of very well. One of the primary reasons a lot of middle level functionaries from one region absolutely hate me. I did not compromise and increased my active distance. As a teenager I was romantically moved by notions of going down fighting. As a more mature "kid" I believe going down without achieving the objective is immature and kidlike. All the soldiers are needed. But then battleground should be a matter of choice. When to engage the enemy should again be a matter of careful choice. How far to push the enemy and knowing where to disengage is also important.

A section of Muslim leadership and some Dalit self-appointed spokespersons have been activated out of various political linkages with forces aligned against the "saffron". But by doing so they are making a costly political mistake. They are helping to create the very thing they often conjure as the ultimate nightmare - a turn towards the fascist. I think none of the people involved at the policy level realize what they are creating by their opposition. This particular movement will go down over time. Over time the regime will go after various individuals and we may see fantastic scandals being splashed out. Individual leaders may get discredited. But the seeds of the future authoritarian backlash will be sown right now - by frustration at the hands of the rashtra.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 08:51

brihaspati wrote:Rudradev ji,
I have been trying to propose as to why BJP may stand to lose if they deviate from their current strategy. At the same time, I believe, the way it is going - is making choosing sides inevitable for everyone concerned. Sooner or later, choices will have to be made. So postponement is necessary for now - but for how long that remains an option is not so clear.

One thing is sure - congrez shows the early signs of losing the game in the long run, for whatever it does now - it loses anyway. At some point, however BJP will have to take leadership - even if indirectly. The alternative is the legitimization of Maoist claims and in reaction a Fascist reaction. That need not be nice even for the BJP.

But how can BJP take leadership on this issue. BJP as a party and as individual leaders within the party barring very few exceptions like Modi Sab, are heavily invested in "collections" not just to run the party but to build their personal fortunes. The only incentive they have to change the "collections" system is to advance "national interest". Do you think that is motivation enough for the BJP and its leadership and cadre ? Would national interest in their minds ever trump the desire to hold on to power at any cost in order to build personal fortunes ? If not, they will never join an anti-corruption crusade, leave aside lead it.

This is precisely the reason BJP doesnt join Ana Sab or anyone else in opposing corruption in any meaningful way. When I advocate BJP joining this crusade, I dont naively assume, that they will join it while still leaving their "collections" system intact. I actually mean that they should give up their "collections" system and then join. Hell, I will be Ok, if they give up their collections system and "dont join" any crusade. In my view, it is not so important that BJP joins the anti-corruption movement, but that they do away with the real reason why they are not joining the movement-which is their unwillingness to give up their "collections" system.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Aug 2011 08:56

shaardula wrote:this is a very cynical post theo and i'm surprised you of all people here made it. you have seen the world and the village, and you make this post?

I don't see what is cynical at all. Nitish came through the constitutional process did he not. IMHO he has had 1000 times the effect of AH (or for that matter the entire achievements of this 'movement') who only had a tiny village to deal with. People are not opposed to voting for anti-corruption leaders. AMMA, Nitish and even DIDI in recent times have come up through the electoral system. Reform within the system is far far more effective than any attempt at revolution.

The only real revolution will come when society transforms and flattens itself providing equal access to all. Social system at present is rigged. These sorts of movements are simple power plays.

Let me point out there is a lady in NE who has been on hunger strike for 10 years over some particularly unfair laws that don't affect the middle class. No loving embrace of 10 doctors for her.

What AH/this movement wants is the controls of Lokpal in the hands of the middle class unaccountable to the democratic system, as in the carefully selected/nominated, supposedly clean and above suspicion people. Why not directly elect the lokpal representative. There is no support for that is there. Middle class wants to be able to decide what is corruption and what is not. Many on this board have railed against reservations as corruption, NREGA as corruption (includes me), PDS as corruption, etc. The voters lower down have been very clear that they do not think this is corruption at all.

Let me tell you a story about a peanut farmer in my neck of the woods. About 15 years ago his neighbor a powerful landlord filled a bogus case against him over illegally cropping/occupying some land. It was about 10 sq yds IIRC. The court sentence was 10 years in prison.

