The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

[Jarita]

There are long term serious implications of the Parliament bowing down to Ramlila maidan pressure. It is true that the MP's and their parties are responsible for this situation in the first place. But what it has now created is a peculiar situation from which Indian parliamentary democracy of this phase will never really recover. I had suggested for some time that the Indian rashtra was weakening. It was showing an increasing awareness of its own weakening powers through various reactions of its wings - judiciary was one instance.

Since the Parliament did not adopt this "resolution" without mounting "popular pressure" outside the Parliament, it shows itself up as reluctant. What AH has done is the classic two-option onlee method, I have always put forward as the test for any regime or position. He has forced the government/party/regime to choose sides. In this case the regime itself stands more exposed than opposition - which have been agitating on this issue for some time. But the failure of the Opposition to force the issue - overall makes it publicly established that the Parliament itself is ineffective to force such issues even if there are "good" people in there.

By accepting the "resolution" after pussyfooting, the regime finally establishes that the rashtra in its current form is actually no longer effective as an institution. In the future, more and more such issues will be forced. The regime will get increasingly defensive and go for personal retribution.

AH's movement had to draw on "Hindu" religious motifs underneath, just like MKG had felt the need to in order to mobilize large numbers. Even through the "secular" spin, those who felt threatened by the mobilization - pushed the label of "Hindu" Right-authoritarian-etc on him just as the Brits spinned on MKG's movement in 1921. In so many ways its a repeat. But remember that movement was ultimately splintered and withdrawn becuase of the withdrawal of the "other" religion. Moreover the Brits could channelize the religious "opposition" into a separate politics altogether. The Congress and pseudo-kraantivaadis like Laloo or Mulayam or Mayavati - now represent the rashtra in 2011, just as the Brits represented rashtra in 1921 - 90 years ago. They will go for the splitting of mobilization based on communal and other subidentities - just as the Brits did.

In the end, MKG's movement went into political wilderness for the next 7 years. Rashtra managed to divide Indian society, and activate certain religious subidentities, who wanted separate rashtras based on those subidentities. It does not have to be just "Islamic" pureland again - it could be a Dalitstan, in addition to a Haritstan.

I would anticipate such moves in due course.

The attempt is definitely being made. The creation of the Dalit identity in the last few decades is like an insurance policy in this direction. There are several identities created which have the church and western interests as primary movers (Dravidian, Dalit, Maoist). After one political movement of the middle east managed to gouge territory from India, it is time for the others to try and claim some in light of turbulance. In the event one fails (like Dravidian) then the other identities remains as a back-up. These faux identities need to be watched and managed. The media and elite have been successfully bought over or brainwashed by these ideologies (liberation theology) even if they don't claim conversion.

[Dhiman]

I
The way the government eventually capitulated says that Parliament as an institution of representative democracy is in the ICU, fast heading toward expiry. Whether enough reforms can be put in to preserve it remains to be seen.

The problem is that executive and legislative branches of the government are pretty much one and the same for all practical purposes. As a result both these branches of government are currently dominated by the same set of people.

I tend to think that things would have never gotten as bad they have, if legislature was truely separate and independent from the executive branch just like the judiciary is.

[Pranav]

The _***** of elite corruption, or why they really don't want the Jan Lokpal Bill - http://www.moneylife.in/article/the-por ... 19283.html

The numbers are, to put it simply, huge. By one estimate, provided by the political and economic calculations of a particular High Commission that should know, the leakage is in the region of more than Rs1,200 crore a day. The thought itself is mind-boggling; what kind of theft generates this kind of numbers, even if it is to be reduced by half? ...

For example, for every day that the progress can be delayed, the payout will be enormous. Goes without saying. And the risks taken, politically, suddenly become worth it.

http://www.moneylife.in/article/the-por ... 19283.html

[vera_k]

Yes you have to infiltrate both sides for maximum returns from strategy planning.

This article in the Pioneer says the problem is the Prime Minister himself. Reminds me of all those conspiracy theories about his appointment.

Buck never stops with him

[Anantha]

The success of the whole operation from the 16th to today makes you feel it has been planned rather well.
I have a feeling that the Ramdev fast may have been a trial baloon to test the extent to which Congis will go. The expected attest on 16th morning and the milage that Team Anna got out of the Tihar jail episode shows how cleverly they turned the tables on the Govt. Without Ramdev going ahead as a sacrificial pawn this may not have been possible.
The only point Team Anna miscalculated was demanding Aug31st as the final date for passing the Lok Pal bill which was virtually impossible as even the RTI law had more than 100 amendments.

