The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 27 Aug 2011 11:54

Theo_Fidel wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:Before we end up dealing with China, let us be strong internally first and agree that corruption needs to be tackled legally, with the help of a Jan Lokpal Bill,that will ensure strong action in years to come, and not a weak bill presented by Pranab Mukherjee.
I'll place a bet with you. Say we get lokpal that is agreeable to you, we will see if in 10 years, say 2021, if India moves into the top 10, no lets say top 20, no not even that, lets say top 50 in transparency internationals rankings. We are at present 87 out of 178.

I will then toast you to a beer/sharaab of your choice and turn around and tell everyone what an ass I was. If not you must do the same. What do you think.

On the other hand, say we achieve 90% female literacy to 10th grade. I can guarantee you our ranking will be in top 50. Just that one social indicator.

Theo, I do not drink, so both options won't work out.Betting is akin to gambling and I do not bet either. However if you insist, let us consider that the most agreeable bill ( as acceptable to Anna ji) is passed. In that case, by 2021, India will move up to top, not just top 10.I am optimistic, but we have to have many things in place before this happens.You can offer me Ginger Ale (non-alcoholic) and in you win, I will offer Ginger Ale to you.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 11:58

darshhan wrote:Theo fidel ji , I agree with you that corruption is not the foremost problems that India is facing.India has many other pressing challenges.For eg. Food, freshwater, energy supplies,malnutrtion,lack of vision etc.

But all this doesn't mean that we stop taking steps to resolve lower priority problems such as corruption.Let us recognize the work that Anna ji is doing and appreciate it even if we do not agree with him completely.Or there will come a day when no one will speak for Indians.

Theo might not agree, but most of these above problems spring from corruption. If resources are looted and cornered by a few, there is less of it to go around. Corruption is not a "lower priority problem", Darshhan. If this demon is not tackled, those other "higher priority" ones cannot be, ever.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 27 Aug 2011 12:04

Theo, I do not drink, so both options won't work out.Betting is akin to gambling and I do not bet either. However if you insist, let us consider that the most agreeable bill ( as acceptable to Anna ji) is passed. In that case, by 2021, India will move up to top, not just top 10.I am optimistic, but we have to have many things in place before this happens.You can offer me Ginger Ale (non-alcoholic) and in you win, I will offer Ginger Ale to you.

The problem is that India would achieve 90% literacy by 2021 in any case... So the bet is already nullified... Present literacy above age of 15 is 75 % . But median age of india in 2020 would be 20. So half the population of 2020 was not eligible for literacy data in the 2011 census . Primary school enrolment is almost 90%...

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 27 Aug 2011 12:06

darshhan wrote:Theo fidel ji , I agree with you that corruption is not the foremost problems that India is facing.India has many other pressing challenges.For eg. Food, freshwater, energy supplies,malnutrtion,lack of vision etc.

But all this doesn't mean that we stop taking steps to resolve lower priority problems such as corruption.Let us recognize the work that Anna ji is doing and appreciate it even if we do not agree with him completely.Or there will come a day when no one will speak for Indians.

Malnutrition -All the money allocated to local hospitals in villages,towns, govt. health clinics for nutrition to be provided to poor, is usurped by Sarpanches, CMOs, and their associates, from health Minister downwards. This is due to corrupt practices.

Food - Rice @ Rs 2 KG is siphoned off, sold at market price, while the villagers see a board (2KG Rice is Out of Stock). Again corruption is the cause for this.

Hygeine Garbage is picked up all over the world, in India sweepers appointed for this job are on paper only, and they do not actually do anything except collecting their wages once a month.So you see dirt all over the streets of unauthorised colonies.

Un-authorised colonies Permitting these colonies is done by MCD/DMC authorities. They collect Hafta for such colonies to exist. You must have heard of bulldozers razing such homes. This is again part of the same vicious cycle of corrupt practices.

Farmers committing suicideDue to inability to payback loans,farmers commit suicide.This reduces our GNP even though marginally.Loan related Laws are bypassed by rich farmers, whereas poor farmers just die.Their land is acquired by the rich farmers. All this is again part of the same cycle.

