The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Anantha »

chetak wrote:
Anantha wrote:Regarding the Naxalite-->Agniwaste --> Congress connection
Those following the Red menace thread would remember 2-3 years ago when Andhra police/commandos surrounded a secret hideout of an all India meet-who is who of Naxals and maoists, orders came from Delhi to allow the 300 odd leaders to get away.
Sirjee,

Was agnivesh in that meet?

Or did he arrange the getaway?
The news report said 300 top maoist/naxal leaders, did not name any of them. This report is buried in the Red menace thread 1. Gurus here may know where that link is or may have saved it in their hard drives and if any names were released.
I will not be surprised if Scami Agniwaste was one of them.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by chetak »

Well played 8)

All the inside juice from Anna’s reality show

Sunetra Choudhury | Saturday, August 27, 2011

As the Anna Hazare situation looks like it’s drawing to a close, it’s perhaps a good time to confess. All of us in the media have been played. We’ve been played pretty well by Team Anna and what many of you didn’tprobably know is that those orchestrating the drama surrounding the 74-year-old are from our own fraternity.

Like Shazia Ilmi, who has popped up on your TV screens as a representative of Team Anna just over the last week. A former colleague and anchor from Star News, Shazia has a masters in communication from the best film school in the country, Jamia Millia Islamia, alma mater to the likes of Shah Rukh Khan. Shazia hung up her anchoring jacket some time ago when she started working with Arvind Kejriwal and Prashant Bhushan, but she was just too good a TV person to not share some of her production skills with Team Anna. After all, it takes someone from a Hindi channel that made its name with a crime show called ‘Sansani’ to really make essential TV-viewing out of an elderly gent lying on stage. Or of watching Kiran Bedi swinging the Indian flag back and forth, or of watching just crowds of people hanging around Tihar jail.

Shazia didn’t do it herself. She is part of an entire crew of TV professionals that work to make Anna Hazare’s fast the best reality TV show in recent times.

There’s another ex-colleague called Abhinandan Sekri. Abhinandan was one of the people behind the hugely successful satiric show Gustaakhi Maaf that parodies politicians and a Fox Travel and History show ‘What’s with Indian Men?’. The irreverent streak obviously continues as Abhinandan forms part of the core group for Team Anna that also includes former TV producer Manish Sisodia and theatre director Arvind Gaur. When Anna is exhausted and away from centrestage, Gaur’s actors perform energetic street plays, which are a hit with the crowds. And the core team meets regularly to decide how to feed the daily beast of 24-hour news media.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Muppalla »

IndraD wrote: You are assuming that same caste & religious divide will be there for another 100 years to which I disagree, as our democracy matures , literacy improves and middle class expands we will see many changes over next 20 years. And these changes would be positive.
Do it when it happens. Not in the next two decades. All these fancy stuff like "Right to reject" or "right to call" could be good for later days at State and parl levels. It can go at Panchayat and district levels after a good decentralization of tax collection and funds. That way the development, anti-graft and accountabilty with some direct people involvement.

Once it matured and based on what's going on at local levels can be extended to State level and parliament level.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by RamaY »

Muppala garu, did you watch ANdhrajyothi's Youngistan program with CBN?

Youth India thinks all the problems can be fixed in a day or two and becomes impatient when someone suggests caution. It doesn't understand that any system has to evolve slowly using well designed feedback loops for it to be effective in long term.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by ramana »

Singha wrote:speaking of Soniaji, where exactly is she - new york or tuscany? and why such a longish absense?
Most likey neither. Reason is none of the family retainers, hangers-on in massa are whisperinng of audiences. Nor are any pictures or mementoes have emerged.

Most likely in Europe re-arranging affairs so if Lok Pal comes into effect can appear Surf clean.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Muppalla »

RamaY wrote:Muppala garu, did you watch ANdhrajyothi's Youngistan program with CBN?

Youth India thinks all the problems can be fixed in a day or two and becomes impatient when someone suggests caution. It doesn't understand that any system has to evolve slowly using well designed feedback loops for it to be effective in long term.
You see of lot of that on this forum too.

Onething that is totally unexplored is why not these break into the main political parties and change them from inside. Instead it is fancy for these to get on campaigns to change the country and blame all politicians. Why can't these folks stirr a movement to democratize the parties asking for real elections, primaries etc? May be they can dismiss/defeat Sonia, Advani etc by being part of the democratic process.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by asgkhan »

Salman Khurshid on Karan Thappar's 'Devil's advocate'.
We have made a error of judgement, not a mistake. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

We have lost ground, but are determined to make up for it.
Seriously, what is the difference between error of judgment and a mistake?
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by SwamyG »

Agnivesh should contact his mobile services company, request them to release the records and he can show it to the World. Zimple.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by shivajisisodia »

Muppalla wrote: Ramay Said - Muppala garu, did you watch ANdhrajyothi's Youngistan program with CBN?

Youth India thinks all the problems can be fixed in a day or two and becomes impatient when someone suggests caution. It doesn't understand that any system has to evolve slowly using well designed feedback loops for it to be effective in long term.

Mupalla says -

You see of lot of that on this forum too.

Onething that is totally unexplored is why not these break into the main political parties and change them from inside. Instead it is fancy for these to get on campaigns to change the country and blame all politicians. Why can't these folks stirr a movement to democratize the parties asking for real elections, primaries etc? May be they can dismiss/defeat Sonia, Advani etc by being part of the democratic process.