[sumishi]

...The only point Team Anna miscalculated was demanding Aug31st as the final date for passing the Lok Pal bill which was virtually impossible as even the RTI law had more than 100 amendments.

A simple example of bargaining which we do with vendors. The vendor begins with a high (u begin with a low) and then after some haggling a compromise middle is reached.

[Anantha]

A clear white paper needs to be established by Team Anna/Like minded people on what to do when a govt servant asks for a bribe. How to get your job done and how to get that person caught.

[chetak]

The success of the whole operation from the 16th to today makes you feel it has been planned rather well.
I have a feeling that the Ramdev fast may have been a trial baloon to test the extent to which Congis will go. The expected attest on 16th morning and the milage that Team Anna got out of the Tihar jail episode shows how cleverly they turned the tables on the Govt. Without Ramdev going ahead as a sacrificial pawn this may not have been possible.
The only point Team Anna miscalculated was demanding Aug31st as the final date for passing the Lok Pal bill which was virtually impossible as even the RTI law had more than 100 amendments.

Baba Ramdev seems to have been used more like a sacrifical goat.

[Pranav]

[Anantha]

...The only point Team Anna miscalculated was demanding Aug31st as the final date for passing the Lok Pal bill which was virtually impossible as even the RTI law had more than 100 amendments.

A simple example of bargaining which we do with vendors. The vendor begins with a high (u begin with a low) and then after some haggling a compromise middle is reached.

If that is the case it was a very poor negotiation, they did not start high at all, now there is no timeline (as of now) to get the Lokpal passed.

[sumishi]

If that is the case it was a very poor negotiation, they did not start high at all, now there is no timeline (as of now) to get the Lokpal passed.

In bargaining, the weaker party always suffers more.

[gakakkad]

So, you believe those people were acting stupid?

I don't question the stupidity of these Americans... If you follow my discussion on the American health system in Nukkad , you ll realise that I am not a particularly big fan of them..

Having said that , stupid or not , you can't exploit an American (at least not the way Indians can be)... While Indians can be exploited with impunity...regardless of their education level... Even if the Indians can sing the national anthem and know that Aurangzeb met his 72 in the year 1707 , an Indian is less likely to be able to use his fundamental rights... My acquaintances looked for illegal Mexican immigrants to do their dirty household work cheaply... as using the Americans would have been lot more expensive... Because the Mexicans fear deportation and they are unaware of their rights...An american pandu can't collect haftaa...not that he is an epitome of ethics... but he knows the consequence of doing so..

In a government hospital in India you can badly exploit a patient. I don't even want to mention what is done... because it ll make doctors look like paki's ... Do that to a homeless American who can barely spell his name...And you might have to speed dial your lawyer...forget patients even resident doctors can be exploited ...They can be beaten up by their professors ,as if they retaliate or complain they ll fail in exams . They can be made to do housework of their professors...clean toilets etc...none of this is exaggerated ...even the Shiv sir would concur with me...But in the US if a resident doc is exploited by his attending a mere email to the acgme will set things straight... I don't see how cramming the list of Indian kings from ashoka to bahadur shah zaffar helped the resident..MCI has a similar facility... But it is seldom used by the Indian resident docs.

The reason why I posted the example of the KBC episode is because it was shot last week , and girl in question was not illiterate . In fact she studied to grade 10 ... So as per the Indian definition she received a secondary school level education... And the movement is at its peak.. One could hardly imagine an Indian unaware about it...But there you have it...similar survey's done before showed that 30 % of Indians were unaware of the whole stuff...

[ashashi]

So, you believe those people were acting stupid?

I don't question the stupidity of these Americans... If you follow my discussion on the American health system in Nukkad , you ll realise that I am not a particularly big fan of them..

That question was directed at shivajisisodia.

[Patni]

Arvind Kejriwal in his address now pointedly said how currently parliament is not really allowed to stay supreme as "party high command" wields control and power. He seems to answer all the points of critics well. Just said Right to recall and reject, judicial reforms, & emphasis on more participation in law creation with feedbacks at village levels and issue of recovering Indian wealth from Swiss banks etc. will be taken up.

[Sumeet]

BRF ahead of curve. Who said that this guy seems like a Congressi mole implanted into Team Anna.

Swami Agnivesh Exposed ........................................