After 6 months the appeals court quietly suggested a donation be made. About Rs 10,000 exchanged hands and he was set free. This is the experience the really poor have of corruption. Sometimes it is the only option they have of saving their lives. The system might bend to them if they can raise enough money.

A rigid lokpal system might cause quite a bit of harm especially when the system is so deeply deeply unfair and rigged against the really poor.

I repeat. The only real revolution will come when society transforms and flattens itself providing equal access to all. Social system at present is rigged.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 08:58

brihaspati wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
Oh - collections cannot be done away with - its the juice that runs the whole wheel. You have not seen it from up close and smelly.

I did not say I support "collections" in the manner and for purposes with side benefits - I know of very well. One of the primary reasons a lot of middle level functionaries from one region absolutely hate me. I did not compromise and increased my active distance. As a teenager I was romantically moved by notions of going down fighting. As a more mature "kid" I believe going down without achieving the objective is immature and kidlike. All the soldiers are needed. But then battleground should be a matter of choice. When to engage the enemy should again be a matter of careful choice. How far to push the enemy and knowing where to disengage is also important.

A section of Muslim leadership and some Dalit self-appointed spokespersons have been activated out of various political linkages with forces aligned against the "saffron". But by doing so they are making a costly political mistake. They are helping to create the very thing they often conjure as the ultimate nightmare - a turn towards the fascist. I think none of the people involved at the policy level realize what they are creating by their opposition. This particular movement will go down over time. Over time the regime will go after various individuals and we may see fantastic scandals being splashed out. Individual leaders may get discredited. But the seeds of the future authoritarian backlash will be sown right now - by frustration at the hands of the rashtra.

You cannot achieve any nationalistic objectives without doing away with corruption and by logic thereby, without doing away with "collections" for party or private reasons.

You cannot do away with "collections" without fighting to get rid of it.

As per your own assertion, that is probably a losing cause in India. I know you dont support collection, only think that it cannot be done away with. BJP certainly doesnt want to do away with it.

Therefore, Hindus are bound to go down.

The only question is whether they will go down fighting or like cowards.

Where do you see a third option, where Hindus will survive, while "collections" still survives ? Achieving what objective, given your own assessment that "collections cannot be done away with", are you talking about ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Aug 2011 09:01

Don't understand the urge to whine about BJP in this thread. Please don't do that and stick to the topic.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 09:05

ramana wrote:Don't understand the urge to whine about BJP in this thread. Please don't do that and stick to the topic.

How can you talk about corruption and Jan Lok Pal and Ana Hazare and Baba Ramdev without discussing one of the two political parties and its actions and intentions vis-a-vis corruption? Marginalizing a thought by characterizing it with a derogatory term such as a "whine" is an old technique used, when there are no good counter arguments. Something I havent done since high school.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 25 Aug 2011 09:10

I have a simple question onlee. Is India ready for Jan Lok Pal? Emotionally I know I am ready but I am telling you as a guy who has a good career in financial system, We will incur a significant cost in short term while doing so. Many companies will be wiped out and entire financial system will be reset. Is corporate India ready for that?
Infosys scion Narayan Murthy cautioned against haste in Lok Pal too quickly. He did have a point. Believe me, I know why he is talking. It will stop the entire financial wagon of India.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 09:15

Altair wrote:I have a simple question onlee. Is India ready for Jan Lok Pal? Emotionally I know I am ready but I am telling you as a guy who has a good career in financial system, We will incur a significant cost in short term while doing so. Many companies will be wiped out and entire financial system will be reset. Is corporate India ready for that?
Infosys scion Narayan Murthy cautioned against haste in Lok Pal too quickly. He did have a point. Believe me, I know why he is talking. It will stop the entire financial wagon of India.

Dont worry, it wont happen. Effective Jan Lok Pal will never happen. Bpati is right on that.

