The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

[Kanson]

X Posting from Army Thread

Support for Anna shows power of democracy: Army Chief

Stating that the nation was in a "morass", Army Chief General V K Singh has said the support that the anti-corruption movement was getting was an indication of "power of democracy, power of people."
The country, he said, was passing through "an interesting and turbulent period.
"The theme is only one--how do we take the nation forward from the morass that we are in.... It is not who is leading the movement but it is why it has come to this stage," he said.

Very surprising for the Chief to make such a statement. But i am happy :0)

Wow! Couldn't remember in recent years any Chief had that gumption to utter such words. As long this Chief hold office at helm, Congress can't think about emergency. Any wrong move by Congress on this episode in arrogance of power, they must be biding good-bye to Indian political landscape for years.

[Anantha]

Support for Anna shows power of democracy: Army Chief

Stating that the nation was in a "morass", Army Chief General V K Singh has said the support that the anti-corruption movement was getting was an indication of "power of democracy, power of people."
The country, he said, was passing through "an interesting and turbulent period.
"The theme is only one--how do we take the nation forward from the morass that we are in.... It is not who is leading the movement but it is why it has come to this stage," he said.

Very surprising for the Chief to make such a statement. But i am happy :0)

Wow! Couldn't remember in recent years any Chief had that gumption to utter such words. As long this Chief hold office at helm, Congress can't think about emergency. Any wrong move by Congress on this episode in arrogance of power, they must be biding good-bye to Indian political landscape for years.[/quote]




If you read between the lines it looks more and more like the Chief VKS has threatened or issued a veiled threat to the Govt that army may support the people storming of the parliament or that it may step up the pressure to ask the Govt to go to people to ask for a fresh mandate.

[Kanson]

Yesterday, I watched Indian English News channels. Times Now says, they are telecasting Anna protest non stop 24 hrs for several days. Their message is supportive of Team Anna and very positive. Watched Medha Pathkar speech at the Anna camp. Other Channel I watched were receptive of Anna protest and try to do in their own way. In NDTV, Nidhi's program I seen Swami Agnivesh, openly criticizing Anna for not ending the fast. First he mentioned, some people misguide him to continue the fast then reverted, It is Anna himself, when forced by Nidhi to reveal those names who are misguiding him. He said, how it is win-win situation if Anna ended fast once Parl accepted to discuss his Jan Lokpal proposal and if he did that, it will be upholding the democracy. He just stopped short of saying, he had a rift with Anna team. NDTV is more supportive of Congress stand.

[Kanson]

If you read between the lines it looks more and more like the Chief VKS has threatened or issued a veiled threat to the Govt that army may support the people storming of the parliament or that it may step up the pressure to ask the Govt to go to people to ask for a fresh mandate.

If that is what he tried to say, I welcome such move. When there is revolution in every society, it is only in our country with such patience we tried to tolerate such menace for long time.

[habal]

Sanku have you seen this video:

Seems like a perfect fit for MMS and Montek Singh. No wonder, they can't even sleep at night unless this fellow gets appointed.

[sumishi]

If you read between the lines it looks more and more like the Chief VKS has threatened or issued a veiled threat to the Govt that army may support the people storming of the parliament or that it may step up the pressure to ask the Govt to go to people to ask for a fresh mandate.

If that is what he tried to say, I welcome such move. When there is revolution in every society, it is only in our country with such patience we tried to tolerate such menace for long time.

Any historical precedence of army seizing controls, and then relinquishing power following (after allowing) a popular mandate?

[Muppalla]

This thing about PM being honest is a big BS. Kanimozhi and Raja have minutes of the meeting where PM has Oked that there will be no auction of spectrum.
Nevertheless I would rather take a corrupt PM who can keep the other 540 MP's honest.

You should read the saga of vote for cash -> Amar Singh -> Reliance.