You see, Mupalla Sb and Ramay Sb, this is the crux of the difference in thinking between you and "Youth India", as you call it.
I am not "Youth India" at all, am actually much older, but I happen to share this impatience of Youth India and vehemently but respectfully disagree with you.

Telling the youth to change parties from within can only be suggested by someone who is living in "la la land". Here you just went through an episode where rank outsider led movements, first by Babaji and then by Ana Sab and company have failed to move any of the political parties, you are talking about change from within ? Who will allow anyone with sense to join and play even a minor role in any of these power drunk political parties today, leave aside allowing them room to bring about change. All the political parties do talk about "generational change" and "modernization" from time to time, but they only do it to usher in their new generation, which thinks exactly like the old generation. So, when Indira wanted to promote Rajiv, all this drama about "youth India" etc was played out then, but it was only done to push Rajiv forward and it turned out that Rajiv was no different from the old India. Same thing is being hyped up now with Rahul.

There may be some examples, but very few, of change coming anywhere from within. Most places, significant and meaningful change always comes via a revolution (violent or non-violent) or through some kind of external cataclysm. Even in the West, major shifts such as the reformation or the French revolution or the American revolution, occured very quickly and were led by rank outsiders, not insiders.

Frankly, you are being seriously misguided by all this talk of "incremental change" or "change from within", or "gradual change", which is really the empty slogans peddled by the pig politicians in power, who naturally want to lull people into inaction as they obviously dont want any change at all. By fooling the gullible public into thinking that "incremental change", "change from within" means something and is actually intended, these pigs are merely buying more time and space to continue to loot us and repress us. These politicians have been making many excuses for not making faster change since independence. First, it was, oh, we have just become independence, it will take time. Then, it was, we are a poor country, it wont happen in a day. Then, for decades, it was our excessive population which was blamed. "No matter how much development we politicians do, population outpaces al this development", they would lament. Now it turns out that population is a huge asset, both as a workforce and as a market. No one gives that excuse anymore. So, now the latest is, that "corruption" is an inevitable companion of 10% growth, and we must learn to live with it, until at some distant future, when we are all rich and have mercedes, it will go away miraculously, all by itself, without us having to work for it, hell, even without us having to think about it. Even Britain and the West had it, when they were in their growing phase. Sounds familiar ? Since I am from an older generation, I remember all these excuses and lies spread by these politicians over the decades, while they were robbing us blind for decades.

I respectfully urge you, not to be gullible yourself and if you insist on being gullible, at least try not to dampen the energy and the enthusiasm of our younger generation to seek fast change, their way and in through their own devices. Yours and my generations have had our chances, and we have failed miserably. If we cannot encourage them, let us not be old foggies, sitting on armchair and criticising the young, for no reason.

Existing political parties and system is like a building which has rotted to its foundation. It has no hope. No matter how much energy you throw into saving this building, its all going to go to waste. If you want to go on this futile path yourself, by all means go, but please, please dont send your and my future generations into this futile wild goose chase and ruin their lives too.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by BSR Murthy »

^^^
Excellent says this middle age person.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Can political activism be maintained on a sustained basis by the supposedly "young crowds" without becoming politicians. Politicians full time job is to indulge in political activism. Can part time youths really do it?
For now, it seems the political activism is being spear headed by a Gandhian of not so young generation and ex-babu who has retired.
what are the tangible gains from this movement to celebrate even pyrrhic victory?
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by csaurabh »

shivajisisodia wrote:
Muppalla wrote: Ramay Said - Muppala garu, did you watch ANdhrajyothi's Youngistan program with CBN?

Youth India thinks all the problems can be fixed in a day or two and becomes impatient when someone suggests caution. It doesn't understand that any system has to evolve slowly using well designed feedback loops for it to be effective in long term.

Mupalla says -

You see of lot of that on this forum too.

Onething that is totally unexplored is why not these break into the main political parties and change them from inside. Instead it is fancy for these to get on campaigns to change the country and blame all politicians. Why can't these folks stirr a movement to democratize the parties asking for real elections, primaries etc? May be they can dismiss/defeat Sonia, Advani etc by being part of the democratic process.

You see, Mupalla Sb and Ramay Sb, this is the crux of the difference in thinking between you and "Youth India", as you call it.
I am not "Youth India" at all, am actually much older, but I happen to share this impatience of Youth India and vehemently but respectfully disagree with you.

Telling the youth to change parties from within can only be suggested by someone who is living in "la la land". Here you just went through an episode where rank outsider led movements, first by Babaji and then by Ana Sab and company have failed to move any of the political parties, you are talking about change from within ? Who will allow anyone with sense to join and play even a minor role in any of these power drunk political parties today, leave aside allowing them room to bring about change. All the political parties do talk about "generational change" and "modernization" from time to time, but they only do it to usher in their new generation, which thinks exactly like the old generation. So, when Indira wanted to promote Rajiv, all this drama about "youth India" etc was played out then, but it was only done to push Rajiv forward and it turned out that Rajiv was no different from the old India. Same thing is being hyped up now with Rahul.

There may be some examples, but very few, of change coming anywhere from within. Most places, significant and meaningful change always comes via a revolution (violent or non-violent) or through some kind of external cataclysm. Even in the West, major shifts such as the reformation or the French revolution or the American revolution, occured very quickly and were led by rank outsiders, not insiders.