As to the desirability, yes, it is desirable to have a thorough cleansing. You are right. Entire companies will go out of business. But those that will, deserve to go out of business, because they were born out of and sustained via corruption. They were the beneficiaries of a corrupt system, not of a merit based system. Therefore, they must go down. But guess what ? They will quickly be replaced by new companies, healthy companies, companies born out of a healthier system and therefore, these companies will be more merit based. They will deserve to exist.

Less corruption will turn the current reward system within the society on its head. As opposed to the least able being rewarded today because of corruption, as you do away with corruption, the more able and meritorious will be rewarded.

That will be a good thing. Nothing to be scared of.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Aug 2011 09:18

Pranav wrote:
shivajisisodia wrote: A deep observation which obviously does not apply to all Muslims leaders. Need to empower those that support the national cause. This also applies to John Dayal, Arundhati Roy etc. But while a Dayal may get plenty of funds from abroad, who will give anything to the nationalists?

Nationalists are the soul keepers and givers not beggers. if push come to shove then these real "nationalists" must wear Basanti and get rid of the roaches, vultures and jackals. Karma=action and that moment is not for thinking but acting. Right or wrong results contemplation can be done latter on. Maro pehle, poocho baad me, change will follow.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Aug 2011 09:21

The issue is Anna Hazare and Jan Lokal Bill. INC is in power thru the UPA. I dont see any reason to bring in BJP which cant change the situation.

One more post and will caution you for derailing the thread.

BJP is not germane to the thread.

All, I am tired of mollycoddling folks who bring in favprite pet peeves and derail threads.. We have umpteen threads for folks to express themselves: Off Topic, Whine thread etc.

skumar · Post by **skumar** » 25 Aug 2011 09:23

Altair wrote:I have a simple question onlee. Is India ready for Jan Lok Pal? Emotionally I know I am ready but I am telling you as a guy who has a good career in financial system, We will incur a significant cost in short term while doing so. Many companies will be wiped out and entire financial system will be reset. Is corporate India ready for that?
Infosys scion Narayan Murthy cautioned against haste in Lok Pal too quickly. He did have a point. Believe me, I know why he is talking. It will stop the entire financial wagon of India.

In the short run, it will definitely substantially slow down decision making and in the long run, will slow it down marginally. But that is a small price to pay to get rid of this malignant tumour or at least reduce it. No one believes that the JLPB will get rid of corruption, people will find new ways to deal with it as they always have but the costs and chances of getting caught will increase.

You are also right about the impact it will have on us as individuals in terms of both rights and responsibilities. In terms of rights, the RTI Act has empowered individuals to a great extent but it is not something that people have used extensively. So I find it farcical when this govt says they want the PM to be protected from frivolous suits.

BTW, Mr. Murthy is not the Infosys "scion"

.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Aug 2011 09:31

Does anybody have any idea what the specific areas of disagreement are that remain between AH and the government ? Looks like PM being under scope & judiciary being kept out can be agreed to by both sides...so which are the remaining issues which are roadblocks?

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Aug 2011 09:32

I am amazed at this argumentative tendency of us Indians, when things are in a mess we do nothing and complain when someone tries to change things we press the panic button and split hairs as to how the change might not be good for us. No wonder same bunch of clowns get elected every term.

pvshankar · Post by **pvshankar** » 25 Aug 2011 09:40

Interesting but long article on Arvind Kejriwal
http://www.caravanmagazine.in/PrintThis ... oryId=1050

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Aug 2011 09:42

^^^

I guess Nitish, AMMA, DIDI, NM, Patnaik, etc are clowns to you. Think man before posting.

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Aug 2011 09:46

^ Your post tells the story Theo , nice to see you can count the good and able ones on finger tips in the world's largest democracy.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Aug 2011 09:54

Theo_Fidel wrote: Let me point out there is a lady in NE who has been on hunger strike for 10 years over some particularly unfair laws that don't affect the middle class. No loving embrace of 10 doctors for her.