Reliance is hell bent that the government should not fall. MMS is hell bent that Nuke deal should pass. SP voting for MMS is a move by Reliance using cash via broker Amar Singh. MMS is no more the honest and and just the puppet. Reliance is deeply involved in 2G scam via Raja. Infact Radia tapes released are more focussed on TATA but arrested ones are from Reliance. MMS allowing Raja to do whatever is all because of Reliance and MMS links.

[Anantha]

[/quote]
Any historical precedence of army seizing controls, and then relinquishing power following (after allowing) a popular mandate?[/quote]

In a country with strong civilian controls all that a patriotic army chief has to do is to "advice" the President of India to dissolve the Lok Sabha and order fresh elections. Once elections are ordered you will see the politicians falling on Anna's and public's feet next day.

[shivajisisodia]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 740033.cms

So, there is no money to fortify the Chinese border.

Isnt this a classic definition of corruption ?

There is money enough to buy votes via various government subsidy schemes such as discounted rice, rural employment scam, scheme after scheme to help one special interest after another, rural poor schemes, urban poor schemes, free housing schemes, and lord knows what not. Most of this goes to the "creamy layer" in the form of corruption and never makes it down to the truly needy anyway.

But there is no money for fortifying our border.

Way to go, Sardar "Dont Call Me Corrupt" Singh.

How many more decades of 10% growth would we need to be able to fortify our borders ?

[Kanson]

I can't believe BRFites are falling for this "middle class driving the movement" perception carefully created by the English Media. Its bad enough that CNN-IBN/NDTV are trying to pit middle class with lower class, minorities with majority to serve the Congress.

Why are we falling for that divide-and-rule policy.

Lets consider the typical political meetings where the motivation often tends to be incentives offered (aka bribes). This brings out a particular working class to the meetings.

However, in the current movement, there is no such incentive offered. On top of that this brought out working class and middle class.

If one uses typical political gatherings as reference, the delta is "middle class". That does not mean that this is driven by the "middle class". It only means, lower and middle class have become partners.

Let me tell you a story about a peanut farmer in my neck of the woods. About 15 years ago his neighbor a powerful landlord filled a bogus case against him over illegally cropping/occupying some land. It was about 10 sq yds IIRC. The court sentence was 10 years in prison. After 6 months the appeals court quietly suggested a donation be made. About Rs 10,000 exchanged hands and he was set free. This is the experience the really poor have of corruption. Sometimes it is the only option they have of saving their lives. The system might bend to them if they can raise enough money.

A rigid lokpal system might cause quite a bit of harm especially when the system is so deeply deeply unfair and rigged against the really poor.

This is like saying, lets create a small hole in the hen house. Because when the wolf gets in through the main access, hen need something to escape. But then, what about those that can't fit through the hole? and What if something else comes through this hole?

One would think the solution should actually prevent wolf from getting into the hen house.

Coming to your example, what if those farmers that can't pool 10,000? What if it required more money to get him out? Is that really a justification for loose laws?

One would think the solution is to protect the person like your peanut farmer from bogus case (your words) by a powerful landlord (your words). And if Jan Lok Pal has the power to investigate judiciary (don't take that as a vote for that item, I have my reservations), it would be solved. So, if you really want to help your peanut farmer, you should be supporting the Jan LokPal as it exists right now.

I don't see what is cynical at all. Nitish came through the constitutional process did he not. IMHO he has had 1000 times the effect of AH (or for that matter the entire achievements of this 'movement') who only had a tiny village to deal with. People are not opposed to voting for anti-corruption leaders. AMMA, Nitish and even DIDI in recent times have come up through the electoral system. Reform within the system is far far more effective than any attempt at revolution.

What if Nitish becomes corrupt tomorrow or DIDI gets corrupt. Is there a guarantee that they wont? How much should one rely on moral compass of the powerful or wait until all the elected leaders and morally upright? Is that really a winning strategy, I mean that is what we have been doint for 64 years right. What actually happened is that they consolidated more and more power and are sitting on a pile of "conflicts of interests" (they now get the MP funds instead of IAS distributing it previously, they successfully protected themselves from being prosecuted by anybody outside the parliament).