Talking to Kapil Sibal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlbrlfhqVKo

Kiran Bedi Responds on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/#!/thekiranbedi/stat ... 3695592448

"@Gopal_US yes I did. He was under suspicion all the time. We kept warning him against these actions. Yet! Nature gave us this evidence!"

[Sumeet]

I just don't want this man anywhere near those who are fighting for a better India

[abhishek_sharma]

Sushma Swaraj speech in Lok Sabha on Lokpal Bill

[Pranav]

Swami Agnivesh Exposed ........................................

Talking to Kapil Sibal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlbrlfhqVKo

[Dilbu]

I would like to hear that Varun Gandhi speech. Any youtube links available?

[Sumeet]

thanks for doing that Pranav. I tried but I couldn't embed it.

[suryag]

So now Gujarat has got a lok ayukta i feel NaMo would have cases foisted against him and members of his government to keep him off balance and to pre-empt his elevation to a prospective PM candidate

[Pranav]

thanks for doing that Pranav. I tried but I couldn't embed it.

this is the way you do it -

Code: Select all

[youtube]MlbrlfhqVKo[/youtube]

[chackojoseph]

So now Gujarat has got a lok ayukta i feel NaMo would have cases foisted against him and members of his government to keep him off balance and to pre-empt his elevation to a prospective PM candidate

Now with Lokpal, mataji and yuvraj will also be under check as a MP and as a PM. Congress didn't want PM to be on the Lokpal because the crow will be questionable. So far they have managed to steer the crow away from the hassels.

Biggest casuality of the entire incident is the Congress youth brigade. The movement shows that India has Young turks who are not exactly the sons and daughters of the political class

[Kanson]

Few thoughts /questions on Anna's success. The masters of color revolutions must be studying his case now to implement their agenda within India ( And China) . Time to be more vigilant about them and their Bharre ke Tatto RNIs. Cleaning corrupt practices will lay down the foundation for long term clean governece , political /reform and freedom as well economic growth but do we now get the black money back from Swiss accounts and how fast ?In this uncertain time, The one and half T will go long way in consolidating India' position in global community of nations. May be it calls for new thread to figure out the expected or actual gains from the movement as well chartering new course of India from here .

+100

In the era of Twitter and FB crowds, there is room for anything. India has to be prepared for multiple types of colors.

Assembling crowds for the sake of gathering is nothing new to Indian culture. Every political gatherings/meetings had that characteristics.

It is not organizing the crowd but sustaining them toward the focus is the key issue. Manipulation through Twitter/FB can bring gatherings. But legitimacy cannot be brought about through twitter/fb. It has to be demonstrated.

Now if any survey to found out if the people assembled becoz of Anna or becoz of the cause, corruption, in my judgement, majority would both. There must be proper cause where everyone feels they are part of. And second, Anna movement showed genuineness and sincerity and that brought legitimacy to the movement. Though corruption is being practiced for decades, not everyone attempted to launch such movement. Another reason, this movement got such massive appeal is fault of this government. So many blunders. Price rise/2G/CWG etc. The most stupidest blunder, I consider, made by this government, is allowing the vegetable/commodity price rise exponentially last year and government did nothing to stop the rise. Agri ministry under Pawar stood still and PMO had to intervene to solve the crisis even though there is enough mechanism with the Government that do regularly fore warn such outcomes. I don't have to explicitly add that somebody made huge fortune in that.

[Aditya_V]

BRF ahead of curve. Who said that this guy seems like a Congressi mole implanted into Team Anna.

Swami Agnivesh Exposed ........................................

Talking to Kapil Sibal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlbrlfhqVKo

Kiran Bedi Responds on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/#!/thekiranbedi/stat ... 3695592448

"@Gopal_US yes I did. He was under suspicion all the time. We kept warning him against these actions. Yet! Nature gave us this evidence!"

Swami Agnivesh-> Maoist Supporter-> Close to Congress High Command-> things keep getting Murkier.

[Aditya_V]

So now Gujarat has got a lok ayukta i feel NaMo would have cases foisted against him and members of his government to keep him off balance and to pre-empt his elevation to a prospective PM candidate

Some Big states lacking a Lokayukta are Maharastra( this I belive is India's most corrupt State Govt.), AP, Rajastan, TN and Kerala. Why no one wants a Lokayukta? Especially in Maha

[uddu]

Someone save the Agnivesh Video please. Let's expose the triator who was the mole in the Anna camp feeding information to the master. So the congress party knew everything about what's happening in the Anna camp. Each and everything. It was only Anna who won the war for all of us, be keeping his views secret and holding on for the people of India, even when the camp has given up. Bowing before this great man for his determination and his love for this country.