@Sumishi ji, I agree totally, this is the apex problem which if tackled honestly will reduce other problems eventually.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 27 Aug 2011 12:08

Theo might not agree, but most of these above problems spring from corruption. If resources are looted and cornered by a few, there is less of it to go around. Corruption is not a "lower priority problem", Darshhan. If this demon is not tackled, those other "higher priority" ones cannot be, ever.

IMHO it is the other way round... Corruption arises from other problems like license raj , poverty , illiteracy etc...If you simplify rules , educate the masses , build income generating industries that facilitate income growth , generate surplus power etc corruption will be automatically eliminated. The situation in the US between 1930-1960 was about as bad as the present Indian situation... They had mafia colluding with police etc...Only economic development helped US , same is true for us...

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 27 Aug 2011 12:12

gakakkad wrote:

Theo might not agree, but most of these above problems spring from corruption. If resources are looted and cornered by a few, there is less of it to go around. Corruption is not a "lower priority problem", Darshhan. If this demon is not tackled, those other "higher priority" ones cannot be, ever.

IMHO it is the other way round... Corruption arises from other problems like license raj , poverty , illiteracy etc...If you simplify rules , educate the masses , build income generating industries that facilitate income growth , generate surplus power etc corruption will be automatically eliminated. The situation in the US between 1930-1960 was about as bad as the present Indian situation... They had mafia colluding with police etc...Only economic development helped US , same is true for us...

It is a snake with its tail in the mouth.If the head is called corruption, all remaining affiliated maladies are the body and the tail.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Aug 2011 12:14

Theo_Fidel wrote:
shivajisisodia wrote:How young should the person be? I am over 50, and I consider Corruption as the #1 sickness plaguing India.
Over hunger/starvation and female infanticide. Or chronic joblessness and lack of health care. Or lack of quality schooling or brutish inflation. or lack of drinking water. Or even malaria which kills 100,000 every single year in India. Or preventable infectious diseases that kill well over 1 Million + every single year in India. How about Traffic fatalities about 100,000 every year. Or maternal mortality that kills 40,000 women every year.

There is anger over corruption but the poor would never put it at #1 problem. And don't give me the shill that corruption causes all these problems. Simply not true. We havn't invested in our people for a long time. Even simple traffic rules education is not done. Yet we expect corruption to disappear from our population.

It is absolutely true that corruption is causing all these problems ... there are plenty of schemes for poor - education, healthcare etc. There is plenty of money which could be used for roads. All of that is siphoned off. As a recent example, take the thousands of crores for rural healthcare siphoned off in UP, with multiple murders of doctors to cover up the trail.

There is a clear disconnect between the middle class and the truly poor on this issue. The middle class needs to grow up.

The poor do understand this. That is why the bulk of Anna Hazare's supporters are from the working classes.

It is interesting how secularists (in the Indian sense, which has nothing to do with the original meaning of the term) are so invested in depicting anger over corruption as purely a middle class phenomenon.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 27 Aug 2011 12:17

Food - Rice @ Rs 2 KG is siphoned off, sold at market price, while the villagers see a board (2KG Rice is Out of Stock). Again corruption is the cause for this.

Stop selling rise @ Rs 2/kg ... Put everything to the market... Give coupons to BPL.

Un-authorised colonies Permitting these colonies is done by MCD/DMC authorities. They collect Hafta for such colonies to exist. You must have heard of bulldozers razing such homes. This is again part of the same vicious cycle of corrupt practices.

Land reforms bill... Sell land marked "agricultural" @ market prices ... Land mapping... a lot of land in India is disputed... Use ISRO's help , conduct trigonometric land survey's , remove obsolete rules and regulations...

Hygeine Garbage is picked up all over the world, in India sweepers appointed for this job are on paper only, and they do not actually do anything except collecting their wages once a month.So you see dirt all over the streets of unauthorised colonies.

Sweepers are paid poorly..no incentive to work... Get the economy to grow better ...will solve this problem...pay them better... set up mechanism to ensure they work...

Farmers committing suicideDue to inability to payback loans,farmers commit suicide.This reduces our GNP even though marginally.Loan related Laws are bypassed by rich farmers, whereas poor farmers just die.Their land is acquired by the rich farmers. All this is again part of the same cycle.

Reform agricultural practices ... increase mechanisation , modern techniques...remove midlemen... alow corporate investment in agro..will solve this problem

Malnutrition -All the money allocated to local hospitals in villages,towns, govt. health clinics for nutrition to be provided to poor, is usurped by Sarpanches, CMOs, and their associates, from health Minister downwards. This is due to corrupt practices.