In absense of recall or any similar mechanism to fire the MPs in the 5 year period (I am not sure if we are ready for that yet).. an investigative agency which is not controlled by the government and has the jurisdiction on all govt employees is a big shot in the arm.

How does one ensure LokPal is not corrupt, that is a valid question and can be discussed!

Sorry for posting it full. This is a classic case of wrong interpretation. If the cleansing activity is top to bottom approach, that is starting to clean the top layer, I believe such problems as depicted by Theo won't arise. When a room to be cleaned of dust, in cleaning process with V. cleaner or broomstick, at any time there will be accumulation of dust more in some places than other. Once the process is complete, I believe we won't have such problem. The whole system of bribe at lower level happened becoz, there is no system which is responsive even to lowest section of the society.

Ultimately, CBI's opinion depends on who is in power," Justice Verma said

As former Chief justice of India, Verma, noted in the article on CBI (posted here), it is the Head of the system which should get pruned. Once the top layer started behaving, then the entire system behaves accordingly.

[Kanson]

If you read between the lines it looks more and more like the Chief VKS has threatened or issued a veiled threat to the Govt that army may support the people storming of the parliament or that it may step up the pressure to ask the Govt to go to people to ask for a fresh mandate.

If that is what he tried to say, I welcome such move. When there is revolution in every society, it is only in our country with such patience we tried to tolerate such menace for long time.

Any historical precedence of army seizing controls, and then relinquishing power following (after allowing) a popular mandate?

Sir, there is a very recent example, very close to our country, Bangladesh.

[Pranav]

Any historical precedence of army seizing controls, and then relinquishing power following (after allowing) a popular mandate?

In a country with strong civilian controls all that a patriotic army chief has to do is to "advice" the President of India to dissolve the Lok Sabha and order fresh elections. Once elections are ordered you will see the politicians falling on Anna's and public's feet next day.

Saar, EVMs are the key question. Unless non-transparent and non-verifiable EVMs are gotten rid of, elections will be dubious.

[Virupaksha]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011 ... h-treasury
Treasury strikes tax evasion deal with Switzerland to recoup unpaid cash

Like Germany, queendom has also started to tax the swiss accounts?
And what did Sonia through MMS get India sign?

[SaiK]

So BJP doing an U turn [not read the complete in between the line in the turn news], looks like our thread is being read. Good Job BJP.. change is mandatory if driven by the people!

[abhishek_sharma]

From facebook

[Prem]

[quote="Kanson

If that is what he tried to say, I welcome such move. When there is revolution in every society, it is only in our country with such patience we tried to tolerate such menace for long time.

Any historical precedence of army seizing controls, and then relinquishing power following (after allowing) a popular mandate?

In both cases, its a sad commentray on India political system. Gandhi had the foresight to advise dismantling Congress right after 47. If , as alleged ,UPA/Con-greasi have done EVM fraud to come to power then hope justice get done in Military court as the crime tentamounts to treason, undermining national security from both external and internal enemies.

[sum]

NDTV is more supportive of Congress stand.

Well, a paid broker has to be supportive of his master,...however, Rajdeep S seems to be wanting to outshine NDTV in INC @$$-kissing...

[Pranav]

Mumbai: Buyers pay as builders forced to grease palms of officials, politicians - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 739195.cms

Goa: Artists express solidarity with Anna Hazare protest - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 731572.cms

Bihar:

Hazare mania: Several Annas take birth in Bihar - http://www.dailypioneer.com/363560/Haza ... Bihar.html

With Anna Hazare’s fast generating mass euphoria across the country, hundreds of newborns are being been named “Anna” irrespective of their caste or community.

In the last six days in the Government hospital in Darbhanga alone 185 baby Annas have taken birth. Cutting across the gender barrier even girl children are being named Anna by their parents.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/363560/Haza ... Bihar.html

(Pioneer has been a staunch opponent of Anna, hence the pejoratives "Mania", "mass euphoria" etc. I just wanted to post the news but the abuse from Pioneer comes packaged with it.)