[IndraD]

So now Gujarat has got a lok ayukta i feel NaMo would have cases foisted against him and members of his government to keep him off balance and to pre-empt his elevation to a prospective PM candidate

Some Big states lacking a Lokayukta are Maharastra( this I belive is India's most corrupt State Govt.), AP, Rajastan, TN and Kerala. Why no one wants a Lokayukta? Especially in Maha

maharashtra does have lokayukta

http://www.indlaw.com/guest/DisplayNews ... A406BF36B0

but what we need is effective lokpal

Karnatka did have a lokayukta (fresh example) and corruption happened.

[skumar]

Yenn Yarr Eye sitting in Dubai declaring milestones in Indian democrazy? No maturity-vachurity saar, and the yooth will not mature overnight, this is the same yooth that voted the KanGrezz back into power in Mumbai barely 6 months after 26-11. Incidentally it was the same Luxuryking countryface who delivered the PM's message to 1000-E.
With all due respect to fellow Abdul Dilbuji, let us not get carried away with what is essentially just a resolution that was passed in parliament, just like many others like POK and Aksai Chin are parts of India.
Nobody gained nothing here except perhaps 1000-e who might just win a lok sabha seat if he chooses his constituency well. Others who supported him including the bollywood fools will find themselves at the wrong side of this vindictive sarkar that made life difficult for people like V Anand just because he shared stage with NaMo

It is easy to be cynical but 1000-e has done more than we can ever do writing 1000-e khats. If a better bill than the govt draft is enacted and it reduces one CWG or indeed catches one corrupt officer or makes one corrupt person think twice, it would have done more than we have ever dreamed.

Zero chance of AHji contesting an election; so this vindictive sarkar really has no hold on him and that is his strength. After seeing millions supporting him, no one can really ask him to seek a mandate either.

LPB is a black-and-white issue, support can and did cut across all boundaries. But there is so much one can do with black-and-white issues as well.

[rahulm]

From the Lalu's parliament speech Youtube video:

Early on, when he is being heckled he clearly says to the hecklers "Suniye, Apno ko dubao mat" (Listen to me, don't rebel against your own" after which the hecklers shut up.

All for one, one for all across party lines. The coming together of chors to fight against their common enemy - the people of India. Applaud the unity and sense of purpose.

Shri Yadav would not have had any issue with the media if they were pro government 24/7. Do these people realise the media is the 4th estate in a democracy? Their entire mindset is we the raja you are our praja and whatever riches or poverty you live in, in fact, your entire existence is due to our munificence so you must be thankful to us, you ungrateful wretches.

We have succeeded in installing kingdoms (jagir's) in a democracy.

I flee , Pune, actually Maharashtra a little before, after and during every Ganesh festival to avoid the noise, pollution and traffic snarls when Pune's already low live-ability index dips further and devotion mania goes through the roof.

I am currently in Benares and there is terrific admiration and support for AH and an anti government (not just anti UPA) sentiment - from Sadhu's on the ghats! One such Sadhu gave a me a rousing speech that would do AH proud. AH's movement has moved even the immaterial world.

[skumar]

http://www.moneylife.in/article/the-por ... 19283.html

+1.

[habal]

The most stupidest blunder, I consider, made by this government, is allowing the vegetable/commodity price rise exponentially last year and government did nothing to stop the rise. Agri ministry under Pawar stood still and PMO had to intervene to solve the crisis even though there is enough mechanism with the Government that do regularly fore warn such outcomes. I don't have to explicitly add that somebody made huge fortune in that.

They have already taken hefty haftas from vegetable middlemen. Then it's the turn of these dalals to make money, now both parties are bound by the honour of thieves. The govt can make some noise but it won't do anything drastic. I blame it squarely on top leadership aka Sonia Gandhi.

Countries can grow while corrupt, no doubt. But what happens is that when you increase energy prices & food prices simultaneously you have an extremely corrupt governance system, the people are going to flare at the slightest spark. This is the lesson for the govt of India. In such a situation something has to give and will give.

[Kanson]

^ Not only that. Knowing very well there was disruption due to monsoon, and there was shortage and price was rising, this government issued export license at that period. Such a cruelty. Remind us the period of British India and Bengal famine.

So I think, nothing wrong, when Anna movement tries to label this as Second Freedom Struggle.