Taking the steps above will take care of this as well... BTW CMO only receives a salary of 20K . And most of them are preparing for pre-pg.. Pay them 1 lakh / month (can only be done by improving economic growth) and then expect them to stay in PHC...

You see all problems can be solved without lok pal... But I support anna movement because it stands for improved governance...Ideally he should have fought for liberalization and stopping of NREGA , stopping of license raj etc...

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Aug 2011 12:19

gakakkad wrote:

Food - Rice @ Rs 2 KG is siphoned off, sold at market price, while the villagers see a board (2KG Rice is Out of Stock). Again corruption is the cause for this.

Stop selling rise @ Rs 2/kg ... Put everything to the market... Give coupons to BPL.

All that is fine, but it is orthogonal to punishing corrupt Neta-Babu-Judges. Do both.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 12:26

gakakkad wrote: IMHO it is the other way round... Corruption arises from other problems like license raj , poverty , illiteracy etc...If you simplify rules , educate the masses , build income generating industries that facilitate income growth , generate surplus power etc corruption will be automatically eliminated. The situation in the US between 1930-1960 was about as bad as the present Indian situation... They had mafia colluding with police etc...Only economic development helped US , same is true for us...

Wonder of wonders, such pious principles (not questioning them, BTW) have not been the bedrock of our progress down the timeline since independence, as, face it, those in power have a stake in NOT simplifying rules, NOT educating the masses and so on. And WE common folks are not in any position of power to implement changes as you mention -- we have to go via them, and the viaduct is broken.
So as a prelude, you have to catch and shake them by the scruff of the neck!

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 27 Aug 2011 13:03

Right, those in power will not simplify rules, but then the "peoples movement" should be against such rules which forms the basis of corruption.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Aug 2011 13:07

Gentlemen,I must respectfully disagree.Corruption IS the biggest stubmling block to India's progress.The many other priorities listed can be solved if corruption is fought fiercely with a will by our leaders and babus.

Let me enumerate.For every govt. contract meant to alleviate the suffering of the poor,a huge chunk of the money spent ends up in the pockets of the politicos.Be it infrastructure,road widening,sharks fell trees wantonly as contracts allegedly go to the benamis of a CMs son.We saw in the CWG scam the absurd costs of street lighting thanks to Shelia Dixit.One can go on and on.I would say that in my experience,I do not think that more than 25% of govt. spending on projects,etc., goes into the project.The rest is all kickbacks.

If therefore our rulers and babus and their cronies only think as to how much they can loot,there is no chance at all for the poor whoi will be lucky to get crumbs from the tables of the rich and powerful.I can't be specific for obvious reasons,but the level of corruption is simply staggering and increasing by the day.The "rates" for getting one's legitimate work done in any govt. office,barring a few states perhaps,requires the greasing of every table in a dept.Lucky are those who live in states where their work is done quickly and efficiently at a price,because in many states,it is only taking and not giiving anything in return.When a babu is transferred the entire process of bribing his replacement has to happen.If you resist and refuse to pay,then in the immortal words at the beginning of the film Casablanca,where the refugees fleeing Europe from German ocupation waiting for their visas,you will have to "wait and wait and wait and wait..."!

Pranab is right when he says that the nation is at a crossroads.For the politicos that is.An angry nation will reject the Gandhian non-violent path in full measure if parliament today fillibusters the LokPal bill and tries through every means to derail the first step in establishing an anti-corruption mechanism that has teeth .The alternative is anarchy and chaos.Perhaps that is exactly what our rulers want so that they can enforce the danda mercilessly against the Indian people.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 13:29

Heard that the govt resolution is going to be forthcoming by evening. What's the latest?

rvishwak · Post by **rvishwak** » 27 Aug 2011 13:33

sumishi wrote:Heard that the govt resolution is going to be forthcoming by evening. What's the latest?

Times now flashing.. Anna to break fast by 6 PM.....

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 27 Aug 2011 13:55

Philip wrote: Pranab is right when he says that the nation is at a crossroads.For the politicos that is.An angry nation will reject the Gandhian non-violent path in full measure if parliament today fillibusters the LokPal bill and tries through every means to derail the first step in establishing an anti-corruption mechanism that has teeth .