Bhavnagar, Gujarat: Now, medical college students support Anna Hazare - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 737183.cms

Delhi: Traders shut shops to show solidarity with Anna - http://www.hindustantimes.com/Traders-s ... 37708.aspx

Shimla shuts shops in Anna support - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 727290.cms

Mumbai railway staff rally for Hazare - http://gulfnews.com/news/world/india/mu ... e-1.857353

Haryana: Lokpal campaign: Khap activists reach Delhi - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 740884.cms

Haryana: Market name changed to back Anna Hazare - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 740903.cms

Total bandh in Sonipat to support Anna Hazare - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 740916.cms

Mumbai Dockworkers: No work at Sassoon for a day - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 741001.cms

UP, Haryana: Farmers' brigade buoyed by Anna's call, takes centrestage - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 741110.cms

Lucknow: City remains stead‘fast’ in its support for Anna - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 740675.cms

[ManishH]

If you read between the lines it looks more and more like the Chief VKS has threatened or issued a veiled threat to the Govt that army may support the people storming of the parliament or that it may step up the pressure to ask the Govt to go to people to ask for a fresh mandate.

Issuing veiled threats isn't considered OLQ - certainly not in Indian army. Gen. VK Singh meant exactly what he said.

[SwamyG]

Shows various fasting sites in India
http://peoplespeak.in/

IAC website:
http://www.indiaagainstcorruption.org/

[gakakkad]

Issuing veiled threats isn't considered OLQ - certainly not in Indian army. Gen. VK Singh meant exactly what he said.

common people , off with the CT's ... A coup d'etat can hardly be imagined in ROI , though I would rather fancy one...Provided the subsequent gov't are right winged , capitalists rather that left butted commies.....

[chetak]

NDTV is more supportive of Congress stand.

Well, a paid broker has to be supportive of his master,...however, Rajdeep S seems to be wanting to outshine NDTV in INC @$$-kissing...

Why do you think that the padma shris were given to these black hearted folk??

The rani has cleverly covered both english and hindi media!!

The goras and goris are still buying the natives for mere baubles!!

Having paid in advance, the piper is now calling the tune, as is his commercial right.

[Pranav]

Re the "Dalit" anti-Hazare march:

Protesters ‘bought’ for anti-Anna agitation

As Anna Hazare’s supporters continue to gather at the Ramlila Maidan, others who labelled the movement as ‘unconstitutional’ assembled at India Gate to protest against the anti-graft crusader on Wednesday.

The protesters, led by Udit Raj, ran down Anna’s movement and termed the Jan Lokpal Bill as against the basic tenets of democracy.

Some of the protesters, however, claimed they were participating because local touts had promised them money and free transport for marching from India Gate to Jantar Mantar.

“Some of the touts in our localities paid us in batches. We were paid Rs100 to Rs200 to be a part of this. We are in desperate need of the money, so it didn’t matter whether the protest was pro or anti Anna,” said Harish Sharma, who had been brought in from Haryana.

The agitators claimed that the entire march had been organised by detractors of Anna, and touts had been paid in lump sum to ‘buy’ protesters.

“Some of our local leaders got packets of money by people having political affiliations. A part was this was used to pay some of us. We were told to shout slogans against Anna,” said Rakesh Gupta, a protester.

However, organisers denied forcing people to join the movement.”Everyone gathered here has come of their own free will and no one has been forced in any way. These are rumours and not to be taken seriously,” said Om Hari, one of the organisers.

Some people who had gathered at the venue claimed that the organisers of the anti-Anna movement had misled them. “We were told this was a movement to support Anna Hazare, which is why we came,” said Om Shankar, from Ghaziabad.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... 37720.aspx

[skumar]

<snip>
To sum up:

1) Sonia Gandhi proved that Indian Parliamentary Democracy could be subverted, by creating a center of extra-constitutional power.