Frankly, you are being seriously misguided by all this talk of "incremental change" or "change from within", or "gradual change", which is really the empty slogans peddled by the pig politicians in power, who naturally want to lull people into inaction as they obviously dont want any change at all. By fooling the gullible public into thinking that "incremental change", "change from within" means something and is actually intended, these pigs are merely buying more time and space to continue to loot us and repress us. These politicians have been making many excuses for not making faster change since independence. First, it was, oh, we have just become independence, it will take time. Then, it was, we are a poor country, it wont happen in a day. Then, for decades, it was our excessive population which was blamed. "No matter how much development we politicians do, population outpaces al this development", they would lament. Now it turns out that population is a huge asset, both as a workforce and as a market. No one gives that excuse anymore. So, now the latest is, that "corruption" is an inevitable companion of 10% growth, and we must learn to live with it, until at some distant future, when we are all rich and have mercedes, it will go away miraculously, all by itself, without us having to work for it, hell, even without us having to think about it. Even Britain and the West had it, when they were in their growing phase. Sounds familiar ? Since I am from an older generation, I remember all these excuses and lies spread by these politicians over the decades, while they were robbing us blind for decades.

I respectfully urge you, not to be gullible yourself and if you insist on being gullible, at least try not to dampen the energy and the enthusiasm of our younger generation to seek fast change, their way and in through their own devices. Yours and my generations have had our chances, and we have failed miserably. If we cannot encourage them, let us not be old foggies, sitting on armchair and criticising the young, for no reason.

Existing political parties and system is like a building which has rotted to its foundation. It has no hope. No matter how much energy you throw into saving this building, its all going to go to waste. If you want to go on this futile path yourself, by all means go, but please, please dont send your and my future generations into this futile wild goose chase and ruin their lives too.
Well said, but we must not fall into the congress claptrap thinking that all parties/politicians = bad
'All politicians are corrupt' is just a congress strategy to discourage middle class from voting.
If Congress is 90% corrupt and BJP is 10% corrupt I will vote for BJP simple as that.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by IndraD »

Thanks sivajisisodia for a lovely post.
Last edited by IndraD on 28 Aug 2011 22:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by shivajisisodia »

JwalaMukhi wrote:Can political activism be maintained on a sustained basis by the supposedly "young crowds" without becoming politicians. Politicians full time job is to indulge in political activism. Can part time youths really do it?
For now, it seems the political activism is being spear headed by a Gandhian of not so young generation and ex-babu who has retired.
what are the tangible gains from this movement to celebrate even pyrrhic victory?
I am not against the younger generation becoming political and some even becoming politicians. I never opposed that in my post. All I was saying was that to ask them to join existing political parties and work within the existing setup, may be a mistake and would lead to nothing but "more of the same".

Perhaps, they can revolt, create a new leaner, more modern, more creative and innovative system, by cleansing the system of all the excess and toxic baggage that it has accumulated over the ages, and then of course, as part of that, create a brand new political process, which is more relevent and applicable to meeting our challenges of today in a more meaningful way. In such a system, naturally, some of the younger people will become politicians, some even bureaucrats. Nothing wrong with that.

The only tangible victory, I can see in this whole Ana Sab movement is that younger people have realized that they have power and that they can, if they try real hard, and organize themselves well, they can even bring about a revolution. There is another tangible victory. Before this movement, the middle class was kind of ambivalent to the problem of corruption or resigned to it, buying into the notion that corruption is like "air", it will always be with us in India and that any fight against it is useless. Well, it has changed that notion in the minds of the middle class a little bit. So, while I agree that, even though, the best possible Lok Pal bill will probably not make much of a direct dent in corruption, the hope and the mindset change among the young and the middle class is definitely no mean feat and tangible victories.

Please note that I am being very conservative in what I think the gains are. I am not as euphoric about the possible direct benefits of the Lok Pal bill per se.
Last edited by shivajisisodia on 28 Aug 2011 22:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by IndraD »

Never ready Rahul Gandhi
In Sonia Gandhi's absence, Rahul Gandhi's role at the helm of party affairs has been largely ceremonial. On August 20, he presided over the Rajiv Gandhi Sadbhavana awards and later over Praja Rajyam Party's merger with the Congress in Delhi. When asked to comment on the Anna Hazare episode, he dodged the media. His party too has no clue what its young leader is thinking. Though he has been attending Parliament, he prefers to sit in the back bench, slipping in and out of the Prime Minister's room before critical decisions, such as Manmohan Singh's letter to Hazare. On one occasion, he told the media that he was "concerned about Hazare's health.

Speaking on Hazare's arrest, JD(U) MP Sharad Yadav recalled how Indira Gandhi had given in to Morarji Desai's three-day fast to force fresh elections in Gujarat in 1974. "You are not bigger than Indiraji," he told the treasury benches. Was Rahul listening? This was a crisis crying out for a leader with imagination and gumption.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 49234.html

what an irony during the whole crisis the four members who were supposed to take crucial decision in absence of SG didn't meet even once (India Today)
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by KLNMurthy »

Pranav wrote:
This is the reason why the Hinduism-suppressing elite see AH as an enemy.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Muppalla »

Please help me understand the fancy theory called "Right to Reject" will help the cause of anti-corruption or any such worthy causes? I am dumber than this youngistan so please educate me.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Rahul M »

right to reject is simply a demand to simplify utilization of 49-O by putting a none of the above option in the EVMs. read this http://eci.nic.in/eci_main/press/current/pn051208.pdf
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by RamaY »

Sivajisisodiaji,

Demand for a well thought process doesn't mean we have to stick with existing political structures. I differ slightly from Muppala Garu on this. We do need fresh thought into the political system like BJP, Laloos, Mulayams, Mayavatis, NTR, Nitish, Modi, ULFA and so on periodically. In that sense today's BRs and AH are need of the hour.