That is probably the sole motive of these opportunistic, multi-faced, criminals, out to make a fast buck. However, once this resolution and fast is complete, and the LokPal bill is passed, I look forward to the electoral reforms which will put these criminals out of business for good. In any case after the economic reforms, a period of "domestic reforms" has started.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Aug 2011 13:59

Theo_Fidel wrote:If corruption is such a #1 problem why are we growing at 8%+. Keep in mind during the British era, when apparently India was clean as the driven snow, growth rate was often 1% or less.

on the contrary corruption in british era was even more pervasive, there just wasn't any public awareness of the issues. why do you think an India posting was a much sought after job ?
the stiff upper lipped brits didn't take bribes, just 'gifts' from the natives who wanted to be in his 'good books'. the Indian underlings took their cue from them and were as corrupt. our current system merely continues british era corruption.
find people who worked in those times and you will get enough stories about massive corruption, only many would not call it bribery due to cognitive dissonance.

coming to human development, the money spent on public healthcare, education, poverty alleviation etc is quite substantial. without corruption there is little doubt that the problems would be much smaller. remember rajiv gandhi's comment that only Re1 of 100 spent reaches the poor ?

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 27 Aug 2011 14:17

One of the ways to reduce corruption is to separate the legislature from the executive. People elect only law makers who will not hold any executive position which is the major source of corruption. People do anything for the chair and that is then recovered from corrupt practices.

It will have one more beneficial effect, reduce criminals in politics. If they are going to be just "lawmakers" without any scope to be a "minister", it will take away the incentive of many criminals who escape the law by fighting elections and becoming ministers. That will ensure genuine people with real interest in democracy and rule of law will come forward to fight elections.

That apart, judicial and police reforms are also a must.

The Lokpal is not going to cure the inherent flaws in the system that causes corruption.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Aug 2011 14:23

IndraD wrote:The seemingly perfect division of power between Sonia Gandhi, the politician, and Manmohan Singh, the policy wonk, has imploded, exposing a party riven by indecision and miscommunication.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 49229.html

Beautiful cover story on AH saga and congress response .

Anna may break his fast today according to Bhaiyyu ji (spiritual guru).

I have never understood how these gurus Bhaiyyu ji or Sri Sri become so omnipotent.

Super details...the most interesting thing which caught my eye was:

Some eager Congress MPs told the media that Rahul would go to the Ramlila Maidan with a glass of juice and a promise to raise Hazare's concerns with the Government. But it didn't happen.

Hmmmm.....isnt this what BRF had predicted as the endgame? So something happened which caused the entire game to exit the prepared script and go into tailspin?

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 14:32

sum wrote:Hmmmm.....isnt this what BRF had predicted as the endgame? So something happened which caused the entire game to exit the prepared script and go into tailspin?

When did BJP make its stand clear? Was it in the interim?

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 27 Aug 2011 14:36

They should send all these ministers including PM home! If Congress leadership can do this then there is a willingness to bring this country into order! Even if RG or his sister becomes a PM it does not matter but the present PM, FMs and IM of Congress party should be replaced though it is seen as a family business. Change is needed if some kind of democracy to exist in our country!

Even in opposition parties the previous generation of leadership should go and give ways to young people so that they will come to power. and will be guided in better ways by the experienced previous generation possibly in a right way though the young generation may lack a bit of diplomacy and political intelligence a bit. But this is where young educated people should come forward to lead this country in a selfless and sacrificial way changing things rather than accepting things as they are in their corrupt and disorderly ways without loosing sight of good things and values of the past.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 27 Aug 2011 15:45

sumishi wrote:

And WE common folks are not in any position of power to implement changes as you mention -- we have to go via them, and the viaduct is broken.
So as a prelude, you have to catch and shake them by the scruff of the neck!

Well , we caught them and shook them. But not to the extent we should have.. Why did no one press for dissolution of the gov't? Raja et al are implicating PM, does not he have the moral responsibility to step down? Why was not Maino issue raised ? Who is paying her medical bills ? (which could well be a couple of million dollars for all I know).

I liked the Anna protests. But it was not radical enough..And not all correct issue's were raised..

You want to understand the reality of India ? My dad tells me that in a recent KBC episode a girl from kashmir was called . She was not able to answer a simple question about ANNA HAZARE.