Who said Sharmila is neglected? She has been getting huge attention from secularists ever since the Hazare movement started getting traction. Two major problems with your thesis -

(1) The AH movement is getting significant support in Manipur (including from Sharmila herself!)
(2) The AH movement is predominantly a working class movement, if one goes by the crowd in Ramlila.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 25 Aug 2011 10:05

Arjun wrote:Does anybody have any idea what the specific areas of disagreement are that remain between AH and the government ? Looks like PM being under scope & judiciary being kept out can be agreed to by both sides...so which are the remaining issues which are roadblocks?

link

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 25 Aug 2011 10:09

negi wrote:I am amazed at this argumentative tendency of us Indians, when things are in a mess we do nothing and complain when someone tries to change things we press the panic button and split hairs as to how the change might not be good for us. No wonder same bunch of clowns get elected every term.

negi sirjee
I am not pressing the panic button. I am only foreseeing the after effects and cautioning people who are portraying all rosy picture post-Jan Lok Pal India. All I am saying is majority prepared for the impact? I am prepared. Are majority Indians?

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Aug 2011 10:12

Did anyone watch the Vishwabandhu Gupta interview from Chauthiduniya webportal ? It was casually posted probably 10 pages ago on this thread with link in between a post.

VBG mentioned that, and I agree, the govt is being too clever by half. He rightly pointed out that the main grievance people have with corruption is in the delivery end of bureaucracy (VBG called corruption at 'cutting edge') and govt on purpose omitted class 2,3,4 govt servants from LokPal purview. VBG felt that the MMS regime wanted to probably privatise this delivery side (cutting edge) of bureaucracy in future and was cleverly preparing ground for it by ignoring Class 3,4 empolyees from Lokpal purview and including just Class-1 officers in Lokpal. But again the problem was that the govt would privatize but wouldn't appoint independent regulators (or very weak regulators) to oversee the newly privatized delivery side, as seen in telecom and others and which would make it self-defeating for the purpose wrt commons.

So basically it seems fight is between lobbies within the MMS to privatize favoring Indian corporates and without regulators. And the Arvind Kejriwal, Manish Sisodia & Kiran bedi fighting for Ford Foundation/Rockefeller MNC interests of lowering corruption expense to MNC business. The latter are using Anna as a pawn in this game.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Aug 2011 10:13

BTW folks, in all party meet -- official responses

CPI, BJP+NDA constituents were in favor of withdrawing the current Lokpal bill and introducing Anna's (or nearly same)

Others, Lalu, SP et al were not.

This is the real story, people should get used to the reality instead of making up things.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Aug 2011 10:13

habal wrote:The latter are using Anna as a pawn in this game.

Every one is assuming that Indian nationalists are powerless weak simpletons who cant play some chess themselves.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 25 Aug 2011 10:14

Victor wrote:What I've been struggling to understand is how anyone would expect the politicians of any party to willingly hang themselves from the nearest lamp post.

The JLPB calls not only for draining bank accounts and assets of the corrupt but also handing out jail terms and life sentences. "The corrupt" is essentially 99% of the Lok and Rajya Sabhas which also shelters murderers. Does anyone believe there is a single politician who would pass unscathed if the law went into full effect? The entire political machinery and bureaucracy would be wiped out overnight.
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Altair wrote:I have a simple question onlee. Is India ready for Jan Lok Pal? Emotionally I know I am ready but I am telling you as a guy who has a good career in financial system, We will incur a significant cost in short term while doing so. Many companies will be wiped out and entire financial system will be reset. Is corporate India ready for that?
Infosys scion Narayan Murthy cautioned against haste in Lok Pal too quickly. He did have a point. Believe me, I know why he is talking. It will stop the entire financial wagon of India.

Hang on, hang on, hang on.

I think we may not be viewing the JLPB very realistically if we come to such conclusions as in the bolded parts of the posts quoted above.

It is not realistic to think that the Jan Lok Pal will be some Avenging Angel, storming through the country and prosecuting everyone who ever gave or accepted a bribe in the last 67 years. It can never work that way; and if we believe those kinds of things we are only succumbing to Congress fear-mongering on the subject.