On the other hand the JLP is a demand for change in the governance system, not political system. AH's call for clean politics is different from JLP if you see who/what/how is impacted by the JLP.

On it's own JLP would curtail systemic corruption to some extent, depending on how independent and accountable it can remain and how much authority and help it gets w.r.t the other governance bodies. Let's hope for the best.

That is why AH is calling for a nationwide movement for RtReject/Recall, as a next step to JLP. Even this is necessary. Please look at the questions, loopholes on w.r.t RTR legislation in the discussion people had with Rahul Mehta. It is a very important law if can be implemented properly.

No one is undermining or rejecting AH's movement. I (I think Muppalagaru too) are cautioning on the unintended consequences. For example this agitation brought out new social/political fault lines, such as Dalitistan, Minorities, Christian organization etc, by INC. For more details pls visit future scenarios thread.

We need to ensure that the nationalistic leadership is well prepared and equipped to handle any divisive tactics expected from the ruling elite (2G group). From experience we knew that MKG and other freedom fighters were duped in pre-1947 india causing partition (cost - 2+ million deaths, cross-border terrorism, ~2% penalty on GDP growth etc). We don't want today's AHs and BRs face similar challenges. We can already see the calls by various organizations against JLP and demands for reservation in these bodies. The picture that a Muslim-Dalit girl (what is it BTW?) giving lemon juice to AH shows the state of national cohession today.

If it makes you feel better, Muppala garu (I can vouch for him) and I will be the first people to call the dissolution of INC as a political party and banning 2Gs from india.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by a_bharat »

Rahul M wrote:right to reject is simply a demand to simplify utilization of 49-O by putting a none of the above option in the EVMs. read this http://eci.nic.in/eci_main/press/current/pn051208.pdf
I think it is more than that; if "reject all" has more votes, then there has to be a re-poll.

If all the earlier candidates are barred in the re-poll, it may help in getting better candidates from the parties.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Chinmayanand »

RamaY wrote: If it makes you feel better, Muppala garu (I can vouch for him) and I will be the first people to call the dissolution of INC as a political party and banning 2Gs from india.
One of my friends is eagerly waiting for the day when the 2G's and 2V's have to run from this country in the middle of the night to save their skin.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Rahul M »

a_bharat wrote:
Rahul M wrote:right to reject is simply a demand to simplify utilization of 49-O by putting a none of the above option in the EVMs. read this http://eci.nic.in/eci_main/press/current/pn051208.pdf
I think it is more than that; if "reject all" has more votes, then there has to be a re-poll.

If all the earlier candidates are barred in the re-poll, it may help in getting better candidates from the parties.
is there a formal draft on this anywhere ?
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Prem »

Chinmayanand wrote:
RamaY wrote: If it makes you feel better, Muppala garu (I can vouch for him) and I will be the first people to call the dissolution of INC as a political party and banning 2Gs from india.
One of my friends is eagerly waiting for the day when the 2G's and 2V's have to run from this country in the middle of the night to save their skin.
Are you saying their skin dont belongs to India. Its very much a indian property just like the stashed money overseas.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Muppalla »

Rahul M wrote:right to reject is simply a demand to simplify utilization of 49-O by putting a none of the above option in the EVMs. read this http://eci.nic.in/eci_main/press/current/pn051208.pdf
a_bharat wrote: I think it is more than that; if "reject all" has more votes, then there has to be a re-poll.

If all the earlier candidates are barred in the re-poll, it may help in getting better candidates from the parties.
I guess I understand that much. So what is the end goal? Again I am afraid this is another lofty idea where the one who is proposing this thinks that all the voters are thinking like him and exactly like him.

What is the chance that "reject all" getting more votes than any candidate? It is an assumption that in a democracy there will be ZERO vested interests and community/religion based voters? The country has to be zero diverse and all votes have to be just development and no other interests in this idea has to succeed. Even if a portion of the voters think that this fellow is good for our caste and we have to vote for him what will happen to all the "reject all" votes in that constituency? What if that fellow is extremely dirty character and his community is big but not greater than 50% of voters in a constituency? His community will vote for him and the "smarter rest" will either sit at home or vote "I hate him yaar. you know yaar". Now instead of trying to defeat this crook you will help him winning. Not just this and he can influence a section to vote "I hate him yaar".

To me this is totally bakwaas. O ho yongistan!!!, please help this dhimmi soul to understand what is this idea and how it can help India's electoral system. I am lost.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by heyrtu »

Azaadi ka jashn , azaadi ka jashn !

Ye kya ho raha hai humaare desh ko ? I am very disheartened by the way congress and other UPA sub-parties are treating ANNA !

Bhot accha laga ki ye 3 sharte kuch sub-conditions ke saath parliament se paas hui , par ANNA HAzaare,Kiran Bedi or anek mahan vyakti , kya ye deserve karte hai ki apna lokpal paas karwaane ke liye un kameene bhrashtachario ke saath bethe ?

Lalu prasaad jo khud chaara ghotaala or pata nahi kitne ghotaale main fansa hua hai kya Anna us insaan ke baraabar main bethkar lokpal ke liye prastaav rakhnge ?

Kya Amar singh jaise log jo bipasha basu ke saath apni taps announce karte hai , aise logo ke saath humaare ANNA ko bethna padega !

I would have been happy if the crowd on India Gate had protested to remove those people from standing comity.

I am very patriotic person but disheartened from the way our country is being ruled :(
Please correct me if i am at wrong side !