I we think that lok pal would succeed we are delusional

.I have taken trouble to search the Kaun banega crorepati episode on you tube. Please watch it. You ll know why lokpal cannot succeed.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Aug 2011 15:55

What where those lines in that immortal poem,"morte d'Arthur" by Alfred Lord Tennyson?

"The old order changeth yeilding place to new,
And God fulfils himself in many ways,
Lest one good custom should corupt the world"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Aug 2011 16:03

british era korruption esp wartime korruption was legendary - many a fortune back in UK and in india was made in those times. a contractor in my locality made his start for example in clearing trees and bush to make airfields in assam for the allies - he was paid certain sums for each size of tree ... well he went and charted for "5000 kosu trees" (taro) which are just small shrubs and the sahib paid him, probably keeping a tidy tithe for himself.
http://www.bigisland-bigisland.com/images/taro2.JPG

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Aug 2011 16:14

After stabbing us for 12 days, Pranab Mukherjee tells the Parliament that "we have amply demonstrated to Annaji about our seriousness to his cause" Hehehehehe

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Aug 2011 16:19

Theo_Fidel wrote:If corruption is such a #1 problem why are we growing at 8%+. Keep in mind during the British era, when apparently India was clean as the driven snow, growth rate was often 1% or less.

In the British era, the regime itself was based upon drinking the blood of the nation, be it salt taxes or textile tarriffs or engineered genocides and famines.

There was a better rate of growth post independence and particularly post liberalisation, but we are slipping again. Unless we restore transparent and verifiable voting, we will go back to the British era.

ashashi · Post by **ashashi** » 27 Aug 2011 16:23

gakakkad wrote: .I have taken trouble to search the Kaun banega crorepati episode on you tube. Please watch it. You ll know why lokpal cannot succeed.

Nothing unusual there. We cannot draw any conclusions from it.

Some people live in the world of their own, completely impervious to the larger issues in the society. We see such people not only in India, but in US too. People pay attention to issues important to them. Obviously for this lady, her family and her religion are important and movies/akshay kumar gives the necessary diversion.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 16:30

gakakkad wrote:...You want to understand the reality of India ? My dad tells me that in a recent KBC episode a girl from kashmir was called . She was not able to answer a simple question about ANNA HAZARE.

I we think that lok pal would succeed we are delusional

.I have taken trouble to search the Kaun banega crorepati episode on you tube. Please watch it. You ll know why lokpal cannot succeed....

Well, I remember in the first KBC series way back, a participant (BSc gold medallist in physics) was asked a question somewhat around these lines: What is the decimal equivalent of 1/100. Four choices (decimal numbers) were given, and the gold medallist made a wrong call.
Hence India is absolute zeerrow in science and technology!

Where we differ is that you think the Anna movement is not radical enough, while i think it is a good start within the parameters of democracy.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 27 Aug 2011 16:35

http://daily.bhaskar.com/article/NAT-TO ... .html?HT3=

Amir Khan addresses crowd at Ramlila ground key points-

Urges Anna to end fast as passing resolution in LS is a long process
Asks people to select good MPs in election
Asks people not to let corruption become a way of life

Key points of Sushma Swaraj speech in LS

Leader of Opposition in Lok Sabha, Sushma Swaraj says:
- It's a historic debate, let's do it peacefully.
- Time has come to pass a strong Lokpal Bill.
- People of India are waiting for Parliament's decision.
- The Lokpal Bill presented by the government is toothless.
- Govt never took up debate on the misuse of CBI.
- There is sense of outrage among the masses.
- The PM rarely speaks, but when he does he goes unheard.
- We agree that CBI should come under the ambit of the Lokpal.
- Rahul Gandhi's speech was not within the norms of Zero Hour.
- We agree that the CBI should come under the ambit of Lokpal

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Aug 2011 16:39

CBI and IB need to be defanged, purged of regime loyalists, cleaned up and retrained to serve the indian people rather than political rulers.

Reddy · Post by **Reddy** » 27 Aug 2011 16:46

When we look at the corruption in India at all stages, the situation looks really hopeless. I just read a letter from an Indian reader in a singapore newspaper… where this guys points out that he left country because of corruption and of course, lot of other desis agree with him and say they did the same and they love the country and will return when everything is fine etc. This is typical "someone else's problem" effect.