[Kanson]

BRF ahead of curve. Who said that this guy seems like a Congressi mole implanted into Team Anna.

Swami Agnivesh Exposed ........................................

Talking to Kapil Sibal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlbrlfhqVKo

Kiran Bedi Responds on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/#!/thekiranbedi/stat ... 3695592448

"@Gopal_US yes I did. He was under suspicion all the time. We kept warning him against these actions. Yet! Nature gave us this evidence!"

We all expecting that one day or other. Well, I happened at the right time.

[Kanson]

Swami Agnivesh-> Maoist Supporter-> Close to Congress High Command-> things keep getting Murkier.

Actually it is very open. You can read the local media news and have to read the local charter of Maoist and their collusion with Congress supporters. When Doggy singh raised hue and cry against Maoist operation, it is actually fight between two factions in the congress.

[skumar]

The ruling coalition has been brought to the table screaming and kicking and the people have seen them scream and kick in this 24 X 7 show. They have to act now like they have enjoyed it. Let us enjoy the act. Some of the chamchas will now make it seem like it all happened since the sagacity of the Rajmata was missing. And we have seen how smart the prince was - when asked by a Times Now reporter as to why it took him so long to come up with this "gamechanging" idea of making the LokPal a constitutional entity, all he could say was something along the lines of "I take my own time to think". It is sad to think that this was the best that the "young Turks" of the Congress advising the prince could come up with, for a question that they should have seen coming.

Ironically, it is now upto to Abhishek Manu Singhvi, being Chairman of the Standing Committee, to derail this process and engineer a weak LokPal while trying to stay true to his father's proud legacy which Arun Jaitley pointed out in the Rajya Sabha. I would be surprised if he does not quit the Committee which now has to face public scrutiny, and more importantly Team Anna, assorted NGOs and the entire media, while drafting a Bill that makes sure that the G billions (or is it now trillions) are safe and they keep coming.

The government would look to support from the BSP MPs - one idiot had the gall to say in the Lok Sabha that there is no mention of the SCs/STs in the bill. Now really, how can you bring the SCs/STs separately into an anti-corruption bill? 6 months jail for a guilty SC/ST officer and 5 years otherwise or better still, dismissal from service for a guilty non-SC/ST officer and a promotion for every similar offense for a SC/ST officer??

Like AH said, the job is only half done. The distrust between the opposing entities in this battle is palpable. The government's intent is clear from the first government draft, viz the JokePal, that was placed before the Standing Committee. The ground between the JokePal and the JLPB is strewn with minefields - conniving authors, spies, anti-national forces and corrupt stakeholders including many in the opposition. Good luck to Abhishek and his team!

[ShyamSP]

BRF ahead of curve. Who said that this guy seems like a Congressi mole implanted into Team Anna.

Swami Agnivesh Exposed ........................................

Talking to Kapil Sibal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlbrlfhqVKo

Kiran Bedi Responds on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/#!/thekiranbedi/stat ... 3695592448

"@Gopal_US yes I did. He was under suspicion all the time. We kept warning him against these actions. Yet! Nature gave us this evidence!"

We all expecting that one day or other. Well, I happened at the right time.

Huh? Faker Agnivesh (Vepa Shyam Rao, Telugu guy from NE Andhra Pradesh) was discussed several times and many years ago too.

Question is: Did Agnivesh use Anna team or Anna team use Agnivesh or were they part of some glorious plan?

[habal]

^ Not only that. Knowing very well there was disruption due to monsoon, and there was shortage and price was rising, this government issued export license at that period. Such a cruelty. Remind us the period of British India and Bengal famine.

the quantum of hafta must have been so large that they have to agree to every monstrosity.

[Philip]

Ugh! the pic of slimeball Kap Sib displaying the national flag upside down is unthinkable! Many years ago I was shown the original certificate of credentials that a new head of mission was to present to the Pres. of a certain country.The lettering was both in Hindi and in English.You know why? Aeons ago so the story goes,when Mrs.Pandit (I think) was appointed India's ambassador to the Soviet Union,on seeing the document,then written only in English,Stalin sarcastically was supposed to have asked if India had no official language of its own! The credentials were post haste suitably altered and only then did the great man receive our envoy.

[skumar]

Question is: Did Agnivesh use Anna team or Anna team use Agnivesh or were they part of some glorious plan?

I am sure that Kejriwal, Bedi and team would have "constructively used" Agnivesh to misinform the government.