I am asked what i have done to remove corruption , i say being an engineer of INDIA , i created a website for Rajasthan Technical University Students who faces too much corruption due to the university.
Students are tortured by the university and when i visited the university i found that the pareeksha bhawan which is the office of RTU Kota which governs 125 colleges and 16 lakh students / 6 months , was filled with gallis. Everywhere it was written that , paise ke bhookho and all !

I was so disturbed with all that and i took an oath that i'll bring all the students together and fight against corruption.
That is why i created Hey RTU :http://www.heyrtu.com and i am proud of the fact that within 4 months , university has changed a lot !

A small effort from me has impacted university to great extent and i feel good to do something good.

But what is the youth doing.I want all the youth to vote for an educated and non corrupt leaders , don't watch the Congress or BJP , just remember the blood of Shaheeds who have left their families for ever for our country.

Be a responsible Citizen !


JAI HIND , JAI BHARAT
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Muppalla »

RamaY wrote:Sivajisisodiaji,

Demand for a well thought process doesn't mean we have to stick with existing political structures. I differ slightly from Muppala Garu on this. We do need fresh thought into the political system like BJP, Laloos, Mulayams, Mayavatis, NTR, Nitish, Modi, ULFA and so on periodically. In that sense today's BRs and AH are need of the hour.

On the other hand the JLP is a demand for change in the governance system, not political system. AH's call for clean politics is different from JLP if you see who/what/how is impacted by the JLP.

On it's own JLP would curtail systemic corruption to some extent, depending on how independent and accountable it can remain and how much authority and help it gets w.r.t the other governance bodies. Let's hope for the best.

That is why AH is calling for a nationwide movement for RtReject/Recall, as a next step to JLP. Even this is necessary. Please look at the questions, loopholes on w.r.t RTR legislation in the discussion people had with Rahul Mehta. It is a very important law if can be implemented properly.

No one is undermining or rejecting AH's movement. I (I think Muppalagaru too) are cautioning on the unintended consequences. For example this agitation brought out new social/political fault lines, such as Dalitistan, Minorities, Christian organization etc, by INC. For more details pls visit future scenarios thread.

We need to ensure that the nationalistic leadership is well prepared and equipped to handle any divisive tactics expected from the ruling elite (2G group). From experience we knew that MKG and other freedom fighters were duped in pre-1947 india causing partition (cost - 2+ million deaths, cross-border terrorism, ~2% penalty on GDP growth etc). We don't want today's AHs and BRs face similar challenges. We can already see the calls by various organizations against JLP and demands for reservation in these bodies. The picture that a Muslim-Dalit girl (what is it BTW?) giving lemon juice to AH shows the state of national cohession today.

If it makes you feel better, Muppala garu (I can vouch for him) and I will be the first people to call the dissolution of INC as a political party and banning 2Gs from india.
I totally agree with this post. In the hatred for political system, we are trying for some changes in haste and basking the glory of greatness of youngistan.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Mahendra »

[youtube]6LRkijwTCfQ&feature=related[/youtube]

It seems this Scami Agniwaste has been roughed up in the past for controversial comments.

The pagdi the charlatan wears is to cover up his hair loss
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by SaiK »

responsible citizens can boycott using products that is suspected to be involved in corruption. for example, don't buy corrupted companies products. Now this means resisting the urge to aid corruption that is very strong, just like AH's satyagrah did.

don't buy 2g products.. now the terror groups will be making counter moves to attract you with more offers.. resist the urge to support corruption. for example, we see many here like bribing the customs afsar with whiskey bottle to smuggle a product in. now, the other way to tackle the same is have policies such that the same product is available locally with no additional cost, and with better service.

this is just one such loop hole.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by brihaspati »

Rahul M wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Socialism and market driven economy can onlee function under dictatorships, and that too for a limited amount of time. No problem if anyone wants to go for that for India. But will have to accept some form of dictatorship in the process. Are we ready for that? AH had to become dictatorial [paternalistic/authoritarian/communitarian whatever] to manage both.

Provision of public goods and allowing incentives via market forces, never sit easy together.
you lost me there. I was not talking of more socialism at the national level, beyond what is already there in niches, public ownership of railways for example. a technical discourse of what constitutes market socialism and what does not is irrelevant to us, our system has many socialist characteristics and shares many objectives with socialist systems. India is, as per the constitution, a socialist country. but it is in a category by itself not matching that of china or vietnam.
people expect the govt to work for public welfare especially in health, education etc. call it socialism if you want or don't. these aspects are also present in western democracies.

what is needed is development of rural India, anything that works should be used and encouraged, whether it is AH's socialism or something else. as long as the basic structure of the gram sabha is kept intact it is entirely upto the respective villagers to decide how to govern themselves. lastly, AH's model seems quite similar to the kibbutz model you were advocating sometime back. :wink:
I meant the old problem in economics of the "free-rider" issue. Provision of "public goods/social welfare" creates the issue of incentive for generating enough surplus to support social-welfare. OT though.

But more relevant : is when AH is mobilizing, he is using an underlying unstated religious commitment from the particular population too - which are communitarian. Maha is a peculiar mix of long communitarian traditions cutting across so-called typical divisions from a variety of historical factors. I am not that aware of the particualr historical sociological dynamic of his village. But I would expect intergroup connections to be not that antagonistic and at par with intragroup connections, not very strong political party penetration, and not very lucrative to start with as an "economy".

The reason behind his type of agitation's success in regional and subgroup terms, while failing long term and nationally [just as in MKG] - is that the mobilization is value based, which are identified or perceived to be from a particular religion. Entrenched interests always use this to divide up the population on existing created identity divisions against this religious communitarianism.