Keeping my cynicism aside- in my younger days when me and my like minded friends used to get drunk, we used to draw this elaborate plans to set the country right (i am sure some of you guys did that sometime or the other). In one of such pointless discussions we came across some theories that are related to social networking and such. I don't remember the details but, according to these theories any network has some key nodes and if you remove those nodes the whole network will collapse. Anyhow, our all night boozing and discussion on corruption lead us to bumping off couple of nodes to set the whole system on track. So, what i am trying to say is… the situations is not as bad as it appears to be. The problem is not top-to-bottom NOR does it just lie at the bottom or at the top as it generally appears to be. I am sure if some sane, relatively knowledgeable, people sit around can find what needs to be done. However, the issue is implementation - it is impossible to break this networks in a democratic setup. What we need is not Anna kind of people but someone like LKY, ex-premier of Singapore (frankly i hate him), someone who is ruthless self-centric and identifies his survival and prosperity with well being of his country and someone who bends rules of democracy to get things done.

PS: LKY, in most cases, is no better than any third rate Indian politician. Where he differs is, he knows his well being is linked to his country. In other words, LKY is like the good bacteria in your intestines that keeps its host healthy so that it can have a good time. On the other hand, most of our politicians are like cancer that wants to multiply and prosper at the expense of its host not realising that it'll die when its host dies.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 27 Aug 2011 16:49

Breaking news-Government agrees for voting and resolution

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 38531.aspx

At the moment Lalu Yadav giving his (usual) hilarious speech in Lok Sabha

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Aug 2011 17:36

Like the auto wala says, he shall collect his fare per meter only after the bill is passed.. and he continues to do double corruption now to compensate for a future low low.. and all the politicians are busy in high high transactions to keep their nets safe.

I am sure, this is not like a tax increase after budget that goes in immediate effect. The bill will not be immediate effect, where the thieves will have enough time to keep the treasures and loot safe from public.

Now, after a decent bill, the public must go after the public officials.. over and under the counter bribes can't happen even in a dream.. they have to revolt and go after quit corruption drive. ask for loop holes be plugged.. computerize land records, and have verifications and validations of all processes via computerized systems. go after the software intensive life style, where mundane activity and corruptions can be found and easily available to public view online.

govt officials must desist in accepting or asking bribes. people should never give them under any gun/knife or goonda point. land grabbers engage rowdies and goondas to take over legally acquired lands. A system of corrections is a long way to go, but must begin immediate effect. corruption in utilities - electricity, water, telephone must come to ZERO in a flip of a second.

Corruption in educational institutions, public health care, transportation, communication, living and housing, infrastructure, sports, agriculture, industries, and all gov and public affairs needs to be tackled by revolting against corruption.

people must take initiatives.. for this we need a billion nod for anna.. it just does not stop with the bill being passed, which is of course the starting point.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 27 Aug 2011 17:40

Theo_Fidel wrote:
And don't give me the shill that corruption causes all these problems. Simply not true. We havn't invested in our people for a long time. Even simple traffic rules education is not done. Yet we expect corruption to disappear from our population.

There is a clear disconnect between the middle class and the truly poor on this issue. The middle class needs to grow up.

It is talk like this that provides succor to the dirty politicians and babus and all the corrupt. This kind of talk warms the hearts of those who choose to rob us, day in and day out. While they are stuffing their rooms with rupees, from floor to ceiling, and laughing loudly while doing it, they also point to the kind of rhetoric mentioned above and in between laughter say, "poor idiot, but what a useful idiot, let us give him the Padma awards next time, for his deep caring for the poor and a lifetime devoted to social justice".

It is simply factually wrong that "we havent invested in our people for a long time". When did we last invest in our people then ? You mean the Nehru ji invested in our people ? The British Government ? Wait, it was Aurangzeb, bring him and his ilk back. The government of India in the last twenty five years has allocated staggering sums of monies for education, subsidy schemes of all hue, social schemes, employment schemes, free food schemes, free electricity schemes, relaxation of law and order so people have a free for all on national resources schemes, not to mention screw the honest Indians schemes. The country runs a huge fiscal deficit to a point that it does not have money to spend on national defense.