In any situation where a new constitutional office is created, or a new law is passed, with the intent of securing system-wide reform... for it to have ANY realistic chance of success, it CANNOT be retro-active.

This is ESPECIALLY true when the behaviour sought to be reformed, i.e. corruption, is of a type that has become (unfortunately) institutionalized throughout the system.

Take the example of Apartheid in South Africa. If it had been the case that, with the end of Apartheid, EVERY white person who ever discriminated against a black person would be prosecuted... we would never have seen the reform of Apartheid. No matter what the pressure, the White South African govt. would have fought a civil war to the last man before compromising.

That is not what happened. The end of Apartheid, and the outlawing of racial discrimination, did not mean that Whites who had discriminated against Blacks in the past would be retro-actively prosecuted. A Truth and Reconciliation committee was established; the slate was wiped clean, and a new beginning was made under which racial discrimination would no longer be allowed in future.

Something similar will have to happen with the JLPB, if it is to have a realistic chance of success. Even the Anna Team knows this.

First of all, the slate will be wiped clean. Much as it may anger us, we may not see the prosecution of politicians involved in past scams by the Jan Lok Pal. CWG and 2G scams may not come under the purview of Jan Lok Pal, but instead be dealt with under the laws that existed before passage of the JLPB. What matters is that any corruption in future will be investigated and prosecuted by the Jan Lok Pal.

Secondly, especially in the case of Corporations, some Grace Period will be negotiated. For example: let us say Company X has won a contract based on grey-area business practices, for which it had to pay bribes to the GOI. To ensure the continuity of business... a very important thing for India Inc's image and the country's financial health... Company X will not be prosecuted immediately. It will be given some Grace Period of say, 12-24 months to execute all outstanding orders; but it will be monitored to ensure that it cleans up its act within that period, and any future violations will be prosecuted.

There is no need to freak out over any of this. It isn't the end of WW2 where Nuremberg Trials await everybody who was ever culpable. It is simply an attempt at system-wide reform, and all parties involved recognize that the price of reform cannot be such that further damage is done to the national interest; thus, the slate must be wiped clean and grace periods given, but any future violations must be prosecuted.

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Aug 2011 10:18

Sanku wrote:
habal wrote:The latter are using Anna as a pawn in this game.
Every one is assuming that Indian nationalists are powerless weak simpletons who cant play some chess themselves.

Ofcourse. Anything wrong in assuming Indian nationalists are powerless, weak. Would they do anything without strong foreign backing or overt support from Indian groups. Is there enough personal conviction in even a single Indian to get up and fight injustice all by himself in this current generation.

Anna hazare belongs to a past generation. He is an exception.

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Aug 2011 10:20

Vishwabandhu Gupta interview:

http://www.chauthiduniya.com/2011/08/an ... ister.html

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Aug 2011 10:23

asdharia wrote:If jan lokpal does come in effect, I am thinking first few yrs will be tough for all of us including the politicians and the general ppl. The reason being were so used to living this life without law, enter a no entry, if caught pay 20Rs get out. Travel without tkts, if caught pay tc move on. For businesses dont pay sales tax, water tax, labor unions ...just pay the officers and move on. So this is going to be tough. My take is that the bureaucrats are going to make our life tough for first few yrs since their source of income will stop. So they will try to break the common man into submitting to corruption. But its a game of who blinks first. We will need to think of a plan to break this and I think that is as imp is just getting the Jan Lokpal to be passed. If we can hold off that attack, then its a real victory, as that is going to be a long drawn and difficult battle, and each one of us will have to get the resolve of Anna, only then we can fight this menace. With time hopefully things will improve and if the countries management realises that they are loosing, we can get them to mentally accept Jan Lokpal. This is not just a fight for a law, this fight has to be a fight of psyche, mentality and culture. The problem is corruption is not due to just the present govt, is a systematic brainwashing that was going on for the past 60 years. We will need time and resolve to fight this. All the best to all of us.

^+111

Agree. But personal fight comes later, Anna & team are still fighting for stage one.