Kibbutz is based on a certain ethno-faith identity, whose ethnic component is so strong that it can even allow some degree of flexibility on the faith bit. When they started they took up arms to defend their communes, and they ran it right from the beginning as mini-nations which had the right to choose entrants. AH's model will have difficulties - if the identity-ideology homogeneity bit is absent, and the gram-sabhas will not be enough, because the community cannot really choose who is taken in and who not.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Manish_Sharma »

SaiK wrote:responsible citizens can boycott using products that is suspected to be involved in corruption. for example, don't buy corrupted companies products. Now this means resisting the urge to aid corruption that is very strong, just like AH's satyagrah did.

don't buy 2g products.. now the terror groups will be making counter moves to attract you with more offers.. resist the urge to support corruption. for example, we see many here like bribing the customs afsar with whiskey bottle to smuggle a product in. now, the other way to tackle the same is have policies such that the same product is available locally with no additional cost, and with better service.

this is just one such loop hole.
Once I met a swede visiting first time India, she remarked "I see TATA everywhere", I asked why are you surprised. She proceeded to tell me that in Sweden too there are many companies making lots of different products but they'll always have different names, 'cause if one product is caught in dishonesty then the name gets so tainted that people stop buying any product with that name. So for sake of security they always produce and sell under different names.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by brihaspati »

shivajisisodia wrote: Telling the youth to change parties from within can only be suggested by someone who is living in "la la land". Here you just went through an episode where rank outsider led movements, first by Babaji and then by Ana Sab and company have failed to move any of the political parties, you are talking about change from within ? Who will allow anyone with sense to join and play even a minor role in any of these power drunk political parties today, leave aside allowing them room to bring about change. All the political parties do talk about "generational change" and "modernization" from time to time, but they only do it to usher in their new generation, which thinks exactly like the old generation. So, when Indira wanted to promote Rajiv, all this drama about "youth India" etc was played out then, but it was only done to push Rajiv forward and it turned out that Rajiv was no different from the old India. Same thing is being hyped up now with Rahul.
Very true. The parties are structured in a way that only those who can be mosahibs will get promoted. But you know why? the reason why this happens - is actually democracy. Sounds contradictory? Not at all.

Wherever an organization needs to sustain itself long-term [you cannot be in a permanent revolution all the time - Trotsky theorized and was wiped off], you cannot rely on a permanent mobilization of large number of people. Which means you need to attract and hold a dedicated group which will stick to the org issue or no issue. If the political culture requires or sees strength in numbers - then within the party, leaders will need followers in numbers in their internal fight for power over their peers. This means, democratic structural influence in politics makes leaders look for greater numbers within the party for their personal following.

The catch is that if new recruits are for intra-party struggle for power, then the best such recruit is one who has weaknesses - that makes the recruit dependent on the leader, and in a bind to support the leader in intra-party struggles. Therefore each leader will increasingly bring in followers with increasing "weaknesses" at each level - and we will have a hierarchy of leadership that has increasing levels of "weaknesses" as we go down the levels, and over time.

The same also happens to dynastic ones - because, the dynastic scions may also feel threatened by talent and seek to remove or suppress talented organizers.

To a certain extent only a directly elected dictator or authoritarian, limited in number of consecutive terms - perhaps is the best compromise, but also needs strong barriers against partisan politics, and strong independent complaints investigating institutions to prevent the rashtryia apparatus - especially the armed and coercive wings, to act as a "party" anyway under the influence of the authoritarian.

Basically this is what is happening. AH is becoming a subconscious experiment in society to direct democracy - with a single authoritarian being "voted" to power. Note that neither MKG nor AH are democratic in their operations.
There may be some examples, but very few, of change coming anywhere from within. Most places, significant and meaningful change always comes via a revolution (violent or non-violent) or through some kind of external cataclysm. Even in the West, major shifts such as the reformation or the French revolution or the American revolution, occured very quickly and were led by rank outsiders, not insiders.
Not actually - both had long preparations by an elite dissenting faction. Jacobins in the French case, and landowner-entreprenur-legal luminaries in the American case. Revolutions are always manifestations of elite dissent and intra-elite factional infighting where a dissenting faction is able to use some popular discontent to ride to supreme power.
Frankly, you are being seriously misguided by all this talk of "incremental change" or "change from within", or "gradual change", which is really the empty slogans peddled by the pig politicians in power, who naturally want to lull people into inaction as they obviously dont want any change at all. By fooling the gullible public into thinking that "incremental change", "change from within" means something and is actually intended, these pigs are merely buying more time and space to continue to loot us and repress us. These politicians have been making many excuses for not making faster change since independence. First, it was, oh, we have just become independence, it will take time. Then, it was, we are a poor country, it wont happen in a day. Then, for decades, it was our excessive population which was blamed. "No matter how much development we politicians do, population outpaces al this development", they would lament. Now it turns out that population is a huge asset, both as a workforce and as a market. No one gives that excuse anymore. So, now the latest is, that "corruption" is an inevitable companion of 10% growth, and we must learn to live with it, until at some distant future, when we are all rich and have mercedes, it will go away miraculously, all by itself, without us having to work for it, hell, even without us having to think about it. Even Britain and the West had it, when they were in their growing phase. Sounds familiar ? Since I am from an older generation, I remember all these excuses and lies spread by these politicians over the decades, while they were robbing us blind for decades.
Actually the "youth" you are so hopeful about will come to the same conclusions in one generational time - roughly 30 years from now.
I respectfully urge you, not to be gullible yourself and if you insist on being gullible, at least try not to dampen the energy and the enthusiasm of our younger generation to seek fast change, their way and in through their own devices. Yours and my generations have had our chances, and we have failed miserably. If we cannot encourage them, let us not be old foggies, sitting on armchair and criticising the young, for no reason.
Yes, I agree with your spirit. But at the same time note that this experiment in "direct democracy" is not new in India, and was done with MKG before. The long term consequence was disillusionment as you are showing. It is not enough to rebel. The long terms goals and values need to be clear.