2) In Sonia Gandhi's darbaar, many unelected "civil society" types started exercising extra-constitutional power. But between them were struggles. Some became Insiders, some became Outsiders.

<snip>

Good stuff. However, I am not sure about the motivations sought to be ascribed to Kejriwal (not sure about others like Prashant Bhushan). From his history and actions, he seems very forthright. It is clear that Anna is the "heart" of the movement and Kejriwal and team are the "brains".

<snip>

Interesting but long article on Arvind Kejriwal
http://www.caravanmagazine.in/PrintThis ... oryId=1050

The reason why I feel that way about Kejriwal. Thanks pvshankar.

[Murugan]

Church is Firmly Behind Anna Hazari

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_a ... st_1579791

The Archbishop of Bombay, Cardinal Oswald Gracias, on Thursday reiterated support to Anna Hazare and asked him and the government to come to a solution.

The press statement read, "The health of Anna Hazare is causing great concern. I appeal strongly to Annaji to please give up your hunger strike."

The letter goes on to praise Anna for being successful in bringing the issue of corruption to centre stage. It also makes a categorical remark that the church firmly stands behind Anna Hazare.

"You have succeeded in convincing all that this issue must be addressed seriously and urgently. In order to allay any doubts about the church's stand on this issue, in the context of some reports in the media, I wish to reiterate that the church is fully with Anna Hazare in his campaign against corruption," the letter states.

It further states that: "I appeal to all: to the Government, to Anna Hazare and to others to be flexible.Please start talking effectively.

We have to eradicate corruption; we have to honour the Constitution. I appeal to all to work unitedly and selflessly within these parameters to arrive at a just solution that is good for the people of the country."

Catholic groups took out a rally slamming corruption.

[Murugan]

Janlokpal Bill debate unlikely today. Congi dhongi ke dhong (?). citing procedures

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Lokpal-de ... 37819.aspx

[Murugan]

I think the delay is for breaking fast of anna with pious hands, which is awaited.

[Murugan]

If you want to say something to Government, Come with 5 lakh people and conduct hunger strike for 10 days, then government will plan to talk about this.. But, for asking Vote, they will come to you unasking, unfasting and will bend backwards/forward, lean on their knees...

[rajanb]

Cross posted from humour thread; relevant

Sarkari Nai (Barber) ne baal kaat-te waqt Kapil Sibal se poochha - Saab ye Swiss bank wala kya lafda hai ?
Kapil Sibal shouted - Abey tu baal kaat raha hai ya inquiry kar raha hai ?
Nai (Barber)- Sorry saab.......bas zara aise hi poochh liya.

Agle din Pranab Mukerji se bal Kaat-te waqt poochha - Saab ye kala dhan kya hota hai ?
Pranab shouted - Tum humse ye sawaal qyun poochha ?
Nai - Sorry saab.....bas aise hi poochh liya.

Next day CBI interrogated the Nai - kya tum Baba Ramdev ke agent ho ?
Nai - Nahi saab ji.
CBI - To phir kya tum Anna ke agent ho ?
Nai - Nahin saab ji.
CBI - To phir tum baal kat-te waqt Congressi netaon se faltu k sawaal qyun karte rahte ho?
Naayi - Saab ji, na jane qyun Swiss bank aur Kaale dhan ke naam par in Congress walon ke baal khade ho jate hain, aur mujhko baal kaatne me aasani ho jati hai...... bas isiliye poochhta rehta hoon............

[IndraD]

Group clashes with policemen at VIP gate of Ramlila ground

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 742297.cms

Most of the experts (on TV and news paper) are commenting against Team Anna-they seem up set over the way team is negotiating and pressurising government to give assurance of passing 3 demands without discussion in parliament while a person is on verge of dying.

Also questions being raised what if tomorrow another group sits down with opposite demands. And is able to strike a chord with populace.