Normally I am very open minded and would hesitate to make any allegations without solid evidence. But it is so crystal clear that corruption is the root of all our problems, that even a blind man can see it. This leads me to believe that those who still dont see it, circumstantially, are either themselves deeply invested in corruption or they dont live in India. There cannot be a third logical possibility.

As far as the traffic rules education, if a person in India actually honestly is made to go through the actual process of getting a drivers license, he would know the traffic rules. But that never happens. The Motor Vehicles authorities are one of the most corrupt places in India. The same Indian when he goes abroad all of sudden knows all about traffic rules and follows them. But that is because as soon as he lands in a foreign country, he gets a thorough and detailed education in traffic rules. It is called a $ 250 ticket.

rvishwak · Post by **rvishwak** » 27 Aug 2011 18:10

varun gandhi making a speech in loksabaha.... much more confident and forthright...very impressive

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 27 Aug 2011 18:27

Laloo Yadav speech in LS-
Laloo tooak a dig at Anna's fast asking how is it possible for a 74 yr old man to fast for 12 days+ and then give speech too , this should be investigated. (by doc)

Lalu Prasad Saturday said fasting Anna Hazare was being misled by the people surrounding him, including former top cop Kiran Bedi who was eyeing polls.
"We won't allow the supremacy of parliament to be moved by an inch," he said.

"Anna is being misled by the people around him. Kiran Bediji, if you want to contest the elections, go,"

"Kejriwal is teaching us. Tell him standing committee is a mini-parliament."

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Aug 2011 18:29

Mass Movement and Lessons Learned By Walter Vieira, management Guru who writes for Frontier India

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 27 Aug 2011 18:49

rvishwak wrote:varun gandhi making a speech in loksabaha.... much more confident and forthright...very impressive

his speach was very good. Now Schindia jr. is making too much of drama. It is just INC Vs BJP stuff.

It is all about Sonia jai ho and Rahul Jai ho.

It is total nautanki.

rvishwak · Post by **rvishwak** » 27 Aug 2011 18:56

Muppalla wrote:
rvishwak wrote:varun gandhi making a speech in loksabaha.... much more confident and forthright...very impressive
his speach was very good. Now Schindia jr. is making too much of drama. It is just INC Vs BJP stuff.

It is all about Sonia jai ho and Rahul Jai ho.

Instead of speaking on corruption and Jan Lokpal bill, he is just praising sonia & rahul... UPA did this & that,sonia did so good... her NAC is just the best...and rahul baba.........man if he would have been US citizen he could have been their president..yuvraaj is so talented.

When Scindia jr. ended his speech he said jai hind.... it should have been jai sonia and that would have summarized his 20 mins of blaberring.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 27 Aug 2011 19:01

I see this 'awakening' a good sign. Part of our growing up as a democracy. While we expect 'accountability' from leaders, there is some responsibility on people's shoulders too. People have been speaking up and questioning the leaders for decades. Unfortunately, with a large population of ours, it requires such mass movement to gain traction and catch attention. Else, the voices are like the bubbles in our coffee tumbler or beer mug, pops off after a while. MKG and the Independence Movement had the backing of the people. Any leader is effectively only if he has followers. Else he can do zilch. AH probably would not have estimated the kind of support he has garnered; it shows us if there is the right vision championed by the right individual, people will join as a force.

MKG and Co without the aid of modern technologies, had to travel through out the country and spend many years to gain traction. AH and this movement used the 24/7 media - TV, twitter, blogs ityadi to reach people faster.

Good for our democracy, even if JLB does not get passed. For those who argue things will remain the same, I say "You are wrong". This is like a baby who has taken a first step; even if it falls down and goes back to crawling; it knows it has to walk pretty soon. People now know, they can question their leaders. Indians have done it so admirably in a peaceful manner. No violence or destruction like in Africa or West Asia.

It should give us all goosebumps; democracy is messy and ugly. But if the people's voices are heard - then it is beautiful the best we have so far. Maybe in the future we might develop a better system.

ps: The Youngistan Jyotiraditya Scindia is a shameless Sonia stooge. He seems to be so bright, yet his brilliance could not break him away from the dynasty. He gives credit to the awakening to Sonia. Wow.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 27 Aug 2011 19:03

rvishwak wrote:...When Scindia jr. ended his speech he said jai hind....

He said jai hind!! OMG!! O my Gosh!! Communal!! RSSSSS! Disturbing the plurality of the nation!!