I am rather intrigued by a revolutionary "youth" which failed to ignite on 26/11 and went WKK, and which we are supposed to pin our hopes on for systemic changes? Maybe yes the "youth" overall, but not the section that onlee reacts to "corruption".
Existing political parties and system is like a building which has rotted to its foundation. It has no hope. No matter how much energy you throw into saving this building, its all going to go to waste. If you want to go on this futile path yourself, by all means go, but please, please dont send your and my future generations into this futile wild goose chase and ruin their lives too.
[/quote]

I would like to be cautious in encouraging the "youth". I still am torn inside from time to time when I recall my own failure to turn away certain youth from the extreme Left road, and most of whom I know to have already been eliminated.

I would be rather crude in saying that any call for a revolution that also does not give a concrete plan for not duping the very same youth - is a surefire another elite factional call for personal power. A revolution takes away our finest, the most dedicated, the most selfless - leaving the surviving society richer in opportunists, self-servers, and more of the rotten eggs. The Independence movement cleared away generations of such dedicated people leaving us with the wily "survivors". We all are reaping the harvest.

If you cannot or do not have a plan for securing the "spirit", the best of our future generations - not in money-spinning genius terms, but the values of community-nation-commitment-spirit terms - it is irresponsible and plain emotionalism to raise the "revolutionary" pitch.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by uddu »

Muppalla wrote:
Rahul M wrote:right to reject is simply a demand to simplify utilization of 49-O by putting a none of the above option in the EVMs. read this http://eci.nic.in/eci_main/press/current/pn051208.pdf
a_bharat wrote: I think it is more than that; if "reject all" has more votes, then there has to be a re-poll.

If all the earlier candidates are barred in the re-poll, it may help in getting better candidates from the parties.
I guess I understand that much. So what is the end goal? Again I am afraid this is another lofty idea where the one who is proposing this thinks that all the voters are thinking like him and exactly like him.

What is the chance that "reject all" getting more votes than any candidate? It is an assumption that in a democracy there will be ZERO vested interests and community/religion based voters? The country has to be zero diverse and all votes have to be just development and no other interests in this idea has to succeed. Even if a portion of the voters think that this fellow is good for our caste and we have to vote for him what will happen to all the "reject all" votes in that constituency? What if that fellow is extremely dirty character and his community is big but not greater than 50% of voters in a constituency? His community will vote for him and the "smarter rest" will either sit at home or vote "I hate him yaar. you know yaar". Now instead of trying to defeat this crook you will help him winning. Not just this and he can influence a section to vote "I hate him yaar".

To me this is totally bakwaas. O ho yongistan!!!, please help this dhimmi soul to understand what is this idea and how it can help India's electoral system. I am lost.
Now, seats are sold to the highest bidder by most of the parties. So most of them on the list are either criminals or corrupt. What's left for the voter is to choose the least chor amoung them. This will change when the option of Na pasandi is on the list. And it's a legitimate right of the voter. If he/she don't like anyone on the list then he will choose that option. So inorder to win, the parties will have to field good candidates. The better the candidate the better the chance of winning. It will reach that state. So this is not only a right of a voter but a good thing to happen.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Muppalla »

brihaspati wrote:I would be rather crude in saying that any call for a revolution that also does not give a concrete plan for not duping the very same youth - is a surefire another elite factional call for personal power. A revolution takes away our finest, the most dedicated, the most selfless - leaving the surviving society richer in opportunists, self-servers, and more of the rotten eggs. The Independence movement cleared away generations of such dedicated people leaving us with the wily "survivors". We all are reaping the harvest.

If you cannot or do not have a plan for securing the "spirit", the best of our future generations - not in money-spinning genius terms, but the values of community-nation-commitment-spirit terms - it is irresponsible and plain emotionalism to raise the "revolutionary" pitch.
My age group participated in anti-Mandal agitation of the time. It was as big as what we are seeing today minus internet. There are several self-immolation deaths across the nation and specifically in north India. That time it was a real big deal for teens to get into good college and reservations used to be a real hindrance for the smart ones.

Every political party worth its salt expressed sympathies to the death and privately encouraged the agitation. The nation is psychologically divided. A lot of urban lives like me who does not know a lot about caste have suddenly started to know what is caste and the divisions of society.

Inspite of all the agitation, hype etc., when PVNR government passed the reservations the energies of the youth was lost and they have finally given up to the political will of the nation.

It is another agitation where youth is used in the chess game of the politics of that time. When I was a small kid there was another youthful generation that caught up in the anti-emergency agitations and also naxal/socialist agitations.

Except for the independence movement, all other times it was the youth who really lost in the chess-games.

There are several broken families in all these directionless agitations. No one has a count today of the moms and dads who may have been depressed due to the loss of their kids in the self-immolations. What was the achievement of their kids and what is that the parents could be proud for the loss of their children? zero.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by SaiK »

Perhaps should be part of history books for kids of the future. One can't let that to be zero. Bring out the facts, and make articles.. slowly get articles approved by the education department, and then into text books.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by sumishi »

Muppalla wrote:
Rahul M wrote:right to reject is simply a demand to simplify utilization of 49-O by putting a none of the above option in the EVMs. read this http://eci.nic.in/eci_main/press/current/pn051208.pdf
a_bharat wrote: I think it is more than that; if "reject all" has more votes, then there has to be a re-poll.