If AH will break fast after resolution is passed then this is some time away (may be a month or two?)

Very soon Rahul Gandhi will speak over AH.

[Murugan]

People are losing patience. Readers' comments under every delay-in-breaking-fast news item are becoming venomous laden with call for dire actions

[rvishwak]

yuvraj not able to speak in zero hour.................

[Pranav]

Here is Narayan Murthy commenting about Anna - he is quite supportive, but Sagarika keeps trying to twist his words.

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/178651/ann ... urthy.html

[Pranav]

Church is Firmly Behind Anna Hazari

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_a ... st_1579791

This is welcome, but with caution ... they first officially criticized Anna, and then maintained silence for a good long time. Spoke up only when govt showed signs of giving in.

[joshvajohn]

Congress Government should go for the anna's version with some realistic changes rather than pro-corrupt changes. Anna should also give up his fast soon after his version is placed in the parliament. If parliament does not pass this through, it represents the Indian mindset not to change things particularly corruption mindset. This is so childish but it is the way things are going to be unless congress and other parties make use of this. Even after lokpal unless there is a cultural change as a mass this corruption is not going to change. Here religion can play a major role in condemning corruption as an act against God and humanity. This can create a fear among people in terms of engaging corruption. Not only corruption but also our society needs to become conscious that individuals are responsible for community, state and nation at large. There should be accountability and transparency which can come out of innocence and frank heart which are yet to come into our mindset but are not impossible things to achieve. I think the young generation of India are more keen to opt for such mindsets which is a good sign.

[Aditya_V]

Make Lokpal a constitutional body: Rahul Gandhi

My Personal speculation: SG and RG appoint Navin CHawla to head this new constituional body

Rahul Gandhi finally broke his silence on the Anna Hazare fast and thanked Anna Hazare for highlighting the issue of corruption through his campaign.

Sharing the concern on corruption, Rahul Gandhi said the need of the hour was not just a strong Lokpal but to go a step beyond and make the Lokpal a constitutional body like the Election Commission.

RG is a person whom the PM has pubically stated in public "MUJHE ADESH DIYA HAI" and yet this guy is acting like as if his powers are like a Mango ABdul.

This is like David Headley and ISI condeming 26/11 attacks. i.e for public consumption onlee

[Murugan]

Cong MPs give Lokpal notice in LS

The modalities of the resolution and debate is reportedly being worked upon even as Anna Hazare's indefinite fast for a strong Lokpal entered the 11th day on Friday. Three Congress MPs Jagdambika Pal, Anu Tandon and Sanjay Nirupam have given notice to Lok Sabha Speaker Meira Kumar for Jan Lokpal Bill debate under Rule 193, which does not entail voting.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Cong-MPs- ... 37819.aspx

[Aditya_V]

Cong MPs give Lokpal notice in LS

The modalities of the resolution and debate is reportedly being worked upon even as Anna Hazare's indefinite fast for a strong Lokpal entered the 11th day on Friday. Three Congress MPs Jagdambika Pal, Anu Tandon and Sanjay Nirupam have given notice to Lok Sabha Speaker Meira Kumar for Jan Lokpal Bill debate under Rule 193, which does not entail voting.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Cong-MPs- ... 37819.aspx

hmmm. why am I suprised, No Ballot voting where every induvidual MP does have his stand exposed? Why am I not suprised.

[Theo_Fidel]

From facebook

I'm pretty sure that says 2.5 Million Franken. Why destroy your credibility so pointlessly. Still quite a bit of cash for 1990, esp. during the forex crisis.

During Bofors a reporter asked Rajiv point blank who took kick back is going to jail and and Rajiv is said to have turned white with fright. The big accounts were probably in Sonia's name.

[Pranav]

Make Lokpal a constitutional body: Rahul Gandhi

Constitutional body is well and good, but (i) set a quick time-frame, we can't wait for years, 3 or 4 months is more like it (ii) pass a resolution today saying that Anna's 3 points will be covered by the said body.