If all the earlier candidates are barred in the re-poll, it may help in getting better candidates from the parties.
...
What is the chance that "reject all" getting more votes than any candidate? It is an assumption that in a democracy there will be ZERO vested interests and community/religion based voters? The country has to be zero diverse and all votes have to be just development and no other interests in this idea has to succeed. Even if a portion of the voters think that this fellow is good for our caste and we have to vote for him what will happen to all the "reject all" votes in that constituency? What if that fellow is extremely dirty character and his community is big but not greater than 50% of voters in a constituency? His community will vote for him and the "smarter rest" will either sit at home or vote "I hate him yaar. you know yaar". Now instead of trying to defeat this crook you will help him winning. Not just this and he can influence a section to vote "I hate him yaar".
...
How about -- choosing the "reject all" option applies a negative vole to "all of the above" candidates? :mrgreen:
Last edited by sumishi on 29 Aug 2011 07:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Muppalla »

uddu wrote:Now, seats are sold to the highest bidder by most of the parties. So most of them on the list are either criminals or corrupt. What's left for the voter is to choose the least chor amoung them. This will change when the option of Na pasandi is on the list. And it's a legitimate right of the voter. If he/she don't like anyone on the list then he will choose that option. So inorder to win, the parties will have to field good candidates. The better the candidate the better the chance of winning. It will reach that state. So this is not only a right of a voter but a good thing to happen.
You still did not explain me so that I can lose my dhimminess on this topic :)

I give an example and help me understand:


Mumbai North West constituency - Substantial Muslim and Dalits along with IT Vty (Anna's buddies) crowd.

Candidates - Dawood Ibrahim (INC), Uddav Thakkarey (Shiv Sena)

total votes = 100
Muslims = 30 - 80% voted - 24 votes and all voted to congress. None of them used "I hate all candidate yaar vote"
Dalits = 30 - 60% voted - 18 voted - 12 voted to congress and 6 voted to Shiv Sena
ITVty (u know yaar, I swear Anna is great crowd) = 40 - 90% voted -36 votes - These generally does not come out and vote but these guys are lot enthusiastic with "I hate all" stuff. However there are about 10 dhimmi Muppallas who think Uddav Thakkarey is better than Dawood and voted Shiv Sena. Dawood is a known criminal and the money he used is fake money printed by ISI but CEC Chawla does not find any fault even after RTI activists found incrimination evidence. Uddav Thakkery to compete with Raj Thakkarey made not allowing North and South Indians from Mumbai's government jobs as a priority though Raj Thakkarey actually wants to wipe them out. Looking at the poor choice of candidates, 26 voted to "I hate all yaar".

Final tally -
INC = 24+12 = 36
Shiv Sena = 10 +6 = 16
I hate everyone = 26

Yaaaaahooooo - The greatness of youngistan led to Dawood Ibrahim's win. Dhimmi Muppallas still think that Uddav may be a better choice in the circumstances but "I hate everyone" looked so cool to some. Had they voted to Uddav he may have got 42 and defeated Dawood.

I am still the Dhimmi and lost :( . I hope someone helps me in understanding this "Reject all" votes.

Actually if I am congressman, I will meet 2G, MMS and NAC folks to immediately accept Anna's request of "right to reject" votes. I will conduct a dharna so that my God of Gods Shri Rahul Gandhi can easily become PM.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by Virupaksha »

if people cant decide who they can vote in a field of 10 in their own constituency, they arent fit to vote. -- all IMHO ofcourse.
If people cant decide what is in their interests, how the hell can they say with a straight face that it is in India's interests.

People might want to note the history of 1920s when Gandhi tried the same trick with the public. The Indian public shafted him into wilderness and went with CR Das.
Gandhi was in wilderness after that until CR Das and Lala lajpat Rai died.
Last edited by Virupaksha on 29 Aug 2011 07:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by RamaY »

Muppala garu,

Votes required to win will be even lesser than today if you consider the large number of candidates (minimum 5-6 candidates in a constituency).

On the other hand the "right to recall" could be of better use, given politician's reluctance to face elections frequently. But on the other hand it could increase the need to earn more thru corruption.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by sumishi »

[OT] Since I joined BRF, my india-centric worldview has expanded, and I have realized that technical education, which I have had, is so much crap-ia-cola :-? as far as holistically viewing the entire gamut of civilization/culture/society is considered.
Diggaj bhaisaabs/ behenjees, can you people list some important books in "liberal arts" (DE suggestion included) which I can pursue to reduce my blunderstanding :(( and build some solid foundation for a wholesome view.
I ask this here because this thread is getting the most "hits".
Thanks in advance. :)
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Post by RamaY »

Virupaksha wrote:if people cant decide who they can vote in a field of 10 in their own constituency, they arent fit to vote. -- all IMHO ofcourse.
That is exactly what people are doing for the past 60yrs leading to current situation.

The REAL problem is people's narrow mindedness to vote on caste/religion basis and for short term benefits.

How to change this?

Another issue is media. How to control media's activism in showing the nationalistic leadership in -ve light?

Today's secularism is only good for being anti-Hindu and pro-minoritism (especially pro-Christianity). Then isn't it correct to say secularism is nothing but Christianity without church?
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